I have 3 5970s on the way; now what?

[Proofer]

I've ordered three ATI HD 5970s.

I do software, especially low-level optimization; hardware, not so much.  I'm in this project for the software thrills.

I've spent a lot of time in these Forums in the past five or six days.  I was influenced in my 5970s buy by DeathAndTaxes's discussion of the GPU and rigs.

Any kind soul(s) want to suggest the next focus of my attention?  Motherboard?  Case?  Would it be feasible to assemble a partial parts list (motherboard, PSU, ...) and then call a custom systems builder to supply a rig?

[1715372576]

1715372576

[1715372576]

1715372576

[1715372576]

1715372576

[Unacceptable]

Build em yourself.You got a copy of XP or Win7??? You can even use a flash drive instead of a hardrive if you can figure out Linux(I have no clue about Linux myself ).

You can either build 3 small rigs for about $140 each,dual core AMD cpu($50),mini atx mobo($30),no less than a 600watt powersupply($40)for single 5970,1 gig DDR3 ram($20),use an old hardrive you got laying around.

Or 1 large rig for about $600,1500 watt powersupply for 3 5970's($275 or so),3 slot PCIE 16x mobo($250),same cpu & ram.

I have crossfire 6970's & they along with my AMD965 quad core & 8 gigs of ram & 3 extra fans for cooling the vid cards uses 740 watts.Always have an extra 200 watts over what you may need & you can't go wrong.

I'm sure some folks will recommend specific mobos in later posts.

[Mousepotato]

Run an open-air rig.  No case.  Those 5970s get way hot when they're sitting right next to each other in a case.  Plus it's cheaper to go caseless

[likuidxd]

It can be done a lot cheaper than, for the rest of the parts, than what Unacceptable is saying. A 1000 watt psu is all you'll really need with an AMD sempron 145 and a MSI GD70 (just in case you want to expand later) and 1g of ram. Buy Used!

The PSU is going to be your largest investment, besides the GPU(s) and will run around $200 +/- $50 depending upon what you want, maybe less now. I know RandyFolds had a 1350W for sale a bit ago.

I have a GD70 with a seated sargas 145 and 1g of ram I'll sell you for 150 + s/h if you'd like as well.

I do recommend PCIe extensions because 5970's get very hot! Cablesaurus will get you there, don't buy used ones.

Everything after that is fairly plug in and go, especially if you go dedicated rig with a persistent LinuxCoin or BAMT USB. I'd recommend BAMT, it's much faster and easier to set up a rig that turns on and goes.

If you have anymore questions or need some help send me a pm.

[jamesg]

I would recommend you do something like this:



These are a couple of rigs I have running. PM me if you would like some details.

[likuidxd]

I would recommend you do something like this:

These are a couple of rigs I have running. PM me if you would like some details.

You move out of the dc or you have some at home too?

[Proofer]

Build em yourself.You got a copy of XP or Win7??? You can even use a flash drive instead of a hardrive if you can figure out Linux(I have no clue about Linux myself ).

System software is still an open question.  I am going to want to get into the GPU software at a low level just to make sure I won't have any ideas to speed it up, so I think I'm going to want to run AMD's SDK, which is either Win7 or Linux.  Right now my only development system is a MacBook Pro on which I run, in addition to Mac OS, Win7 via virtualization.  I could also run Linux the same way, but am not currently.

You can either build 3 small rigs for about $140 each,dual core AMD cpu($50),mini atx mobo($30),no less than a 600watt powersupply($40)for single 5970,1 gig DDR3 ram($20),use an old hardrive you got laying around.

Or 1 large rig for about $600,1500 watt powersupply for 3 5970's($275 or so),3 slot PCIE 16x mobo($250),same cpu & ram.

Definitely one rig containing the three cards.  Based on what I've read and seen on these Forums I'm pretty sure that can be done by separating the cards (with empty slots between) in a closed case with lots of airflow.  But I don't require a closed case.

[Proofer]

Run an open-air rig.  No case.  Those 5970s get way hot when they're sitting right next to each other in a case.  Plus it's cheaper to go caseless

Open is OK, but I'd prefer a chassis so the rig can be moved as a unit.

