Question: What is going to protect authentic physical bitcoins?

[Steeley]

ChiBitCty and I just did a friendly trade recently to add things neither of us had in our collections. One of the coins he threw into the lot from his side was a coin I was unfamiliar with. It is a Delos Nordic Gold coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2865959.

Cool coin. Anyway, I was on Amazon buying something boring, like cleaning supplies, and this is suggested to me: https://www.amazon.com/Bitcoin-Commemorative-Coin-Collectibles-Souvenir/dp/B093HJSF6C/ref=rtpb_4/138-9484906-7861738?pd_rd_w=szZyo&pf_rd_p=d469445f-f379-4439-8279-2c1ffdd6191d&pf_rd_r=5KWQHKD7MS064TV3S4DQ&pd_rd_r=40039ba5-f578-45c7-ae17-89cef1054c5f&pd_rd_wg=MbP7G&pd_rd_i=B093HJSF6C&psc=1

WTF? First, Is Amazon spying on me? yes. But more importantly, $4.75 for a piece a crap coin that steals designs from two legit designers?!

So anyway, just ranting mostly, but it does lead to a question: What is going to maintain authenticity and collectible value into the future while bitcoin becomes more valuable, the collectible market grows, and even more scam artists and copycats enter the arena?

Is seems like cheapo knock-offs are multiplying and that non-loaded tokens are screwed. The funded coins at least have the blockchain as an authenticator. With ANACS out of the game maybe IGC gets serious and doubles down with more service? Maybe something new needs to arise to help validate and preserve the value that designers are creating?

What do you think?

Steeley

[MoparMiningLLC]

but even funded ones are at risk - especially with those that do not know much. I was sharing with a few others a guy selling Cas coins as

5 Casascius Bitcoins in protective cases. All coded. Uncirculated. Only 20,000 made. Not sold at auction, fixed price $20,000. One sold on EBay for $28,700.

yet the images show the coins with holo's that are not cas holo's and the guy even then tells me he doesn't "know who generated holograms"

first - if they are uncirculated that means he had to have done it right? or bought them from the person who did.

if he truly sold one for that price, then there are some unknowing people out there.

[NeuroticFish]

Is seems like cheapo knock-offs are multiplying

Chinese shops are full of cheap imitations of physical Bitcoins and similar collectibles for years, really. The fact that this also reached Amazon and EBay is just a next step.
I'm not sure about a solution. Most probably the chemical content will tell over the years which one is the original.

[andulolika]

Lol everything spies on you, don't blame it on amazon.

[MrCryptHodl]

from my point of view nothing guarantees the authenticity of a coin apart from the sale of the creator or the purchase on Bitcointalk.

Personally I do not take the risk of buying collectibles outside the Forum.

And we can say that amazon is spying on you, But if you have all the cookies activated etc.. it is normal that the ad is targeted, we can say that you offer them the information  

[minerjones]

ChiBitCty and I just did a friendly trade recently to add things neither of us had in our collections. One of the coins he threw into the lot from his side was a coin I was unfamiliar with. It is a Delos Nordic Gold coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2865959.

Cool coin. Anyway, I was on Amazon buying something boring, like cleaning supplies, and this is suggested to me: https://www.amazon.com/Bitcoin-Commemorative-Coin-Collectibles-Souvenir/dp/B093HJSF6C/ref=rtpb_4/138-9484906-7861738?pd_rd_w=szZyo&pf_rd_p=d469445f-f379-4439-8279-2c1ffdd6191d&pf_rd_r=5KWQHKD7MS064TV3S4DQ&pd_rd_r=40039ba5-f578-45c7-ae17-89cef1054c5f&pd_rd_wg=MbP7G&pd_rd_i=B093HJSF6C&psc=1

WTF? First, Is Amazon spying on me? yes. But more importantly, $4.75 for a piece a crap coin that steals designs from two legit designers?!

