A Game of Governments - China and Authoritarism

[paxmao]

Two forces are at play in China and hence in the world. On one side, it is an authoritarian regime that bans many basic rights including the free use of crypto, in the name of harmony and social peace. On the other side the current regime has been able to take hundreds of millions of people out of hunger and abject poverty.

As China takes the economic lead of the world, or at least a significance that does not allow simply ignoring it, that government style or regime will have an gigantic influence on other countries that may sympathize with a successful authoritarian regime and see it as a proof of success without democracy. The oligarchies, the theocracies, presidential regimes and dictatorships will enjoy an unprecedented practical and even moral support from a giant example.

On the other side, while democracies seem week because they seem to be always in disarray and dissention internally, they have a proven record of allowing the flexibility and the mutual recognition of power of the different factual powers and groups. Also, it can be seen that historically, countries that progress generate a gentry class that wants real intervention in government.

What will happen? Will China grow in strength and authoritarianism and propel those countries that are akin or will the internal power of the middle class aim for a "perestroika" of short of the system?

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[Haunebu]

I admit that China is developing quickly and is easily one of the biggest powerhouses in the world currently, but their current government is imperfect just like literally every government in this world.

Example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp

Their authoritarian regime brought about improvements in some areas while declines could be noticed in other areas.

Their strong stance against cryptocurrencies has definitely affected the market on multiple occasions which is why I feel that the current regime is bad for the cryptocurrency market overall.

[arallmuus]

Two forces are at play in China and hence in the world. On one side, it is an authoritarian regime that bans many basic rights including the free use of crypto

They are only able to force their own regulation with the limitation on their own citizen. If you dont live in China they you got nothing to do with any of their silly regulation regarding crypto. The fact that most of those silly regulation actually affects the bitcoin price was because there were large group of miners and probably early adopters in the country

As China takes the economic lead of the world, or at least a significance that does not allow simply ignoring it, that government style or regime will have an gigantic influence on other countries that may sympathize with a successful authoritarian regime

Their influence is also limited to few countries that fall onto their debt-trap diplomacy so unless a country does fall into their debt-trap diplomacy then China has nothing to say about anything on that country. Things might change in the future though especially after the pandemic ended because China would be leading the economy once things settled so China probably could influence the other countries

[Hydrogen]

I have been thinking along the lines mentioned by OP for awhile now. There are many different angles and facets to it. Its a difficult puzzle to anticipate, much less predict. There are many unusual angles and twists to it, we wouldn't expect.

To try to understand our current day predicament, I think a person has to be aware of certain basic fundamentals of history. There are patterns which repeat over the last few thousand years. Modern day totalitarianism isn't so different from monarchy of past eras. Most historic struggles were class warfare waged between the rich and poor. With current debates revolving around wage and wealth inequality, we might question whether anything has really changed.

China might be compared to being version 2.0 of the USSR. Its political and power hierarchy is very similar to the USSR with a few upgrades. China is more friendly towards innovation, progress and capitalism than the USSR was in an effort to offset some of the USSR's biggest shortcomings. Many USSR era drawbacks however remain. There's such a long list of aspects to china by itself, I couldn't do its justice in a short post.

I couldn't pick a winner in the global conflict between populism and socialism. Whatever happens I hope people learn from the experience, and that we're all able to make better choices and decisions in the future. Aside from that don't have much of a clue how things will play out.

[STT]

Command economy effect I think this is called, China can put a steel rod down the back anything alive or dead and make it dance to whatever tune it plays.   They can force things to be true that no other country could pull off, they can be both the producer and the consumer so vast is their potential market who can argue with them.

I still believe a free market is vastly superior because China relies on a top down decision process they also make horrible mistakes.   If they force something to be true, I dont doubt it happens but also means the mistake becomes bigger not that it no longer exists.    There is no nation, no person, party or army that can alter the tides, they cant alter natural phenomena and a market is a natural phenomena.   I think the same thing of QE and other fixed pricing that western governments use, these will result in losses and in the end the control exerted will fail and break where we revert back to natural processes between supply and demand.

Comparative advantage tells us that efficiency rules the world and the greatest profit freely available goes to those who can innovate and provide to the greatest efficiency.   Authoritarianism does not equate to efficiency.   China can flood a free market with the cheapest iron/steel in the world for example and wipe out the profits of every producer world wide because they have that excess capacity and out of all fuel China does have alot of coal I believe so the resources are there.  They then hope to profit from the now lack of Steel production outside their borders, some people think this works but its also true China paid for cheap iron to be supplied to other countries.   Its the job of countries to utilize those cheap resources best I guess, also regulate quality would be wise.