[likuidxd]

Right now my only development system is a MacBook Pro

Really?! What kind of development do you do, web?

You move out of the dc or you have some at home too?

Open air rigs are still portable, I move mine around fairly frequently.

[Proofer]

Right now my only development system is a MacBook Pro

Really?! What kind of development do you do, web?

I'm not doing much currently, which is one of the attractions of mining software: a new challenge.  I'm sorta retired after a career in SW development of all kinds, many languages, OSs, etc.

...
Open air rigs are still portable, I move mine around fairly frequently.

I'm open-minded about open-air.  I like the idea of a chassis if it doesn't turn out to add silly expense or inconvenience.

[likuidxd]

I'm open-minded about open-air.  I like the idea of a chassis if it doesn't turn out to add silly expense or inconvenience.

Unfortunately, with 3 or 4 GPU's you'll need a E-AXT, XL-AXT or HPTX. All of which are expensive boards and enclosing them is equally expensive.

You can do an ATX board, but you need PCIe extensions because of the heat generated and it will no longer fit in an off-the-shelf enclosure.

BTW, in response to your PM: All operating systems with available ATI SDK, except for mac (don't know, don't use it), will allow up to 8 GPU's. 5970's are dual GPU's so you are at 6 total now

[DeathAndTaxes]

If you are willing to open mount them you can use a normal ATX MB without using extenders.

You just need a MB w/ a slot configuration:

PCIEx16
anything - unused
anything - unused
PCIEx16
anything - unused
anything - unused
PCIEx16

I run 3x5970s (6 GPU) that way just fine.  Granted this is w/ no case.  I simply have the MB mounted to an ATX MB tray (w/ expansion slots to support the video cards).

~2300 MH/s per rig and 870W @ the wall.

[Proofer]

If you are willing to open mount them you can use a normal ATX MB without using extenders.

You just need a MB w/ a slot configuration:

PCIEx16
anything - unused
anything - unused
PCIEx16
anything - unused
anything - unused
PCIEx16

I know from another post of yours elsewhere that you use the MSI 890FXA-GD70; that's what I'm planning to use.

I run 3x5970s (6 GPU) that way just fine.  Granted this is w/ no case.  I simply have the MB mounted to an ATX MB tray (w/ expansion slots to support the video cards).

I know this isn't frugal, but do you think this $50 acrylic open case would work?

~2300 MH/s per rig and 870W @ the wall.

So a 1000W PSU should be enough, even with a HDD?  --I might decide to do some SW development with this system.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I know from another post of yours elsewhere that you use the MSI 890FXA-GD70; that's what I'm planning to use.

Yup that is the one.

I know this isn't frugal, but do you think this $50 acrylic open case would work?

A little pricey but it would work fine.  Hell just a MB sitting on a MB box works fine (I ran 4 rigs that way for over a month).

I use a pair of 120mm fans laying "on top" across the 3 video cards to aid in airflow.  That plus GPU fans clocked at 70% keep everything cool and stable.  If you want it a little quieter in winter you probably can get away w/ 60% fan speed but you might need to turn down the clocks 5% or so.

So a 1000W PSU should be enough, even with a HDD?  --I might decide to do some SW development with this system.

The 870W is a sempron CPU (underclocked to 2Ghz from 2.8Ghz), usb drive running linuxcoin, GPU RAM underclocked to 160MHz, no HDD, everything unrelated to mining turned off in the bios (USB3, sata, onboard sound, etc) and a 80Plus-GOLD PSU. If you are going to put in a decent CPU and use it for general purpose computing if it were me I would go for 1200W PSU.  1000W would be fine for an optimized dedicated mining rig.

The other advantage of 1200W is that if you later change your mind you could build an open extended frame, buy 4 extenders, add one more 5970 and convert it into a 4x5970 rig (~3GH/s).  

[likuidxd]

The other advantage of 1200W is that if you later change your mind you could build an open extended frame, buy 4 extenders, add one more 5970 and convert it into a 4x5970 rig (~3GH/s).   

I would recommend this. If bitcoin goes up you'll be happy, if bitcoin goes down its pretty safe to say you'll have a computer you'll be happy with for some years down the road. The 890 is an AM3+ board so you can always grab a 6 core later on down the road.

