Electrum to Electrum - transaction "lost"

[HCP]

Now, I assume - it has something to do with me generating the seed                  offline & on older version           meaning it became kind of a cold wallet.

Firstly, your assumption is wrong. Whether you generate the seed online or offline makes exactly zero difference to how the seed is generated... and unless the version of Electrum that you used in Tails was very very very old (ie. pre version 2), then chances are that the version you used will have made no difference either.

Assuming the same seed words are used, then the differences between wallets are caused by the selections that are made when generating the wallet... that is to say:
- Selecting "Legacy" or "Segwit"
- Modifying the deriviation path
- "extending the seed with custom words"

Electrum has a "Seed version" system, which should prevent issues with #1... as it will automatically detect if the seed is "Legacy" or "Seed". It will also default to a specific derivation path based on that "seed version". However, this does not stop you from manually changing the derivation path (whether it is done on purpose or by accident)... Note that it's not exactly "difficult" to accidentally change the derivation path.

Also, if the seed is extended with custom words, there is zero indication that this is the case... you cannot tell if a wallet was created from an extended seed. It's much more difficult to do this "accidentally" as you have to click through the "options" button, tick the "Extend seed" checkbox and then put in the custom words in a later dialog box.


Now... I would say that one of the following are the likely causes for this whole scenario (in order of probability):

1. Accidentally using a secondary/different wallet that wasn't created using the seed you wrote down
2. Accidental modification of derivation path during initial wallet creation
3. Seeds mixed up during wallet creation
4. "forgotten" Seed Extension
5. Some hitherto unknown bug in Electrum

Unfortunately, pretty much all of these scenarios end up in the same place... ie. it's going to be incredibly difficult to recover. Especially given that all the original files on Tails were deleted

It is now pretty much impossible to check for #1... it's effectively just speculation at this point, but I've seen it happen before. A user creates multiple wallets, saves the seed for one, and then accidentally uses a receiving address from one of the others.


If you want to experiment with #2, the derivation path theory, then I would recommend downloading and running this tool offline: https://github.com/FarCanary/ElectrumSeedTester

It's basically a modified version of IanColeman's BIP39 tool that works with Electrum seeds. It also allows you to put in "custom seed extensions" (ie. a BIP39 passphrase but for Electrum seeds).

#3 seems quite unlikely, it's sort of a variation of #1 but it's a difficult thing to do given that you have to re-enter the seed to actually create the wallet. #4 also doesn't seem likely given that it requires a number of very explicit steps on behalf of the user, which you are sure that you didn't do... and as for #5, that's almost impossible to prove/disprove unless someone finds something reproducible and the devs can investigate/identify the issue.


I guess at this point, the derivation path is your best hope, so give the modified seed tool a go... but I would caution that you don't raise your hopes too high... the chances of this being the cause of all this are probably slim to none

Best of luck.

[AndrRoos]

Slightly offtopic. FFS. There's really no point being frustrated with people trying to seek clarifications to your question.

You literally said:

then I get different addresses which I have used after I have updated the wallet.

And

If I don't check the BIP box then it generates the wallet I had after the update.

Those two statements would probably be confusing for most.
Also, there's obviously a bunch of misconceptions in your post and answering them individually would've helped us to narrow down and eliminate all the possibilities. I believe my question was completely reasonable given how your response was phrased. Well... Good luck if you're going to be pissed at people trying to help you.

@ranochigo

You are absolutely right!

There is no point of being frustrated or being pissed off and I am cool. Often time I am polictical incorrect & say as it is. That is World difference between being pissed off & political incorrectness.  Is just that I am aware, that some poeple write the first thing that pops in the head without digging in deeper.


I appreciate every single help & contribution from every one! 
I am willing to answer every single qustion!


Thank you

[ranochigo]

@ranochigo

You are absolutely right!

There is no point of being frustrated or being pissed off and I am cool. Often time I am polictical incorrect & say as it is. That is World difference between being pissed off & political incorrectness.  Is just that I am aware, that some poeple write the first thing that pops in the head without digging in deeper.


I appreciate every single help & contribution from every one!  
I am willing to answer every single qustion!


Thank you

Alright fair enough. I wasn't very happy after spending quite some time reading through both threads to figure out what's going on and got chided like that. I was just trying to clarify on the scenario that you've presented. Your second response explained everything that I needed to know, didn't respond afterwards seeing the reply and edited my post instead to avoid padding the thread up unnecessarily. Nonetheless, apologies if I was harsh on my words.