On the other side the current regime has been able to    take    stop taking hundreds of millions of people   out of  into hunger and abject poverty.

[Tim-BTC]

I think we need to really understand China before we can judge its system.
Whether in the East or the West, different systems have their own advantages and disadvantages. The freedom promoted by Western countries is not as beautiful as imagined, and it is accompanied by a surge in crime rates. China's "authoritarianism" can fully deploy resources and help advance certain aspects.
As far as I know, at least the interests of the Chinese people are guaranteed. From this epidemic, it can be seen that the Chinese government puts people’s lives first.
Chinese miners use hydropower resources to mine bitcoins, and then the US government prints large amounts of US dollars at low cost to buy bitcoins. This is equivalent to the United States in exchange for China's Bitcoin at a very low price. The Chinese government bans mining, I think it is to protect his resources.

[so98nn]

May be we have seen some reformation of communist party but without hand full success in China. I am always baffled with the China stories and there is always something different about them. Whether they are in talks about their economical situation or political views or freedom to middle class peeps, they are always exactly opposite to the whole world.

Wondering how they could manage the whole system with such large population. Though they have democratically active community and they should have had bigger influence of the same looking at the current population.

May be these people are just living under the strong influence of unprecedented orders. That could be the reason they just living the low and giant companies and owners are flourishing with powerful decision making influence in the political agenda.

That’s what driving China towards new powerful country unfortunately with peeps completely in control of them.

[Cnut237]

China will certainly continue to grow in strength. Its biggest challenge is probably an aging population due to the legacy of the one child policy... but then the world's most developed nations have a similar problem, most notably Japan.

They have as the OP says taken hundreds of millions out of poverty, but at the same time instigated ethnic cleansing against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. China's power (and the potential for lucrative trade deals) means that there has been no real international outcry against what amounts to genocide... no protests beyond a bit of symbolic hand-wringing. China's wealth and size is what makes them immune to criticism.

So whilst this may encourage other authoritarian regimes around the world, it's not like smaller nations can act like China with impunity. If a random Central American or Middle Eastern nation started killing its own people, the US army would be in very quickly.

There is also a danger in seeing China as simply a new version of Russia. They're not; and they represent a much greater threat to US hegemony. For an example of this, we need look no further than the Belt and Road project. This has been condemned as neocolonialist, and as debt-trap diplomacy... but still, protests amount to mere words, and are utterly ineffective. 139 countries are now signed up to Belt and Road, accounting for 40 percent of global GDP, and 63 percent of the world’s population.

This will be China's century. There is very little that anyone can do to change this, or to influence Chinese policy.


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[Kong Hey Pakboy]

I don't believe what China reports that they show to the world because it's not like it's their first deceiving people and we all know how an authoritarian government works, they try to make it seem like it's a utopia down there when in reality it's a big dystopia that only benefits the few.

[Poker Player]

They have as the OP says taken hundreds of millions out of poverty,

I'll do my own thing.

Whether China has lifted millions out of poverty is not a question of more or less authoritarianism. It is a matter of having moved away from Communism and gradually embraced Capitalism. There is still a lot of state intervention in the economy but there is also in many developed countries, which shows that leaving room for private initiative, and for people to enrich themselves combined with state control is a system that works.

They simply understood that classical communism does not work and have found a state-private initiative combination that works very well.

What they have not departed so far from classical communist regimes is authoritarianism. I would like to think that if people draw a lesson from the Chinese example, it is that communism does not work, and that it is not precisely authoritarianism that has lifted them out of poverty but rather the fact that they have been allowed a certain economic freedom, but I do not see that in the world in general this reading is being made.

[Cnut237]

leaving room for private initiative, and for people to enrich themselves combined with state control is a system that works.

They simply understood that classical communism does not work and have found a state-private initiative combination that works very well.

I never thought I'd see you as a champion of state intervention!
But yes, it does work very well from an economic perspective*. There is a strong government that allows and encourages capitalist practices, but reins in excesses and maintains a guiding hand - actually, controlling hand - over the overall economy. The five year plan is still a thing.

I would like to think that if people draw a lesson from the Chinese example, it is that communism does not work, and that it is not precisely authoritarianism that has lifted them out of poverty but rather the fact that they have been allowed a certain economic freedom, but I do not see that in the world in general this reading is being made.

I'm not sure anyone would dispute this. The Chinese market reforms are what led to the period of crazy growth and export-led industrialisation.
I'd be surprised to see anyone saying that communism does work, when historical attempts at communism always give us the same terrible outcome.

