Creditors voting on MTGOX Draft Rehabilitation Plan

[Trupik]

After years of deliberation there finally is a Draft Rehabilitation Plan for the bankrupt BTC exchange MTGOX, approved by Tokyo Court. The document is more than 200 pages long and while there is a translation to English provided, I'm still quite clueless what the legalese means. Did any of the fellow creditors read it and understand it? How will you vote?

As a creditor with BTC/BCH claim I am particularly interested in the following question regarding this Plan:

Will I get any significant portion of my BTC/BCH deposit with MTGOX back or will the crypto be converted to YEN using 8 years old exchange rate?

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[Trupik]

Ratimov: yes, the back and forth was going on for years in this case. But this time it is different. For the first time, the creditors have to vote on this plan. The deadline is until October 2021. As one of the creditors with small fortune of BTC in stake, I'm trying to figure out if I should vote hai or nah.

[magneto]

After years of deliberation there finally is a Draft Rehabilitation Plan for the bankrupt BTC exchange MTGOX, approved by Tokyo Court. The document is more than 200 pages long and while there is a translation to English provided, I'm still quite clueless what the legalese means. Did any of the fellow creditors read it and understand it? How will you vote?

As a creditor with BTC/BCH claim I am particularly interested in the following question regarding this Plan:

Will I get any significant portion of my BTC/BCH deposit with MTGOX back or will the crypto be converted to YEN using 8 years old exchange rate?

It feels like the latter outcome is more likely.

Given the extent of the crypto bull market, I don't see any recourse for creditors when it comes to getting paid in full in BTC. The sheer size of their balance sheet would mean that even the biggest exchanges right now probably won't be able to handle such a large liquidation request.

On the flip side, the BTC runup does make paying back everyone in full in terms of fiat a lot more feasible. There will probably be a lot of back and forth still with the legal settlement process, but hopefully they do pull through this time.

[Darker45]

As one of the creditors with small fortune of BTC in stake, I'm trying to figure out if I should vote hai or nah.

Is it to the question of whether you'd prefer to get back your funds in BTC/BCH or in the form of Yen using the exchange rate 8 years ago? If this is the question, there's definitely a landslide vote on the crypto rather than on Yen.

But it seems it would still take at least a year before things would even start to materialize. The deadline after all would still be in October. There's probably even an extension after which. But I hope there's a concrete step toward refund after this rehabilitation plan. This case badly needs a closure.

Anyway, if things would go as planned, the market will have to brace for hundreds of thousands of BTC flowing into the market.

[Trupik]

Is it to the question of whether you'd prefer to get back your funds in BTC/BCH or in the form of Yen using the exchange rate 8 years ago? If this is the question, there's definitely a landslide vote on the crypto rather than on Yen.

I'm sorry, but that is not the question. We creditors can vote for the "Draft Rehabilitation Plan" as it stands, or against it. I'm trying to understand what the 200-pages plan even is.

But it seems it would still take at least a year before things would even start to materialize. The deadline after all would still be in October. There's probably even an extension after which. But I hope there's a concrete step toward refund after this rehabilitation plan. This case badly needs a closure.

Yes, I'm painfully aware of how long this is taking. I have been on the MTGOX ride from the beginning. Still, current development actually gives a glimmer of hope, whereas a year ago I would have said the Kobayashi* Maru is a no win scenario.

Anyway, if things would go as planned, the market will have to brace for hundreds of thousands of BTC flowing into the market.

Well, half of the BTC from MTGOX is already gone. The rest of the BTC will hit the market one way or another - if the creditors are to be paid in YEN, BTC would need to be converted by the Trustee. If creditors are paid in BTC, they will likely sell portion of it anyway.

* Kobayashi is the name of the lawyer in charge of the MTGOX bankruptcy.

[Trupik]

It feels like the latter outcome is more likely.

Given the extent of the crypto bull market, I don't see any recourse for creditors when it comes to getting paid in full in BTC. The sheer size of their balance sheet would mean that even the biggest exchanges right now probably won't be able to handle such a large liquidation request.

The creditors cannot be repaid in full, half of the BTC is gone. But if I can get only a fraction of my BTC there, it is still a fortune in current prices.

