Square is considering making a hardware wallet for Bitcoin

[hugeblack]

Quote from @jack

Square is considering making a hardware wallet for #bitcoin. If we do it, we would build it entirely in the open, from software to hardware design, and in collaboration with the community. We want to kick off this thinking the right way: by sharing some of our guiding principles.

8/Today’s recovery mechanisms burn money. Customers have to protect recovery information from damage, loss, and theft and store secret(s). In practice, this is not yet mainstream-ready. We don’t want more passwords on post-its. What best of class solutions should we consider?

11/Layer 2 is essential for growth. The orders-of-magnitude growth we imagine requires a mix of custodial, off-chain, and second layer solutions that allow people to ‘get off of 0.’ What tech investments can enable seamless, scalable, L2 native support for a hardware wallet?

I think it's good news and will give a boost to the power of open source projects, so far we can't judge it but given Jack's experience it might be a good hardware wallet.


Also, such wallets will force existing companies to develop their systems rather than accepting more altcoins.

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[DireWolfM14]

~

The orders-of-magnitude growth we imagine requires a mix of custodial, off-chain, and second layer solutions that allow people to ‘get off of 0.’

Based on those words alone I can tell you right now, I'm not a fan.  I reckon I'm not the target demographic, however, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.  If the focus security and ease-of-use, and it's offered by a trustworthy established company then I can see it attracting more people to crypto.  And that is specifically a good thing.

Also, such wallets will force existing companies to develop their systems rather than accepting more altcoins.

I'm not sure about that.  Hal Finny once wrote (here on the forum) that he believed Bitcoin will become the backing currency for several independent currencies.  I have a feeling he's right.  As more and more companies start acknowledging the benefits of bitcoin, they'll see their are also benefits to having their own custom currencies.  I suspect that some day Amazon gift-cards will give way to Amazon Alt-Coin.   Any retailers or bank can start offering incentives to using their custom cryptocurrency.  In fact, I'd be surprised if the credit-card issuers like Visa and MasterCard aren't already working on such a thing.  If they're not, they're being short-sighted.

Unless bitcoin's fee volatility becomes more stable and more affordable when mempool is busy, I suspect Hal's prediction is more likely than not.  

[dkbit98]

I expected to see hardware wallet industry would expand and bring in big tech players like Samsung and Apple so this news with Square thinking about creating their own wallet is confirming that.
However I have a few problems with Jack Dorsey, Twitter, CashApp and Square because they are known for censoring and banning people, Jack is supporting idea of some UBI Universal Basic Income that is a terrible idea.

What I can see from his twitter posts is that this devices suppose to be fully open source for software and hardware, it will have big display screen, connected to mobile and it will have support for layer2.
There is no fully open source secure element but Trezor wallet developers are working on their own and I would more trust them instead of Square but competition can be good and better than monopoly.
If you check Squareapp website you can see they already have some devices used as terminal and register but I don't see anything there being open source.


https://squareup.com/us/en/hardware

[bitmover]

~

The orders-of-magnitude growth we imagine requires a mix of custodial, off-chain, and second layer solutions that allow people to ‘get off of 0.’

Based on those words alone I can tell you right now, I'm not a fan.  I reckon I'm not the target demographic, however, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.  If the focus security and ease-of-use, and it's offered by a trustworthy established company then I can see it attracting more people to crypto.  And that is specifically a good thing.

I agree with you, and I am not their target demographic as well.
However, to bring more people into crypto/bitcoin, it is very likely that companies can't force new users to be responsible for their keys by themselves. Too many people simple don't care about being responsible for their money and prefer a custodial service.

offering a custodial service is an interesting solution, especially if a reputable company is behind it
.

 I suspect that some day Amazon gift-cards will give way to Amazon Alt-Coin.   Any retailers or bank can start offering incentives to using their custom cryptocurrency.  In fact, I'd be surprised if the credit-card issuers like Visa and MasterCard aren't already working on such a thing.  If they're not, they're being short-sighted.

Unless bitcoin's fee volatility becomes more stable and more affordable when mempool is busy, I suspect Hal's prediction is more likely than not.  

I think Visa/Mastercard will try to ignore crypto as much as possible, or bring crypto inside visa (like a pre paid bitcoin credit card). Creating their own alt coin would be extremely bulish for BTC and it would make a lot of people get interested in it.

[SFR10]

Also, such wallets will force existing companies to develop their systems rather than accepting more altcoins.