So anyway, just ranting mostly, but it does lead to a question: What is going to maintain authenticity and collectible value into the future while bitcoin becomes more valuable, the collectible market grows, and even more scam artists and copycats enter the arena?

Is seems like cheapo knock-offs are multiplying and that non-loaded tokens are screwed. The funded coins at least have the blockchain as an authenticator. With ANACS out of the game maybe IGC gets serious and doubles down with more service? Maybe something new needs to arise to help validate and preserve the value that designers are creating?

What do you think?

Steeley

You do realize that Delos maker borrowed the design from another maker.....
The Delos coins are also about 1/2 the size of the linked coin, which appears to be a "standard" 39mm/1oz coin.
The original coins were made early on around 2013 or so... and sold on this forum.
If I can find the post, will link it.

EDIT: Here is link to the original coin sales from member grbox2001: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=233727
*The coins may have come out before 2013, but this is the earliest post I could find. The opening words are "OK back after a long time",
so it would be possible that they were released before 2013

[yimfinity]

Is seems like cheapo knock-offs are multiplying and that non-loaded tokens are screwed. The funded coins at least have the blockchain as an authenticator. With ANACS out of the game maybe IGC gets serious and doubles down with more service? Maybe something new needs to arise to help validate and preserve the value that designers are creating?

I think there will be more value accrued to the graded/slabbed coins that have provenance that they were graded early on / well before known passable fakes come out (whenever that is).

[Steeley]

ChiBitCty and I just did a friendly trade recently to add things neither of us had in our collections. One of the coins he threw into the lot from his side was a coin I was unfamiliar with. It is a Delos Nordic Gold coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2865959.

Cool coin. Anyway, I was on Amazon buying something boring, like cleaning supplies, and this is suggested to me: https://www.amazon.com/Bitcoin-Commemorative-Coin-Collectibles-Souvenir/dp/B093HJSF6C/ref=rtpb_4/138-9484906-7861738?pd_rd_w=szZyo&pf_rd_p=d469445f-f379-4439-8279-2c1ffdd6191d&pf_rd_r=5KWQHKD7MS064TV3S4DQ&pd_rd_r=40039ba5-f578-45c7-ae17-89cef1054c5f&pd_rd_wg=MbP7G&pd_rd_i=B093HJSF6C&psc=1

WTF? First, Is Amazon spying on me? yes. But more importantly, $4.75 for a piece a crap coin that steals designs from two legit designers?!

So anyway, just ranting mostly, but it does lead to a question: What is going to maintain authenticity and collectible value into the future while bitcoin becomes more valuable, the collectible market grows, and even more scam artists and copycats enter the arena?

Is seems like cheapo knock-offs are multiplying and that non-loaded tokens are screwed. The funded coins at least have the blockchain as an authenticator. With ANACS out of the game maybe IGC gets serious and doubles down with more service? Maybe something new needs to arise to help validate and preserve the value that designers are creating?

What do you think?

Steeley

You do realize that Delos maker borrowed the design from another maker.....
The Delos coins are also about 1/2 the size of the linked coin, which appears to be a "standard" 39mm/1oz coin.
The original coins were made early on around 2013 or so... and sold on this forum.
If I can find the post, will link it.

EDIT: Here is link to the original coin sales from member grbox2001: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=233727
*The coins may have come out before 2013, but this is the earliest post I could find. The opening words are "OK back after a long time",
so it would be possible that they were released before 2013

It's kind of strange to me that if you go to all the trouble to set up a coin project that you would copy another design. An homage to a great design is maybe understandable, as a tribute, but strange to be a creator creating other people's ideas. More power to CI, Kialara, Bitcoin Penny, Alpen and all the many more great creators still making new items.

[Steeley]

Is seems like cheapo knock-offs are multiplying and that non-loaded tokens are screwed. The funded coins at least have the blockchain as an authenticator. With ANACS out of the game maybe IGC gets serious and doubles down with more service? Maybe something new needs to arise to help validate and preserve the value that designers are creating?

