[2021-07-09] Russia Drafting Law on Confiscation of Crypto Assets

[bbc.reporter]

If there are Russian users reading this, it might be good to begin learning about Monero and other anonymous coins. You cannot risk your wallets being tainted with dirty coins if it is not tainted already. Also, I know there might be some of you would who will use the argument that there was data from Chainalysis that showed only 1% of bitcoin transactions were criminal. However, you cannot trust the Russian government not to frame you or taint your wallet themselves.

This is okay if your wallet holds only a small amount. What if you are a holder of $1 million in bitcoin? You might not be 100% safe.



Russian Prosecutor General Igor Krasnov has revealed that legislative amendments are being prepared on the confiscation of crypto assets. “A serious challenge is the criminal use of cryptocurrencies in our country,” he said.

Russia is preparing amendments to the current legislation to allow for the confiscation of crypto assets found to be proceeds from crime, Tass reported Wednesday.

Krasnov said that virtual assets have become a source of income for criminals, emphasizing that cryptocurrencies are being used for corruption, including bribery. “The latency of these criminal acts has recently been aggravated by the use of crypto assets as bribes,” he asserted, adding that cryptocurrency exchanges have been used as “a way of laundering stolen funds.”

Read in full https://news.bitcoin.com/russia-drafting-law-confiscation-crypto-assets/

[xema_nema]

I think it's only words, and they don't have instruments to realize their thoughts.

[davis196]

This is a step in the right direction.Cryptocurrencies,which are obtained via illegal activities must be confiscated from the hackers/scammers.
Every normal country must have such law.The problem is that the Russian government cannot be trusted and the Russian police might confiscate cryptocurrencies,which aren't obtained via illegal activities.
The Russian court system cannot be trusted as well.If you are from Russia and the government steals your crypto coins deliberately or by accident,the Russian court will not stand by your side.

[Kong Hey Pakboy]

I think it's only words, and they don't have instruments to realize their thoughts.

Dude, it's Russia, they have means to enforce this and they are pretty strict when it comes enforcing laws and anything keep the order. Also, given how corruption is a mentality in Russian government, I think that we will probably see to it that they will confiscate as much cryptocurrency as much as possible.

[cr1776]

This is a step in the right direction.Cryptocurrencies,which are obtained via illegal activities must be confiscated from the hackers/scammers.
...

Which illegal activities?  Where physically are these illegal activities?  Which country is going to decide?

The authoritarian leaders in China night have a different view of what is illegal than the people who want to be free in Hong Kong or in the country of Taiwan.  Or the anti-liberty Biden admin in the US might have a different view than the Swiss, the people of Cayman Islands or the people of the Cook Islands.  Russian might not like someone in Ukraine or vice versa.  Unless one is advocating for a world government - which in the end will eliminate competition and destroy human liberty on the planet - this is a bad idea.

Good luck attempting to enforce that as more privacy protections come to bitcoin and other crypto, adding back doors to seize assets is as bad an idea as adding backdoors into encryption of devices.  (Or not encrypting cloud backups with on-device keys).

Edward Snowden and Julian Assange might have different views on what is illegal than the left-wing autocrats in the governments of the 5 eyes (people like Obama, Biden who went after them in the first place etc) and the people at the NSA, CIA etc.

[bbc.reporter]

Another concern is if your wallet has received a transaction from a tainted address without your knowledge, does the government have the right to confiscate your coins under this new law? I reckon if the Russian government were to enact such a law, they should treat cryptocoins like real currencies where the government cannot confiscate paper bills used by criminals that accidentally went to an innocent bystander’s pocket.

To show an example, if a criminal used his criminal paper bills to buy something from a store and one of those criminal paper bills went as change to an innocent customer, does it give the government the right to confiscate the paper bill from the innocent customer?

[buwaytress]

I can see it now. Any seized assets by Russia to be dust-sprayed by tainters. I thought the Bitcoin fungibility issue was done and dusted? Even Marathon Miner's given up trying to censor Bitcoin transactions deemed to be non-compliant with US regulations. If an "OFAC compliant" miner realises the futility of it all, pretty sure a state will arrive at the same conclusion more quickly.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Russia is preparing amendments to the current legislation to allow for the confiscation of crypto assets found to be proceeds from crime, Tass reported Wednesday.

