why revolutions and movements fail at their desired outcome

[franky1]

so many people wonder why, when they gather and protest. while they scream 'lets start a revolution', 'lets start a movement'.. the end result is nothing changes

the secret is not a secret. its literally explained in the names
a 'revolution' is a circular orbit. yes you might see seasonal changes. but given enough time it circles back to where it started

a 'movement' is just that. stand still and just bend an elbow.. that is a movement.

protests are another empty task. a bunch of people standing in a street is not contractual or even binding. it does not set any deadlines or schedules for change. and no penalty for non-change

neither of these words actually inspire permanent change.
there is a reason why those in power want people to do movements/revolutions/protests. because they know those 3 activities are empty of any meaningful change. just how they like it


what people need to do is up their game.
there is actually a legal and lawful process to make change happen.
but those in power want to make people waste time in the wishy washy nonsense activities that dont cause change just to keep people from making change.

so here is some idea's
dont just protest. get all the people wanting to protest to actually sign a petition. get that petition to have a target. a schedule, a deadline and a penalty if ignored. serve it to all the people in power that need to change.
basically give them notice.
dont let it just be another empty petition showing a problem. actually have it contain some substance. solutions. demands. methods of accomplishments.

make sure the petition has what i just said. actual list of demands. a schedule process of how those in power can achieve it. a deadline. and a penalty if ignored.

then if you want to protest to make sure the message gets across loudly but peacefully. go protest. but dont just rely on a protest without any paper demands.

dont just be on the street preaching "we want change".. because the only reply you deserve to get is 'the underwear store is 3 blocks away, go there and change'

dont ask for a revolution. as thats just a spinning ball that lands where it left
dont promote a movement because it has no direction or destination.

the 19th century womans/black people rights didnt change due to protests. it changed due to petitions
media and those in power promote it was protests caused for a reason. so they dont have to be petitioned.

so if you are interested in changing things. be smarter. dont just gather and scream

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[_Miracle]

America was founded on some revolutionary ideas.

Protest is effective it just needs to be conjoined with policy changes.

The Soul of America (The Battle for Our Better Angels) by Jon Meachem is an easy read
but an even easier to watch documentary on HBO
It sums up the value of protest, also points out the ugliness of excluding an entire segment of a movement.


Movements fail at their desired outcome because the need for humans to separate and rank ourselves (higher and lower than) seems to override our ability to understand that it is not us against them---we are the them.

We are (at least in America) consistently voting against the individual and for big interests that are serving us less and less...

[franky1]

America was founded on some revolutionary ideas.

america was founded on some wars and battles

branding civil war as a revolution. is a starting process of covering up what really happened
it was WAR not what we now consider 'revolution'

the word is miss used too much

and then hundreds of years later saying a protest is a revolution.. makes the modern revolution empty
because a protest is not the same as a war.

and a revolution just means 'circle around and repeat'

protests alone have not changed things
..
here is a test
if protests were a thing..
why do lobbyists. unions exist

when cops want their 'rights' expanded they dont protest. they go to their union who makes a petition and lobby politicians.. yet they want citizens not to lobby/petition. they want citizens to just peaceful protest
just have a hard think about what organisations do to get their way. and follow their path.
you never see apple/amazon/microsoft CEO walk the stress in protest to get their tax reliefs and lowering of worker standards policies.. so obviously they know something you dont.

[_Miracle]

We Americans consider the founding of our country as "The Revolutionary War" ( I can see how those of you across the pond might consider it a civil war ;-)) : The Civil War was an entirely different beast (Ken Burns does an excellent documentary on it)

Sorry Franky1, it's waaaay too deep in my indoctrination to let your comment pass.
Not just my school history lessons but I've read endless commentary from the times...
things like personal letters written at the time, the federalist papers, John Stewart Mill's "On Liberty", many of the Authors from "The Age of Enlightenment"

The right to protest is protected by our 1st Amendment (one could almost say the founding fathers were covering their own asses)

P.S.
they don't know something that I don't: they have something that I don't= Lot's of money
Money equals speech which equals "we are fucked" if we keep silent and inactive.
Corporations have the rights of "persons" but not personal responsibility 

[Cnut237]

We Americans consider the founding of our country as "The Revolutionary War" ( I can see how those of you across the pond might consider it a civil war ;-)) : The Civil War was an entirely different beast

