El Salvador has become the first country to make #Bitcoin legal tender! 🇸🇻

[Who is John Galt?]

A bitcoin ATM card that will allow the holder to withdraw at zero fees from merchants.

On the one hand, this, of course, will simplify payment transactions for citizens, but, on the other hand, why is such a centralized solution fundamentally better than Chivo Wallet, which, as far as I understand, already allows you to pay instantly? In any case, this is no longer bitcoin, but a kind of analogue of a centralized bank, in which users actually operate not with bitcoins, but with some kind of centralized bank tokens that are formally tied to bitcoin. Which, in my opinion, is not the same thing. It would be nice not to lose what makes bitcoin the bitcoin in the pursuit of convenience.

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[Ryu_Ar1]

https://decrypt.co/125739/give-bitcoin-poor-economist-nayib-bukele

I read quite interesting news about El Savador the other day because even though they are one of the countries that can be said to be quite good in terms of bitcoin development for their country, there are still those who consider this a failure.
UCA El Salvador University professor Rafael Lemus said President Nayib Bukele's Bitcoin purchase did not produce benefits for the country and should be put to better use.
But apart from this, it is quite natural because even though it is El Savador but of course when it comes to cons there must be. On the other hand this is also possible because if you look at some of the news reports about remittances in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies sent to El Salvador fell 17.8 percent during the first two months of 2023 compared to 2022.

[JayJuanGee]

...Latin-American countries should copy its model for true financial prosperity.
...

It is impossible to copy the way of El Salvador, everything is changing in time. What is possible for the first is hardly achievable for next ones. And in another hand what is hard for the first can be very easy for those who will walk by his steps. All is yet on an early stage and there are examples of other ways of adopting bitcoin like in Brazil, and we haven't seen which way will become more productive. It is not mandatory to do strictly the same as El Salvador, there could be different ways of bitcoin adoption, and IMO main thing is that legislation should be permissive and other things will go by their way.

I agree with you jokers10 that it is not going to be the same in any other country, even though there could be a lot of similarities, yet I would hardly suggest that any kind of meaningful solution would necessarily need to involve more of a shitcoin angle, as some other countries seem to be more "receptive" to shitcoins within their approach.. which seems to be the Brazilian comparison that you are alluding to.

So for sure, there could be a lot modeling that might take place in regards to what El Salvador did, but then at the same time hoping to learn from any kinds of mistakes that El Salvador made along the way.. and of course, if there are some pieces of information that show that certain international institutions (such as banking and governments.. such as IMF, WB and USA) have been hostile to the El Salvador actions, it would be more difficult for future countries to plead ignorance in regards to the hostility, but they could still take a somewhat aggressive stance in terms of asserting that they are a sovereign nation and they have rights to assert their sovereignty - in spite of the various warnings that have been issued by various PTB institutions subsequent to seeing various ways that El Salvador had chosen to thumb its nose at various PTB institutions... so in that sense, the level of backlash could end up playing out differently with other countries .. since El Salvador had even given a playbook for the powers that be to attempt to prepare themselves for any other countries that might want to try to go down that path..

I think that one of the confirmations that an Indonesian official (Governor) is going to be speaking at the Bitcoin Magazine conference in Miami in May.. so it will be interesting to see if there might be any announcements related to some of the bitcoin-related efforts that are being made in other countries (and of course, there had been a recent announcement of a bitcoin conference in Indonesia in October of this year, too).. and of course, there will be some representation of El Salvador at that conference too  (at least Max and Stacy Herbert, but there may be others representing El Salvador at that conference too?)...

[Ryu_Ar1]

I think that one of the confirmations that an Indonesian official (Governor) is going to be speaking at the Bitcoin Magazine conference in Miami in May.. so it will be interesting to see if there might be any announcements related to some of the bitcoin-related efforts that are being made in other countries (and of course, there had been a recent announcement of a bitcoin conference in Indonesia in October of this year, too).. and of course, there will be some representation of El Salvador at that conference too  (at least Max and Stacy Herbert, but there may be others representing El Salvador at that conference too?)...