I think there will be more value accrued to the graded/slabbed coins that have provenance that they were graded early on / well before known passable fakes come out (whenever that is).

I agree. I think the value of grading is going to increase by multiples if the physical bitcoin collectibles grow in interest.

[OgNasty]

Is seems like cheapo knock-offs are multiplying and that non-loaded tokens are screwed. The funded coins at least have the blockchain as an authenticator. With ANACS out of the game maybe IGC gets serious and doubles down with more service? Maybe something new needs to arise to help validate and preserve the value that designers are creating?

I think there will be more value accrued to the graded/slabbed coins that have provenance that they were graded early on / well before known passable fakes come out (whenever that is).

I agree. I think the value of grading is going to increase by multiples if the physical bitcoin collectibles grow in interest.

Grading companies don’t authenticate these products as there would be no way to do so with many of the small makers involved, they grade it’s condition. It’s likely this misconception that has them refusing to further grade crypto coins. I doubt it would have been hard to get a fake graded a few years ago. People did used to address this concern with signed chains of ownership and dealing only with trusted members. I always thought at one point reputable sellers with long held collections would be a coveted premium, but we aren’t there yet from my experience.

[iBitcoinHongKong8]

Grading companies don’t authenticate these products as there would be no way to do so with many of the small makers involved, they grade it’s condition. It’s likely this misconception that has them refusing to further grade crypto coins. I doubt it would have been hard to get a fake graded a few years ago. People did used to address this concern with signed chains of ownership and dealing only with trusted members. I always thought at one point reputable sellers with long held collections would be a coveted premium, but we aren’t there yet from my experience.

I agree completely with OG here. When I first joined the forum I had lurked for a bit prior and when it finally came time to buy I made sure to buy from solid well known members with good reputations for doing business. As I continued to buy the reputation of the sellers only became more important to me over time. I don't know if this will matter for certain in the future but I certainly know it can't hurt.

iBHK8

[yimfinity]

Grading companies don’t authenticate these products as there would be no way to do so with many of the small makers involved, they grade it’s condition. It’s likely this misconception that has them refusing to further grade crypto coins. I doubt it would have been hard to get a fake graded a few years ago. People did used to address this concern with signed chains of ownership and dealing only with trusted members. I always thought at one point reputable sellers with long held collections would be a coveted premium, but we aren’t there yet from my experience.

I agree completely with OG here. When I first joined the forum I had lurked for a bit prior and when it finally came time to buy I made sure to buy from solid well known members with good reputations for doing business. As I continued to buy the reputation of the sellers only became more important to me over time. I don't know if this will matter for certain in the future but I certainly know it can't hurt.

iBHK8

Yes, but anti-tamper slabs are also valuable for time stamping. For example, there have been no great fakes of Casascius coins even to this date. So if you are buying a slabbed Cas from say 2018, and it looks like a Cas from any visible observations, and firstbits check out, it's likely to be real. Same can't be said for raw Cas in the future say if some compelling fakes come out. Provenance and chains of custody are great, but I don't see it as an OR but an AND situation. Also slabs do a good job at preserving the coins and preventing the urge to touch your coins

[raritycheck]

This is such an interesting topic.
When we are selling our coins we are putting them in ever slabs and adding as much security as possible (Holo + certificates + some 3-d stickers). We are also taking pictures of the slabs for future references and everything but at the end of the day, you guys are correct, unless the coins are graded it will be hard to make sure that the coins are original (let's say 3-5 years from today).

Trust is also a huge issue. For example, god forbid, but for whatever reason we have to take out Satoshis from our own unsold coins, only way to do that would be to actually peel the holos (which would be sad). But how can one make the other person realize that they can trust us. This is something which can take time.

But all the points made above by  Mopar, OG, Hongkong, MJ, Steeley, etc are great points. And also, those are some good things to remember while buying any Physical coins.

Hopefully, over time, more ways to secure coins will come in the market or more advance ways to figure out if a coin is genuine (AI with computer vision?) or not.

~
RC