I'm in the UK, and I'd agree that certainly the American Civil War was a completely different thing.
As for the founding of the US, I generally refer to it as the American War of Independence, rather than the Revolutionary War... I don't know if that's standard terminology over here, or just me. But it definitely was revolutionary, yes. Whilst the US is obviously not the world's first democracy, it's arguably the first modern democracy... and it's no coincidence that the French Revolution occurred only a few years later.

there is actually a legal and lawful process to make change happen.
but those in power want to make people waste time in the wishy washy nonsense activities that dont cause change just to keep people from making change.

so here is some idea's
dont just protest. get all the people wanting to protest to actually sign a petition. get that petition to have a target. a schedule, a deadline and a penalty if ignored. serve it to all the people in power that need to change.
basically give them notice.
dont let it just be another empty petition showing a problem. actually have it contain some substance. solutions. demands. methods of accomplishments.

I'd argue that the problem here is that petitions, legal protests, etc are fighting within the system, i.e. within the strict boundaries and rules defined by those in charge, who are acting unfairly and need to be deposed. I don't believe there is anything within a system that allows for the utter dismantling of that system. If you want to do that, then you have to break stuff... starting with the rules. Taking your quote above, what would be the penalty that people can enforce? Those who have no power cannot do this, surely?
But perhaps this is just a question of semantics, and I'm misunderstanding your point. Certainly a degree of change can be forced within a system, if those in power believe that they are at risk of losing power, or losing money. If something is a huge vote-winner, then it can influence policy. More often though, seeds of rebellion are suppressed through the establishment media. And any attempted change that does succeed is generally minor. For a major change, you need a revolution, and all the chaos that involves.

[franky1]

to entirely break the system would require domestic WAR
the word revolution. is just a buzzword tagged on later to hide the word WAR

but here is the thing. you cant change the system with placards.. thats the nonsense media promote as the defacto method they want people to try because its visable and entertaining to see placards on camera.. but it only helps media ratings. not law changes

to make change you have to use the system.
like i said if you look at how the elitists change the system for their benefits. they dont use placards.

there are many ways to use the legal system. but as you have shown normal citizens dont know the methods. they are only shown the placard instruction manual

when the police want change. protests is not their threat.. strikes are. voluntarily refusing to serve unless laws change in their favour.

so citizens.
petition with a direct threat of
next election we will vote for the other guy
each town all petitioners will protest not outside some city hall. but outside a politicians front yard.
elitists pay media to stalk politicians in their front yard.. so citizens should gather there too night and day.(if your going to use a protest. atleast target it better in a location a politician cant ignore)

there are many things. you would be surprised what can happen if organised better.
even things like 'if government does not make progress on (eg plastics waste. the government accepts delivery of all residents plastic. on politicians front yard') giving notice of 30 days

and thats before even tying any politician to any legal case
it only costs $50 to set up slapp lawsuits.. if 500 people per town set up a slapp lawsuit per local politician. just the headache of 500 lawsuits will shift them into gear even if there is no intent on trial victory. the initial case process alone is a headache
yes elitists use slapp lawsuits too.

and thats just the start of things without even resorting to violence
daily phone calls. call a politician with prank calls or demands to change law multipled by 500 petitioners a day
letter spam them with copies of the petition. 500 people photocopying the petition and sending it to them in sacks of mail each day
be more creative than just swinging a placard around with no deadlines or solutions or penalties

[Cnut237]

so citizens.
petition with a direct threat of
next election we will vote for the other guy

I don't think this works, though. If you need a majority to win an election, the problem is that the majority don't vote for the candidate who supports the people's best interests... they vote for whoever the elitist candidate is... in the UK at least. A few media scare story headlines about communists etc is enough to do it. People vote for whom they're told to vote for.

even things like 'if government does not make progress on (eg plastics waste. the government accepts delivery of all residents plastic. on politicians front yard') giving notice of 30 days

But you do have a point, and I was too quick to dismiss it in my last post. I agree with you here, and this quote reminded me... recently in Germany, young climate activists mounted a legal challenge against their country's inadequate work on climate change... and they won, and forced significant policy changes at the highest level: https://www.climatechangenews.com/2021/04/30/top-court-rules-german-climate-law-falls-short-historic-victory-youth/
Sometimes, yes, you're right, if people approach things in the right way - not by simply waving placards and complaining - real change can be effected.

