Calculating Satoshi's coins

[BitcoinADAB]

Ok, this all sounds great great but to use a token, ADAB, that is riddled with ridicule and scam, seems fishy.

ADAB wanted to build a crypto exchange and for a short time they had a running exchange but then closed it. We think that they had licensing problems. We know that projects in that region (ME) are high quality and that they have the required equipment. With that project, we invite them to join us.

So you and your buds buy up the token now for cheap, then spread the 25 BTC over those tokens you picked up for cheap?

After doing this, the token price would crash. Who would participate in that project thereafter? That would be a problem, if that project would solve all 'Satoshi's coins' at once. But the coins will be solved step by step, so we have to be carefull how we buy the tokens with the 25 BTC reward to keep the project running.

How would you even know who submitted the tame point that helped solve key and who submitted the wild point that helped solve the key?

We will set the starting points of all tame and wild points, we will have the private keys. The participants will calculate the points on top of these. Who submitted the solving point will have the private keys of these, and can sign a message. So we can know who solved it.
Btw: All wild points of this part, after solving a key, will become tame points in the system. So the system will become faster even when the 'hash rate/jump rate/key rate' remains constant.

Pay people based on their hash rate/jump rate/key rate; whatever you want to call it, and split the entire 50 BTC amongst all people who contributed hashing power.
Why use a token at all?

It will take a long time to solve the first 'Satoshi's coin' and the token would help the participants in that phase. The price of the token will reflect the success of the project and the probability when a 'Satoshi's coin' will be solved and the participating nodes can optimize their reward with that token. We think that this will work.

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[BitcoinADAB]

Here are some examples of Satoshi's addresses (all coinbase 50 BTC)

You posting a few addresses ...

These addresses are special addresses (12 of them, there are ~100). They are the last coinbase addresses, before Satoshi resets his miner (the related values, like the ExtraNonce, go to 0). These points are on top of a blue line, which reflect Satoshi's coins. More here: https://bitslog.com/2019/04/16/the-return-of-the-deniers-and-the-revenge-of-patoshi/

[WanderingPhilospher]

We will set the starting points of all tame and wild points, we will have the private keys. The participants will calculate the points on top of these. Who submitted the solving point will have the private keys of these, and can sign a message. So we can know who solved it.
Btw: All wild points of this part, after solving a key, will become tame points in the system. So the system will become faster even when the 'hash rate/jump rate/key rate' remains constant.

Yeah, not sure what you are saying. Like, it really makes no sense.

You set the starting points? Or program randomly generates starting points? ok, well the program does (you can set the range) and the wild kangaroo you know the range released but no clue where they are at in the range because they are offset by the pubkey's private key amount.

You have the private keys? To all 2^128 points? Well hell, just sweep those coins now.

If I have the private key, why sign and send message? Why not just sweep the coins myself.

Tell me how what I see is wrong:

With Kangaroo, you have a range, in this case it would be from 0 to N-1, roughly 2^256.
The program will generate random starting points within that range for the tames and wilds to start their hops. So how do you plan on setting all the starting points? And how do you already have these private keys?
A tames point is actual pubkey and its distance is the actual private key to that pubkey.
A wilds point is a pubkey but the distance is offset by the pubkey you are searching for, private key.
The server or just the program if running on individual system, detects for a collision amongst the points, and then solves. How do you plan on running the system? A user would never know the points or distances they came across because their system should send it to a central server, along with every other participants points and distances, and the central server would look for collisions and solve. Users would never know if their point and distances found the collision.  So yeah, I am struggling to understand how your system intends to work.

Yes, you did some reading and understand that you can tame previous wilds. BUT doesn't mean it will necessarily be faster, it will depend on where a key was found and where the next one lies on the curve.

[BitcoinADAB]

You set the starting points? Or program randomly generates starting points? ok, well the program does (you can set the range) and the wild kangaroo you know the range released but no clue where they are at in the range because they are offset by the pubkey's private key amount.
...
Yes, you did some reading and understand that you can tame previous wilds. BUT doesn't mean it will necessarily be faster, it will depend on where a key was found and where the next one lies on the curve.

In the puzzle, you are calculating in a range. But in the project we will have the full range and here the system becomes faster. It will be different than Pollard's kangaroo or Rho like you use it, we will let them jump over N.

