New metal seed backup method

[BlackHatCoiner]

How much do you think the wallet having the option to display the entropy in a visual format and creating this seed backup method from that alleviates this concern? I'm thinking it could be displayed something like this (again using "satoshi:10111111011"): •^o••••••^o••

It seems the same thing to me. It doesn't have a huge difference if you use 1's or •'s. You have to tackle the issue, by understanding how one would make a mistake. In these dots it isn't easy to recognize the position. One simply solution would be to show them like that:

Positions:
1: •
2: o
3: •
4: •
5: •
6: •
7: •
8: •
9: o
10: •
11: •

So the user just looks at the position which is shown in the left and then, the result. Still, the odds for a human mistake are more than with twelve words.

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[decodx]

I like the idea of possibly being able to scan the binary directly into a device but
it seems like it could be a bit more involved and could make it look more complicated.

Assuming that you are familiar with mobile app programming, it would be relatively easy to make a simple app that would scan via the built-in camera and automatically convert to seed words. Something like a QR code scanner. There is just one problem, however: who would trust such an application?

[dkbit98]

I believe this could be a good way to make metal backups simple and accessible to a wider audience as it only costs a couple of dollars to make each one and with the support of wallet software can be made very quick and simple to do.

This is really interesting idea to make durable and very cheap metallic backup for your seed words, that most people wouldn't even know to read and crack, so it is another layer of protection.
It would be nice if you could record a video explaining the procedure and tools you used to punch holes in stainless steel plates.
I would solve the ''issue'' of family members not understanding this code with a special letter (or video) with instructions for decoding, but this should be separated from plate itself.

How much time you needed for creating and completing one metal backup seed plate like this?

[jakob6102]

I believe this could be a good way to make metal backups simple and accessible to a wider audience as it only costs a couple of dollars to make each one and with the support of wallet software can be made very quick and simple to do.

This is really interesting idea to make durable and very cheap metallic backup for your seed words, that most people wouldn't even know to read and crack, so it is another layer of protection.
It would be nice if you could record a video explaining the procedure and tools you used to punch holes in stainless steel plates.
I would solve the ''issue'' of family members not understanding this code with a special letter (or video) with instructions for decoding, but this should be separated from plate itself.

How much time you needed for creating and completing one metal backup seed plate like this?

https://i.imgur.com/rV5jcoG.jpg

I will try and film a guide at the weekend and add it to the github repo. Most of the time involved is converting the seed to binary which probably takes about 10-20 minutes for a 24 word seed. Marking the guide then stamping the metal then takes under 10 minutes to do so that gives you a good idea of how long it would take if your wallet had the option to show you the binary and save you converting it.

[dkbit98]

I will try and film a guide at the weekend and add it to the github repo. Most of the time involved is converting the seed to binary which probably takes about 10-20 minutes for a 24 word seed. Marking the guide then stamping the metal then takes under 10 minutes to do so that gives you a good idea of how long it would take if your wallet had the option to show you the binary and save you converting it.

Maybe someone can also create open source offline tool that can quickly so offline ''translate'' and convert seed words into binary codes, and maybe something like this exists even today.
Electrum wallet is not using BIP39 by default, but there could still be extension created for converting words to binary, and hardware wallets could implement something similar, but it needs to be more popular for someone to invest time making this.

[Coding Enthusiast]

Maybe someone can also create open source offline tool that can quickly so offline ''translate'' and convert seed words into binary codes, and maybe something like this exists even today.

Stay tuned for my new project called HandyDandy, it will focus on this type of things.

[slaman29]

I used stainless steel which wasn't expensive and should be very durable to heat , acid and impacts. Yeah it not being recognisable is both a blessing and a curse, a thief or anyone that sees it isn't going to have any idea it's bitcoin related but then neither will no-coiner family members. Hopefully they should be able to realise it's important enough to not throw out considering its a steel card with a weird code stamped into in  .

I'm not so old and unhealthy to be thinking in panic, but I'm definitely worried everytime I see or hear about a friend who died or who is signing up for a will. I don't really want to go that route yet but for sure have to think about something like this that lasts, and also that can have a high chance of being understandable by someone else.