[Gyfts]

Most revolutions fail because they can't garner enough support for their cause, so they resort to violence like burning down an apartment building here or there. If people cared enough for your cause, they'd be willing to vote on the issue, or elect some politician that would enact whatever the goal of your movement is. I guess a revolution can be used to get democratic support and advocate for voting, but how often does that work? Hardly ever. People like small incremental changes, the status quo -- not revolutions.

[Mauser]

That's a good summary on Revolutions and failing protests. One point I would add is that many people are too lazy to change something and just accept their miserable position. When we see flashy protests on the streets where masked individual fight with the police it always looks like that whole country is on fire. But in reality most people just sit at home and don't want to engage. It is hard to get everybody involved into a revolution. That is also why we see most revolutions are done by the military, because they have the power.

[Lorence.xD]

Because the people that lead them or their successors are greedy people and power hungry, look at the Russian Revolution as an example for failure in succession, Lenin has a really good vision for Russia but he died and the regime got overtaken by Stalin and we all know what happened after Stalin took over, famines and mass incarceration to gulags were the norm plus the paranoia of Stalin that he will be betrayed by his comrades.

[BADecker]

why revolutions and movements fail at their desired outcome


Because revolutionaries and movement-makers get old and die, and there is nobody who has the clear vision to pick up where they left off.

Because there are flaws right in the revolutions and movements.

Because you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Because God reflects the desires of His people in what He makes happen for them.

That's why the revolutionary movements of the Biden election fraud, the medical in their fake Covid and deadly vaxx, and many more that are against the people, will ultimately fail.

[franky1]

so citizens.
petition with a direct threat of
next election we will vote for the other guy

I don't think this works, though. If you need a majority to win an election, the problem is that the majority don't vote for the candidate who supports the people's best interests... they vote for whoever the elitist candidate is... in the UK at least. A few media scare story headlines about communists etc is enough to do it. People vote for whom they're told to vote for.

in the UK its never needing say 25mill votes out of 40million voters to win

its usually only needs a difference of like 500 per town to swing a district/burough
a well orchestrated attempt to use local MP's vs each towns populus makes it easier to push them

the secret it not to petition 'government' because ministers are not elected. they are selected by their peers after an election.
but separately the citizen vote of who's in parliament(separate from government) is the MP thing.
and you cant be a government minister if your not a MP

so to attack the inner level of government. aim for the arms and legs of parliaments MP's
..

but other aspects are if you are not sure if a election swing threat will work. remember that elitist businesses love to sue 'government'
so people should learn to sue too. even as far as slapp lawsuits(empty lawsuits done just to annoy, cause stress and waste time, done to keep someone wrapped in lawsuits until they give in. give up. settle up)

[cabron]

Revolutions and movements are only good when they won the battle and that's when the head of the movement gets to be considered heroes but if the revolution fails, theyd be considered an enemy of the state to the extent of being a terrorist. Che is a hero to some, if he succeeded he could have been a ruler. Same with Pablo Escobar.

Isn't America born because they revolted due to the tax imposed on them?  At first, they were just colonizing the newfound land that is already occupied by native Americans that are already slaughtered by Spanish colonizers.

[_Miracle]

I'm in the UK, and I'd agree that certainly the American Civil War was a completely different thing.
As for the founding of the US, I generally refer to it as the American War of Independence, rather than the Revolutionary War... I don't know if that's standard terminology over here, or just me. But it definitely was revolutionary, yes. Whilst the US is obviously not the world's first democracy, it's arguably the first modern democracy... and it's no coincidence that the French Revolution occurred only a few years later

Yes we consider the "Revolutionary War" as the "War for Independence" even though that war resulted in the destruction of the indigenous peoples  way of life, women couldn't vote and then there was slavery.
America will celebrate "Independence Day" on the 4th of July.  Monday the 31st (tomorrow) is "Memorial Day" some will have a 3day weekend, we'll have lots of BBQ's, the flags will come out and lots of sales.
(I've set a place setting at my table for fallen and missing soldiers).


Viva La France -Viva La Revolution!!! Pardon the spelling *I'm just an American girl :-))

Wars and nation building have always been ugly business and when Maya Angelou said "When you know better, you do better"---I don't know that I feel too hopeful for humanity on that front because we don't seem to be getting it.

