Fighting the FUD of PoW versus Po(Insert favorite word here)!!

[amishmanish]

Greeting Fellow Bitcoiners!!

Elon Musk is out rallying against Bitcoin proposing that:

1. There are other cryptocurrencies with less that 1% of Bitcoin's energy cost.
2. He is working with DOGE devs for "Potentially promising" results.

The Alt-coin bullrun has given everyone and their grandmas the right to propose their own version of Po(Something...something). The most recent that I heard about being Proof of History by ICP, which by the way jumped straight to top 10 with instant listing on all the exchanges. There obviously is PoS, DPoS and all the usual suspects.

All of these , and their communities, will claim that they have found the perfect solution with a "DAG" or a "Coordinator" or a "Neuron Network". A lot of times, these are just too bewildering to understand or contest.

I am opening this thread to propose everyone to read about all these solutions and propose the arguments for and against these wannabe cryptocurrencies. The FUD over Energy costs is not going to stop. It has to be reasoned out that what makes cryptocurrency unique is decentralization and true permissionless-ness. Zero potential for censorship. If these tenets are compromised then it is NOT a cryptocurrency but just another corporate solution to a problem that did not exist. Did we all need mineral water in plastic bottles? Were "superfoods" a major human requirement? Do Cigarettes and Colas take you to the top of the world? They don't. Just like that, these other "solutions" do not give you a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin.

Please share your thoughts and technical insights for and against the most common of these PoW competitors.

[TheUltraElite]

Perfect solutions require perfect evidence which does not exist.

Well what Musk did was a classic pump and dump. Those who followed him now got burnt, but those who played opposite actually made some money and will be buying bitcoin when it stops crashing a bit.

You are correct about these buzzword-with-no-meaning hype. I have been seeing them for the similar time period and I can say with confidence that any altcoin using a word like that to make their project stand out has no intrinsic growth value in the long run. But newbies get fooled into buying them.

This is because, they find bitcoin's price a lot bigger than what their pocket can afford. I dont blame them for this, it is a true phenomena so they look for other investment methods and thus put their money in shitcoins.

But seeing current involvement with DOGE, I would advice people to sell DOGE when the price rises and not get FOMOed. Celebs dont care about your money, they want their profits.

They pull out before you have even reached climax (Pun intended)

[slaman29]

1. There are other cryptocurrencies with less that 1% of Bitcoin's energy cost.
2. He is working with DOGE devs for "Potentially promising" results.

For far worse tradeoffs though. If you can have less than 1% of the energy cost, you will be happy with 1% of the security benefits but the fact is most coins won't even have 0.1% of Bitcoin's security benefits.

Remember, it costs resources to secure something. PoW wasn't a random idea thought up. DOGE was.

[bryant.coleman]

PoS actually stands for "Piece of Shit" and not "Proof of Stake". Elon Musk, being a PoS himself wants us cryptocurrency users to dump Bitcoin for some shitcoin which he can control. He has realized that it is impossible to manipulate Bitcoin, and that is why he has come up with crazy excuses such as Bitcoin uses too much electricity. Right now, there is not a single altcoin out there, which has the same security benefit as that of Bitcoin. Elon just wants a centralized coin, which he can dictate.

[fenican]

Chia coin does look interesting. Proof of Space, and a valid algorithm. Will be fun to see what it does to the HDD and SSD markets. DOGE is garbage.

[hugeblack]

Elon Musk's nonsense has exceeded the limit, I do not know why you are so interested in him that he is not Satoshi and his joining or withdrawing from Bitcoin will not change things, the price has risen from zero dollars to more than 30 thousand dollars without his help, so why do we need it.
Bitcoin is not a company and I don't think all miners and individuals who run an entire contract will care about the Elon Musk comment.

