Why doesn't bitcoin have a "freeze" function?

[larry_vw_1955]

Without the password, a copy of a core wallet using a password is useless.
It does not give you access to unencrypted data, the password is part of the decryption of that data.

Yeah most wallets are not working that way though. all the pin/password does it secure the wallet ON THAT DEVICE. doesn't stop someone from importing the seed onto some other device and using a brand new password...you use core??

[larry_vw_1955]

In Bitcoin we don't carry around a card that lets us spend our bitcoin,

Because there is something people carry around that lets them spend their bitcoin. It's called their smart phone. lose that and you might lose your bitcoin!

To say Bitcoin needs a "freeze" function is to say you don't understand how Bitcoin works, Larry.

Well what if I said I wanted a way to "freeze" some bitcoin so that it can't be spent until a particular time in the future, at which point it would become "unfrozen", but if I wanted to, I could "refreeze" it. Would that also mean I didn't understand how bitcoin works? Why do I need to be able to specify for exactly how long I want it frozen for? What if I don't know exactly how long??

[Wind_FURY]

OP, you want a “freeze feature” that works as closely like that to your credit/debit card account issued by your bank? Find a Bitcoin service that holds your all your keys for you, that also has developed as nice UI/UX. Bitcoin might not be user-friendly, but it works as intended and has always upheld it’s main value proposition.

[larry_vw_1955]

OP, you want a “freeze feature” that works as closely like that to your credit/debit card account issued by your bank? Find a Bitcoin service that holds your all your keys for you, that also has developed as nice UI/UX. Bitcoin might not be user-friendly, but it works as intended and has always upheld it’s main value proposition.

that's easy to say but i don't know of any bitcoin service like that. unless my deposits are insured with them by the united states government then i can't really trust it. sorry.

[Pmalek]

You can't clone my credit card.

Ever heard of credit card skimming? It captures the info on the magnetic strip and steals the credit card number and the CVV code. A camera records you as you enter your PIN code. I read a story a few years ago about a guy who worked at a gas station who was skimming the cards of some of the customers. He would first give them a fake lookalike device to swipe their card and enter their PIN. After that he would say, crap the device isn't working. Please try this one. He would then connect the real one and have them pay what they owed. There are ways to do it.

Plus, you could very well end up in jail if you weren't careful.

That's unimportant at this point. We aren't discussing potential punishments. 

unless my deposits are insured with them by the united states government then i can't really trust it. sorry.

Bitcoin isn't insured by the US government or anyone else either. Do you trust and use it?

[o_e_l_e_o]

all the pin/password does it secure the wallet ON THAT DEVICE. doesn't stop someone from importing the seed onto some other device and using a brand new password

You keep changing the goalposts as to what you are trying to achieve and what attack vectors you are trying to protect against. If you are concerned about someone stealing your seed phrase, then simply extend it with a long and complex passphrase. This is different to the password which is only used locally to access your wallet file, and is instead combined with the seed phrase when deriving your private keys. If someone steals your seed phrase, they can still recover it but will recover a completely different wallet to the one which is recovered when also using your passphrase. Indeed, they won't even know that a passphrased wallet exists.

Or, you can also use the multi-sig setup I've described earlier in this thread. If someone steals one of the seed phrases, they can't do anything without also stealing a second seed phrase.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I think we've answered why Bitcoin does not have a freezing function from the very first page. Larry is constantly trying to refute others' valid arguments and the others restate their arguments to refute Larry's utopian proposal.

It's a loop.

[Wind_FURY]

OP, you want a “freeze feature” that works as closely like that to your credit/debit card account issued by your bank? Find a Bitcoin service that holds your all your keys for you, that also has developed as nice UI/UX. Bitcoin might not be user-friendly, but it works as intended and has always upheld it’s main value proposition.

that's easy to say but i don't know of any bitcoin service like that. unless my deposits are insured with them by the united states government then i can't really trust it. sorry.

Then sorry, Bitcoin is “only” an open source project that companies can build on top of it. If you can’t find a Bitcoin service/company with the UI, or the “freeze feature” that you like, then continue using your government-insured bank account’s credit/debit card.

[larry_vw_1955]

Then sorry, Bitcoin is “only” an open source project that companies can build on top of it. If you can’t find a Bitcoin service/company with the UI, or the “freeze feature” that you like, then continue using your government-insured bank account’s credit/debit card.

Well I think that's kind of the point isn't it? There is no such service/company. Anyone you hand over your private keys to makes your bitcoin way more insecure than it would be if you just kept control of it yourself. You acted like their are companies out there that you can actually hand over your bitcoin to and it's no big issue. Well maybe it isnt for you but I have standards one of them is it has to be insured by the government why is that so hard to appreciate? And besides, the title of the thread isnt "who can I hand over my bitcoin to so that I can freeze it whenever I wish". If such a company existed, then there is also the chance that they might put a freeze on your bitcoin without your permission as well. Or they might go out of business. Or get hacked. The list is endless. just like the postings on this thread 

[larry_vw_1955]

You can't clone my credit card.

