Same seeds on the Electrum and Mycelium Wallet - Problem?

[so98nn]

Hey guys, I have electrum installed on my Mac and doing the transaction regularly on it. I had the recovery phrase stored on my phone in the notes. The later one I created so that I can differentiate money coming from two different source. For example, whatever I win on the crypto casino's and trading platform goes straight into my Electrum. While on the other hand anything from my pencil artwork sales, campaigns promotions etc. goes into Mycelium.

Its been few weeks I installed Mycelium on my Apple phone. The thing is it was too random and I just experimented with Electrum phrase and inserted that one into mycelium and did not create any other HD account. (Like fetched the previous one).

The thing is: It's all mixed up now.

There are two different addresses. Whatever comes on the Electrum address is also shown on the mycelium address.

How is this even possible?

How can blockchain hold same value for two different wallets and two different address?

Is it the seed that real identifier? Why it does not show error of having it fetched at two different locations?

Or have I misunderstood something here?

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[ranochigo]

Your wallet is just a tool for you to spend your Bitcoins. You can have multiple wallets on different computers but you'll never be able to spend the funds twice.

If the addresses generated on mycelium and Electrum differs from each other and you still see the same transactions on both wallets, that is not possible.

[pooya87]

I'm not sure which part you are misunderstanding but let me explain how things work.

The "recovery phrase" also known as seed phrase is used by HD wallets to derive your keys. Your wallet is going to store these keys. If you generate the seed phrase on Electrum then import the same thing in another wallet that supports Electrum algorithm, you WILL get the same keys (so same addresses) from it.
You can do this offline, online, on another machine, using another wallet, etc. You should always get the same set of keys. That is the whole point of Hierarchical Deterministic wallets.

Keep in mind that it is not safe to re-use the same seed phrase on more than one device using different wallets. Try to generate a new seed phrase on the other wallet (Mycelium), this way you don't risk losing your funds in case there were any bugs in the other wallet that could reveal your keys.

[so98nn]

Your wallet is just a tool for you to spend your Bitcoins. You can have multiple wallets on different computers but you'll never be able to spend the funds twice.

If the addresses generated on mycelium and Electrum differs from each other and you still see the same transactions on both wallets, that is not possible.

Yes, now I see it's not the same address, its just showing up that the funds are being received on that address and it is showing total balance in the electrum.
I saw the double spend thingy already. If I send fund from Mycelium then that is also in the outgoing transaction on electrum. It was crazy to see when I realised my mistake for the first time. I thought my wallet was literally hacked. Lolz.

I'm not sure which part you are misunderstanding but let me explain how things work.

The "recovery phrase" also known as seed phrase is used by HD wallets to derive your keys. Your wallet is going to store these keys. If you generate the seed phrase on Electrum then import the same thing in another wallet that supports Electrum algorithm, you WILL get the same keys (so same addresses) from it.
You can do this offline, online, on another machine, using another wallet, etc. You should always get the same set of keys. That is the whole point of Hierarchical Deterministic wallets.

Keep in mind that it is not safe to re-use the same seed phrase on more than one device using different wallets. Try to generate a new seed phrase on the other wallet (Mycelium), this way you don't risk losing your funds in case there were any bugs in the other wallet that could reveal your keys.

I get it now. Recovery phrase is the whole thing here. I think I should move all the funds to whole new address and start over.
No way Im using the current recovery phrase since ti will give access to both the wallet and putting everything at risk.

That is the whole point of Hierarchical Deterministic wallets.

Im gonna read this now. It's a new learning for me.

[ranochigo]

I get it now. Recovery phrase is the whole thing here. I think I should move all the funds to whole new address and start over.
No way Im using the current recovery phrase since ti will give access to both the wallet and putting everything at risk.

Higher security risks but not unsafe. Actually, Electrum seeds are not compatible with Mycelium they are generated differently.

If you need segregation due to various purposes (your gambling sites and sales), it'll be more advisable to keep them stored on different seeds as well. You wouldn't have to use coin control to select the inputs to avoid linking them all together.

[pooya87]

Im gonna read this now. It's a new learning for me.

Here is two links that can help:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deterministic_wallet
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/mastering-bitcoin/9781491902639/ch04.html#hd_wallets

In simple terms think of it as a function that takes an input and returns the same result if the input is the same. Like in math f(x)=x+7 if you enter x=1 you will always get the same result but if you enter x=2 you will get an entirely different result. Of course the algorithm to derive keys is a lot more complicated and works with much bigger values (an initial entropy of at least 128-bits).

edit:

Actually, Electrum seeds are not compatible with Mycelium they are generated differently.

I thought this wallet was the one supporting Electrum seeds, or am I thinking of another wallet?

[HCP]

edit:

Actually, Electrum seeds are not compatible with Mycelium they are generated differently.

I thought this wallet was the one supporting Electrum seeds, or am I thinking of another wallet?

You must be thinking of another wallet... Mycelium is BIP39 only, it won't accept an Electrum seed.

The only ones that I know of are Sparrow and Blue Wallet. I suspect you're thinking of Blue wallet, as it's for mobile devices... whereas Sparrow is a desktop wallet.