A little off topic but indeed this is even trending on social media for my country (Indonesia).
He is one of the governors for West Java which is indeed for now he is also one of the tech-savvy governors in Indonesia and indeed for his focus this time is to discuss the dynamics of bitcoin in West Java which is the region he leads.

On the other hand, this is actually also discussed in several other topics discussed like regulation, investment, economy, ecology, energy, literacy, mining, innovation, journalism, and issues in community circles such as ordinal protocols, halving, etc.
This is off topic from Elsavador, I apologize, but as an Indonesian, especially a West Java citizen, I am quite proud of this

[JayJuanGee]

I think that one of the confirmations that an Indonesian official (Governor) is going to be speaking at the Bitcoin Magazine conference in Miami in May.. so it will be interesting to see if there might be any announcements related to some of the bitcoin-related efforts that are being made in other countries (and of course, there had been a recent announcement of a bitcoin conference in Indonesia in October of this year, too).. and of course, there will be some representation of El Salvador at that conference too  (at least Max and Stacy Herbert, but there may be others representing El Salvador at that conference too?)...

A little off topic but indeed this is even trending on social media for my country (Indonesia).
He is one of the governors for West Java which is indeed for now he is also one of the tech-savvy governors in Indonesia and indeed for his focus this time is to discuss the dynamics of bitcoin in West Java which is the region he leads.

On the other hand, this is actually also discussed in several other topics discussed related to regulation, investment, economy, ecology, energy, literacy, mining, innovation, journalism, and issues in community circles such as ordinal protocols, halving, etc.
This is off topic from Elsavador, I apologize, but as an Indonesian, especially a West Java citizen, I am quite proud of this

I agree that the idea of delving specifically into what Indonesia might be doing is somewhat off topic for this thread, but I doubt that we are so limited as to restrict ourselves from engaging in some comparisons/contrasts regarding how El Salvador may have been influencing other countries.. or the extent to which some countries might be modeling on El Salvador or learning from El Salvador... so far I have not participated in any of the Indonesian related threads that you are saying exist out there.. so maybe I just need to venture out in other parts of the forum by use of the search function a wee bit or maybe I will see those threads plastered all over the forum's main pages (since you did not provide any links)?   

[jokers10]

I agree with you jokers10 that it is not going to be the same in any other country, even though there could be a lot of similarities, yet I would hardly suggest that any kind of meaningful solution would necessarily need to involve more of a shitcoin angle, as some other countries seem to be more "receptive" to shitcoins within their approach.. which seems to be the Brazilian comparison that you are alluding to.
...

Well, no. What I'm alluding is a different kind of bitcoin adoption. El Salvador made bitcoin a legal tender and this imposes increased obligations, bitcoin operations become mandatory in the country. It is a fast way, but risks are higher as well.

Brazil chose another way of bitcoin adoption, they allowed it's wide usage. So you can choose yourself if you are interested in accepting it as a payment and if you are interested in paying with it. It is a slow way. But I believe people will find advantages of using bitcoin and will start doing so anyway. And I prefer the situation when they do so because they understand that it is better and choose bitcoin because know its benefits. Maybe I'm too romantic but I like the idea that people will find out benefits of bitcoin and it will conquer the financial world not fast but thoroughly. And main thing is not to interfere with it. Governments which allow using bitcoin are on the right side, IMO of any kind, like El Salvador or like Brazil.

[JayJuanGee]

I agree with you jokers10 that it is not going to be the same in any other country, even though there could be a lot of similarities, yet I would hardly suggest that any kind of meaningful solution would necessarily need to involve more of a shitcoin angle, as some other countries seem to be more "receptive" to shitcoins within their approach.. which seems to be the Brazilian comparison that you are alluding to.
...

Well, no. What I'm alluding is a different kind of bitcoin adoption. El Salvador made bitcoin a legal tender and this imposes increased obligations, bitcoin operations become mandatory in the country. It is a fast way, but risks are higher as well.