Peaceful protests and riots are 2 different things----riots happen when the disenfranchised move into action---The LA riots of 92 happened in my early 20's and it was the era of news when 24/7 live streaming was in full effect (remember "Shock and Awe" Iraq 1991?)
*I wept for us (humanity) for days and still do from time to time.
Both of those of those things can be powerful visuals that can in turn create permanent change.
Suffragettes, Civil Rights Movement, Tiananmen Square, we should still be occupying wall street ;-)

The current state of the world is ridiculous to me---we have the technical ability to collectively prosper and thrive but seem to lack the will to do it.

We also have processes for proposing new legislation, yes unions and associations are effective because you have a pool of money and attorneys to represent a collective interest, however unions are under attack and not immune to their own corruption.
Lobbying used to be for average people to make change and once again, now they are also big interest groups.


I was wrong when I said they don't know anything I don't know----they (big interest) know brilliant attorneys that they can afford to hire: creating endless laws in their favor

[franky1]

people fear doing the legal route because 'money'
yet being smart about it has never been tried.

take bitcoin. lots of (normally) high paid devs volunteering their time for free. and boom bitcoin came about.

so take a page from that. im sure there are many attorneys/solicitor and lawyers that want change. and instead of charging a client $500 and hour they could decentrally pro-bono some time to form legal papers for some community class action.

it just requires organisation. and i dont mean branded community 'organisation' i mean pen to paper idea listing and forming plan organisation.
most protest groups are not organising plans. they are an organisation selling placards wristbands and t-shirts
even things like the BLM founder is now rich from it. with multiple large houses. yet they go on TV saying they struggle to get donations to bail out non-violent people.

for those actually wanting things to get better for the racial issues. there are other ways than just wearing a supportive t-shirt. as that t-shirt will not change laws.

[_Miracle]

people fear doing the legal route because 'money'
yet being smart about it has never been tried.

take bitcoin. lots of (normally) high paid devs volunteering their time for free. and boom bitcoin came about.

so take a page from that. im sure there are many attorneys/solicitor and lawyers that want change. and instead of charging a client $500 and hour they could decentrally pro-bono some time to form legal papers for some community class action.

it just requires organisation. and i dont mean branded community 'organisation' i mean pen to paper idea listing and forming plan organisation.
most protest groups are not organising plans. they are an organisation selling placards wristbands and t-shirts
even things like the BLM founder is now rich from it. with multiple large houses. yet they go on TV saying they struggle to get donations to bail out non-violent people.

for those actually wanting things to get better for the racial issues. there are other ways than just wearing a supportive t-shirt. as that t-shirt will not change laws.

People don't "fear" the legal route due to fear of money: it's lack of money and disenfranchisement ----why try to work within a system that doesn't seem to be working 'for' you?

****A black person kneeling during a pledge of allegiance that states "Liberty and Justice for all"
I believe in liberty and justice for ALL
I'll do what I can, where I can to the best of my ability to live that value and make it true for my country.

Bitcoin is an excellent example of "people doing what they can where they can"
It's why I learned how to mine and transact with it.

Franky1,
it kinda sounds like you want people to make change "the proper way"----quite establishmentarian of you  


Ya Bumper stickers and symbolism works on us humans...
Someone wearing a red MAGA hat at this point in time tells me everything I need to know about them in one glance.

It's pride month in America and my goodness the movement HAS gone mainstream!!!

This is Target...

My rainbow LOVE is LOVE is LOVE t-shirt expresses one my beliefs quite clearly
I'd love to see this revolution...



Flower Bombs

[Gozie51]

then if you want to protest to make sure the message gets across loudly but peacefully. go protest. but dont just rely on a protest without any paper demands

I'm believing you are writing on majorly in a sane society. Maybe in a more democratic system and of course not in Africa. A little brief of the African continent would tell you that change doesn't just come by mere contract in a paper. Even in South Africa that seem a more democratic system, change didn't come by mere paper work. Mandela fought for the structural revolution until it came, he stayed in prison for 27 years which was not a little struggle not given in papers.

More recent struggle for change in some Africa society have led to serious wars and blood spilling as we remember the Arab spring cutting across North Africa (Egypt, Tunisia, Libya etc). Mali have now been suspended from African Union recently because of unrest and military coup going on there in the last 9 months succession.

Nigeria currently facing her peculiar challenges from #endsars to high level of kidnapping, insecurity and attacks of government facilities.