The participants won't know, if they are calculating tame or wild points. They will provide the central server, which we will have, with distinguished points (plus related private keys) and the system will check if there is a solution. If so, we will broadcast the distinguished points (wild + tame) and only the participants who solved it can sign and will receive their rewards (12.5 BTC each).

wild point = 'Satoshi's point' (private key unknown) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)
tame point = starting point (we have private key) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)

[WanderingPhilospher]

You set the starting points? Or program randomly generates starting points? ok, well the program does (you can set the range) and the wild kangaroo you know the range released but no clue where they are at in the range because they are offset by the pubkey's private key amount.
...
Yes, you did some reading and understand that you can tame previous wilds. BUT doesn't mean it will necessarily be faster, it will depend on where a key was found and where the next one lies on the curve.

In the puzzle, you are calculating in a range. But in the project we will have the full range and here the system becomes faster. It will be different than Pollard's kangaroo or Rho like you use it, we will let them jump over N.

The participants won't know, if they are calculating tame or wild points. They will provide the central server, which we will have, with distinguished points (plus related private keys) and the system will check if there is a solution. If so, we will broadcast the distinguished points (wild + tame) and only the participants who solved it can sign and will receive their rewards (12.5 BTC each).

wild point = 'Satoshi's point' (private key unknown) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)
tame point = starting point (we have private key) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)

Not sure why you want to jump over N, but that is your programming choice. With a jump size of roughly 2^128 if you jump over N, those tame points will all become useless. The tames need to be higher than the wilds. If your tames are in a range less than 2^244, then that would be useless because the odds are, the private key is in at least the 248 to 256 bit range. 248 bit range allows for 2 leading 0s. So I don't see how you allowing jumps over/around N will make it faster.

The participants won't know, if they are calculating tame or wild points. They will provide the central server, which we will have, with distinguished points (plus related private keys) and the system will check if there is a solution. If so, we will broadcast the distinguished points (wild + tame) and only the participants who solved it can sign and will receive their rewards (12.5 BTC each).

If I am sending my points to a central server, how will I know what they are. Are you going to make every user store points on there on computer as well, and eat up 100s of 1000s of GB space?! I shouldn't be storing what the central server is storing therefore, I would have no private keys or points on my local machine to sign anything.


And the whole token thing, makes no sense.   25 BTC would buy all of those ADAB tokens and then some.

So if I am a user and don't help solve, I get nothing in return? Unless I own some ADAB tokens? Which by the way, they have all been sold, so people who aren't even participating/helping search for coins, will be rewarded, meanwhile the workers may not, because maybe there aren't any tokens to buy because people who bought them years ago aren't selling or are selling at extremely high price.

Also, by me not knowing or any user not knowing if they are searching for wilds or tames or anything, will never truly know if their point helped solve the key. You could program it where only you or your friends get the 25BTC reward, but if I am paid based on my contribution, then I know I will be compensated. Zero transparency with your platform. Imagine mining in a pool where you had no idea how much you would make because you didn't know total pool hashrate nor your own hashrate, you just trusted the pool operators. ha!

[BitcoinADAB]

Not sure why you want to jump over N, but that is your programming choice. With a jump size of roughly 2^128 if you jump over N, those tame points will all become useless. The tames need to be higher than the wilds. If your tames are in a range less than 2^244, then that would be useless because the odds are, the private key is in at least the 248 to 256 bit range. 248 bit range allows for 2 leading 0s. So I don't see how you allowing jumps over/around N will make it faster.

It is a finite field, all points that jump over N, come back to the field and are useful.

If I am sending my points to a central server, how will I know what they are. Are you going to make every user store points on there on computer as well, and eat up 100s of 1000s of GB space?! I shouldn't be storing what the central server is storing therefore, I would have no private keys or points on my local machine to sign anything.

The project is very large and we want participants to build pools. Once the project runs a while, pools will pop up and they will store that data.

And the whole token thing, makes no sense.   25 BTC would buy all of those ADAB tokens and then some.

Yes, today it would be so. But if the project starts, there will be enough volume, that will handle these 25 BTC.

So if I am a user and don't help solve, I get nothing in return? Unless I own some ADAB tokens? Which by the way, they have all been sold, so people who aren't even participating/helping search for coins, will be rewarded, meanwhile the workers may not, because maybe there aren't any tokens to buy because people who bought them years ago aren't selling or are selling at extremely high price.

As answered, pools will solve this.

