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Author Topic: Merits = Likes, the new standard?  (Read 138 times)
savetheFORUM (OP)
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May 19, 2021, 08:31:54 PM
 #1

It was painful to see this comment coming from a reputed and active member of the forum and this gives me an impression that people are still using merits as they use likes on FB, which they will spend only towards their friends.

Instead of using your alt account to open a thread in Reputation with a somewhat accusatory tone, you should have just posted a Scam Accusation from your main account. You might have even earned a merit or two.

My question is - when you merit a post, do you check their username and if you aren't friends with them, you wouldn't give them merit?

I was under the impression that merit is meant to reward good content to make sure there are better posters and lesser spammers eventually on the forum. If Nutildah is looking up at the username and their history with the user, then I am sure a lot of other users must be following the same path.

If that's the case, why shouldn't we call it as like instead of merit because like can be subjective and everyone may have their own likes but merit is a very specific word and reflects good work.
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The Sceptical Chymist
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May 19, 2021, 09:11:59 PM
Merited by savetheFORUM (1)
 #2

Yeah, I assume merits are basically given out like a "like" on Reddit, and there's no rule that says you can't withhold merits from members if you don't like them--and frankly, I think members should be free to do with their sMerits what they please, and if they don't want to merit a good post made by someone they have a grudge against, they shouldn't have to.

On the other hand, if you're a merit source I think you ought to try to see past your biases against members you don't care for.  But I can tell you as a merit source myself that it isn't always easy.  Cryptohunter used to make very well thought-out posts, but I thought he was a complete lunatic and I couldn't bring myself to merit any of his posts.  That would appear that I was agreeing with what he wrote, and no way in hell did I want to give that impression to the community.  See what I mean?  Even trolls can make "good" posts, but that doesn't mean you need to merit them, even if you're a merit source.

My question is - when you merit a post, do you check their username and if you aren't friends with them, you wouldn't give them merit?
Generally, no.  I've merited a few members that I generally don't care for, but I wouldn't give those particular members a lot of merits anyway since they're Legendary members and don't need merits to rank up.  I'd much rather reserve my sMerits for lower-ranked members who do need them.

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savetheFORUM (OP)
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May 19, 2021, 09:19:45 PM
 #3

Yeah, I assume merits are basically given out like a "like" on Reddit, and there's no rule that says you can't withhold merits from members if you don't like them--and frankly, I think members should be free to do with their sMerits what they please, and if they don't want to merit a good post made by someone they have a grudge against, they shouldn't have to.

On the other hand, if you're a merit source I think you ought to try to see past your biases against members you don't care for.  But I can tell you as a merit source myself that it isn't always easy.  Cryptohunter used to make very well thought-out posts, but I thought he was a complete lunatic and I couldn't bring myself to merit any of his posts.  That would appear that I was agreeing with what he wrote, and no way in hell did I want to give that impression to the community.  See what I mean?  Even trolls can make "good" posts, but that doesn't mean you need to merit them, even if you're a merit source.

My question is - when you merit a post, do you check their username and if you aren't friends with them, you wouldn't give them merit?
Generally, no.  I've merited a few members that I generally don't care for, but I wouldn't give those particular members a lot of merits anyway since they're Legendary members and don't need merits to rank up.  I'd much rather reserve my sMerits for lower-ranked members who do need them.

Thanks for the input and you are one the least biased merit sources, with due respect to all others. I just wonder if we start giving merits to friends how will new members ever rank up? Isn't this something like "rich gets richer" scheme.

By the way, I don't know why he(nutildah) has a grudge against me, just because I am using a secondary account? I mentioned it multiple times that I stopped using the previous account and as you can see I never take part in signature campaigns so obviously I am not posting for signatures Smiley

I'd much rather reserve my sMerits for lower-ranked members who do need them.

I hope more members follow this path.

I also love one thing Theymos said regarding merits, below is the quote.


While we will not be directly moderating this, I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

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May 19, 2021, 09:53:44 PM
 #4

I was under the impression that merit is meant to reward good content to make sure there are better posters and lesser spammers eventually on the forum.

So your gripe is that scam accusations aren't merit-worthy, or what are you saying exactly? How does what I said have anything to do with what you're talking about?

If Nutildah is looking up at the username and their history with the user, then I am sure a lot of other users must be following the same path.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

If that's the case, why shouldn't we call it as like instead of merit because like can be subjective and everyone may have their own likes but merit is a very specific word and reflects good work.

I give merits to posts I find to be valuable in at least some form. That does not mean that just because you feel you made a good post, I have to merit it.

Actually "like" is not subjective; giving something a Like objectively demonstrates that you like that thing.

The concept of "merit" on the other hand is much more subjective... When you leave a merit you're saying something beyond just liking it -- we have to go into the details as to why something is or is not meritorious.

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 MΞTAWIN  THE FIRST WEB3 CASINO   
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May 19, 2021, 09:56:06 PM
 #5

By the way, I don't know why he(nutildah) has a grudge against me, just because I am using a secondary account?
I think it is your personal problem with a nitidah and only the two of you can solve it.

