Big companies finally had enough of the excessive tax

[iv4n]

@iv4n question is a must for understanding the system

gov + big corporations forms the Corpostate and this is the main governor in many places (the first I saw using this expression was @notsofast on twitter)

As an example: in Brazil one of the biggest donors for the biggest 2 opposing political parties is Itaú, a huge bank.

regarding @traderethereum comment: some corporations will even prefer to pay the fine than the taxes, specially if judgements are slow and they can buy the fiscals

I do understand the system! And great add-on for the discussion, some corporations/government officials (I must add official in the same basket) rather pay fines, simply because fines are slow and low, sort of speaking! An example is one guy in my town who robbed the town treasury (or to say nicer, he found a way to suck money out with help of some companies)... he was accused of millions of euros and he was convicted... sentence was 6 months in house arrest and few thousand euros! This is just one of the examples from recent, but sadly, there are too many similar examples!

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Sure. If you do not restrict large companies and governments, they turn into a disaster. High taxes are a disaster, as are companies that completely avoid them. But governments turn into a disaster in the same way: if the government collects taxes but does nothing good, and the other extreme is that the government collects too many taxes, does something good, but at the same time completely restricts our rights and freedoms. It is very difficult to find a balance in solving this problem, which is why it is always relevant and discussed.

I get that finding a balance in this fucked up system is very hard! But in my head (as in crypto), things are simple to understand 2+2=4! But when politicians and corporations do the math you don't know where is the start end where is the end!

[mv1986]

One effect of the high taxes: Maybe the high taxes a meant to discourage Gamblers from playing a lot because this pandemic can turn users into addicts and this is one way to slow the process down.

The other effect from these high rates is going completely anonymous which means a missed opportunity for the government to collect revenue from gamblers as they will find alternative places to play the games they love.

In our country, our government is actually obviously promoting gambling since they could get lots of taxes from it which will benefit the corrupt officials. Instead of discouraging gamblers, they see it as another opportunity to gain funds. Tax is actually part of gambling, and it honestly supports a huge part of the economy, so no matter how heavy it is to pay huge taxes, we should still take responsible for it.

If your government also warns the people about the danger of playing gambling, that will help people realize the risk and play gambling carefully. Otherwise, the government will see that many people will be addicted to gambling sooner or later and if that happens, they need to spend more money to cure them. Yes, tax is part of the economy, and we should pay that tax as a citizen. The gambling industry in your country and another country also contribute to the growth of the country.

You really think so?

Do you know how many warnings there are on cigarette packages about potential cancer and what not? It doesn't really bother anyone. I have never heard that someone quit smoking because the government warns smokers about cancer and other illnesses.

I don't think warning about gambling will prevent anyone from playing. I think more real life stories of people who really got into trouble sharing their experiences could help, but even then it is still everyone's own decision.

It is somewhat pointless if they would be keeping on making out warnings but at least they are really showing off some concern but actually they dont really care at all.Those were just complimentary or some form of formality just to make themselves that they do really care but actually theyre not.

If government is really been that in concern into their citizens health then they wont really be allowing thing in the first place.

This just really proves out that tax and income would really be their main priority rather than into other health problems or concerns.

Right and it is the same reaction you can see when governments are asked why drinking alcohol is allowed but smoking weed is not. They start talking trash, give false reasons and totally bogus explanations. Because they know it doesn't make sense and alcohol is a hell of a drug, but the lobby is too strong and the whole gastronomy sector is too big. So they just prefer talking trash over telling the truth. It's similar with gambling. They can't run a lottery organized by the state and at the same time prohibit gambling because it is dangerous.

[Lanatsa]

No matter how high the place taxes on gamblers winnings it can't still discourage them from participating in gambling because it's a source of livelyhood for some citizens in developing nation's. Most of those gamblers are jobless and have no other source of survival outside gambling so making gambling tax high might not be the best approach to discourage gamblers

For some local gambling places then you would really be finding those who are just small time gamblers but to believe that majority of them are the ones who do have money to spent on or simply those financially capabled so its really hard to believe on what you are saying on here.