HCP's response basically encompasses the gist of the entire thread.

[Saint-loup]

Hello AndrRoos
Thank you for your PM.

Could you clarify something please?
Do you remember if you have been able to recover your wallet on Tails at least one time before upgrading the Electrum software?

Because as I understand, you've created your wallet and its seed on MS Windows first.
But Electrum is using UTF-8 character encoding, so maybe the (UTF-8) character set that has been used to create your seed on MS Windows is not the same as the one used on Tails?

In order to eliminate the dependency on a fixed wordlist, the master private key and the version number are both obtained by hashes of the UTF8 normalized seed phrase.
[...]
Electrum 2.0 derives keys and addresses from a hash of the UTF8 normalized seed phrase with no dependency on a fixed wordlist.

https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/seedphrase.html

[AndrRoos]

you might had more than one wallets in your old E_Tails and sent the missing transaction to one of them (already mentioned before)

That is exactly what it is! - at least I think so too.
Now, how to find that wallet - that is what I'm trying to find out from the community here!

apology for late respond.

I will answer all the questions in the next 48h

That was a very long 48hours.

.....the longest & most diversified I've ever experienced 

So, are addresses of the restored wallets the same except for the missing one?
Refer to my last reply of in that thread:

Okay, how about the other addresses, are they the same as the addresses from your newly restored wallet?

If it's a no, your and this (1st paragraph) scenario is correct
If yes, it's most likely that old version bug or something else.

No, not at all.  This are different addresses, entirely

[AndrRoos]

I think there is a good chance here that you actually created a brand new wallet with its own seed phrase while you were trying to import the same old seed. It is an easy mistake to make if you forget to change the first option to not generate a new seed phrase. That would explain why after "recovering" a new wallet you get a different address without changing anything else about derivation path, etc.

@pooya87

No, not even a tiny chance!     Absolutely out of question!    Because I did restore that "lost" wallet before the update with the same seed!

[AndrRoos]

Alright fair enough. I wasn't very happy after spending quite some time reading through both threads to figure out what's going on and got chided like that. I was just trying to clarify on the scenario that you've presented. Your second response explained everything that I needed to know, didn't respond afterwards seeing the reply and edited my post instead to avoid padding the thread up unnecessarily. Nonetheless, apologies if I was harsh on my words.

Everything is cool!

I value your help!
Thank you for your contribution!

HCP's response basically encompasses the gist of the entire thread.

......yes,    but no.    There is still missing something......     Can be improved


 @everybody      We are on the good way, just keep on thinking & suggesting.

Thank you

[AndrRoos]

Could you clarify something please?
Do you remember if you have been able to recover your wallet on Tails at least one time before upgrading the Electrum software?

Hello

Absolutely, mentioned few times now.
Yes, I did recover my "lost" wallet on Tails twice, before upgrading the Electrum software.

Because as I understand, you've created your wallet and its seed on MS Windows first.

No, I have created that wallet on Tails.       

I did create also one on Windows but never had any problems with.     Problems only with Tails Electrum wallet

But Electrum is using UTF-8 character encoding, so maybe the (UTF-8) character set that has been used to create your seed on MS Windows is not the same as the one used on Tails?

In order to eliminate the dependency on a fixed wordlist, the master private key and the version number are both obtained by hashes of the UTF8 normalized seed phrase.
[/qoute]
First I need to understand what that means in order to answer on that one but as mentioned above wallet was created on Tails OS.

But maybe this what you wrote has to do with the issue because   the seed was generated in older version.

[Saint-loup]

[...]

But Electrum is using UTF-8 character encoding, so maybe the (UTF-8) character set that has been used to create your seed on MS Windows is not the same as the one used on Tails?

In order to eliminate the dependency on a fixed wordlist, the master private key and the version number are both obtained by hashes of the UTF8 normalized seed phrase.

First I need to understand what that means in order to answer on that one but as mentioned above wallet was created on Tails OS.

But maybe this what you wrote has to do with the issue because   the seed was generated in older version.

No if all you are saying is right, it can't have anything to do with the issue unfortunately. UTF-8/Unicode compatibility disorders are pretty frequent between different operating systems and/or computers, but it's a very rare mistake/error on a same OS on a same machine.

[AndrRoos]

Unless you recovered a non bip39 seed into electrum and checked that wallet as BIP39. Then sent funds to it. Looks like this is what you did?

Might have happened, don't recall now.  I don't have that feeling though.