I know this isn't frugal, but do you think this $50 acrylic open case would work?

I have seen this being used, AceJam I believe, and it works good.
It's a bit more oddball, but a shoe rack works good too!  (with the use of extenders of course)

[kano]

Usual comment about Linux ...
See my sig - and yeah use cgminer - coz only the best will do
(if you're going to use a hard drive to make it more reliable booting, you can still use that script but instead select to install to HDD after you boot the CD in your mining rig and you get to the screen that gives you that option)

[Proofer]

The rig so far...

Ordered:
3x 5970 GPU
1x Corsair 1200AX PSU
1x Acrylic Open Computer Case

Planned:
MSI 890FXA-GD70 motherboard containing Sempron 145 CPU and 1G RAM (used)

[jamesg]

I would recommend you do something like this:

These are a couple of rigs I have running. PM me if you would like some details.

You move out of the dc or you have some at home too?

This is a picture of them being burnt in at my house before being moved to the DC. I will details the specs when I get a free moment.

[Inaba]

So a 1000W PSU should be enough, even with a HDD?  --I might decide to do some SW development with this system.

No, a 1KW PSU will not power  3 5970's in a stable configuration.  Many, many of my initial problems when building my bitcoin rigs turned out to be power related.  Once I switched exclusively to 1200w PSUs, 90% of my stability problems went away.  Running at the threshold of a PSU will induce all sorts of intermittent problems that are nearly impossible to track down.

[jamesg]

So a 1000W PSU should be enough, even with a HDD?  --I might decide to do some SW development with this system.

No, a 1KW PSU will not power  3 5970's in a stable configuration.  Many, many of my initial problems when building my bitcoin rigs turned out to be power related.  Once I switched exclusively to 1200w PSUs, 90% of my stability problems went away.  Running at the threshold of a PSU will induce all sorts of intermittent problems that are nearly impossible to track down.

+1000000000

This is why ALL of my rigs are dual PSU to specifically avoid this problem. Dual PSUs are almost always less expensive than a single PSU of the same wattage so there is also cost savings in dual PSUs, even if you have to buy the dual PSU adapter.

[DeathAndTaxes]

No, a 1KW PSU will not power  3 5970's in a stable configuration.  Many, many of my initial problems when building my bitcoin rigs turned out to be power related.  Once I switched exclusively to 1200w PSUs, 90% of my stability problems went away.  Running at the threshold of a PSU will induce all sorts of intermittent problems that are nearly impossible to track down.

It depends on the system as I indicated if you are building a general purpose computer which also mines then go 1200W but 100W is fine (check individual rail amperage) for a dedicated 3x5970 rig.

Sempron 145 (underclocked to 2GHz).
2GB RAM
4GB flash drive running linux coin.
3x5970s. (820 core & 160 Mhz memory)
80Plus-Gold PSU.
everything not needed turned off in bios (usb3, IDE, SATA controller, onboard sound, etc).

Pulls 870W at the wall.   That is AC wattage.  Back out (at least) 10% for PSU inefficiency and it is ~800W DC.  That is 80% of 100W rated load.

Now before anyone half reads this and does something stupid.  1000W is fine for a USB linux only system properly optimized to reduce non-GPU powerload and w/ proper GPU memory underclocked (huge wattage saver).  If you can't / won't do that then go 1200W at least.

[Inaba]

An 80 Plus Gold PSU is going to cost you about the same as a bronze or silver 1200 w PSU.  You'll also be running the PSU at 80+% capacity 24/7 ... most PSU operate most efficiently at ~50 - ~60% load, not 80%... so your cost over time is going to be higher running a 1KW PSU as well.  

While I don't believe any of my sub 1.2KW PSUs were 80plus GOLD rated, they were quality PSUs (Corsair, etc) and they had stability problems if I put in more than 2 5970's along with 5870's.  Moving to a 1200w let(s) me put 3 5970's and 1 5870 on the same rig.  Anything less and the rig becomes unstable.  Swapping one of the 5970's with a 5870 on a sub 1200w PSU and things become stable again.

Like I said, maybe an 80 plus gold would be different, but for the cost difference, my money is on 1200w.