[aysg76]

Elon is just trying to create FUD about the Bitcoin in the market so as he can buy the dump in which he is succeeding at some point.Working with Dogecoin developers since 2019 to make doge crypto of the earth and giving statements like 100x faster speed and 100x less fees doesn't provide you the best crypto status.Proof of stake option rather be interchanged with Proof of Stupidity which allows the priviliged ones to be part of network by becoming validators.Whosever lock more coins has more power which was never the base aim of Bitcoin.Doge with unlimited supply and no technical development with less security is just witnessing a temporary pumps and soon Bitcoin and other top altcoins will come at the top.POW provides a competition and security among network and it has lot of technical working which are at best usage.Fees and speed issues can be resolved with new BIP's as in the past like lightning network but don't ever compare them with such shitcoins in the market.

[lionheart78]

Elon Musk's nonsense has exceeded the limit, I do not know why you are so interested in him that he is not Satoshi and his joining or withdrawing from Bitcoin will not change things, the price has risen from zero dollars to more than 30 thousand dollars without his help, so why do we need it.
Bitcoin is not a company and I don't think all miners and individuals who run an entire contract will care about the Elon Musk comment.

As far as I know Elon is just manipulating the market.  I believe he is in for the profit not for any cryptocurrency out there.  If think his plan is to pull the Bitcoin price down after selling his stash and buy back when the price crashes because if he is not into Bitcoin and profit then what he is doing in Fudding the market.

[slaman29]

PoS actually stands for "Piece of Shit" and not "Proof of Stake". Elon Musk, being a PoS himself wants us cryptocurrency users to dump Bitcoin for some shitcoin which he can control. He has realized that it is impossible to manipulate Bitcoin, and that is why he has come up with crazy excuses such as Bitcoin uses too much electricity. Right now, there is not a single altcoin out there, which has the same security benefit as that of Bitcoin. Elon just wants a centralized coin, which he can dictate.

Hehe, first time I head of Piece of Shit and I wouldn't outright call PoS like that you know, I mean ETH 2.0 is moving right into that exact direction, with PoS itself being quite a mature piece of technology right now when it comes to blockchain.

Of course I made myself many mistakes with old POS type coins but the implementation for ETH I hear is very different.

[bryant.coleman]

PoS actually stands for "Piece of Shit" and not "Proof of Stake". Elon Musk, being a PoS himself wants us cryptocurrency users to dump Bitcoin for some shitcoin which he can control. He has realized that it is impossible to manipulate Bitcoin, and that is why he has come up with crazy excuses such as Bitcoin uses too much electricity. Right now, there is not a single altcoin out there, which has the same security benefit as that of Bitcoin. Elon just wants a centralized coin, which he can dictate.

Hehe, first time I head of Piece of Shit and I wouldn't outright call PoS like that you know, I mean ETH 2.0 is moving right into that exact direction, with PoS itself being quite a mature piece of technology right now when it comes to blockchain.

Of course I made myself many mistakes with old POS type coins but the implementation for ETH I hear is very different.

It hasn't worked with other coins, and I don't think that it will work with Ethereum. PoS is a failed technology, which makes the coins more vulnerable to manipulation. For the past two years or so, there have been a lot of hype regarding ETH 2.0. I know it hasn't been implemented fully, but so far what are the changes that it brought? The transaction fee is still high and the vulnerabilities remain. Tell me the name of a single PoS cryptocurrency, which is doing well right now.

[slaman29]

It hasn't worked with other coins, and I don't think that it will work with Ethereum. PoS is a failed technology, which makes the coins more vulnerable to manipulation. For the past two years or so, there have been a lot of hype regarding ETH 2.0. I know it hasn't been implemented fully, but so far what are the changes that it brought? The transaction fee is still high and the vulnerabilities remain. Tell me the name of a single PoS cryptocurrency, which is doing well right now.

Well, it didn't work for all the POS coins I tried out because I saw for myself with maybe 20 or even 30 different coins and wallets I personally staked (yes, yes I did, so I know:) ) but to be fair, none of these coins could really claim to have the same use case and adoption rate as Ethereum. And I'm sure ETH's POS is not going to be straightforward plus it has real governance features. We'll wait and find out I guess.

[TangentC]

Tell me the name of a single PoS cryptocurrency, which is doing well right now.