Ever heard of credit card skimming?

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

That's unimportant at this point. We aren't discussing potential punishments. 

Actually it's quite relevant as to why it's much riskier to try and steal peoples' credit cards and use them than to steal peoples' bitcoin. Their's more laws on the books I would imagine. Stealing crypto you just get a slap on the wrist perhaps.

Bitcoin isn't insured by the US government or anyone else either. Do you trust and use it?

Of course it's not. But everyone here seems to think the only way to have a freeze feature is if bitcoin gets hooked up with a financial institution/"trusted" bank which doesn't make any sense because then you don't even own your bitcoin because you handed it over to them lol. Do I trust and use it? I trust its security but use it for what exactly, I personally haven't found a real use case for it. Anything that I could do with bitcoin, I could do cheaper possibly more efficiently a different way. Maybe in the future though.

[larry_vw_1955]

I think we've answered why Bitcoin does not have a freezing function from the very first page. Larry is constantly trying to refute others' valid arguments and the others restate their arguments to refute Larry's utopian proposal.

It's a loop.

Yes I agree you have all given it your best shot about why bitcoin doesn't have a freezing function. Maybe I should open a new thread and entitle it "How to implment a freezing function in bitcoin" what do you think? Then we could talk about how to make that happen! See because CLTV freezes utxos. So freezing is not unheard of. It's just...

[Wind_FURY]

Then sorry, Bitcoin is “only” an open source project that companies can build on top of it. If you can’t find a Bitcoin service/company with the UI, or the “freeze feature” that you like, then continue using your government-insured bank account’s credit/debit card.

Well I think that's kind of the point isn't it? There is no such service/company.

 


That’s not Bitcoin’s fault.

Anyone you hand over your private keys to makes your bitcoin way more insecure than it would be if you just kept control of it yourself.

Insecure like trusting your bank to hold your money for you?

You acted like their are companies out there that you can actually hand over your bitcoin to and it's no big issue.

It is a big issue. That’s why I told you the comparison between Bitcoin and staying with your bank because of the “freeze function” is stupid.

Well maybe it isnt for you but I have standards one of them is it has to be insured by the government why is that so hard to appreciate?

Hahaha. It’s still not insured if the government, or the bank themselves enable their “freeze function” on your account. Not your keys, not your money.

And besides, the title of the thread isnt "who can I hand over my bitcoin to so that I can freeze it whenever I wish". If such a company existed, then there is also the chance that they might put a freeze on your bitcoin without your permission as well. Or they might go out of business. Or get hacked. The list is endless. just like the postings on this thread  

Then what function would a “freeze feature” be of use, if the key holder is in full control of the coins?

[ABCbits]

You can't clone my credit card.

Ever heard of credit card skimming?

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

Ever heard of credit card shimming?

See https://www.zdnet.com/article/researchers-create-magstripe-versions-of-emv-and-contactless-cards/

Maybe I should open a new thread and entitle it "How to implment a freezing function in bitcoin" what do you think? Then we could talk about how to make that happen! See because CLTV freezes utxos. So freezing is not unheard of. It's just...

So far no one able to show their idea about to implementing "freeze" function without 3rd party, using same private key (to generate address) or other hack. So i doubt we'll see new idea.

[larry_vw_1955]

Hahaha. It’s still not insured if the government, or the bank themselves enable their “freeze function” on your account. Not your keys, not your money.

Any custodial solution they could be required to "freeze" someone's funds no matter what form they are in unless and this is a big one, they keep it hidden underneath their mattress. So all other things being equal, I prefer something to be insured. That way as long as the government and bank don't sieze my cash, it belongs to me! And if the bank happened to go bankrupt the government would step in and pay me back.

Then what function would a “freeze feature” be of use, if the key holder is in full control of the coins?

if bitcoin has the ability to allow people to freeze things at the UTXO level (in a certain sense) then I dont see why it is such a stretch to want to be able to freeze things at the ADDRESS level. not alot of people probably using the UTXO level freezing feature but it is there.

[Pmalek]

but I have standards one of them is it has to be insured by the government why is that so hard to appreciate?

You are in the wrong forum then. Nothing related to Bitcoin is supposed to be insured by a central authority/oppressor.

If such a company existed, then there is also the chance that they might put a freeze on your bitcoin without your permission as well.

That's exactly what your government-insured financial services providers can do. But they can't do it to your Bitcoin stored in non-custodial wallets, with or without a freeze function.

I personally haven't found a real use case for it. Anything that I could do with bitcoin, I could do cheaper possibly more efficiently a different way.

You are from the USA right? Check with your bank how much it would cost you in transaction fees to send a payment to the Balkans? After that, you can calculate how much the equivalent of that would cost if you spent one Bitcoin input, no matter where you send it. Consider if that is a use case or not.

And if the bank happened to go bankrupt the government would step in and pay me back.

Your money is insured up to a certain value, but depending on how much you have, not everything will be paid back as you say. For ordinary people, that should be enough though.