Also - I'd try to make sure you got a single rail design.  I've had nothing but trouble trying to balance multi-rail GPUs when you're sucking down amps with dual GPU cards hanging off them on every rail.

[DeathAndTaxes]

An 80 Plus Gold PSU is going to cost you about the same as a bronze or silver 1200 w PSU.  You'll also be running the PSU at 80+% capacity 24/7 ... most PSU operate most efficiently at ~50 - ~60% load, not 80%... so your cost over time is going to be higher running a 1KW PSU as well.  

While I don't believe any of my sub 1.2KW PSUs were 80plus GOLD rated, they were quality PSUs (Corsair, etc) and they had stability problems if I put in more than 2 5970's along with 5870's.  Moving to a 1200w let(s) me put 3 5970's and 1 5870 on the same rig.  Anything less and the rig becomes unstable.  Swapping one of the 5970's with a 5870 on a sub 1200w PSU and things become stable again.

Like I said, maybe an 80 plus gold would be different, but for the cost difference, my money is on 1200w.

Interesting alternative view.  It is amazing how important the PSU ends up being.  Then again we are pushing these machines far beyond what they were ever intended to do.  Maybe i just go lucky w/ good PSU.   A lot depends on not just the wattage, but rail configuration, quality of the regulation etc.  

One PSU might have nearly perfect regulation @ 60% load but goes to crap at 80% load.
Another might have more variability in voltage @ 60% load but isn't much worse at 80% load.

For the record my rigs all have 3x5970 running on either:
1000W model http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171056
1200W model http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171055

My workstation (4x5970 water cooled) uses this beast:
1350W http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194092

A little too expensive for mining rigs but I use the workstation more for just mining.  It is an awesome PSU the only con would be the price.  Nice thick heavy cables, quality cable wraps, all the cables are modular (including ATX 24 pin) which is useful when you need to get into that case crammed w/ 4 dual GPU cards and water cooling gear.  

The one thing Bitcoin has taught me is that PSU are the unsung heroes of the computing world.

Quick question do you run your rigs @ 230V? Either at home or in your datacenter.  I am thinking about maybe running a pair of 230V 30A lines in my garage to squeeze another 5% or so efficiency out of the rigs as well as move them all to dedicated circuits.

[cicada]

The one thing Bitcoin has taught me is that PSU are the unsung heroes of the computing world.

Hear, hear.  Gone are the days for me of clicking 'lowest price' sorting and picking the first one that meets the wattage requirements.

[Proofer]

It might be a good time to reiterate that I've ordered a top-of-the-line, +12V single-rail, hugely expensive ($287.43) 1200W PSU: Corsair AX1200 (although in my previous post I swapped the "AX" and the "1200").

Professional Series™ Gold AX1200 — 80 PLUS® Gold Certified Fully-Modular Power Supply

[Inaba]

Quick question do you run your rigs @ 230V? Either at home or in your datacenter.  I am thinking about maybe running a pair of 230V 30A lines in my garage to squeeze another 5% or so efficiency out of the rigs as well as move them all to dedicated circuits.

I actually just switched two of my home rigs over to 240v as a test and it seems to be working out very well... and it reduced my amp load requirements for the wiring.  If I were to do it all over again, I would just run new 240v lines.  In the DC, the rigs I have are currently on 120v - the cost doubles for 240v (but I only need half the amps, so it's a wash) - so I haven't bothered to change out my power requirements in the DC.  

I would highly recommend running the lines to your garage if you are skating on the edge of your AMP rating of your wiring now, like I was.  I'm trying to figure a way to wire up upstairs computer room with 240v heh.  Not an easy task sadly, with the breakerbox in the basement.

It might be a good time to reiterate that I've ordered a top-of-the-line, +12V single-rail, hugely expensive ($287.43) 1200W PSU: Corsair AX1200 (although in my previous post I swapped the "AX" and the "1200").

I have one of these and it's probably the best or 2nd best 1200w I have.  You won't go wrong with that PSU... rock solid.  Only the Antec might be better, but it's a close call either way.

[jamesg]

It might be a good time to reiterate that I've ordered a top-of-the-line, +12V single-rail, hugely expensive ($287.43) 1200W PSU: Corsair AX1200 (although in my previous post I swapped the "AX" and the "1200").