On the flip side, the BTC runup does make paying back everyone in full in terms of fiat a lot more feasible. There will probably be a lot of back and forth still with the legal settlement process, but hopefully they do pull through this time.

That was actually a reason why it is taking so long. The BTC prices have risen few years ago and the MTGOX ceased to be bankrupt (calculated in fiat). The legal situation was then converted from bankruptcy to civil something-something and the whole process started again from the scratch.

[JohanM]

In short the rehabilitation plan will provide following payments:
- cash holders: 100% of their assets back + 6% interest per year.
- BTC holders: around 15% back in the form of money or BTC+BCH

In the last bull run they already sold enough BTC+BCH to do the cash payments.
The cash holders 100% repayment ability due to the high BTC/BCH exchange rate was the reason the rehabilitation process was even possible.
The payments will be done in several steps.

All other coins are lost (BSV, BCHA, BTG, BTA, ...)

[Lucius]

I wrote a few years ago, and I still stand behind it - that this case is a great disgrace to Japan and its institutions. It’s amazing how many times they’ve tried something and there’s been none of it, and all it took was to give back what wasn’t hacked to the damaged clients. I wonder what would have happened if Mt.Gox had been in some less legally regulated country?

[Trupik]

- cash holders: 100% of their assets back + 6% interest per year.
- BTC holders: around 15% back in the form of money or BTC+BCH

Thank you. 15% of BTC doesn't sound half bad, actually. Considering the coins I left on MTGOX I got at $100 a piece not long before the gox ceased allowing transactions. I will happily vote for this plan. Honestly, in current prices it will still be the best return on investment I had with Bitcoin yet.

[hugeblack]

I hope you get your money back, but the nature of the case here will be determined by the Japanese judiciary, which I do not think is different from the American judiciary.
Generally, the money is supposed to be refunded in bitcoin because it is an asset, but due to the nature of it has not been officially recognized, the ruling will often be to convert that money to the national currency and recover that money for all people who lost their money with the possibility of recovering the recovered currencies and return them to them as bitcoin.

so your chance for getting your BTC is less than 15% but will will get part of it.

[cesmak]

I've read all the english translation, but i'm not an english native speaker, so some terms or phrases are not so simple to understand in legalese terms.

This is what i understood.

As stated to someone else fiat refunds are all covered 100% so who will receive fiat refund will never suffer too much.

Another thing is the request (as i have done) to receive back BTC/BCH. There are no btc/bch for all, this is sure.

So seems that BTC are converted to yen and this quotation : 749,318.83 rate. And this is what it seems will be the value in yen that will be refunded, but if you want btc you have to convert it back with the rate at the time of liquidation (probably more around end of the year if all goes well). Few days ago i took the actual BTC/Yen rate, i owe more or less 5 btc from MtGox, if i convert my btc to that conversion rate and then i convert back at actual btc/yen conversion rate i will receive near 0.9 btc (of the original 5 i have). In terms of btc a big loss (i will receive only 1/5 of my initial sum) but in terms of fiat value (euro in my case, considering that i bought them with near 1000 euro, at actual eur/btc exchange rate i will receive quite 30,000.00 euro. so not so bad.

But we have to see how will be the rates at the end of the year or even more late in time.

But i don't thing that there will be a better plan in the future, so i voted to accept the plan. I will receive back something, better than other scam sitation where all was lost.

And there are also BCH..... so another small sum more.

For sure the possiblity to receive BTC full amount back is 0%.

Cheers

[examplens]

I give up on my BTC lost in the MtGox case. So, I did not follow much about that although I have often seen speculations and announcements about a potential solution to the problem. Also, they send me some documents few times, but I have not paid much attention nor do I hope that anything will be from there.
Can someone write here in short, what is the plan here and on the basis of which there is speculation about a possible refund?

[cesmak]

In short the rehabilitation plan will provide following payments:
- cash holders: 100% of their assets back + 6% interest per year.
- BTC holders: around 15% back in the form of money or BTC+BCH

In the last bull run they already sold enough BTC+BCH to do the cash payments.
The cash holders 100% repayment ability due to the high BTC/BCH exchange rate was the reason the rehabilitation process was even possible.
The payments will be done in several steps.

All other coins are lost (BSV, BCHA, BTG, BTA, ...)