If taxes would be imposed or would be taken part of its gamblers then it cant really be felt that much since it would really be just be divided.

When it comes to taxation then it would really be varying on the government itself on how much would really be imposed on because not all would
really be having on the same jurisdiction when it comes to this.

[harizen]

Maybe they will hide some income and not report it to their government because of the high taxes.

This is true that business owners have options to avoid tax. And guess what, there's a legal way of it called tax avoidance.

However that requires critical steps so instead of doing that, owners are complying with the usual and common process to avoid the hassle.

Tax avoidance is legal , Tax evasion is illegal.

[KTChampions]

This is true that business owners have options to avoid tax. And guess what, there's a legal way of it called tax avoidance.

However that requires critical steps so instead of doing that, owners are complying with the usual and common process to avoid the hassle.

Tax avoidance is legal , Tax evasion is illegal.

Yes it is. But I think you will agree that the situation in which a large corporation does business in the country and legally completely evades tax is a wrong state of affairs. Even if it is completely legal. I think the loopholes that allow this to happen should be closed.

[tabas]

Maybe they will hide some income and not report it to their government because of the high taxes.

That's their other way to lessen the tax that they should be obligated to pay. It's been happening with different businesses and that's the reality that the government can't chase.
They might have some of those businesses that might not pay the right tax but still they'll pay but with lesser tax due to their low income declaration.

[chaser15]

Even if it is completely legal. I think the loopholes that allow this to happen should be closed.

There are no loopholes in my opinion as I search about it, tax avoidance has legal ways to done properly. And in case the government will know this, it won't be subject to closure since that business who do some tax avoidance still comply with paying tax. They don't evade it.

It's a famous practice of some businesses today for years especially those in the middle tier. As long as these businesses are updated with their tax commitment, they won't be subject to closure even they are doing tax avoidance since they don't evade it.

[Sanitough]

Even if it is completely legal. I think the loopholes that allow this to happen should be closed.

There are no loopholes in my opinion as I search about it, tax avoidance has legal ways to done properly. And in case the government will know this, it won't be subject to closure since that business who do some tax avoidance still comply with paying tax. They don't evade it.

It's a famous practice of some businesses today for years especially those in the middle tier. As long as these businesses are updated with their tax commitment, they won't be subject to closure even they are doing tax avoidance since they don't evade it.

I agree with that, it's called art in accounting and accountants are really good at that.  It's done in a legal way that's why it's important to find a smart accountant so a business would be able to minimize its tax liability.

[traderethereum]

Maybe they will hide some income and not report it to their government because of the high taxes.

This is true that business owners have options to avoid tax. And guess what, there's a legal way of it called tax avoidance.

However that requires critical steps so instead of doing that, owners are complying with the usual and common process to avoid the hassle.

Tax avoidance is legal , Tax evasion is illegal.

If they do tax evasion, it will make them in trouble because they try to break the regulation and end with their license revoked.
If they can tell the government about their income, they can get a tax deduction not to pay a big taxing because their income does not reach the government's limit.
It will be better for the casino to tell the truth based on the real situation and condition of their casino, so the government will not think they are trying to avoid tax avoidance.

Maybe they will hide some income and not report it to their government because of the high taxes.

That's their other way to lessen the tax that they should be obligated to pay. It's been happening with different businesses and that's the reality that the government can't chase.
They might have some of those businesses that might not pay the right tax but still they'll pay but with lesser tax due to their low income declaration.

Somehow, the government can find if something wrong happens and if the casino does not pay the taxes based on their income, the government will trying to chase them and make sure the casino will pay.
I am sure the casino will have a side business besides having the casino business because they have much money to have or create the other business.

[l3pox]

<...>

great points @iv4n
do you see any way out? where would you start in terms of reforming the system?