Cardano  
Currently #5 on CMK, and it is Proof of Stake now.

https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/a-deep-dive-into-cardano

FYI:
Cardano is 1.6 million times more energy efficient than bitcoin.
Cardano is a 3rd generation blockchain.

Cardano is stronger in terms of transaction throughput.
Bitcoin's scalability problem is seen from its capacity to only settle 4.6 TPS.
This pales in comparison with Cardano, which can handle 257 TPS;
therefore, Cardano is much faster than Bitcoin at its current state in facilitating peer-to-peer transactions

For a better comparison, Bitcoin can only process 4.6 TPS, with Ethereum 1.0 at a slightly higher 15-20 TPS.
Clearly, ADA can process a higher transaction volume than the first and second-generation chains combined.

[franky1]

give it a couple weeks....
Elon will realise that instead of thinking: 20% of mining is in china.. and XX% of chinese residential electric is fossil fuel

he will realise that the mining farms are located in locations of renewable power grids.
he will realise that the mining farms dont even compete by using a share of the residential power allotment.but they buy up the excess 'capacity' which is never paid for before and just went to waste.


put it this way if there is a 20gwh capacity power station
it is usually servicing 6.6gw residential 6.3gw commercial 4.8 industrial. 2gw excess

a mining farm buys up contracts of the 2gw excess allotment

this means instead of a powergrid only getting say
residential per hour: $396k at 6c/kwh
commercial per hour: $315k at 5c/kwh
industrial per hour: $192k at 4c/kwh
excess: $0
instead the power station gets(onlong with the top 3)
excess: $80k at 4c/per kwh
...
asic mining farms actually chose from 2014 to place their mining farms in renewable energy area's

so while small rural residents are using outdated power stations in other locations of china.
asic mining farms are in the uptodate area's where renewable power generation are happening

..
so in short elon will take a couple weeks to do the calculations and realise that bitcoin is already under 1% of fossil fuel utility
and he will then learn that there are no large asic mining farms for doge. and its actually home hobby miners using residential electric from fossil fuel area's that are mining doge. making doge the worse of the two

....
and if its just about trying to shame china..
china uses 6880 twh
US uses 4194 twh

but lets put it into prospective
china uses 4.178twh per 1m population
US uses 12.67twh per 1mill population

so the US is wasting 3x electric per person compared to china

[OcTradism]

Chia coin does look interesting. Proof of Space, and a valid algorithm.

CHIA team also have a space-time ninjutsu and they used it to move the project from years ago to 2021 in the perfect hype period of market. Algorithms are valid, coins are valid but only their values are different.

Will be fun to see what it does to the HDD and SSD markets.

Sames as Ethereum does with GPU markets and there are FUDs to keep people stay beyond the CHIA party.

Bitcoin consumes too much energy, not green. CHIA destroyes SSD and HDDs. Funny FUDs.

DOGE is garbage.

Garbage sometimes has value of gold or diamond.

[bryant.coleman]

Cardano  
Currently #5 on CMK, and it is Proof of Stake now.

OK.. I agree that Cardano prices have gone up a lot recently and right now it is the 5th largest cryptocurrency in terms of market capitalization. But in terms of adoption, Cardnao is far behind lower ranking coins such as Litecoin and Bitcoin Cash. How many online stores accept Cardano as a payment now?To tell the truth, none of the online shopping sites I use are accepting ADA as a form of payment. It may be due to the lack of liquidity, or may be due to the difficulty in storing the coins. Or maybe the store owners have realized that the security level for ADA is not satisfactory.   

[slaman29]

give it a couple weeks....
Elon will realise that instead of thinking: 20% of mining is in china.. and XX% of chinese residential electric is fossil fuel

he will realise that the mining farms are located in locations of renewable power grids.
he will realise that the mining farms dont even compete by using a share of the residential power allotment.but they buy up the excess 'capacity' which is never paid for before and just went to waste.

If Elon realizes these things then he isn't Elon.

Think about it. He buys Bitcoin and adds it and then later finds out it costs money to secure.

Then he jokes about DOGE and claims it's a hustle but then says he wants to work on the developers to make some improvements.

