A question about unsolicited PMs

[Pmalek]

According to Rule #29 in the Unofficial list of (official) Bitcointalk.org rules, guidelines, FAQ, sending unsolicited PMs, including but not limited to advertising and flood, is not allowed.

I am interested in the forum's interpretation of the term unsolicited. It's something you haven't asked for, but are the rules really that strict? How do you make business connections and collaborations with other members on the forum privately if you can't send an unsolicited PM? If I don't want to state my intentions publicly, why can't it be done via PM?

A few examples:

- If I want to advertise a service, is it against the rules to PM that member on the forum and asking if he/she is interested in working with me?
- Is it ONLY against the rules if I send 5, 10, 100... PMs with the same content to multiple recipients. That would then be considered flooding.     
- If someone sends me a PM saying: "Cool site. If you want, I can advertise/write about it on my blog for a fee", is he breaking the unsolicited PMs rule?
- If I see a gambler who posts excellent tips on the forum, and I PM him saying: "Do you want to cooperate and join forces in finding value bets"? Can he report me for sending unsolicited PMs, and am I breaking the rules? 


I could think of more examples, but I am just trying to determine where the admins draw the line. If I were a dipstick and reported such PMs of people willing to offer or use a service or got reported myself, what actions do the mods take?

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[lovesmayfamilis]

I have already asked a similar question regarding the letters of PM.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5315374.msg56291292#msg56291292
As far as I understand, you can complain about a letter that you would not like to see. And only you can decide whether you need it or not. For example, I often receive letters in which users ask to remove negative tags, and their requests do not always seem friendly. Probably you can complain about such letters to the moderators.
But if you understand that the content of the letter is interesting to you, I think there will be no problems with the sender.

[zasad@]

If you want to communicate with the user, then you do not need to write links to resources in the first message.
You can ask the user if he is interested in cooperation.

I had to send over 1000 interview invitations
in 6 months
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5262967
Check out my trust.

I believe that you should not send commercial offers to unfamiliar users if you don’t share the same topics.

[LoyceV]

- If I want to advertise a service, is it against the rules to PM that member on the forum and asking if he/she is interested in working with me?

I wouldn't do that, unless the user posted something that indicated he might be interested. So if someone has an (old?) topic selling his services, I would quote that topic into the PM.

- Is it ONLY against the rules if I send 5, 10, 100... PMs with the same content to multiple recipients. That would then be considered flooding.    
- If someone sends me a PM saying: "Cool site. If you want, I can advertise/write about it on my blog for a fee", is he breaking the unsolicited PMs rule?

It depends: I wouldn't report a PM from a genuine real user asking a real question, but I would report it if it looks like mass spam.

Can he report me for sending unsolicited PMs, and am I breaking the rules?

Anyone can report anything, I assume the Admins use their own judgement.

I recently had a Newbie asking for a "merit donation". I didn't report it, it's not worth Admins time and said Newbie can't send more than 2 PMs per day anway.

[tranthidung]

- If I want to advertise a service, is it against the rules to PM that member on the forum and asking if he/she is interested in working with me?

You can but should not. Because the PM receivers have rights to report your PM or simply ignore it. If a report is against you, you might get troubles with moderation per rule.

- Is it ONLY against the rules if I send 5, 10, 100... PMs with the same content to multiple recipients. That would then be considered flooding.    

That rule is applied and not restrict to massive unsolicited PMs but the ban against you will be different by three main factors:

• How many unsolicited PMs you sent
• How long does it take you to send those unsolicited PMs?
• How many times you have broken that rule?
• Case study: Sorry BitcoinFX, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages. 100 PMs, 4 were reported but admin will look at the all data, not reported PM.

You sent over 100 PMs with the same format: clear unsolicited bulk PMs. 4 people reported it, making it unwanted & unsolicited bulk PMs = spam. Most others would've been banned much longer.

- If someone sends me a PM saying: "Cool site. If you want, I can advertise/write about it on my blog for a fee", is he breaking the unsolicited PMs rule?
- If I see a gambler who posts excellent tips on the forum, and I PM him saying: "Do you want to cooperate and join forces in finding value bets"? Can he report me for sending unsolicited PMs, and am I breaking the rules?  

Sure. It breaks that rule but depends on receivers (report or ignore), the senders will get different endings, ban or no consequence at all.

[suchmoon]

~

Most of the use cases that you mention would be better fit for a thread (create your own or reply to an existing one). PM is for something that you don't need to be public and you better be sure that the recipient is not an asshole who would report it and/or publish it without permission.

But normally if you want to deal with someone, they would probably have a thread or some other reason why you think they'd be open to that deal, so it's not really that big an issue. I doubt admins would act on a reasonable PM about something the person posted publicly.