Also, by me not knowing or any user not knowing if they are searching for wilds or tames or anything, will never truly know if their point helped solve the key. You could program it where only you or your friends get the 25BTC reward, but if I am paid based on my contribution, then I know I will be compensated. Zero transparency with your platform. Imagine mining in a pool where you had no idea how much you would make because you didn't know total pool hashrate nor your own hashrate, you just trusted the pool operators. ha!

You can be sure that pools, who understand the project, will provide you with the necessary data.

[WanderingPhilospher]

It is a finite field, all points that jump over N, come back to the field and are useful.

This tells me you do not know enough about Kangaroo and points

Yes, today it would be so. But if the project starts, there will be enough volume, that will handle these 25 BTC.

Again, it's not about volume, it's about tokens and price...25BTC would buy them all, in one swoop.

The project is very large and we want participants to build pools. Once the project runs a while, pools will pop up and they will store that data.

You do not understand the amount of data that will need to be stored

Lastly, kangaroo has its disadvantages with your approach.  Brute force would be much quicker in this case. How much quicker, around 2^38 quicker, now, go figure that one out.

[PrivatePerson]

Is it possible to argue that any public key address is 128 bits?

[BitcoinADAB]

...

First two points are answered in the previous post.

The project is very large and we want participants to build pools. Once the project runs a while, pools will pop up and they will store that data.

You do not understand the amount of data that will need to be stored

Lastly, kangaroo has its disadvantages with your approach.

You don't need that amount of data. The system we use is different than your Pollard's kangaroo what you use for the puzzle. The main problem is the speed of calculations ('hash rate/jump rate/key rate').

Yes, we will have loops (tame point will reach a tame point) but we have good solutions for that.

Brute force would be much quicker in this case. How much quicker, around 2^38 quicker, now, go figure that one out.

We have checked this. It is impossible as of today.

Is it possible to argue that any public key address is 128 bits?

The public keys are 256 bit. What we wanted to say is, that it is a 2^128 calculations problem instead of 2^255, if you don't use Pollard or Rho.

[bitmover]

We want to build a network, like the Bitcoin network, where instead of hashing the next block, the nodes will calculate distinguished points of the elliptic curve that Bitcoin uses for its addresses.

And this network will include Satoshi's mined coins. Hopefully we can calculate them and bring them back.


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How will it work?

If we solve a Satoshi's coinbase, which consists of 50 BTC, 25 BTC will go to the node that calculated the distinguished point and with the other 25 BTC, we will buy the interaction token. The price of the interaction token will be an indicator for the success of that project and the participating nodes can optimize their reward with that token.

Theoretically, you are losing money while spending your processing power trying to, literally, attack the network.

The way bitcoin is designed that processing power would be better spent in the mining process itself, because the chances of getting a private key are ridiculously low.

As mentioned in the whitepaper:

The incentive may help encourage nodes to stay honest. If a greedy attacker is able to
assemble more CPU power than all the honest nodes, he would have to choose between using it
to defraud people by stealing back his payments, or using it to generate new coins. He ought to
find it more profitable to play by the rules, such rules that favour him with more new coins than
everyone else combined, than to undermine the system and the validity of his own wealth.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf


There is also a second problem here.  Supposing you find a satoshi private key, that key is worth a LOT more than 50 bitcoins. You can literally prove yourself to be satoshi. How much would Faketoshi pay for this?

Certainly people like Faketoshi will be interested in a project like this. Is this the kind of partners you want? He is probably trying to do it already...

[WanderingPhilospher]

We have checked this. It is impossible as of today.

Then I guess it comes down to if you believe in the RIPEMD160 theory, doesn't it?

The system we use is different than your Pollard's kangaroo what you use for the puzzle. The main problem is the speed of calculations ('hash rate/jump rate/key rate').

Then I am not sure what system/program you will use if you don't store points to check for collisions.

You can be sure that pools, who understand the project, will provide you with the necessary data.

You say you want to set it up like bitcoin network.
In a typical PoW network, pools are formed, pools find blocks, pools are rewarded.   Normally, the larger pools find more blocks.  When a block is found, the network checks and validates if it's a valid hash/block.
In your platform, the largest pool may never get a reward/find a block. Only your system knows/validates if a point (block) is valid therefore, again, you can decide who receives the reward.

[BitcoinADAB]

You can be sure that pools, who understand the project, will provide you with the necessary data.