But let's just assume I did it.   I am absolutely certain - if I did it - I did not change any derivation path.  
Thereupon once you check the BIP39 box, it comes always automatically the following derivation path:     m/44/0'/0'
And yes, I do have some used addresses on this derivation path. You can see it on the picture above.
Wallet with the 6 transactions, on the right side, is with that derivation path.

[AndrRoos]

Assuming the same seed words are used, then the differences between wallets are caused by the selections that are made when generating the wallet... that is to say:
- Selecting "Legacy" or "Segwit"
- Modifying the deriviation path
- "extending the seed with custom words"

@HCP

- it is Legacy. I have alwaysed used & recovered in Legacy
- Absolutely certain:   I did not modify derivation path
- Absolutely certain:   I did not extend the seed with custom words

Now... I would say that one of the following are the likely causes for this whole scenario (in order of probability):

1. Accidentally using a secondary/different wallet that wasn't created using the seed you wrote down
2. Accidental modification of derivation path during initial wallet creation
3. Seeds mixed up during wallet creation
4. "forgotten" Seed Extension
5. Some hitherto unknown bug in Electrum

1. Absolutely NOT.    I have used that wallet generated with that seed. -  Besides that I have mentioned that I did recover the "lost" wallet before I did the update on Electrum software.
2. NO.
3. NO.
4. NO.
5. Well....  in my previous topic in Spt. 2019 I wrote that the wallet was affected by a    'file corruption bug'.
Why did I write it? Because I found this information either on Tails,- or Electrum website, thus at that point it seemed to me that was it, due to descriptions on the website.       That might well be the whole problem.

If you want to experiment with #2, the derivation path theory, then I would recommend downloading and running this tool offline: https://github.com/FarCanary/ElectrumSeedTester

It's basically a modified version of IanColeman's BIP39 tool that works with Electrum seeds. It also allows you to put in "custom seed extensions" (ie. a BIP39 passphrase but for Electrum seeds)

Now this..... this is something Great!   &     I've been jerking on it for over half of the day
                                                                                                                                               ..... didn't go nowhere, until now at least
Here is the thing:  
>>>> look at the picture @bitmover hosted, with 2 wallets
The wallet from the left side  -  find straight away, without any problems or changing anything in the tool.
The wallet from the right side  -  I am incapable of digging it out.  Tried each Master Node, many different accounts, wallet chains & addresses   -   I can not find it.    

Any tip on that?

Keep in Mind the both wallets were generated using the same seed.

I guess at this point, the derivation path is your best hope, so give the modified seed tool a go...

I guess too.

but I would caution that you don't raise your hopes too high... the chances of this being the cause of all this are probably slim to none

I have somehow this feeling that it has something to do with my problem  &  might be also  file corruption bug (mentioned in topic in Spt. 2019)
[/quote]

[HCP]

I don't think it would be the "file corruption bug"... as that would have required that you had (at least attempted to create) multiple wallets/seeds... and you seem very adamant that you did not have multiple seeds/wallets etc.

So, either you did have multiple wallets setup... in which case that makes things like using the wrong wallet possible, in addition to the "file corruption bug"... or you didn't have multiple wallets setup... in which case the file corruption bug is not possible.


The curious thing is that you're sure you had previously used the seed to restore the wallet (at least once)... and that you could see the transaction etc... but the wallet was always "offline"?

That isn't possible... if you had restored the wallet, it would have had to have been online at some point to be able to see the transaction... All wallets are created empty, and need to be online to retrieve the transaction data.

Or am I misunderstanding and you're saying you restored the wallet once (prior to updating etc) and it showed the "lost" address, but not the transaction data?

[nc50lc]

Okay, how about the other addresses, are they the same as the addresses from your newly restored wallet?

No, not at all.  This are different addresses, entirely

Regardless of the answer, by looking at this: electrum/issues/5082 (the corruption bug) and the replies, there's a chance that it could be the case.
If it's really what happened and you've sent the bitcoins to the corrupted wallet file, then the partial solution to this is to restore that wallet file using a file recovery software.
And that would be a problem depending on where you've installed Tails and if it's been active since the incident.

But the real problem is if that recovered wallet can spend from that address, because based from the "issue", the corruption will produce different addresses that aren't covered by your master public key.
Means that your seed can't derive the right private key(s) to spend from them.

- You can try to recover all available possible wallet files in "wallets" folder and get all of the wallets' seed phrase, then use your 'E_Wind' to restore each of them.