[Pmalek]

I had the recovery phrase stored on my phone in the notes.

You shouldn't do this. The seed should never be stored digitally or online in any way. If you have malware on your phone or a malicious app (or you download something like that in the future), your seed could be compromised and your coins stolen.

The later one I created so that I can differentiate money coming from two different source. For example, whatever I win on the crypto casino's and trading platform goes straight into my Electrum. While on the other hand anything from my pencil artwork sales, campaigns promotions etc. goes into Mycelium.

It's all part of the same wallet and the addresses are derived from the same seed. In case you consolidate your funds or use two inputs (one from coins that originate from your gambling and a second one from your artwork), you will create a connection and proof that the same person who creates artwork also wins money on gambling. This is just a theory and requires blockchain analysis, but I think you will understand the point I am making.

The next two seeds that you create should be written down on paper and not stored on your phone.

[Charles-Tim]

I had the recovery phrase stored on my phone in the notes.

You shouldn't do this. The seed should never be stored digitally or online in any way. If you have malware on your phone or a malicious app (or you download something like that in the future), your seed could be compromised and your coins stolen.

Yes, there are some malware that can monitor the activities done on a computer and be revealing it to hackers, such malware can reveal the contents on the note to the hackers. Also, the phone can be stolen, even if the person that stole it can not access the phone but format it, that will be the end of the seed phrase if not properly kept offline like on paper. I had an experience recently when I upgraded my phone (although an Android) to OS 10, all the contents I had in my note was not accessible again and till now, ones I click on the note, it will close back immediately, better not to make use of note on phone to store your seed phrase or any other sensitive information as Pmalek has suggested which is very valid for security and safety reasons, store if offline in a place not accessible by attackers and also in a place it can not be damaged.

[hugeblack]

You can export electrum address private key and import it in most wallets, but this process is useless because it is dangerous and puts your wallet balance at risk.
Create cold storage using a hardware wallet or Electrum, extract XPUB key and then you can use it on any device.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Your wallet is just a tool for you to spend your Bitcoins. You can have multiple wallets on different computers but you'll never be able to spend the funds twice.

Glad you answered it so precisely, since I might have tried and made it confusing.  And to anyone else who doesn't understand, it's like having your checking account opened up on two different computers--if you make a transaction on one computer and refresh the screen on the other, both computers will show that the transaction took place.

I thought from the title that OP was asking something else that I had a problem with, that the seed phrase from an old Mycelium wallet I had couldn't be used to restore the wallet in Electrum.  I never resolved that issue and I didn't understand why that's the case--it wasn't an issue big enough to start a new thread about, but I just read this helpful post:

You must be thinking of another wallet... Mycelium is BIP39 only, it won't accept an Electrum seed.

Being as technically idiotic as I am, I don't understand what that means exactly or whether there's a way around it....but I'm glad you posted that.  I really should crack down and start learning about this stuff.

[Charles-Tim]

You must be thinking of another wallet... Mycelium is BIP39 only, it won't accept an Electrum seed.

I don't understand what that means exactly or whether there's a way around it....but I'm glad you posted that.  I really should crack down and start learning about this stuff.

I do not know if this is ironic or maybe you do not get what HCP meant, he meant seed phrase generated on Electrum wallet can not be imported on Mycelium wallet because Electrum wallet seed phrase derivation path generation is not the same as that of BIP39. Although, the seed phrase of BIP39 wallet can be imported on Electrum as Electrum makes it compatible by generating the keys if the BIP39 box was checked during the BIP39 seed phrase importation on Electrum wallet, but that of Electrum can not be imported on BIP39 wallet like Mycelium successfully.

Electrum Seed Version System

[o_e_l_e_o]

he meant seed phrase generated on Electrum wallet can not be imported on Mycelium wallet because Electrum wallet seed phrase derivation path is not the same as that of BIP39.

Electrum does use a different derivation path for it's own seed phrases (m/0/0 for the first address for legacy and m/0'/0/0 for the first address for segwit, as opposed to the more familiar m/44'/0'/0'/0/0 or m/84'/0'/0'/0/0 for BIP39 legacy and segwit respectively), but that's not the reason you cannot import Electrum seed phrases to Mycelium. Indeed, if it were only due to the derivation path, then Mycelium would happily accept the seed phrases but simply generate a different wallet with different addresses. It is because Electrum seed phrases are created in a different manner, will fail the BIP39 checksum, and are concatenated with a different string ("electrum" instead of "mnemonic") before being plugged in to PBKDF2.

[ranochigo]

Indeed, if it were only due to the derivation path, then Mycelium would happily accept the seed phrases but simply generate a different wallet with different addresses. It is because Electrum seed phrases are created in a different manner, will fail the BIP39 checksum, and are concatenated with a different string ("electrum" instead of "mnemonic") before being plugged in to PBKDF2.

Electrum seeds that were generated prior to a more recent versions has the potential to be a valid BIP39 mnemonic as well. It is not until recently that they decided to specifically grind for checksums that are only valid for Electrum and not BIP39. But yes, then the addresses generated will be different due to the different derivation paths.