Brazil chose another way of bitcoin adoption, they allowed it's wide usage. So you can choose yourself if you are interested in accepting it as a payment and if you are interested in paying with it. It is a slow way. But I believe people will find advantages of using bitcoin and will start doing so anyway. And I prefer the situation when they do so because they understand that it is better and choose bitcoin because know its benefits. Maybe I'm too romantic but I like the idea that people will find out benefits of bitcoin and it will conquer the financial world not fast but thoroughly. And main thing is not to interfere with it. Governments which allow using bitcoin are on the right side, IMO of any kind, like El Salvador or like Brazil.

Ok... I don't really disagree with anything that you said, and thanks for the clarification because I had not realized that you were coming at the topic from that angle.

I do believe that El Salvador gets a bit of a bad rap in terms of the supposed "imposition" of legal tender on "the people".. .. yet at the same time, I doubt that it is a BIG deal to argue about in terms of some of the various differences of opinion regarding what role "the govt" might play in terms of creating structures and the extent to which those structures are voluntary or sufficiently "free of impositions." 

We agree with the punchline that there are likely going to be a variety of approaches, and likely we are going to agree that the approaches are not even locked-in because there are likely ongoing trade-offs along the way and even adaptations (and learning) to local conditions that sometimes might end up contributing to differing approaches that might be forced to evolve, and sometimes we might not agree with some of the approaches, or we might find that some approaches are more friendly towards "freedom" - however, we personally define such.

[LDL]

https://twitter.com/maxkeiser/status/1649601914412187648?s=19

EI Salvador
EI Salvador's Government's decision to make Bitcoin as Legal Tender
Chivo wallet to $30 sign-up bonus only for EI Salvador's people.
Tax free
Bonding
EI Salvador would buy one bitcoin everyday... Bukele...
Educational Programs for Bitcoin

Finally bitcoin is winning in EI Salvador.

[Doan9269]

El Salvador University professor Rafael Lemus said President Nayib Bukele's Bitcoin purchase did not produce benefits for the country and should be put to better use.

What other benefit should we expect from El-Savador through bitcoin adoption than all these we've been seing, aren't they good enough to serve the purpose of benefits, what else do we expect? If the professor himself althrough his years in academic research line couldn't bring out something tangible to help the entire world then I think bitcoin and Satoshi were far better than him because their influence is not only felt within a particular place, but all around the world, if you look at El-Savador before bitcoin legal tender adoption and after it, you could realize a tremendous positive changes in every economic, social and political aspect of El-Savador.

But apart from this, it is quite natural because even though it is El Savador but of course when it comes to cons there must be. On the other hand this is also possible because if you look at some of the news reports about remittances in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies sent to El Salvador fell 17.8 percent during the first two months of 2023 compared to 2022.

There's nothing that has pros without it cons, but we we compare the two together, we will discover that one is more weightier than the other and same goes to the bitcoin adoption in El-Savador, it has done them good than the disadvantages they may now think its showing up, the major idea has been felt which is the solution to financial crisis by giving us freedom away from centralized authorities.

[Mr.corol]

El Salvador is going to join the Bitcoin Racing League for the first time.


https://twitter.com/bitcoin_racing/status/1649832086419697665?t=6BUQ5RUA3ZWY1ckpnZrLSw&s=19

[Popkon6]

El Salvador is going to join the Bitcoin Racing League for the first time.


https://twitter.com/bitcoin_racing/status/1649832086419697665?t=6BUQ5RUA3ZWY1ckpnZrLSw&s=19

Bitcoin acceptance is mentioned and the racing system as a broadcast of Bitcoin is very dear to me. TV channels will telecast live and billions of viewers will watch the game and here is a promotion of Bitcoin. Through this racing game, the message of Bitcoin will reach billions of people and will increase people's interest to take the initiative to invest.