Then he thinks about energy efficient protocols.

He doesn't realize anything. He is told things and gets excited about things like a regular Twitter person with new toys.

[amishmanish]

So this thread was about the PoW FUDders who are proposing alternatives as they find this to be the right time due to a "disturbance in the force". The topic brought us to the usual suspects.

Well, it didn't work for all the POS coins I tried out because I saw for myself with maybe 20 or even 30 different coins and wallets I personally staked (yes, yes I did, so I know:) ) but to be fair, none of these coins could really claim to have the same use case and adoption rate as Ethereum. And I'm sure ETH's POS is not going to be straightforward plus it has real governance features. We'll wait and find out I guess.

Yes, there have been multiple instances of these masternode and PoS coins launching and disappearing. As you said, the one to watch out for is Ethereum going to PoS. I see very little about how it has planned for decentralization. Even if that works as a smart-contract platform, it'll only be because the people using it are familiar with BTC.

Tell me the name of a single PoS cryptocurrency, which is doing well right now.

Cardano 
Currently #5 on CMK, and it is Proof of Stake now.

You've been shilling Cardano. I get it as ADA has seen a lot of interest recently with several newbies joining it to join the public stake pools. Just to remind you that all this time, the pools were being run by their foundation and two more entities. So effectively, just 3 entities controlled the whole network.

I have replied to another one of your posts here which talks about the same thing.

CHIA team also have a space-time ninjutsu and they used it to move the project from years ago to 2021 in the perfect hype period of market. Algorithms are valid, coins are valid but only their values are different.

LOL. Space-time ninjutsu. Of course it is that. I am still reading their whitepaper to see what they are upto. What is your impression vis-a-vis PoW.

[Wind_FURY]

give it a couple weeks....

Plus give it a couple more weeks, because of the genius that he is, Elon Musk will realize that Hashcash/POW, as implemented in Bitcoin, is the greatest/biggest break-through/discovery for creating a truly decentralized, censorship-resistant protocol. Or maybe he already knows it, and he trolls.

[OcTradism]

Elon Musk's nonsense has exceeded the limit, I do not know why you are so interested in him that he is not Satoshi and his joining or withdrawing from Bitcoin will not change things, the price has risen from zero dollars to more than 30 thousand dollars without his help, so why do we need it.
Bitcoin is not a company and I don't think all miners and individuals who run an entire contract will care about the Elon Musk comment.

He is smart indeed and has a big capital and big corporations behind to support his tweets and price manipulations.

People actually don't care too much with his wisdom or knowledge about Bitcoin or crypto in tweets. They care about his actions with the market, buy, sell and speculation. He knows what the crowd want to see with his tweets.

Consequently, with his intelligence, he knows what to tweet. The crowd react and support his funny tweets. His jobs are done very easily.

Miners will care more about their investments into mining farms, ASICs, cooling ventilation system, available cheap power supplies, and seasonal effects. They don't want to wipe out what they have built up and used so far. They don't want to gamble with weather, rain, wind for their mining.

[DooMAD]

Cardano  
Currently #5 on CMK, and it is Proof of Stake now.

You've been shilling Cardano. I get it as ADA has seen a lot of interest recently with several newbies joining it to join the public stake pools. Just to remind you that all this time, the pools were being run by their foundation and two more entities. So effectively, just 3 entities controlled the whole network.

I have replied to another one of your posts here which talks about the same thing.

Indeed.  With PoW, there's a financial disincentive to divide your own available hashing power between pools, as it could reduce your chances of finding a block.  With PoS, it's trivial to form dozens of pools and it won't cause any major penalties to your chances of staking coins.  Which makes the overall number of pools meaningless.

And when Cardano supporters make the argument that the cost of a 51% attack:

could cost 15 Billion ADA when ADA is priced at $1, which will be a thousand times more money currently needed to initiate a 51% attack on Bitcoin (BTC).

that sounds a little disingenuous when people were accumulating ADA before it was worth $1.  Back in 2017 it was worth $0.03 US.