Professional Series™ Gold AX1200 — 80 PLUS® Gold Certified Fully-Modular Power Supply

Proofer, $300 for a power supply way overboard. Why would you spend $300 on one 1200w power supply when you can by 2 700w for $120-$140?

IMHO, this is just wasting money.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Proofer, $300 for a power supply way overboard. Why would you spend $300 on one 1200w power supply when you can by 2 700w for $120-$140?

IMHO, this is just wasting money.

You can get a 700W 80Plus-Gold PSU w/ 5 year warranty for $70?
Or did you mean $140ea?  If so I wouldn't say paying $20 more for higher quality with higher efficiency and warranty is a waste of money.

[Proofer]

Proofer, $300 for a power supply way overboard. Why would you spend $300 on one 1200w power supply when you can by 2 700w for $120-$140?

IMHO, this is just wasting money.

Hmm, this sent me to Amazon; there I find that the equivalent 750W unit is $174.  And I don't have to have a second PSU hanging off my open case nor worry about hooking them together ("uh, electrons are the yellow ones, right?").

[plastic.elastic]

I have one of these and it's probably the best or 2nd best 1200w I have.  You won't go wrong with that PSU... rock solid.  Only the Antec might be better, but it's a close call either way.

Please for the love of PSUs, forget the brandname you see on on the box. What matters is the OEM of these PSUs.

So do your due diligence and search.

[Inaba]

I have one of these and it's probably the best or 2nd best 1200w I have.  You won't go wrong with that PSU... rock solid.  Only the Antec might be better, but it's a close call either way.

Please for the love of PSUs, forget the brandname you see on on the box. What matters is the OEM of these PSUs.

So do your due diligence and search.

How does my comment, in any way, indicate that I am basing my experience off of a brand name: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=177

Did you ever consider that perhaps I *might* actually know what I'm talking about in the technical realm?  How, exactly, would you have me identify an Antec 1200w PSU, if I don't use it's brand name? Should I just post a product number instead, because, you know, that'll make things clear.  Additionally, I was posting my experience between the two PSU's that I have, so again, should I just not identify which PSU that I have and am actively using as being superior, making the post completely useless?

[plastic.elastic]

I have one of these and it's probably the best or 2nd best 1200w I have.  You won't go wrong with that PSU... rock solid.  Only the Antec might be better, but it's a close call either way.

Please for the love of PSUs, forget the brandname you see on on the box. What matters is the OEM of these PSUs.

So do your due diligence and search.

How does my comment, in any way, indicate that I am basing my experience off of a brand name: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=177

Did you ever consider that perhaps I *might* actually know what I'm talking about in the technical realm?  How, exactly, would you have me identify an Antec 1200w PSU, if I don't use it's brand name? Should I just post a product number instead, because, you know, that'll make things clear.  Additionally, I was posting my experience between the two PSU's that I have, so again, should I just not identify which PSU that I have and am actively using as being superior, making the post completely useless?

Have you ever considered Antec might use different OEM during their production of a particular model? and yes your post is very vague. Antec makes tons of POS products, only some particular models are being produced by quality OEM. By the time someone read your post, they would think of different model.

[Inaba]

So again, I ask you, how would you have me identify a particular PSU without using the name?  As for Antec using a different OEM for a particular product, yes I have considered that and rejected it on the grounds that it is unlikely at best and completely ridiculous at worst.  Antec has/will/does change the model identifier if they change the OEM.  There is always a chance that they would change this policy they have followed in the past, but it is unlikely.

[Unacceptable]

Someone mentioned 2 PSU's on a single mobo,check this out

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=21193

[kano]

Someone mentioned 2 PSU's on a single mobo,check this out

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=21193

Yeah it just connects the activation pins of the 2nd PSU to the mobo "PSU on pins" so the first one switches on the 2nd one also.
Or you can just short the two pins on the 2nd PSU and switch it on/off manually

But the important point about having 2 PSU is that they are both the same quality and both high quality.
If you connect a high and low quality PSU you can use almost 2x the power necessary.
In my case when I first tried it (it was late at night and I could only find an old cheap PSU lying around when I worked out I needed more power was the cause of the constant shutdowns) I was using over 700W to power 2 x 6950 + Motherboard.
When I replaced the 2nd PSU with a better quality one, it dropped to 410W and has been ever since ...
They're not very high quality but I'd be certain it would drop maybe up to as much as another 50W if I had high quality PSU's

[P4man]

As for Antec using a different OEM for a particular product, yes I have considered that and rejected it on the grounds that it is unlikely at best and completely ridiculous at worst.  Antec has/will/does change the model identifier if they change the OEM.  There is always a chance that they would change this policy they have followed in the past, but it is unlikely.