Perhaps they could drop an email to US Congressman Bill Foster and ask him how he plans on making bitcoin transactions reversible, and follow the same idea to allow them to confiscate bitcoin. You can pass whatever laws you like, you cannot reverse nor confiscate bitcoin without the relevant private keys.

This is a step in the right direction.

What an absolutely insane opinion. You think it is a step in the right direction to let governments around the world start helping themselves to other people's bitcoin? You trust Putin with the ability to just take bitcoin from your wallet because he decides you are a criminal? You trust Xi Jinping? Kim Jong-un? The whole point of bitcoin is that this can never happen, and any change to the code to allow such a thing to happen would immediately be the death of bitcoin. Thankfully, that will never happen.

Looks like a big surge in mixer traffic and coinjoins coming from Russia in the near future.

[bbc.reporter]

@o_e_l_e_o. What the Russian government can do is hire a service similar to Chainalysis and blacklist certain addresses, warn exchanges of those addresses and follow those wallets’ transactions. I am not quite certain if exchanges are fearful of the Russian government enough to freeze accounts that have received transactions from blacklisted wallets, however.

[hv_]

Why new law is needed here at all?

[o_e_l_e_o]

What the Russian government can do is hire a service similar to Chainalysis and blacklist certain addresses, warn exchanges of those addresses and follow those wallets’ transactions.

The US and Chinese governments already do all these things. Not really a big deal if Russia want in on the act as well. They can regulate centralized exchanges and force them to comply with whatever rules they like - centralized exchanges are, after all, private businesses and therefore subject to the laws of whichever jurisdictions they operate in. What they can't do is start to try to regulate bitcoin itself. As much as they bleat on about wanting to reverse transactions, censor addresses, confiscate coins, and so on, none of that is possible without completely destroying bitcoin, which they can't do either.

In the end, these kind of draconian surveillance and control laws being enforced by centralized exchanges will just force more and more users towards decentralized exchanges and privacy enhancing techniques such as mixers and coinjoins, which is ultimately a good thing.

[acquafredda]

@o_e_l_e_o. What the Russian government can do is hire a service similar to Chainalysis and blacklist certain addresses, warn exchanges of those addresses and follow those wallets’ transactions. I am not quite certain if exchanges are fearful of the Russian government enough to freeze accounts that have received transactions from blacklisted wallets, however.

How can they seize something they cannot see? That is my question!
If someone has, let's say 10 btc in cold storage and only him/her knows about that btc, how is any state with any perfect crypto bill, able to do anything about confiscating the assets?
Of course if you know somebody has got btc than you could force him/her to hand over the keys, but if there are no "visible" keys, what are they going to confiscate?

[o_e_l_e_o]

How can they seize something they cannot see? That is my question!

Because most people are awful when it comes to their privacy. If you have completed KYC at any exchange or centralized service, then chances are they are tracking your withdrawals and linking your withdrawals to your real name. Have you used your main email address to sign up for some competition, giveaway, or airdrop? Have you shared an address on any social media platform, any public forum (such as this one) or via any non-encrypted method of communication (email, instant messaging, SMS, etc.)? Are you using a custodial wallet, web wallet, or SPV wallet? Are you not running your own node? Do you repeatedly search for you own transactions on block explorers without going through Tor? Have you paid someone with crypto and also given them your name, email, phone number, or shipping address? Do you so much as open your wallets over public WiFi? The list goes on. All these things can potentially link your holdings to your identity.

If someone has, let's say 10 btc in cold storage and only him/her knows about that btc, how is any state with any perfect crypto bill, able to do anything about confiscating the assets?

If (and that's a big "if") no one else knows about that bitcoin, then they obviously can't seize it specifically. They can raid your house though, searching for anything which might be a seed phrase or private key, or simply "coerce" you until you tell them all they want to know. Governments around the world don't exactly have a great track record on the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.

[SFR10]

In other words, they'd like to have full control over those exchanges that offer custodial services ^[ironic]...
^{- From bad to worse [SMH].}
I'm curious to know what they'll be doing with some of the confiscated crypto assets that nobody attempted for their retrieval

[stompix]

Perhaps they could drop an email to US Congressman Bill Foster and ask him how he plans on making bitcoin transactions reversible, and follow the same idea to allow them to confiscate bitcoin. You can pass whatever laws you like, you cannot reverse nor confiscate bitcoin without the relevant private keys.

And you think the Russian government needs training on how to do this?
Private keys, oh, I'm sure those private keys will prevent your suicide when you fall from the 10th floor of a 4 story high building.