[delfastTions]

Well, no. What I'm alluding is a different kind of bitcoin adoption. El Salvador made bitcoin a legal tender and this imposes increased obligations, bitcoin operations become mandatory in the country. It is a fast way, but risks are higher as well.

Brazil chose another way of bitcoin adoption, they allowed it's wide usage. So you can choose yourself if you are interested in accepting it as a payment and if you are interested in paying with it. It is a slow way. But I believe people will find advantages of using bitcoin and will start doing so anyway. And I prefer the situation when they do so because they understand that it is better and choose bitcoin because know its benefits. Maybe I'm too romantic but I like the idea that people will find out benefits of bitcoin and it will conquer the financial world not fast but thoroughly. And main thing is not to interfere with it. Governments which allow using bitcoin are on the right side, IMO of any kind, like El Salvador or like Brazil.

You are probably right that the adoption of bitcoin as a means of payment is very different in different countries. 
Probably El Salvador and Brazil, these are two options for accepting bitcoin, respectively fast and slow.  I don't even know what the government of any country to do with the option of accepting or banning the use of bitcoin. 
But the fact is that bitcoin was invented and in 14 years has spread so widely in the world that no government can afford to completely ignore it.  Even China and USA.  I think even North Korea.  And all the states anyway after some time will be forced to make a choice in terms of regulating the circulation of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.  I think it is likely that the option chosen by Brazil, i.e. the gradual introduction of bitcoin payments, is a more correct choice for countries where the population is hundreds of millions of people.  And for a small country like El Salvador, what Bukele did with the quick and direct legalization of bitcoin is also a good decision. 
However, time will tell which option is better.  And the indicator can only be an accelerated growth in the well-being of the middle strata of the population, but unfortunately there is too much politics and falsehood in such statistics. 
In any case, it will become clear only in 10 years.

[Wiwo]

I agree with you jokers10 that it is not going to be the same in any other country, even though there could be a lot of similarities, yet I would hardly suggest that any kind of meaningful solution would necessarily need to involve more of a shitcoin angle, as some other countries seem to be more "receptive" to shitcoins within their approach.. which seems to be the Brazilian comparison that you are alluding to.
...

Well, no. What I'm alluding is a different kind of bitcoin adoption. El Salvador made bitcoin a legal tender and this imposes increased obligations, bitcoin operations become mandatory in the country. It is a fast way, but risks are higher as well.

Brazil chose another way of bitcoin adoption, they allowed it's wide usage. So you can choose yourself if you are interested in accepting it as a payment and if you are interested in paying with it. It is a slow way. But I believe people will find advantages of using bitcoin and will start doing so anyway. And I prefer the situation when they do so because they understand that it is better and choose bitcoin because know its benefits. Maybe I'm too romantic but I like the idea that people will find out benefits of bitcoin and it will conquer the financial world not fast but thoroughly. And main thing is not to interfere with it. Governments which allow using bitcoin are on the right side, IMO of any kind, like El Salvador or like Brazil.

Ok... I don't really disagree with anything that you said, and thanks for the clarification because I had not realized that you were coming at the topic from that angle.

I do believe that El Salvador gets a bit of a bad rap in terms of the supposed "imposition" of legal tender on "the people".. .. yet at the same time, I doubt that it is a BIG deal to argue about in terms of some of the various differences of opinion regarding what role "the govt" might play in terms of creating structures and the extent to which those structures are voluntary or sufficiently "free of impositions." 

We agree with the punchline that there are likely going to be a variety of approaches, and likely we are going to agree that the approaches are not even locked-in because there are likely ongoing trade-offs along the way and even adaptations (and learning) to local conditions that sometimes might end up contributing to differing approaches that might be forced to evolve, and sometimes we might not agree with some of the approaches, or we might find that some approaches are more friendly towards "freedom" - however, we personally define such.

The punchline for the government right now is to create a payment system aside from the chivo wallet,  let their allow independent bitcoin payment processors to make the financial market flexible for Bitcoin fiat processing within the country, since not many El Salvador citizens are knowledgeable about Bitcoin and how to conveniently make payment with bitcoin since is a legal tender El Salvador 🇸🇻.