Not sure Im understandig you correctly, but all nearly PSU's are just rebranded OEM products. You can find the oem here:
http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/psu_manufacturers

[DeathAndTaxes]

Not sure Im understandig you correctly, but all nearly PSU's are just rebranded OEM products. You can find the oem here:
http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/psu_manufacturers

One thing to point out is since the OEM name is rarely known or connected to the product they have no problem making a PSU as well built or cheaply built as the brand wants them to.  

So 2 PSU from different brands but same OEM can have vastly different build quality, and regulation performance.

[Inaba]

My point was if Antec (or any reputable company except Netgear - which incidentally I don't consider reputable anyway) were to change OEM manufacturers, it is typically accompanied by a product model number change as well.  At no time did I state or imply that companies don't change OEM manufacturers.  Does this hold true 100% of the time?  No, but typically in the high end enthusiast market, which the Antec 1200w is definitely in, this is the case simply because the target market will know/learn very fast that something has changed, for better or worse.

[plastic.elastic]

So again, I ask you, how would you have me identify a particular PSU without using the name?  As for Antec using a different OEM for a particular product, yes I have considered that and rejected it on the grounds that it is unlikely at best and completely ridiculous at worst.  Antec has/will/does change the model identifier if they change the OEM.  There is always a chance that they would change this policy they have followed in the past, but it is unlikely.

The True series has had different OEMs in the past without noticing or model revising. This makes your post completely invalid and moot.

Maybe thro your mighty experience, you overlooked this.

Keep arguing and i can care shitless.

[Inaba]

Prove it.  Go on... lets see a link.  Show me where Antec has changed OEM manufacturers but kept the same model number.  I'll wait...

Keep spewing your bullshit, I'm sure someone, somewhere is listening and giving a shit.  But so far, I've yet to see a post from you that is anything but mindless drivel with absolutely nothing to back it up.

And yet AGAIN... for the third or fourth time, I ask you how am I suppose to identify a PSU if I don't give the model number?  Answer this one question.  Why do you keep avoiding it? Because you know your statement is completely asinine and now you can't back out of it?  That's my guess.  Man up and admit you were being an idiot and we can move on.

Keep arguing and i can care shitless.

What does this even mean, anyway?  Does being Eurotrash make you angry like your American White Trash counterparts or something?

[Blackout]

I need to do the same with 3 5830s.... anyone got the el cheapo combo to run continuously caseless in the garage or laundry room

[CleverMiner]

I need to do the same with 3 5830s.... anyone got the el cheapo combo to run continuously caseless in the garage or laundry room

What ? Combo ?

5830 and 5970 are different beast,  use a good 600w and so be it.

BTW guys there is a good deal on the ENERMAX MAXREVO 210$ after MIR http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194092

[Unacceptable]

I need to do the same with 3 5830s.... anyone got the el cheapo combo to run continuously caseless in the garage or laundry room

What ? Combo ?

5830 and 5970 are different beast,  use a good 600w and so be it.

BTW guys there is a good deal on the ENERMAX MAXREVO 210$ after MIR http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194092

Great deal....but I've learned never to count on rebates.I've gotten back about 25% of all I have sent in for & I'm anal about following the directions for them.

[Inaba]

I always hear about horror stories with regards to rebates.  I've sent in ~300 rebates in the past 6 years or so and I've had trouble with 5 of them.  The rest have gone without a hitch.  I have no idea what I do differently than other people, but the few times I've had a hassle, I sent copies of everything I sent them and they sent the rebate promptly... so even those 5 turned out good.  I can't recall a single time I never got a rebate that I was due in the end.