I think crypto can be a game-changer of course

but would start here by descentralizing decisions, giving more power to city > state > country instead of the opposite
probably having smaller taxes for income, taxes on consuming specially for superfluous stuff and UBI to give everyone a cover to be out of poverty line and be able to pursue education and opportunities (see Andrew Yang ideas, would be interesting to see it applied somehwere)

[KTChampions]

Even if it is completely legal. I think the loopholes that allow this to happen should be closed.

There are no loopholes in my opinion as I search about it, tax avoidance has legal ways to done properly. And in case the government will know this, it won't be subject to closure since that business who do some tax avoidance still comply with paying tax. They don't evade it.

It's a famous practice of some businesses today for years especially those in the middle tier. As long as these businesses are updated with their tax commitment, they won't be subject to closure even they are doing tax avoidance since they don't evade it.

Are you sure about this? Recently i read an article where it was shown that Microsoft working in Iceland paid exactly 0 dollars (in Iceland). I understand that Microsoft is an international corporation and it paid taxes somewhere else, but this is unlikely to suit the residents and the government of Iceland.

[tabas]

Maybe they will hide some income and not report it to their government because of the high taxes.

That's their other way to lessen the tax that they should be obligated to pay. It's been happening with different businesses and that's the reality that the government can't chase.
They might have some of those businesses that might not pay the right tax but still they'll pay but with lesser tax due to their low income declaration.

Somehow, the government can find if something wrong happens and if the casino does not pay the taxes based on their income, the government will trying to chase them and make sure the casino will pay.
I am sure the casino will have a side business besides having the casino business because they have much money to have or create the other business.

Yes, they may find it out but maybe that's too late for them or they will just impose a penalty which is also payable and easy to be done by that company that will have its sanction.
It's just a process that will keep going, a cycle and repetitively done by those casino companies that have been doing it for years to save a lot of money from their taxes.

[johhnyUA]

What do you think ?

This is too much for common sense, i think. I mean that this point "“Excise duty on betting at 20% of the amount will be wagered,”" is beyond good and evil. In all normal countries casino pay tax for their income and in some EU countries gambler pays VAT from what he won. Not from total wager amount, this would be too stupid.

[jostorres]

No matter how high the place taxes on gamblers winnings it can't still discourage them from participating in gambling because it's a source of livelyhood for some citizens in developing nation's. Most of those gamblers are jobless and have no other source of survival outside gambling so making gambling tax high might not be the best approach to discourage gamblers

I always find it funny that higher taxes will discourage people from gambling because I put myself in that situation and I guess it would only enable me to find alternatives and illegal means of gambling such that I can avoid those taxes and even save the small tax governments would be getting if they imposed sensible taxes.

Yes gambling should be discouraged and taxes are one way of doing it but how do you expect people to pay 20%, that's insane and quite illogical, to be honest. If you put 100% tax on gambling it doesn't mean people will stop gambling completely, they will just find alternatives because the government forced it on them, leaving them no other choice.

[Silberman]

There is also yet another possibility, when the tax on something is too high like on liquor or cigarettes people will find products that did not paid those taxes and that are cheaper because of it, this is why governments need to be careful about how they tax something as too high taxes can generate black markets, and the same is true for services which is the category in wich gambling falls, if the taxes are too high then illegal casinos will appear and people will prefer them over the legal ones simply because they give better odds.

^ It is possible, but my question is if there is an illegal gambling casino which is you think they are much better than the regulated one, will you still gamble it there? For me, I don't, because most the illegal gambling casino has shady activity, not unless, the government will hunt them and force to stop operation which is very risky if you have a fund on that casino. That is why even how taxes will apply to the casino, they are still preferred this since they are running a business, besides, generating tax must have a calculation per annum and I don't think there is a casino that give more than 80% to the government, usually from 10% to 50% probably.