[Pmalek]

I had to send over 1000 interview invitations in 6 months

Yes, but the question is, what would have happened if I, someone else, 5, 10, or more people reported you for sending unsolicited PMs? Would you have received a temp ban or maybe a permanent one? Or would the admins not have looked at it that way at all or simply warned you to stop?

<Snip>

BitcoinFX, isn't that the guy who donated 100s of bitcoins to Gavin's faucet back in the day? I think I remember that from a thread I wrote some time ago. Thanks for bringing that up as an example of what can happen in such situations.

PM is for something that you don't need to be public and you better be sure that the recipient is not an asshole who would report it and/or publish it without permission.

That's what I thought. It comes down to whether or not it will get reported. The consequences will depend on the friendliness or assholeness of the PM receiver and the mod making the call.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Can he report me for sending unsolicited PMs, and am I breaking the rules?

Anyone can report anything, I assume the Admins use their own judgement.

They do, but IMO that's the problem with the rule--it's way too vague and the penalty for breaking it can be quite severe (up to a permaban if I'm not mistaken).  It would be nice if either the rule was rewritten or was clarified by Theymos as to exactly what is and isn't acceptable, because as it stands it's almost as though he doesn't want anyone receiving a PM from anyone else unless it was "solicited". 

In my own experience, most of the PMs I get are unsolicited and I have no problem with them--but I think technically they violate the rules and who knows what would happen if I reported them.  The spirit of the rule is to prevent PM spamming (I'm pretty sure of that), but it's written in an overbroad manner, just like most laws are.

[PrimeNumber7]

I would give the following advice regarding sending PMs with “business opportunities”:
The following should be acceptable to send via PM:
*Responding to a PM that is on topic to the PM conversation
*Sending a PM after having affirmative knowledge that a person wants to receive business related PMs, for example they have a statement on their profile or have posted something recently indicating such
*Responding to a post via PM in a way such that the content of the PM would be on topic if the post you were responding to was the OP of a thread

If your PM does not fit any of the above, it would probably be best to not send the PM.

[Upgrade00]

Yes, but the question is, what would have happened if I, someone else, 5, 10, or more people reported you for sending unsolicited PMs? Would you have received a temp ban or maybe a permanent one? Or would the admins not have looked at it that way at all or simply warned you to stop?

This is where discretion comes into play. The staffs would not simply react based off the number of reports and but consider the situation before deciding whether or not any punishment is necessary and what it would be.
AFAIK, the content of the message also matters, is it spammy or of no value? Does it advertise a website? etc.

That's what I thought. It comes down to whether or not it will get reported. The consequences will depend on the friendliness or assholeness of the PM receiver and the mod making the call.

As I said above, the consequences would also depend on the content of the message. I have sent unsolicited PMs asking a more experienced user for help on some issues and while it was unsolicited, it was not spammy or annoying. I would assume the mods would consider that if it dies get reported.

[The Cryptovator]

Unsolicited PMs reports have been handling by humans, not by AI. So I believe forum moderators know what was the intention of the PM's and obviously they would have a standard to handle unsolicited PMs as well. That's why all moderators aren't involved with handling PMs. If you ask someone if he is interested or not working with you then you should have a clue why are you asking this question. Otherwise, still, it should consider unsolicited PM IMO. Moderators punish based depth of the reported PM how it is Unsolicited. There wouldn't a few limited rules of Unsolicited PM which shouldn't send to others. 

[suchmoon]

PM is for something that you don't need to be public and you better be sure that the recipient is not an asshole who would report it and/or publish it without permission.

That's what I thought. It comes down to whether or not it will get reported. The consequences will depend on the friendliness or assholeness of the PM receiver and the mod making the call.

Well, it's a personal message. You either know the person well enough, or you have a very good reason to send them a PM, or just don't do it.

In my experience, senders tend to be assholes far more often than recipients so this is really not a big issue. I never had to think "will this get reported" while sending a PM and even though I don't know if any of my PMs got reported, I haven't been banned or warned yet. So I think if you don't go crazy with mass spam or some idiocy like begging for merit or soliciting ponzi investments - you'll be fine.

They do, but IMO that's the problem with the rule--it's way too vague and the penalty for breaking it can be quite severe (up to a permaban if I'm not mistaken).

I think that's very unlikely unless it's a useless newbie account, or the PM violates some other strict rule (like death threats or malware for example). Usually it's a temp ban.

[zasad@]

I had to send over 1000 interview invitations in 6 months

Yes, but the question is, what would have happened if I, someone else, 5, 10, or more people reported you for sending unsolicited PMs? Would you have received a temp ban or maybe a permanent one? Or would the admins not have looked at it that way at all or simply warned you to stop?

I cannot know how many users will complain about my messages and neither do you.
Each case is considered individually. A moderator always knows more information than a regular user.
And we can only be guided by our experience and opinion.
It is better not to write commercial offers to unfamiliar users.