One scenario that the corruption bug might happen is when you created the wallet while the "default_wallet" is still active.
Newbies usually create a wallet during Electrum's first "Install Wizard" which is actually wallet creation window, prior to creating his official wallet.

Since the issue's going nowhere from all the "no", recovering every deleted/overwritten Electrum wallet files from Tails' persistent folder it's worth the try.

Note: in case of non-recoverable funds, Electrum developers aren't liable for the missing funds (damages), it's in the software's licence.

[NotATether]

I'd say you should focus on getting the right derivation path first, then wallet file recovery as a last resort.

What was the electrum version bundled with Tails before you updated to version 3.3.8? Since you mentioned that the seed restores the wallet fine on the old version, but it restores to a different wallet on this newer version, it is possible that Electrum has changed the default derivation path or otherwise the algorithm it uses to derive the private keys, hence why knowing the old electrum version (or at least the Tails version you used and we use package manager repositories to pinpoint the Electrum version ourselves) is so important, as it will allow us to scan for code changes on Github related to key derivation.

Edit:

Do you at least know which version of Tails you used at the time?

[AndrRoos]

I don't think it would be the "file corruption bug"... as that would have required that you had (at least attempted to create) multiple wallets/seeds... and you seem very adamant that you did not have multiple seeds/wallets etc.

So, either you did have multiple wallets setup... in which case that makes things like using the wrong wallet possible, in addition to the "file corruption bug"... or you didn't have multiple wallets setup... in which case the file corruption bug is not possible.

@HCP

Look, I don't quite remember now. I have this believe.....
Yes, might be, I did try to create & restore few wallets (for the purpose of finding solution) but if, then only after I sent the test transaction to the lost wallet


Here is another thing as mantioned already few times:

• I sent first a test transaction to my "lost" wallet        and      remember seeing that incoming transaction onto my lost wallet - that is certain!                Because.....
  
  I remember seeing this transaction as   'Not Veriefied'   all the time (until I lost the wallet)      
  So, I did the transaction and I saw it showing off in my wallet, even though as   'Not Verified', thus I understood it went through and eventually it will confirm.      
  
  That was the reason  I sent  the funds to the 2nd address in the wallet  because for me it was clear it went through & eventually will be confirmed.
  
  • Following, many hours have past  and nothing was confirmed, still as 'Not Veriefied",  even though I put the mining fee for confirmation within 5 blocks  (for big transaction within 2)
    
    That is how I started looking for the solution:          deleted the wallet files, recovered again, deleted again, restored again  & so on.
    
    
    
    

    Or am I misunderstanding and you're saying you restored the wallet once (prior to updating etc) and it showed the "lost" address, but not the transaction data?
    

    I idid restore the wallet twice.  Did see the same addresses  but didn't see the transactions as confirmed
    
    That is why I had to delete the wallet anew (based on guide line on Tails website)  & search for futher solution, where I came across the suggestion on Electrum website - to update the Electrum software manually -  & so I did.
    
    Since then I have never been able to restore the "lost" wallet with the funds.

[pooya87]

where I came across the suggestion on Electrum website - to update the Electrum software manually -  & so I did.

Did you also verify the digital signature of the binaries that you downloaded against this public key[1] before installing it? Keep in mind that it is not enough to have downloaded it from "correct" website, you must verify the signature against the correct public key. Without it you can NOT trust the authenticity of what you have.

[1] https://raw.githubusercontent.com/spesmilo/electrum/master/pubkeys/ThomasV.asc

[AndrRoos]

Regardless of the answer, by looking at this: electrum/issues/5082 (the corruption bug) and the replies, there's a chance that it could be the case.

@nc50lc

Case of corruption bug?  I consider it too.   Is either that or the wrong derivation path,  anything else is out questions.

If it's really what happened and you've sent the bitcoins to the corrupted wallet file, then the partial solution to this is to restore that wallet file using a file recovery software.
And that would be a problem depending on where you've installed Tails and if it's been active since the incident.

Unfortunately, I won't be able of doing it!    Tails was on an USB stick & that stick was gone since mid-end Oct. 2019. Besides that I deleted the wallet files (prior of starting topic in Spt. 2019) as it was advised in guide lines on Tails website.

But the real problem is if that recovered wallet can spend from that address, because based from the "issue", the corruption will produce different addresses that aren't covered by your master public key.
Means that your seed can't derive the right private key(s) to spend from them.