Therefore, some societies won't achieve change by paper agreement and in the bible it was said that even doing the time of John the Baptist, the kingdom of God suffer violence and the children of God takes it force.

African government won't yield to peace talks that may be the big challenge bedevilling third world countries.

[franky1]

Franky1,
it kinda sounds like you want people to make change "the proper way"----quite establishmentarian of you  

and what if i told you . the "establishment" want people to be anti-establishment and not use the establishment, but instead just fight on the streets like rats over rotton pizza, that can be ignored in the legal system

..
i thought i made it obvious by now.
telling people to wear maga hats and rainbow shirts doesnt make physical change movement. it makes a buzzword that sounds like its doing something. but reality is the only movement is arm waving.

selling shirts and hats and bumper stickers is just profit making. and alot of suckers think that handing their money over change things. .. reality is it just makes the buzzword founder richer..

I'm believing you are writing on majorly in a sane society. Maybe in a more democratic system and of course not in Africa. A little brief of the African continent would tell you that change doesn't just come by mere contract in a paper. Even in South Africa that seem a more democratic system, change didn't come by mere paper work. Mandela fought for the structural revolution until it came, he stayed in prison for 27 years which was not a little struggle not given in papers.

thats what media is saying.
but do you know that africa suffers from (if you read a real brief) things involving contracts.
international investors buying up land from government without the local landowners consent.
yep the land owner just finds out one day their land has been purchased and they have to vacate the land
this has caused 2 things. alot of displacement and battles of farmers remaining trying to hold onto land thats no longer legally theirs.

they can try killing as many international visitors as they like but thats not going to win their land back.
neither is trying criminal acts to get money to try to buy land back. due to AML restrictions
both jsut end up in death or prison

so just screaming shouting killing and fighting and protesting wont solve their problem
70 years of trying and the africans are still displaced and fighting.

when you learn that these legal land purchase agreements have been done. and that unicef/oxfam are just he 'compensation' schemes for the displaced. you start to really see the reality.
yes big-agri buy the land and western citizens end up donating money to pay the african compensation for big-agra's shameful but legal acts

its time to change the tune and realise why after 70 years of protests... protests have not done anything.
and for those things that have changed. look at the real reasons for the change that have been falsely advertised as happening purely due to 'protests'. because the fact is. legal stuff happened behind the scenes. and 'protests' are just the curtain to hide it all behind

so forget the consumerism way. forget the media protest way. look at what actually creates laws. and use them for your advantage.

take UK womans sufferage
media show women waving placards..
but read actual history and you will see that MP's were lobbied to advocate for change. women went to court. and that stuff pushed MP's into voting new acts into established law

[_Miracle]

i thought i made it obvious by now.
telling people to wear maga hats and rainbow shirts doesnt make physical change movement. it makes a buzzword that sounds like its doing something. but reality is the only movement is arm waving.

selling shirts and hats and bumper stickers is just profit making. and alot of suckers think that handing their money over change things. .. reality is it just makes the buzzword founder richer..

Yes you've made yourself clear and I think you're wrong on the matter
so we disagree and the world turns on... continuing it's revolutions.

[Gozie51]

I'm believing you are writing on majorly in a sane society. Maybe in a more democratic system and of course not in Africa. A little brief of the African continent would tell you that change doesn't just come by mere contract in a paper. Even in South Africa that seem a more democratic system, change didn't come by mere paper work. Mandela fought for the structural revolution until it came, he stayed in prison for 27 years which was not a little struggle not given in papers.

thats what media is saying.
but do you know that africa suffers from (if you read a real brief) things involving contracts.
international investors buying up land from government without the local landowners consent.
yep the land owner just finds out one day their land has been purchased and they have to vacate the land
this has caused 2 things. alot of displacement and battles of farmers remaining trying to hold onto land thats no longer legally theirs.

You have written so many things. Such a long writing you do  

Alright, from the quote above on your write up , you can understand you are talking on international relation, cooperation of government with other nations which is largely not in the interest of the masses but a self aggradizing purpose, highly selfish too. The government can secretly take up what belongs to the people and sign them off to their foreign cronies but that kind of interaction was not the change your original post talked about.

Your original post was about getting change locally by paper aggrement but such kind of change isn't given on paper but struggle. All society that have been divided didn't do that solely without struggle. At most the struggle can lead into aggrement but to relax and wait for paper agreement, change won't be achieved.