Imagine, 100 years from now on some AtticTreasure show someone finds your steel plates and buys it for $5 to be used as scrap metal

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You can have a look at test of various metals here : https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

Very cool.  I was going to merit your post, but I've apparently already given you 50 merits in the last month, so I can't give you any more for now!  Dang.  I'm going to bookmark that site.

OP, this is a very interesting approach to storing private keys, and this is one of those times where I'm glad I un-ignored Bitcoin Discussion.  This thread might be better suited for one of the wallets sections, but whatever.  I've bookmarked your github page and the word list conversion one as well for future reference.  This is probably one of the best, most innocuous ways to store keys that I've seen, and if you only own one coin (and holding it long-term) it's much better than a HW wallet IMO.  Thanks for posting this!

Imagine, 100 years from now on some AtticTreasure show someone finds your steel plates and buys it for $5 to be used as scrap metal

That's definitely a risk with a method like this one.  Personally I think anyone with crypto should let at least one person they trust know how to recover the crypto in case they die.  Why let it go to waste?

[Chikito]

OP how thick is that plate? if I hit hard, will it penetrate backward?

What kind of stainless steel?, 300, 400, 200?, As I know, the best stainless steel is with have enough cromium and non magnetic also.

I like the idea of possibly being able to scan the binary directly into a device but
it seems like it could be a bit more involved and could make it look more complicated.

Assuming that you are familiar with mobile app programming, it would be relatively easy to make a simple app that would scan via the built-in camera and automatically convert to seed words. Something like a QR code scanner. There is just one problem, however: who would trust such an application?

So why making it so hard even we can convert binary to text in vice versa using the tool https://github.com/hatgit/BIP39-wordlist-printable-en

[Lucius]

An interesting method, although something similar can be seen with some other solutions sold online. However, I don't think this is for the average user who has a problem saving a regular backup - because in a few years they will probably forget how to extract seed from their metal plate.

This is probably one of the best, most innocuous ways to store keys that I've seen, and if you only own one coin (and holding it long-term) it's much better than a HW wallet IMO.

However, to generate a seed you need some kind of wallet - it has somehow become a common belief that HWs are the safest option for this. If someone after making a backup like this wants to reset HW or delete a complete desktop wallet, maybe this is one way to be safer from some unknown attack vectors in the future.

OP, this is a very interesting approach to storing private keys, and this is one of those times where I'm glad I un-ignored Bitcoin Discussion.

Ignoring as you can see makes no sense, because there are interesting things here - and while reading you can always report everything that is bad - I have already made at least 15 reports on this board today

[aysg76]

Very cool.  I was going to merit your post, but I've apparently already given you 50 merits in the last month, so I can't give you any more for now!  Dang.  I'm going to bookmark that site.

That's kind of you man but merits are just secondary approach but information sharing is what is all our priority and as an effective member of the forum we must contribute towards it regardless of any merit hunting.

But yes i am making you merit points even.Best wishes to you ahead.

[decodx]

I like the idea of possibly being able to scan the binary directly into a device but
it seems like it could be a bit more involved and could make it look more complicated.

Assuming that you are familiar with mobile app programming, it would be relatively easy to make a simple app that would scan via the built-in camera and automatically convert to seed words. Something like a QR code scanner. There is just one problem, however: who would trust such an application?

So why making it so hard even we can convert binary to text in vice versa using the tool https://github.com/hatgit/BIP39-wordlist-printable-en

Because people are lazy? 

In regards to the idea of scanning binary directly into a device, I have seen that some applications can use optical scanning to convert braille to text. This should work similarly, but simpler.

[Imran232]

Hi there, I have been working on a new method for.
..............

 https://github.com/jakob6102/seedcard

...........

You are simply outstanding. I have never seen anything like that for crypto. This is really unique atleast for me. I don't understand how you got this idea. But after seeing the git i totally loved it. You work is truely appreciateable. Hope this will be the next trend in crypto industry. And thanks too for showing me something unique.

Just want to point out one thing, mnemonics can have different lengths[1] such as 12, 15, 18, 21 and 24 with both 12 and 24 words being the most common. You should also include a grid for these word lengths with dimensions to make it easier to print a grid for 12 words for example.