I would obviously not play there as I will have the same worries as you, but just as there are people like us that want to do nothing with a place like that there are many people that will do it, after all the fact that they are playing at an illegal casino will only add to the excitement of their gambling activities and when we add that those casinos do not have to follow any regulation then it is fair to think that you can find almost anything illegal there, so while for us that will be another negative for many people that is a positive, as hard as it may seem to believe.

[iv4n]

<...>

great points @iv4n
do you see any way out? where would you start in terms of reforming the system?

I think crypto can be a game-changer of course

but would start here by descentralizing decisions, giving more power to city > state > country instead of the opposite
probably having smaller taxes for income, taxes on consuming specially for superfluous stuff and UBI to give everyone a cover to be out of poverty line and be able to pursue education and opportunities (see Andrew Yang ideas, would be interesting to see it applied somehwere)

When I am in a good mood I am an optimist and I see the way out! I think crypto is the only thing that can "save" the world, people need a fresh perspective, decentralized world, institutions failed big time! When I am in a bad mood, I think nothing can help... people (some people, the majority of people, and all of us who stand and watch) tend to ruin everything good in the end!
We are going a bit off-topic here, so let's return to this topic... do you think that this topic shows how different we are, in how different countries (with all the rules and regulations) we live?! So we have different perspectives and looks like we can't agree on anything!

[Desmong]

What do you think ?

This is too much for common sense, i think. I mean that this point "“Excise duty on betting at 20% of the amount will be wagered,”" is beyond good and evil. In all normal countries casino pay tax for their income and in some EU countries gambler pays VAT from what he won. Not from total wager amount, this would be too stupid.

We all know that it's still from the gamblers' money that betting companies pays their workers, ads placement and other expenses that is being made. By imposing such a strict and exorbitant tax rate is detrimental to betting companies and also the gamblers because the companies will also look for ways to maximize their profits in order to balance their projection.

[traderethereum]

Maybe they will hide some income and not report it to their government because of the high taxes.

That's their other way to lessen the tax that they should be obligated to pay. It's been happening with different businesses and that's the reality that the government can't chase.
They might have some of those businesses that might not pay the right tax but still they'll pay but with lesser tax due to their low income declaration.

Somehow, the government can find if something wrong happens and if the casino does not pay the taxes based on their income, the government will trying to chase them and make sure the casino will pay.
I am sure the casino will have a side business besides having the casino business because they have much money to have or create the other business.

Yes, they may find it out but maybe that's too late for them or they will just impose a penalty which is also payable and easy to be done by that company that will have its sanction.
It's just a process that will keep going, a cycle and repetitively done by those casino companies that have been doing it for years to save a lot of money from their taxes.

That is what the company, whether it is a big or small company to pay the taxes.
If the casino gets a penalty from the government, the casino needs to pay the fine plus the tax they do not yet pay to the government.
It will be a double expense for the casino if they do not pay at the right time.
But the big company will accept what the government apply to their taxes because that will relate to their business.

[Ebede]

What do you think ?

This is too much for common sense, i think. I mean that this point "“Excise duty on betting at 20% of the amount will be wagered,”" is beyond good and evil. In all normal countries casino pay tax for their income and in some EU countries gambler pays VAT from what he won. Not from total wager amount, this would be too stupid.

We all know that it's still from the gamblers' money that betting companies pays their workers, ads placement and other expenses that is being made. By imposing such a strict and exorbitant tax rate is detrimental to betting companies and also the gamblers because the companies will also look for ways to maximize their profits in order to balance their projection.

Yes mate your right because all the gambling companies generate their funds through their platform and it's the same place they extract money for payment of their work, so if government is demanding for tax, i hope government is right to request for their tax because betting gambling companies are making money excessively, the gain their making is higher than their lost.

[john_nautica]

Companies excessive taxing may be resulted from excessive taxing from the government as well. Since as mentioned that companies are trying to balance out their profit and financial responsibilities, hence the tax. But I think one way to look at the extremeness ordered of taxing is due to the degree that the government is taxing the company in turn.