That could be either good or bad ^{[it might have a similar impact to when altcoins were created, but this time for hardware wallets, and not all of them are going to be that reliable]}.

it will have big display screen,

Are you sure about that? That's not how I interpreted jack's "9th point ^{[especially the latter part]}".
Does anybody know about the missing 5th part?
^{- Jack repeated part 4 twice.}

[NeuroticFish]

First of all, I am not fond of this kind of news. "Is considering" means nothing, nada. They may or may not do it, and if they'll do it, it may follow or not this "design". No. That's nothing.
So speculating about it doesn't help either.

And I'd be scared of a company with plenty of money, like Square, asking users what they want from a HW. I mean, they can afford proper specialists and see what's better from the current hardware wallets, make proper research and proper specs, without all this shit-show.

For now all they do is advertising themselves. Not much related imho with any HW they may or may not make.

[dkbit98]

Jack Dorseay and Jesse Dorogusker from Square now confirmed that they started to work on making their own hardware wallet and they are prioritizing mobile use, support for Bitcoin first, global distribution and multisig solution.
They are creating a small team led by Max Guise and they are hiring key roles in hardware, software and security at hardwallet@squareup.com.
https://twitter.com/JesseDorogusker/status/1413222597207134214

[dkbit98]

Update from Jack Dorsey and Square from recent Bitcoin Live Discussion between him, Elon Musk and Cathie Wood, and Jack confirmed they will make their upcoming hardware wallet fully Open Source from hardware design to software:
https://twitter.com/BitcoinMagazine/status/1418159256734375937

Full interview on Youtube:
https://youtu.be/FIKj-66X7oY

[Pmalek]

Jack confirmed they will make their upcoming hardware wallet fully Open Source from hardware design to software:

They previously hinted that their hardware wallet might be custodial and if that wasn't the case, this announcement about a fully open-source software and hardware would be something to look forward to. But even if they say that it's going to be fully open-source, I don't think everything will be made public. When the upcoming Trezor device was discussed, I remember finding in the announcement a sentence that says something along the lines of almost completely open-source.   

[DaveF]

Jack confirmed they will make their upcoming hardware wallet fully Open Source from hardware design to software:

They previously hinted that their hardware wallet might be custodial and if that wasn't the case, this announcement about a fully open-source software and hardware would be something to look forward to. But even if they say that it's going to be fully open-source, I don't think everything will be made public. When the upcoming Trezor device was discussed, I remember finding in the announcement a sentence that says something along the lines of almost completely open-source.   

Depending on the secure element used, fully open source might not be possible since there may be propitiatory things in there. That has been discussed other places. Some people think having it hidden under NDAs is evil, others not so much.
Probably not worth getting very worked up over if that is the extent of it, but till we know more it's all just a guess anyway.

-Dave

[NeuroticFish]

Jack confirmed they will make their upcoming hardware wallet fully Open Source from hardware design to software:

~snip~
even if they say that it's going to be fully open-source, I don't think everything will be made public. When the upcoming Trezor device was discussed, I remember finding in the announcement a sentence that says something along the lines of almost completely open-source.   

Indeed, if they make everything open source other business(es) may profit from the free information and become competitors. So making everything public/open source has the potential to hurt own business. So various details may actually be hidden.

However, they are advancing, and they are moving fast. I'm no longer skeptic, I'm officially impressed.

[dkbit98]

Square recently posted new job applications for Senior Engineering Manager who can make their upcoming Square Hardware Wallet, and for Hardware Wallet Business Lead to operate their business model.
They have very optimistic goal of creating hardware wallet device for 100 million people, and they are hiring experienced people who can even work remotely.
Compared that with Ledger that sold around 3 million devices so far, and Trezor who sold over 1 million devices (I can't find exact numbers) you see how high goal is set for Square with 100 million devices.

Job Description
We're making a hardware wallet for the next 100M bitcoin users. Our goal is economic empowerment -- starting with bringing easy-to-use, reliable self-custody to a global audience. We're assembling a team deeply experienced in an extremely wide range of disciplines, including business, operations, design, software, hardware, security, and so many other aspects of product delivery. Come build the future of crypto-enabling hardware with us!

[SFR10]

Compared that with Ledger that sold around 3 million devices so far, and Trezor who sold over 1 million devices (I can't find exact numbers) you see how high goal is set for Square with 100 million devices.

If you combine the active users of both Twitter and Square, their goal roughly equates to 2/5^th of those userbases.
^{- IMO, it's a realistic goal [despite having huge respect for both Trezor and Ledger, if anyone can do it, it's them].}

[Pmalek]

They are expecting a huge increase in hardware wallet users and much bigger adoption rate if their goal is to mass-produce 100 million units. If the figures in sources like this one or this are correct, Bitcoin has gone above 100 million users worldwide. I think only a small percentage of those use hardware wallets. Exchanges, mobile wallets, and non-custodial services still occupy a significant part of the market.