That might be exactly what it is.   
       -Now, restoring from files is out of question.
       - Can I achieve it trying different derivation paths?  - restoring the right private key

One scenario that the corruption bug might happen is when you created the wallet while the "default_wallet" is still active.
Newbies usually create a wallet during Electrum's first "Install Wizard" which is actually wallet creation window, prior to creating his official wallet.

Would you clerify it?    I don't think is somehow related with my problem but I would like to understand it still.

Since the issue's going nowhere from all the "no", recovering every deleted/overwritten Electrum wallet files from Tails' persistent folder it's worth the try.

As mentioned above.........
No 

[nc50lc]

One scenario that the corruption bug might happen is when you created the wallet while the "default_wallet" is still active.
Newbies usually create a wallet during Electrum's first "Install Wizard" which is actually wallet creation window, prior to creating his official wallet.

Would you clerify it?    I don't think is somehow related with my problem but I would like to understand it still.

I was thinking that this might had happened to you: issues/5082#issuecomment-461428986
BTW, the first post is the "old version corruption bug" that you've been mentioning in the other thread.

That might be exactly what it is.    
       -Now, restoring from files is out of question.
       - Can I achieve it trying different derivation paths?  - restoring the right private key

No, the bug will produce a wallet based from two different wallet files (with different seeds).
So my suggestion was to get all recoverable wallet files so you can try to restore their seed phrase to the latest version.
Changing the derivation path will only derive a different master key but it's still based from the same seed; not what's described in the issue.

With the current data and the flash drive gone, I have no other suggestions.

[Saint-loup]

Here is another thing as mantioned already few times:

• I sent first a test transaction to my "lost" wallet        and      remember seeing that incoming transaction onto my lost wallet - that is certain!                Because.....
  
  I remember seeing this transaction as   'Not Veriefied'   all the time (until I lost the wallet)      
  So, I did the transaction and I saw it showing off in my wallet, even though as   'Not Verified', thus I understood it went through and eventually it will confirm.      
  
  That was the reason  I sent  the funds to the 2nd address in the wallet  because for me it was clear it went through & eventually will be confirmed.
  
  • Following, many hours have past  and nothing was confirmed, still as 'Not Veriefied",  even though I put the mining fee for confirmation within 5 blocks  (for big transaction within 2)
    

This is not what I understood from your OP and your posts above. You said you were not able to reach any Electrum server, so how could you be able to watch your incoming transactions into your wallet?  

6. I couldn't see the transaction because I couldn't connect to the servers because it was outdated. Which means I created E_Tails offline

 7. Then I understood that E_Tails is outdated on Tails OS and so I updated it to V. 3.3.8
    And here is where the SH!T starts boiling

1. I've just typed in the seed that was generated   &    recovered that "lost" wallet.  Since there was still no conncetion to the servers...
2. I've updated the Electrum manager/user on Tails to newer version     and then.....

How did you learn your Electrum software was outdated? Did you receive a message/popup on your screen saying that and inviting you to click on a link?

Did you check the signature of the files you've downloaded as suggested by Pooya87 above? If they haven't been modified you can still check their signature.

[AndrRoos]

I'd say you should focus on getting the right derivation path first, then wallet file recovery as a last resort.

@NotATether
Yeah, absolutely.     Just how.......?    
With the modified tool of    iancolman.io  that @HCP   had posted,  I've been trying & until now no result.    Seems I'm trying wrong.   Any tip on that?

What was the electrum version bundled with Tails before you updated to version 3.3.8? Since you mentioned that the seed restores the wallet fine on the old version, but it restores to a different wallet on this newer version, it is possible that Electrum has changed the default derivation path or otherwise the algorithm it uses to derive the private keys, hence why knowing the old electrum version (or at least the Tails version you used and we use package manager repositories to pinpoint the Electrum version ourselves) is so important, as it will allow us to scan for code changes on Github related to key derivation.
Edit:

Do you at least know which version of Tails you used at the time?

Tails version:         3.16.
Electrum version:  I sent an e-mail to Tails support team, hopefully they will reply because they know the answer.  
                              If not, then when I'm right it was 3.3.4   -  might be also prior to this one          

I have used this instructions to download the appimage so that I update the Electrum software manually:
https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tails.html    because the wallet had issues getting online

      But 3.3.4 that problem was fixed  -  so seems like I have used the wallet prior to 3.3.4  -   but as I said, I am not certain.

Edit:
      But based on the screenshots I took of the addresses  - you can see that it is 3.3.4   &   later because the arrow at the drop down menu was added with  v3.3.4   -    means  it was  v3.3.4   or  later