I won't say that the government through the president NYIB BUKELE pushed Bitcoin too hard on the people but then we must know how weak and slow some government projects can be so the president pushed it all out to increase the general adoption of Bitcoin and also created an enabling environment for it citizens to use bitcoin with less risk, I watched on youtube where El Salvador already build a Bitcoin mining powered with green energy.

There have been a lot of efforts from the government to push out education on Bitcoin since it is still a relatively new industry and the need to take 100% education in that direction to help lessen the risk associated with Bitcoin usage, but the only few issues faced by users of bitcoin through the chivo wallet is high fees and loads of unconfirmed transactions and network failure in the government own wallet (CHIVO).

But if independent payment systems are allowed to develop their financial tools that could give the citizens low fees and faster transactions, this is important to help lessen the traffic on the chivol wallets and also help to strengthen the entire payments within El Salvador, so there is need for the blockchain developers to take advantage of the young cryptocurrencies industry in the El Salvador as a region that is mostly regarded as the most bitcoin-friendly country aside from central Africa Republic.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Well, no. What I'm alluding is a different kind of bitcoin adoption. El Salvador made bitcoin a legal tender and this imposes increased obligations, bitcoin operations become mandatory in the country. It is a fast way, but risks are higher as well.

Let's get it straight here, El-Savador adoption of bitcoin as a legal tender is not mandated for use by any citizen, they have the opportunity to either engage the use of US dollars or bitcoin for their transactions and payments, Nayib Bukele is not an authoritative president that impulse bitcoin on the people, he make the two altogether an alternative to serve everyone base on their need of interest.

Brazil chose another way of bitcoin adoption, they allowed it's wide usage. So you can choose yourself if you are interested in accepting it as a payment and if you are interested in paying with it.

In Brazil, bitcoin is not a legal tender, in El-Savador it is, which means there's any probability of anything coming at anytime that can utter the use of bitcoin maybe in the future at anytime in Brazil,but we have known the stand with El-Savador because it's a legal tender there.

It is a slow way.

Bitcoin payment is not slow, the reason why bitcoin lightning network was introduced to solve scalability issue, also you can pump your fee and adjust it to your desired rate.

[Framelover]

South America getting in is a pretty good move, although El Salvador is a small country, it will still make a difference for the market if the head of the government is the one that actively supports it.

I agree that South America getting involved in global markets is a positive step forward. Although El Salvador may be a small country, it can still have a significant impact on the market if the government actively supports it.

[Weezenhofnar]

El Salvador's adoption of Bitcoin as legal tender is a historic moment for the cryptocurrency world. It remains to be seen how successful the implementation will be, but it could pave the way for other countries to follow suit.

[Altryist]

We agree with the punchline that there are likely going to be a variety of approaches, and likely we are going to agree that the approaches are not even locked-in because there are likely ongoing trade-offs along the way and even adaptations (and learning) to local conditions that sometimes might end up contributing to differing approaches that might be forced to evolve, and sometimes we might not agree with some of the approaches, or we might find that some approaches are more friendly towards "freedom" - however, we personally define such.

Now we have too little data to analyze this issue, since we actually have only one country in which bitcoin is recognized as a means of payment, but when we will have two, five, ten or more countries where bitcoin is recognized as a means of payment, but in each of these countries will have their own rules, or some exceptions, only then we will be able to evaluate which option is better and which is worse, because we will have something to compare with. Now Bukele is acting as he thinks is right, he does not have a proven algorithm that will bring a guaranteed result, he needs to look for the right solutions, maybe right now, as a pioneer, he will create this algorithm, for new countries who want to go this way, to understand what problems they will have collide.

[JayJuanGee]

In any case, it will become clear only in 10 years.

Sure a lot of developments are going to happen in bitcoin in the next 10 years, just like there have been a lot of developments in the last 14 years, yet bitcoin is already a success, and it is already a paradigm shifting invention that has changed the world forever whether people like it or not.. whether friends like it or not and whether enemies like it or not.