All right what you wrote, but not 100%, as all other coins where all converted to fiat (yen) and so have a yen value, but you can't ask for a refund in this denominations, you will have the possiblity to ask only back, fiat or BTC/BCH, but the yen value of all the other coins exists so are not lost in term of value all values where frozen when the reabilitation plan started (exchanges rate) and are different from the first exchange rates used on the first part of the plan before becoming a reabilitation one.

Cheers

[JayJuanGee]

Well, half of the BTC from MTGOX is already gone.

What do you mean by half is gone?  I'll give you my vague outline of a remembrance...

In  2014, there were around 600k BTC that were hacked or lost, but then around 220k that were found/recovered.  There were other assets as well dollars, yen and maybe some corporate assets.

Then maybe one or two times a proportion of the stash was shaved off to cover administrative costs, but I am having a memory that would have been less than 20% (not 50%) and maybe included selling some of the Bcash...

Maybe I just need a link to a more recent rendition of the various happenings to see how you get to an assertion that 50% of the BTC is gone (presumably you are referring to whatever the quantity of BTC that had been recovered as of 2014-ish as a starting point?).


Of course, the summary post of JohanM below is more important than the history of how the quantities of assests happen to be whatever they happen to be.. because JohanM's summary gives the bottom line punchline of the distribution.

In short the rehabilitation plan will provide following payments:
- cash holders: 100% of their assets back + 6% interest per year.
- BTC holders: around 15% back in the form of money or BTC+BCH

In the last bull run they already sold enough BTC+BCH to do the cash payments.
The cash holders 100% repayment ability due to the high BTC/BCH exchange rate was the reason the rehabilitation process was even possible.
The payments will be done in several steps.

All other coins are lost (BSV, BCHA, BTG, BTA, ...)

I will note another memory that I have about some of the dynamics of this whole situation that likely contributes to the concept that BTC dumpenings are quite likely.  I would suspect if all the original individuals had their claims, then they may or may not dump, or they may just dump some portion that does not add up to much if anything; however, in this case, there seems to be a decent amount of evidence that some scalping companies have come into the mix and have bought the individual claims and so therefore own a large number of coins, and also they will likely dump as soon as they get the coins because it is part of their business model. 

Hopefully, they are at least smart enough to attempt to be strategic about their dumpening in order to NOT affect the BTC price, but we cannot necessarily expect such benevolence so they could dump in a way to attempt to push the BTC price down, including couple their dump with some kind of FUD spreading and coordinated with others.

Personally, I give few shits in respect to what the BIG players do even if they end up having 100k BTC to dump, and the BTC market will absorb those coins one way or another whether the BIG players who have become the owners of several claims decide to dump their coins in a manipulative way or they end up dumping them in a more "responsible" way.

[slaman29]

I thought there was already a plan for creditors and the whole past 2 years has been about that plan, with the agent selling the amounts awarded bit by bit to return to investors?

I thought all the questions you asked would be answered by now. Crazy how long this has taken to resolve! Good luck to you OP.

[jack0m]

Just a friendly reminder to all MTGOX creditors: the deadline for online voting is October 8th 2021, then there are only a few days left!

From the official FAQ https://claims.mtgox.com/faq:

In order for the draft rehabilitation plan to be approved, both the agreement of a majority of the number of voting rights holders voting on the draft rehabilitation plan and the agreement of not less than one half of the total amount of the voting rights of all voting rights holders are required.

Please note that, if you do not vote, you will be deemed to have voted against the draft rehabilitation plan for the requirement of the amount of the voting rights. Accordingly, please vote on the draft rehabilitation plan.

In short: if you want to get a decent amount of your claim back, then please vote YES, if you haven't done it yet!

Thank you.

[somebody else]

you can still vote at the website:

https://claims.mtgox.com/


https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/10/08/mt-gox-voting-deadline-for-creditors-ends/

[jack0m]

According to rumors from Telegram and Reddit, it passed with over 83% of total claim value in favor.
Still waiting for some official confirmation.

[cesmak]

According to rumors from Telegram and Reddit, it passed with over 83% of total claim value in favor.
Still waiting for some official confirmation.

No rumors, is official by today : https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20211020_announcement_en.pdf

Plan approved by 83% of voters with 99% of yes.