You say you want to set it up like bitcoin network.
In a typical PoW network, pools are formed, pools find blocks, pools are rewarded.   Normally, the larger pools find more blocks.  When a block is found, the network checks and validates if it's a valid hash/block.
In your platform, the largest pool may never get a reward/find a block. Only your system knows/validates if a point (block) is valid therefore, again, you can decide who receives the reward.

With 'like the Bitcoin network', we wanted to say: large network with pools and pool participants. And not PoW. It won't be decentralized but fair and transparent.

After solving a point, we will publish all parameters (public keys) for:

wild point = 'Satoshi's point' (private key unknown) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)
tame point = starting point (we have private key) + distinguished point (we + participant have private key)

Only the pools who calculated 'wild distinguished point' and 'tame distinguished point' can get the reward. We can't decide who receives the reward.

Even if we published

wild point = 'Satoshi's point' (private key unknown) + our point 1
tame point = starting point (we have private key) + our point 2

our points 1 and 2 would have to be distinguished points. And that is not possible unless we have the same calculating power like the network.

[BitcoinADAB]

The crypto exchange BitForex https://www.bitforex.com made an announcement:

The project related token ADAB has been hidden.

Please notice that assets holders are required to withdraw their assets to their own wallets or other exchanges by 11:00, August 9th, 2021 (GMT+8). BitForex will not support the withdrawal of these tokens/coins after that time.

Transaction fee: 999995.4639 ADAB

[NotATether]

We will set the starting points of all tame and wild points
~snip

You set the starting points? Or program randomly generates starting points? ok, well the program does (you can set the range) and the wild kangaroo you know the range released but no clue where they are at in the range because they are offset by the pubkey's private key amount.

It would be much better if the starting points were not kept constant, the fact that the starting points are initially chosen at random anyway implies that there's no benefit to keeping them constant.

Btw: All wild points of this part, after solving a key, will become tame points in the system. So the system will become faster even when the 'hash rate/jump rate/key rate' remains constant.

The tames have a different min/max range from the wild points so some wild points won't be valid tame points.

[BitcoinADAB]

...

In our case, tame points will be random points (private key: 1 - FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFE BAAEDCE6 AF48A03B BFD25E8C D0364140 = full order range) and wild points (Satoshi's points) are in the same range, so we can use the related wild points as tames after solving one point. Wild points and tame points will jump 2^0, 2^1, ... , 2^255 and they will 'jump over' the order of FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFE BAAEDCE6 AF48A03B BFD25E8C D0364141 and as it is a finite field, they will come back into the field. That system is not usable for the puzzle, as you have there a small range (2^119 - 2^120) and not the whole order range. Nobody could test this for Bitcoin so far, but it has been tested for a smaller order.

Thank you, that you are trying to improve it.


Edit:
In that system, it doesn't matter how many wild points and tame points we have. The server will provide the pools with starting points, so that the number of wild points and tame points (all tame points will be different random points and can be anywhere in the full order range) are approximately equal. The main problem is the key rate of the whole system. We will need 2^128 (can be more or less, Pollard is not deterministic) calculated points to solve the first point. And that is not impossible but nearly impossible, so we want to try it. We think, that when the project runs, improved point addition hardware will appear. With the provided data from the pools, people will be able to calculate how far we are from calculating the first point of Satoshi. But we will not know, which one it will be.

The hashrate of Bitcoin was in the first year ~10 Mhash/sec and 10 years later 100 Ehash/s. If someone told us in 2009 that in 2019 the network will hash 10,000,000,000,000 times faster, what would we say? 10,000,000,000,000 more participants? No, the hardware and hardware use improved, without Satoshi asking them.

So we have to run our project, even with a low key rate. And when people understand the project, they will join us.

With Satoshi's introduction of Bitcoin in 2009, people could join and mine coins and got coins. But in our case, it will take a while until we have the first point and the first reward. That was a problem to solve. And we found the solution in the token. Mining pools can operate with that token (reward their participants with that token) before we solve the first point. We already said it, the price of the token will be an indicator for the success of the project and the probability when a 'Satoshi's coin' will be solved. At the beginning, the token price will be speculative, but with higher key rates of the network it will become more and more predictable.