The Marschall office is having more bitcoin auctions than birthday parties and I'm willing to bet that the Russian police who are not able to catch drug dealers or criminals will be able to perform miraculously at this, recovering 120% of the bitcoins in question. I wouldn't be surprised if some people will choose to donate their coins to the United Russia party just the second before unfortunately they got shot by rogue garbage men.

In the end, these kind of draconian surveillance and control laws being enforced by centralized exchanges will just force more and more users towards decentralized exchanges and privacy enhancing techniques such as mixers and coinjoins, which is ultimately a good thing.

You've lived too much in a free country, this kind of reaction will only happen in an authoritarian regime if they will allow you to, if not there will be just obedience. Decentralized exchanges?  Just one covert operation catching a few of those dealing there and have them featured in an interview where they regret their evil doings against the bless government and the Soviet people, like this one. You see how fast freedom and all those other things start to matter less than your life?

The only good news in this crap is that we again talk about Russia, where this kind of proposal happens every year if not every month. Probably we will have this law just after a new referendum in Crimea.

[bryant.coleman]

It is really funny. In Russia, most of the criminal activity (ransomware, human trafficking, drugs trade.etc) is being done by gangs with close links with the ruling United Russia party. I am not sure whether these gangs will face any sort of asset confiscation. On the other hand, the notoriously corrupt Russian cops may use these laws to harass regular users who have no direct links with criminal activity. Anyway, I urge users residing in Russia to re-route their transactions using Bitcoin mixers. Also, it would be better to avoid exchanges that require KYC.

[acquafredda]

How can they seize something they cannot see? That is my question!

Because most people are awful when it comes to their privacy. If you have completed KYC at any exchange or centralized service, then chances are they are tracking your withdrawals and linking your withdrawals to your real name. Have you used your main email address to sign up for some competition, giveaway, or airdrop? Have you shared an address on any social media platform, any public forum (such as this one) or via any non-encrypted method of communication (email, instant messaging, SMS, etc.)? Are you using a custodial wallet, web wallet, or SPV wallet? Are you not running your own node? Do you repeatedly search for you own transactions on block explorers without going through Tor? Have you paid someone with crypto and also given them your name, email, phone number, or shipping address? Do you so much as open your wallets over public WiFi? The list goes on. All these things can potentially link your holdings to your identity.

If someone has, let's say 10 btc in cold storage and only him/her knows about that btc, how is any state with any perfect crypto bill, able to do anything about confiscating the assets?

If (and that's a big "if") no one else knows about that bitcoin, then they obviously can't seize it specifically. They can raid your house though, searching for anything which might be a seed phrase or private key, or simply "coerce" you until you tell them all they want to know. Governments around the world don't exactly have a great track record on the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.

In fact, I am specifically referring to the fact that IF (big if) NO ONE knows about one's bitcoin holdings there is NOTHING to be seized. Do not assume that there are KYC and exchanges in the middle.
I am solely describing the fact that, theoretically speaking, if only you know about your BTC there rest of the world is out of that.
You can have your brain wallet and move your wealth across nations and borders and no fiat currency limit will stop you.
After all, you have words in your head and UTXOs on the blockchain.

[cr1776]

How can they seize something they cannot see? That is my question!

Because most people are awful when it comes to their privacy. If you have completed KYC at any exchange or centralized service, then chances are they are tracking your withdrawals and linking your withdrawals to your real name. Have you used your main email address to sign up for some competition, giveaway, or airdrop? Have you shared an address on any social media platform, any public forum (such as this one) or via any non-encrypted method of communication (email, instant messaging, SMS, etc.)? Are you using a custodial wallet, web wallet, or SPV wallet? Are you not running your own node? Do you repeatedly search for you own transactions on block explorers without going through Tor? Have you paid someone with crypto and also given them your name, email, phone number, or shipping address? Do you so much as open your wallets over public WiFi? The list goes on. All these things can potentially link your holdings to your identity.

If someone has, let's say 10 btc in cold storage and only him/her knows about that btc, how is any state with any perfect crypto bill, able to do anything about confiscating the assets?

If (and that's a big "if") no one else knows about that bitcoin, then they obviously can't seize it specifically. They can raid your house though, searching for anything which might be a seed phrase or private key, or simply "coerce" you until you tell them all they want to know. Governments around the world don't exactly have a great track record on the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.