Sure, there are a lot of ways that various governments, status quo rich, financial institutions and others can fuck around with their level of embracing bitcoin or refusing to embrace it, to try to control it or to try to manipulate it, and sure everyone has a right to try to break bitcoin to attack it or to invest into it.. and to figure out his/her level of allocation into investing time, energies, finances and psychology into bitcoin, and likely those who are attempting to spend time on bitcoin and to work with it.. to try to understand it better are likely going to profit more from their involvement in it rather than those who are going out of their way to ignore it, fail/refuse to learn from it, fail/refuse to invest into it, getting distracted by shitcoins and other bitcoin naysaying activities.

So any of us (whether government representatives, institutions or individuals) who are spending a certain amount of time investing into bitcoin are likely going to advance from such decisions - even if it could take quite a few number of years to play out.. and the developments are likely going to continue in a large number of exponential and compounding ways since we are still quite early - and people hardly know shit about bitcoin, but think that they got it figured out.. in terms of erroneously considering bitcoin to be way more mature than it is and also considering bitcoin to be way further along in its UPpity trajectory than it is.

[delfastTions]

In any case, it will become clear only in 10 years.

Sure a lot of developments are going to happen in bitcoin in the next 10 years, just like there have been a lot of developments in the last 14 years, yet bitcoin is already a success, and it is already a paradigm shifting invention that has changed the world forever whether people like it or not.. whether friends like it or not and whether enemies like it or not.

Of course, the path from the invention of Satoshi and buying pizza for 10,000 BTC to being recognized as the state currency (even if only in one country so far) is a long way. 
If you and I, even without any reliable information, just think about the decision of Nayib Bukele to make BTC legal tender in his country, then we will understand that this is a very logical decision.  There is no national currency in El Salvador.  There is only $ in circulation.  It is clear that if El Salvador would issue its own national currency, it would immediately undergo hyperinflation, as happens in such cases in almost all small countries. 
And the independence of the whole country from the dollar, at least partially, would be desirable for a responsible president of such a country.  This is the right position and the responsible government of any country, which should control the financial turnover in the country.  His choice fell on BTC, which is now able to provide even micropayments with the help of LN, for a hamburger or for a cup of coffee.  A bold decision, but I believe it is correct, it is a much more competent decision, even taking into account the unstable exchange rate BTC, because the inflation of his own currency would still be much more catastrophic, an order of magnitude more! 
So Bukele and the Parliament of El Salvador made a very competent and modern decision based on the interests of maintaining the country's sovereignty.

[odolvlobo]

The IRS has made an odd change to its policy regarding the treatment of Bitcoin:

The Department of the Treasury and the Internal Revenue Service are aware that certain foreign jurisdictions have enacted laws that characterize Bitcoin as legal tender. Thus, the sentence in the Background section of Notice 2014-21 stating that virtual currency does not have legal tender status in any jurisdiction is no longer accurate as to Bitcoin. In addition, the Background section of Notice 2014-21 may be misinterpreted as overstating the similarity between convertible virtual currency and “real” currency because the use of convertible virtual currency, including Bitcoin, to perform “real” currency functions is limited.2 Accordingly, Notice 2014-21 is modified by revising the third sentence in the first paragraph of the Background section to read as follows:

In certain contexts, virtual currency may serve one or more of the functions of “real” currency -- i.e., the coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender, circulates, and is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance -- but the use of virtual currency to perform “real” currency functions is limited.

This change to the Background section of Notice 2014-21 does not affect the answers to the FAQs set forth in section 4 of Notice 2014-21, including Q&A-2, which concludes that convertible virtual currency is not treated as currency that could generate foreign currency gain or loss for U.S. federal tax purposes.

In short, it says, "We recognize that Bitcoin is legal tender in some countries, so it is a real currency and not a virtual currency, but we don't like that, so we are going to ignore the law."