[WanderingPhilospher]

Wild points and tame points will jump 2^0, 2^1, ... , 2^255 and they will 'jump over' the order of FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFE BAAEDCE6 AF48A03B BFD25E8C D0364141 and as it is a finite field, they will come back into the field. That system is not usable for the puzzle, as you have there a small range (2^119 - 2^120) and not the whole order range. Nobody could test this for Bitcoin so far, but it has been tested for a smaller order.

You should probably study the code before talking on it. The current kangaroo, does "jump over" the order of N and does come back around. Run and print to screen the points and you will see or print them to file.

I still do not think if you jump tames 2^0, 2^1,...anything lower than 2^244ish, they will be of value. So if you are using the standard suggested jumps of 2^128, if those tames don't start in a targeted range above where the private key could be, or even when they wrap back around N, they will be too low to be of use/value.

And we found the solution in the token. Mining pools can operate with that token (reward their participants with that token) before we solve the first point. We already said it, the price of the token will be an indicator for the success of the project and the probability when a 'Satoshi's coin' will be solved. At the beginning, the token price will be speculative, but with higher key rates of the network it will become more and more predictable.

"Hey pools, we need you to buy this old scammish coin to reward your miners because a. we may never find a collision and b. even though you may have the most hashrate, you may not have half of the solving collision and therefore you get nada."

You must have a lot of ADAB tokens in your possession haha!

[BitcoinADAB]

We don't know how your kangaroo is working. We wanted to say, that if you use the projects system for a point in a range (2^119 - 2^120) and not the whole order range, that you will have a 2^256 problem. So it is not usable for it.

Yes, we use 2^0, 2^1, ... Even if 2^0 and 2^1 are neighboring points, we don't know, from which points these are target points. We are open for improvements, if people explain it.

Pools won't buy the token, if the token wouldn't help them. But they will understand, that it will help and support them. And if a pool participates in that project, that means, that they believe in it. If they don't want to use the token, they could reward their participants with BTC in advance.

It doesn't matter how much ADAB we have, we don't have 100%. And if we started our own token, then we would have 100%.

As mentioned in earlier posts, ADAB wanted to build a crypto exchange and for a short time they had a running exchange but then closed it. We think that they had licensing problems. We know that projects in that region (ME) are high quality and that they have the required equipment. With that project, we invite them to join us. They could become the largest pool in that project.

[NotATether]

Well the current Kangaroo builds use a herd of 1024 tame and wild points so I don't think it matters a lot how big you make the herd size on the CPU since the controller code runs through the herd with a simple for loop for CPU. On GPU It's a bit constrained though, hardware is usually optimized to run 128 or 64 items in parallel, and in this case it's 128 pairs at a time. And the GPU kernel runs through this 64 times per call to GPU-land so 8192 different privkeys iterated per call, 8 times more than the CPU on paper.

Of course because of floating-point arithmetic advancements in each new GPU card the actual speed boost is much higher.

As mentioned in earlier posts, ADAB wanted to build a crypto exchange and for a short time they had a running exchange but then closed it. We think that they had licensing problems. We know that projects in that region (ME) are high quality and that they have the required equipment. With that project, we invite them to join us. They could become the largest pool in that project.

The ADAB exchange you keep talking about had a messy scam accusation against them, apparently, they didn't conduct their ICO or whatever properly so I suggest you should look for another exchange in that region to cooperate with.

[BitcoinADAB]

What we want is, that each participant of a pool calculates one tame or wild. The main server has to coordinate that all, so it is the best solution so far.

... I suggest you should look for another exchange in that region to cooperate with.

We have another idea. I hope that we can publish it here today or tomorrow.

[BitcoinADAB]

We wanted to have a decentralized exchange for this project and created an own token as ADAB spin-off. We chose the Waves platform.

Exchange: https://waves.exchange/

Explorer with information on the token:
https://wavesexplorer.com/tx/9zMruSw8PPVPvRWgmrDi8QzsaGwNfBqdx9L5sMgASDAK

Name of the token: BitcoinADAB
Quantity: 10,000,000
Decimals: 8
Reissuable: no (10,000,000 tokens is max.)
AssetId: 9zMruSw8PPVPvRWgmrDi8QzsaGwNfBqdx9L5sMgASDAK

To find the token in the exchange:
Switch from 'Verified mode' to 'Community mode'
Search with the AssetId: 9zMruSw8PPVPvRWgmrDi8QzsaGwNfBqdx9L5sMgASDAK
Pairs: BitcoinADAB/BTC and BitcoinADAB/WAVES

This is our interaction token for this project.