I agree with The Pharmacist on how sMerit should be used by the source of merit. The top priority of merit is for those who post high-quality post and as a token of appreciation for their contribution regardless of who does it, whether it is a low-ranking member or a Legendary member. I feel good about how this system has worked over the years since it was implemented on this forum and I never thought that just because one person hate me I will fail to get merit for quality post and prevent me from moving up the ranking.

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May 19, 2021, 10:21:55 PM
 #6

By the way, I don't know why he(nutildah) has a grudge against me, just because I am using a secondary account?
I think it is your personal problem with a nitidah and only the two of you can solve it.

Sometimes I really admire actmyname for his contributions.

I have no problems with nutildah and neither he would have any problems with me but I am just trying to understand his way of giving merits and how others give merits. If you look who is posting the content rather than what is being posted, then it's a problem because there won't be any new members ranking up while their friends will have million merits.

Quote
Part of the Spammer Blacklist: this user has made at least 50 replies that are not up to forum standards. This user is part the top 1000 worst spammers of all time.
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May 19, 2021, 10:25:52 PM
 #7

I love drama<>TMAN <> Where are you<>The forum has become lonely> Lauda is gone<>chupa mis bolas.

TMAN <> Throw me 50 sMerit.

Ohhhhhhhh <forgot the old TMAN was gone.

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May 19, 2021, 10:49:42 PM
Last edit: May 19, 2021, 11:01:43 PM by Welsh
 #8

I don't really have anyone I dislike here on the forum, and I tend not to care on who made the post, but rather how much the post contributes to the discussion, and if it had anything of any real substance. I've merited users with opposing views, as well as those that have posted things I've agreed with. I've even merited posts which were factually incorrect, but at least tried to make sense of things. For example, if someone has claimed that Bitcoin will never be able to do x, and they gave some decent reason as to why they might think that, but were ultimately factually incorrect then I have, and will continue to merit those that make effort. If its a blatant attack, without any real substance then it wouldn't be merited by me.

There's so many factors to consider, and I have no doubt that the username of the person's post does influence others, as well potentially even myself at a subconscious level. Although, I do tend to actively try to mitigate that. For example, sometimes seeing a legendary user, you might be like "They've already achieved the highest rank", but really that's not entirely what merit is for. Helping those, and rewarding those that make quality posts is one of the motivations that merit was implemented, but also merit has a alternative benefit of highlighting good posts, for those that want to only read posts which have been identified as quality posts, for example if you were strapped for time.

I was under the impression that merit is meant to reward good content to make sure there are better posters and lesser spammers eventually on the forum. If Nutildah is looking up at the username and their history with the user, then I am sure a lot of other users must be following the same path.
Regarding this, other than the fact Nutildah has already responded. Users will likely be influenced by usernames that's just a factor that comes with being human. You can try, and actively mitigate it, but your unlikely to prevent it completely. We are human, and humans are inherently bias. I'm not saying that is the case with Nutildah, but its not something that we can be over critical of, as everyone has a sort of bias whether that's subconscious or not.

Also, merit doesn't really remove spammers on the forum, not now at least in the earlier days that it was introduced I suspect it disencouraged quite a few account farms, but these days it simply prevents spammers from being able to progress to another rank, at least that's the intended purpose.

Yeah, I assume merits are basically given out like a "like" on Reddit, and there's no rule that says you can't withhold merits from members if you don't like them--and frankly, I think members should be free to do with their sMerits what they please, and if they don't want to merit a good post made by someone they have a grudge against, they shouldn't have to.
I don't think that is the intended usage for up votes on Reddit, though. I've always seen up votes as giving a post more exposure, because you think it contributes to the sub reddit, or contributes to the discussion. Very similar to how many users here use merit. Generally, if a user is contributing to the discussion in a meaningful way, they'll receive merits.

By design, I believe reddit is intended very similar to that of the merit system here. However, its the users using these platforms which are the weak link in the system. You'll always have users down voting posts that they don't agree on, and you'll have others who up vote things that they do agree with, but doesn't necessarily bring anything to the discussion or subreddit.

The same for Bitcointalk, because merit isn't distributed by one user, but instead by multiple merit sources, this creates diversity which in return results in different standards being set. I've noticed that even with merit sources, the quality standard for rewarding merit is often misaligned with one another, and for sure you'll probably find that every single merit source out there, including me has merited something that you disagree that it should have been merited. You might have different numerical values to others, and might disagree how much another user gives a post.
 
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May 19, 2021, 10:52:51 PM
 #9

I have no problems with nutildah and neither he would have any problems with me but I am just trying to understand his way of giving merits and how others give merits.

Okay, well I just explained to you exactly what my thought process was when awarding merits and you completely ignored that in order to post this.

You also ignored my question of what your criticism entailed exactly. The problem is I only give merits to my friends? Well, that must mean I have 1,074 friends because that's how many different accounts I've given merits to. Its the 15th biggest "merit circle" on the forum... and we have 97 merit sources. What more do you want from me?