[cryptoaddictchie]

I cannot know how many users will complain about my messages and neither do you.
Each case is considered individually. A moderator always knows more information than a regular user.
And we can only be guided by our experience and opinion.
It is better not to write commercial offers to unfamiliar users.

I dont think your invite mesaagw would be consider as unsolicited based on the rule. Everyone knew the purpose of your invite and if someone reported you for such pm that would be so lame. Its not worth of receiving a temp ban for this.

Ive pm some of the reputable members on this chat but so far they didnt report me so i guess only those whom look like flooding or really advertise something receives a ban. Anyway we can noticed it as newbies and low rank usually do this. ( bot accounts)

[tranthidung]

<Snip>

BitcoinFX, isn't that the guy who donated 100s of bitcoins to Gavin's faucet back in the day? I think I remember that from a thread I wrote some time ago. Thanks for bringing that up as an example of what can happen in such situations.

I don't know about the faucet donation (did not search for it) from BitcoinFX but the person exchanged pizza for Bitcoin with Lazlo. Are you aware of this story?

laszlo I would offer to buy you a pizza, but I'm not based in the USA, so they might think I'm a prank caller.

If you don't get any other offers I might look into how to go about buying you one online.

Are you getting hungry or do you just like pizza ?  

Thanks for the trade BitcoinFX!

Your welcome laszlo ! ( delayed response - lol ) I hope you enjoyed your Pizza

[ScamViruS]

I had to send over 1000 interview invitations
in 6 months
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5262967
Check out my trust.

No one will report your pm without a reason. Sending an invite message for the interview has not resulted in any bad activities. But not everyone's thinking is the same, so that someone may find your PM unsolicited and report it.

If someone reports that the account your will not be banned, because the thing does not work that way. There are moderates to judge whether it is really unsolicited or not. And I think temp ban is not reasonable for such PM.

[Pmalek]

I don't know about the faucet donation (did not search for it) from BitcoinFX but the person exchanged pizza for Bitcoin with Lazlo. Are you aware of this story?

Yeah, it happened. I took another look and he sent 500 bitcoins to the faucet back in 2010.

Here is the part of one of my threads where I talk about that:

5.

The last case of exemplary community behaviour comes from BitcoinFX in 2010. This is connected to Gavin’s faucet that I talked about in example #3. When BitcoinFX saw Gavin’s request for someone to refill the faucet, BitcoinFX made a donation of 500 bitcoins.

Here is that post and the hash of the transaction.

500 BTC Donation incoming to the Faucet !   

~ Only original Bitcoin users will ever understand the true economic value of Pizzas and Haircuts.   Bitcoin for ALL
Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=183.msg7536#msg7536

Yeah, I remember those messages he exchanged with Lazlo as well

No one will report your pm without a reason. Sending an invite message for the interview has not resulted in any bad activities. But not everyone's thinking is the same, so that someone may find your PM unsolicited and report it.

You can never know what intentions someone has for reporting something. Maybe if multiple people reported him for sending them PMs they never wanted to receive and consider it spam, something would have happened. We don't know.

That's why I am hoping one of the admins will pop by and offer his view on the whole unsolicited PM theory.

I am even thinking of a scenario where one could frame someone for sending him and multiple other people unsolicited PMs and then reporting that person. Of course, I am not going to give anyone any ideas of what I am talking about. Depending on how strict admins are with that rule, it could get the person in trouble.   

[hilariousandco]

It's a grey and dicey area for sure but they're taken on a case by case basis. I'd generally urge people not to message people unless you know they're ok with receiving it but I know that's not something you can always know. I get PMs sometimes pointing me to things like free give away threads I might be interested in and that's fine by me but I also know some people have reported those same PMs as spam so you're walking a tight-rope when you send things like that.

Can he report me for sending unsolicited PMs, and am I breaking the rules?

Anyone can report anything, I assume the Admins use their own judgement.

They do, but IMO that's the problem with the rule--it's way too vague and the penalty for breaking it can be quite severe (up to a permaban if I'm not mistaken). 

You're almost certainly not going to get a permaban unless you send phishing links or threats via pm.

It would be nice if either the rule was rewritten or was clarified by Theymos as to exactly what is and isn't acceptable, because as it stands it's almost as though he doesn't want anyone receiving a PM from anyone else unless it was "solicited". 

But anything unwanted can be spam and there's no way you can put a set, definitive rule on it. Some people might be ok with receiving something whereas other's won't be.

[Delightcrypto1]

If there is anything I must like about this forum is for the fact that it connect people all over the world and it never segregate anyone. So for that reason i suggest unsolicited message should be welcome.

[libert19]

Better question, has anyone here ever got reported/banned for sending 'unsolicited' dm?