What they have not departed so far from classical communist regimes is authoritarianism.

Yes, this is the problem. China's huge size and power means that no other nation feels able to challenge them on things such as human rights abuses. If you anger China, you endanger your relationship with the world's most lucrative trading partner.


*_{but not necessarily or always from a human perspective.}

[Sterbens]

Don't be too friendly with China, remember with some countries, the most prominent being Sri Lanka, which was trapped by Chinese policies and dragged them into the colonial era of Chinese capitalism. it all started with the

state's economic belief that it could provide relief but with deadly consequences. Wouldn't it be better to make peace with the US and then stop the pursuit of China in the world's economic colonies? rather than allowing it to

take away the rights that were annexed by Yuanization. natural wealth, natural resources in their own country have been taken by Chinese colonialism who tried to do hunting without industrial freedom.

oh well let me keep it simple, look around you. any objects duplicated by the Chinese project? with their motto that is Shanzhai.

[bekti3]

What will happen? Will China grow in strength and authoritarianism and propel those countries that are akin or will the internal power of the middle class aim for a "perestroika" of short of the system?

maybe, if you look at the movement of China which has penetrated into every corner of the country and offers some waivers that its rival the US does not offer. It is possible that we will soon witness an economic trade war that is far more aggressive than usual.

[Ucy]

The problem with being authoritarian is if you are blind ruler, you will be leading millions/billions into hell without anyone couragous enough to stop you.  
You need your subject watching and correcting you when you are erring.

You can't ban basic human rights and still think you aren't leading people blindly and in the wrong direction(to hell)

[mckinleeanael07]

The Chinese government have always been liars, and I don't like them myself. They always do many bad things such as food containing carcinogens, recently the covid epidemic also came from Wuhan China, but any ideology has its limitations and good points. For example, the capitalist countries of Britain, the United States, and France mostly increase the number of criminals using and illegally trading, including terrorism.

[bonghip]

China is a country with a large territory, the largest population in the world and an economy that is always at the top. Therefore, China will always have a huge influence on the world economy, especially the crypto market. The Chinese government has always been authoritarian and has come up with very brutal policies. It seems that China has always liked to confront the world. But China is really talented

[Kakmakr]

China is one of the oldest civilizations in this world and after centuries of their existence, they still ruling with a iron fist.... bashing the rights of their disciplined citizens. We should give credit, where credit is due.... they took China from a communist regime to a world class economy.... something that cannot be said about many of the other communist regimes.   

Yes, they violate the rights of their citizens..... but some of them are filthy rich and many of them are not living in absolute poverty.. like we see in other democratic capitalist countries ..where there are a huge divide between the super rich and the poor. 

[just_Alice]

I hope people remember the history and won’t make mistakes of the past. I sincerely don’t get how authoritarianism is still possible in today’s world. And not only possible, but some countries are actually moving in that direction.

Take Russia, as an example. After the 90’s they’ve made large progress and it seemed like democracy will propel there one day, but considering the latest events (the power pressuring opposition, country banning certain websites, rising number of restrictions, etc.) they’re closer to becoming like China, than a democratic country.

Yes, democracy isn’t perfect and has its issues, but people must have their rights and shouldn’t be forcibly controlled “for the good of the country”, that is just wrong.

[Darker45]

Such a very interesting discussion. However, I do not believe that China is enough to be a model for countries to take on totalitarianism as the best way forward. China's totalitarian approach may have lead the country into abundance. However, history does not lack of totalitarian rulers and states which have instead lead the people into perdition. You can put China's case on one scale of the balance, but on the other scale you can put a lot of failed totalitarian regimes. Surely, the latter would outweigh China.

China's case could be a special one. It's success could be a combination of culture, extreme poverty, abundance of untapped labor, unempowered citizenry, and so on. Countries inclined to emulate that of China's ruling approach should closely study their own distinctive characteristics. After all, what may apply to the Chinese people may not apply to others.

[mu_enrico]

Products made in China have lower quality, cannot last for a long time or it easily breaks. But yeah, the advertisements are nice! Don't you get it? China is only strong in its advertisement and propaganda. In reality, their economy is not as strong as people think, and they built their stability on top of sinking sand.

If you only read everything good about China, well that's because they put dissenting voices into "re-education" camps, killed political opposition because of the death penalty for "corruption," and paid shills.

Worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UfO4gpML4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTeIu2Lters

Tell me that's behavior from economically powerful country.