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May 19, 2021, 11:00:40 PM
 #10

TMAN <> Throw me 50 sMerit.
Yeah, I vividly recall him doing that a number of times--and I miss him too.  I don't know where he went off to, but he definitely added some spice to the forum.  And was he not a merit source?

I don't think that is the intended usage for up votes on Reddit, though. I've always seen up votes as giving a post more exposure, because you think it contributes to the sub reddit, or contributes to the discussion.
Can't argue with you since I don't use Reddit all that often, and I don't even have an account and didn't realize the function of upvoting that you pointed out. 

Okay, well I just explained to you exactly what my thought process was when awarding merits and you completely ignored that in order to post this.
Just reading the OP, I didn't detect any serious criticism of how you give out merits and I don't know where this tension is coming from.  You spread out merits pretty well and I don't think anyone could credibly accuse you of giving out merits in a prejudiced manner--and I don't think OP is accusing you of wrongdoing, just trying to clarify what the real intent of the merit system is.

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May 19, 2021, 11:08:54 PM
Last edit: May 19, 2021, 11:19:55 PM by Welsh
 #11

Can't argue with you since I don't use Reddit all that often, and I don't even have an account and didn't realize the function of upvoting that you pointed out.  
Me either, I just read Reddit occasionally rather than participate there. I might be wrong, but that was my interpretation of the platform, i.e upvote things that contribute to the sub reddit or discussion, and things that you think people will want to see, but don't use it as a "like" button. Obviously, people will use it as a like button regardless, and that's quite evident. Anyone who uses Reddit more frequently than you, and I, and might be able to shed some light on it.

I've always seen it similar to merit, but the difference being merit doesn't really come out of thin air for the majority of users, but to keep things spinning merit sources are allowed an allocated amount (which technically does come out of thin air) periodically to assure there is a constant flow of merit, which allows good quality posters ranking up. Whereas Reddit's karma doesn't contribute to anything generally, but bragging rights (unless a sub reddit has a karma limit for posting), and allows anyone to upvote as many posts as they like up to a maximum of one time.

You also ignored my question of what your criticism entailed exactly. The problem is I only give merits to my friends? Well, that must mean I have 1,074 friends because that's how many different accounts I've given merits to. Its the 15th biggest "merit circle" on the forum... and we have 97 merit sources. What more do you want from me?
The merit system is heavily influenced by a subjective type system. There are no guidelines, and therefore there is no defined standard. The standard of merit sources is determined by Theymos, as he is the one that appointed them. So, I don't think its criticism necessarily, but rather a subjective opinion on it.

If that's the case, why shouldn't we call it as like instead of merit because like can be subjective and everyone may have their own likes but merit is a very specific word and reflects good work.
Personally, I think there is a difference, and I know there is a lot of users here that would disagree, and this is where that subjective outlook comes into play. I believe a "like" is something you do when you like what someone has said, however when rewarding merit you might not always actually like what they have said, but can still acknowledge that they bring up good points. For example, if you said x user is giving merits for extremely bad posts, and give your reasoning for that, that user that you've highlighted might merit you, because of the reasoning is relevant, and has some substance behind it. However, they might not like the fact that you brought this up in public. So, I do think there are instances, maybe only a few that the merit system, shouldn't be thought of as a liking system. Instead, I would much prefer to see either a separate liking system come into play or no implementation of "likes" at all.

To lend a few words from theymos on the reporting system (unhandled = soft bad) I would like to think a "Like" is a soft merit if that makes any sense. It's not quite good enough to contribute to your rank or highlight it to other users, but you at least acknowledge that you appreciated the post. I think likes would likely be used for lower quality tongue in cheek posts.
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May 20, 2021, 01:49:33 AM
 #12

I have no problems with nutildah and neither he would have any problems with me but I am just trying to understand his way of giving merits and how others give merits.

Okay, well I just explained to you exactly what my thought process was when awarding merits and you completely ignored that in order to post this.

You also ignored my question of what your criticism entailed exactly. The problem is I only give merits to my friends? Well, that must mean I have 1,074 friends because that's how many different accounts I've given merits to. Its the 15th biggest "merit circle" on the forum... and we have 97 merit sources. What more do you want from me?

I'm sorry if I failed to frame my query properly but I was only concerned whether you stopped yourself from meriting me just because you don't like/recognize me. I don't doubt your judgement but I was trying to understand the logic behind the merits being sent and taken.

Just like The Pharmacist said, I am trying to understand how exactly people are using merit sysem because as someone who has managed to earn some merits, I want to make sure I spend them carefully and based on how others spend them.

You can see suchmoon doesn't and I have some differences in opinions for example, but I never hold myself back if I see a good enough post from him. That was my understanding, that even if there are differences in our opinions that should not affect our judgement when it comes to spending merits because that just diminishes the value of merits as a whole.

I think it's time to lock the topic though, thank you everyone who responded and put their opinions. I will send some merits once I earn them to good answers, which I see plenty here.
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