[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki

Well this is also a valid point. Thank you soo much sir for pointingout this point. This is a best thing of a legendary member because of your expertism a begginer like me won't be miss a point what you mention. Because after seeing his git i totally become his fan. I didn't thought about seed numbers but after reading your post i understand it is also needed what the topic creatot didn't mention. Thanks again sir.

[jakob6102]

I like the idea of possibly being able to scan the binary directly into a device but
it seems like it could be a bit more involved and could make it look more complicated.

Assuming that you are familiar with mobile app programming, it would be relatively easy to make a simple app that would scan via the built-in camera and automatically convert to seed words. Something like a QR code scanner. There is just one problem, however: who would trust such an application?

So why making it so hard even we can convert binary to text in vice versa using the tool https://github.com/hatgit/BIP39-wordlist-printable-en

Because people are lazy? 

In regards to the idea of scanning binary directly into a device, I have seen that some applications can use optical scanning to convert braille to text. This should work similarly, but simpler.

Lazy and there's less room for error if you're copying the binary directly off the device. I don't think it would even need to be as complex as a braille reader, as long as the punches show clearly. Funnily enough I tried to find an open source braille reading app/code to see if it could read it but I didn't have any luck.

[slaman29]

Imagine, 100 years from now on some AtticTreasure show someone finds your steel plates and buys it for $5 to be used as scrap metal

That's definitely a risk with a method like this one.  Personally I think anyone with crypto should let at least one person they trust know how to recover the crypto in case they die.  Why let it go to waste?

Yep, like I wrote above, I have been thinking about this a lot. And the problem is less of finding a method (I know even time lock can be used for example) but of finding a method that makes sure even if the person you trust doesn't know enough about Bitcoin, they won't have trouble accessing it after death. Sometimes I think maybe the only way, ironically, is to use a centralized service. Because in my case I know the person I trust is zero literacy about computers. Yes the person know how to surf and send email and use apps but cannot even remember how many times password is reset:)

[bitterguy28]

Imagine, 100 years from now on some AtticTreasure show someone finds your steel plates and buys it for $5 to be used as scrap metal

That's definitely a risk with a method like this one.  Personally I think anyone with crypto should let at least one person they trust know how to recover the crypto in case they die.  Why let it go to waste?

exactly what we must do , actually i started the rally telling someone i love about how to recover my funds in case of accidentally dying.

and part of the recovery is to another person close to me so they must bind together when time comes so there will no single hand that will claim my funds.

[decodx]

... Because in my case I know the person I trust is zero literacy about computers. Yes the person know how to surf and send email and use apps but cannot even remember how many times password is reset:)

How will someone with zero computer literacy use cryptocurrency anyway? Sending an email is one thing, but sending and receiving cryptocurrency is something entirely different.
It might be best to train a trusted individual in the basics of cryptocurrency before an unfortunate event occurs.

[dkbit98]

Stay tuned for my new project called HandyDandy, it will focus on this type of things.

If you are serious about this let me know if you have some github or social media for following progress of that project, sadly I can't keep up with everything that is happening on bitcointalk forum.

Lazy and there's less room for error if you're copying the binary directly off the device. I don't think it would even need to be as complex as a braille reader, as long as the punches show clearly. Funnily enough I tried to find an open source braille reading app/code to see if it could read it but I didn't have any luck.

I am not sure if this helps ( I didn't test it myself) but Liblouis looks like a open source braille translator and formatter, and last update was just few months ago:
http://liblouis.org/

[BlackHatCoiner]

If you are serious about this let me know if you have some github or social media for following progress of that project, sadly I can't keep up with everything that is happening on bitcointalk forum.

He does have a github. Follow him there.

[Ucy]

Interesting
I always thought that such backups should be as clear as possible (and possibly stored in multiple places ), just incase you forget alot of things after a long while but luckily remember you have a thing called Bitcoin, rush to dig it up but find it hard to understanding what you wrote and no one could even interpret it. I tend to consider the possibility of things changing so quickly that lot of people don't remember their past or the past is twisted (deliberately or not) that the mind becomes entangled & unable to process those info