The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation is an independent federal agency insuring deposits in U.S. banks and thrifts in the event of bank failures. As of 2020, the FDIC insures deposits up to $250,000 per depositor

Source 

[larry_vw_1955]

Nothing related to Bitcoin is supposed to be insured by a central authority/oppressor.

which is exactly why I would refuse to accept any solution to any problem that requires me to hand over my bitcoin to a 3rd party to gain some type of functionality.

That's exactly what your government-insured financial services providers can do. But they can't do it to your Bitcoin stored in non-custodial wallets, with or without a freeze function.

that's why non-custodial wallets are the preferred way to own bitcoin.

You are from the USA right? Check with your bank how much it would cost you in transaction fees to send a payment to the Balkans? After that, you can calculate how much the equivalent of that would cost if you spent one Bitcoin input, no matter where you send it. Consider if that is a use case or not.

It's not a use case FOR ME.  For someone else, using bitcoin might be the cheapest most cost effective way to send money from the usa to the balkans. I haven't done the research to know whether it is or not. But if somene else has and came to that conclusiion then more power to them.

[Wind_FURY]

Hahaha. It’s still not insured if the government, or the bank themselves enable their “freeze function” on your account. Not your keys, not your money.

Any custodial solution they could be required to "freeze" someone's funds no matter what form they are in unless and this is a big one, they keep it hidden underneath their mattress. So all other things being equal, I prefer something to be insured. That way as long as the government and bank don't sieze my cash, it belongs to me! And if the bank happened to go bankrupt the government would step in and pay me back.

That’s OK, and the system will work until it doesn’t. But people should know, and truly understand that, not your vault, not your money, and governments can lose control of the financial system. Bitcoin is a good fall back/back up.

Then what function would a “freeze feature” be of use, if the key holder is in full control of the coins?

if bitcoin has the ability to allow people to freeze things at the UTXO level (in a certain sense) then I dont see why it is such a stretch to want to be able to freeze things at the ADDRESS level. not alot of people probably using the UTXO level freezing feature but it is there.

It’s a front-end, UI issue, not a protocol issue. Ask your favorite Bitcoin wallet.

[larry_vw_1955]

That’s OK, and the system will work until it doesn’t. But people should know, and truly understand that, not your vault, not your money, and governments can lose control of the financial system. Bitcoin is a good fall back/back up.

I suppose if the us dollar ever became worthless so that people used it as toilet paper, MAYBE bitcoin could be some form of bartering value but that's just a maybe. Gold and silver would be more likely. Or other things like gasoline or food or shelter. Physical assets. Not intangibles.

It’s a front-end, UI issue, not a protocol issue. Ask your favorite Bitcoin wallet.

for the utxo freezing yeah, people should complain to their wallet dev team about that. but it's probably not going to help because people would end up freezing their bitcoin and not being able to spend it for YEARS. and then blaming the wallet.

[PrimeNumber7]

You can't clone my credit card.

Ever heard of credit card skimming?

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

Ever heard of credit card shimming?

See https://www.zdnet.com/article/researchers-create-magstripe-versions-of-emv-and-contactless-cards/

Card skimming, or card shimming does not affect the end-user of a credit card, beyond a fairly minor inconvenience. While the law says that consumers have no more than $50 in liability when their credit card is stolen, most credit card issuers have "$0 liability" policies, and consumers are not liable when their credit card number is used due to a data breach. This is something that was pointed out on the first page.

Unless and until a third party is willing to insulate consumers from losses from "unauthorized" bitcoin transactions, the OP's proposal is moot. The only reason why a third party might be willing to cover these types of losses would be if the third party maintained exclusive control over the private keys controlling the coin. It should go without saying that this type of setup creates more problems than it solves.

I think we've answered why Bitcoin does not have a freezing function from the very first page. Larry is constantly trying to refute others' valid arguments and the others restate their arguments to refute Larry's utopian proposal.

It's a loop.

I have seen other people engage in similar behavior recently. I appreciate Larry's desire to improve upon bitcoin, even if his specific proposal is not something that should be implemented. I encourage Larry and others to come up with ways to improve bitcoin. I somewhat suspect that some people propose flawed ideas with the hope of having their idea implanted, and being able to write this on their resume.

[Wind_FURY]

That’s OK, and the system will work until it doesn’t. But people should know, and truly understand that, not your vault, not your money, and governments can lose control of the financial system. Bitcoin is a good fall back/back up.

I suppose if the us dollar ever became worthless so that people used it as toilet paper, MAYBE bitcoin could be some form of bartering value but that's just a maybe. Gold and silver would be more likely. Or other things like gasoline or food or shelter. Physical assets. Not intangibles.

Then from that that inefficiency something will be invented to make barter, and trade more efficient. In the internet, there needs to be a way to make a trade with a currency that users don’t need permission to use, that can’t be censored by an authority. It might not have a “freeze function”, but it’s enough to make your Heroine purchase from the dark market.