In fact, I am specifically referring to the fact that IF (big if) NO ONE knows about one's bitcoin holdings there is NOTHING to be seized. Do not assume that there are KYC and exchanges in the middle.
I am solely describing the fact that, theoretically speaking, if only you know about your BTC there rest of the world is out of that.
You can have your brain wallet and move your wealth across nations and borders and no fiat currency limit will stop you.
After all, you have words in your head and UTXOs on the blockchain.

And if it is getting anywhere near the point where they are going to be knocking down doors and using coercion on people to confiscate bitcoin, it is time to cross the border before it begins and borders are shut down.  One would think there would be some warnings about what is to come.  In Cyprus in 2013, there was no overt warning about the coming capital controls and bank seizures, but there were a lot of warning signs.

The problem is once you hit the "Cyprus 2013" scenario, it is probably too late to buy bitcoin or much else, so it is imperative for people like those in Hong Kong, Taiwan etc to purchase them before that so that if it is getting to the point of capital controls and eventually border controls for people, one has a backup plan in place.

[teosanru]

If there are Russian users reading this, it might be good to begin learning about Monero and other anonymous coins. You cannot risk your wallets being tainted with dirty coins if it is not tainted already. Also, I know there might be some of you would who will use the argument that there was data from Chainalysis that showed only 1% of bitcoin transactions were criminal. However, you cannot trust the Russian government not to frame you or taint your wallet themselves.

This is okay if your wallet holds only a small amount. What if you are a holder of $1 million in bitcoin? You might not be 100% safe.



Russian Prosecutor General Igor Krasnov has revealed that legislative amendments are being prepared on the confiscation of crypto assets. “A serious challenge is the criminal use of cryptocurrencies in our country,” he said.

Russia is preparing amendments to the current legislation to allow for the confiscation of crypto assets found to be proceeds from crime, Tass reported Wednesday.

Krasnov said that virtual assets have become a source of income for criminals, emphasizing that cryptocurrencies are being used for corruption, including bribery. “The latency of these criminal acts has recently been aggravated by the use of crypto assets as bribes,” he asserted, adding that cryptocurrency exchanges have been used as “a way of laundering stolen funds.”

Read in full https://news.bitcoin.com/russia-drafting-law-confiscation-crypto-assets/

In any communist country for that matter confiscation by the government is a real threat. Who knows if you have received some money from someone who was a gambler or a scammer and as per the money laundering law you know are also considered as a part of this whole act? Will you be given a chance to explain that this transaction you made was for a legitimate cause? Even if you are heard what are the chances that this would be believed? Confiscation is a really huge blunder that these governments are going to do, this way almost anyone can be caught into the whole act even if he is entirely innocent.

@o_e_l_e_o. What the Russian government can do is hire a service similar to Chainalysis and blacklist certain addresses, warn exchanges of those addresses and follow those wallets’ transactions. I am not quite certain if exchanges are fearful of the Russian government enough to freeze accounts that have received transactions from blacklisted wallets, however.

How can they seize something they cannot see? That is my question!
If someone has, let's say 10 btc in cold storage and only him/her knows about that btc, how is any state with any perfect crypto bill, able to do anything about confiscating the assets?
Of course if you know somebody has got btc than you could force him/her to hand over the keys, but if there are no "visible" keys, what are they going to confiscate?

Oh C'mon, privacy is a myth in today's world, you are leaving tons of data every day on each and every website that you hover on, forget about any government I think even a normal ethical hacker would be able to find identity of 90% of people on this forum.

[o_e_l_e_o]

In fact, I am specifically referring to the fact that IF (big if) NO ONE knows about one's bitcoin holdings there is NOTHING to be seized. Do not assume that there are KYC and exchanges in the middle.

Yes, that's true, but the problem is that very few bitcoin are actually truly anonymous, the majority of people are very lax with their privacy, and even people who think they are being great with their privacy are probably still slipping up somewhere. It is nigh impossible to be truly anonymous on the internet, let alone with something with an immutable ledger of all activities such as bitcoin.

You can have your brain wallet and move your wealth across nations and borders and no fiat currency limit will stop you.
After all, you have words in your head and UTXOs on the blockchain.

Absolutely, but it is unlikely that backing up your seed phrase on to paper will be the thing that compromises your privacy. Much more likely someone will track the bitcoin you own through blockchain analysis or similar. They might not know where or how you are storing them, but they will be pretty certain they belong to you and will simply coerce you to hand over the details.