Even if had 200 or 500 million crypto users in a few years, producing 100 million devices might be too optimistic of a goal. But I am still glad that they are aiming high and hoping that one day we will reach those numbers.       

[The Sceptical Chymist]

However, to bring more people into crypto/bitcoin, it is very likely that companies can't force new users to be responsible for their keys by themselves.

Ugh, that's like saying "it's for their own good", words that have been uttered by countless governments and corporations with malicious intent--as an example, take a look at all of the silly drug laws that exist around the world.  You might not agree with me on that, but it's certainly an example of huge powers restricting freedom under the guise of keeping people safe....from themselves.

If people want to own crypto and don't want to keep it in their own wallet and be responsible for their own private keys, they could always just store it on an exchange (which I obviously don't recommend).  No hardware wallet needed.

Indeed, if they make everything open source other business(es) may profit from the free information and become competitors. So making everything public/open source has the potential to hurt own business. So various details may actually be hidden.

I can't argue with that, even if I don't like it.  It's kind of a paradox, I guess.  The HW manufacturer is making wallets so crypto users can keep their funds safe, but in order to feel completely safe you ought to be able to examine the code--which the manufacturer isn't able to provide because of the issue you mentioned.

[aoluain]

They are expecting a huge increase in hardware wallet users and much bigger adoption rate if their goal is to mass-produce 100 million units. If the figures in sources like this one or this are correct, Bitcoin has gone above 100 million users worldwide. I think only a small percentage of those use hardware wallets. Exchanges, mobile wallets, and non-custodial services still occupy a significant part of the market.

Even if had 200 or 500 million crypto users in a few years, producing 100 million devices might be too optimistic of a goal. But I am still glad that they are aiming high and hoping that one day we will reach those numbers.      

I saw a tweet about Square looking for a developer a few days ago. I think they are
setting themselves up for a big influx in crypto adoption and they are possibly going
to target those who are currently using custodial services. 100,000,000 devices is massive.

There are definitely big developments afoot and they have big plans for the future
and crypto will play a big role,

I just saw on a seperate point that they announced plans to acquire Afterpay for
$29,000,000!

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/01/tech/square-afterpay-intl-hnk/index.html

[mk4]

Indeed, if they make everything open source other business(es) may profit from the free information and become competitors. So making everything public/open source has the potential to hurt own business. So various details may actually be hidden.

However, they are advancing, and they are moving fast. I'm no longer skeptic, I'm officially impressed.

Yes, but I think the open-source everything move from them is for them to win both the masses, and as well as the current Bitcoiners. They could simply brand the hardware wallet as something that's affiliated to the ever-so-famous Cash App, and that could easily easily offset the lost sales from those huge minority that's going to build everything from scratch.

[NeuroticFish]

huge minority that's going to build everything from scratch.

I was not thinking at hobbyists as a threat for the business.
I was thinking to another business - maybe in China, for example - that can copy this and sell at less than half the price the same product, just branded with Ca5h App (based on your example).
But maybe I'm thinking too far. I don't know...

[mk4]

I was not thinking at hobbyists as a threat for the business.
I was thinking to another business - maybe in China, for example - that can copy this and sell at less than half the price the same product, just branded with Ca5h App (based on your example).
But maybe I'm thinking too far. I don't know...

Hmm that makes sense. But I guess whether they make it open-source or not some Chinese businessmen are going to probably copy it anyway if it gets mainstream enough. Just like how we have fake iPhones despite Apple not being open source. Tech startups and tech businesses in general probably start businesses already expecting China to copy them at some point in the future.

[dkbit98]

Hmm that makes sense. But I guess whether they make it open-source or not some Chinese businessmen are going to probably copy it anyway if it gets mainstream enough. Just like how we have fake iPhones despite Apple not being open source. Tech startups and tech businesses in general probably start businesses already expecting China to copy them at some point in the future.

I am following all hardware wallet market condition and so many of them popped up (and still popping up) that are claiming they are open source and coming from China that I would not be surprised to see something like this.
Some of them are mostly based on Trezor code BitHD, Prokey, OneKey, or Keystone (ex Cobo), HyperMate... but note that open source doesn't mean that something is automatically good.
Chinese population is over 1,4 Billion people, that is more than enough for Jack's dream of 100 Million HW owners, and if something like this happens to Trezor, imagine what will happen with Square 平方 HW