Buff.bet unfairly closing account and confiscating 399mbtc balance

[GekkeBelg]

Hello,

I wanted to sign up at Buff.bet in August 2020 but to my surprise I saw that in their terms Germany was mentioned in the list of countries where they "do not offer their services to". This is strange cause it's not listed as a forbidden country on the license page with their regulator Curacao Gaming, as you can see here:


So I went to the Bitcointalk forum topic of Buff and asked in there why they didn't accept Germans when basically all other crypto casinos do.
I was clearly told there that they make a difference between fiat and crypto customers. With Fiat you cannot sign up as a German, but with crypto it's allowed:


Then a couple months later another Bitcointalk user also asked something about this topic, and here it was confirmed once more by Buff that with crypto any countries are allowed to register, including USA and Germany for example:


This was also confirmed on their website by the fact that German IP-addresses were not blocked and you can select Germany on the list of countries when registering with crypto. When you select fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany however does not appear on the country list. These 2 facts are shown in the following 2 screenshots:



So to me it was clear that I was allowed to register a crypto account and I went ahead. I gambled there without problems for some months, but after a couple of months, in February 2021, I had to do an extensive KYC. I had to send in all kind of documents, utility bills, passport next to my face etc and even do a video verification. I passed all of these verifications and my account was verified as you can see:


They ofcourse knew very well that I was from Germany as it was all over my documents and they approved them. So after this things went well for another couple months, until last week I suddenly had to do another KYC when my withdrawal was rejected. I was surprised because I have never had to do a KYC twice at any casino/bookmaker, but okay I went ahead and sent them all they asked for. Then, the following day I could not log in anymore and now my account is closed:


In an email I was told all my funds (399.65 mbtc) were confiscated for violating the restricted countries terms:


I think this is all very unfair. If they say they accept crypto currency accounts from Germany, I should be able to believe their word. If their website is not IP-blocked for Germany and it's listed as a country when signing up, it clearly indicates that it's allowed to sign up. Next to this their regulator does not forbid registrations from Germany. Also, a little side note is that in their terms they have the following rule listed: "Additionally, Universal Monsters series are only available in these countries: and then a list follows with countries, including Germany! So how come this game is available for German customers when they are supposed to not be even able to register? See screenshot:


And most importantly, all this time they knew very well I was from Germany as they verified my account via an extensive KYC. At no point did they let me know it was not allowed to gamble with crypto from Germany. If at any point something changed in the regulation of Germany, they should a) block German IP-addresses b) remove Germany from the list of countries at the registration process and c) send me an email or notify me otherwise that I am no longer welcome.
And ofcourse at the point they stopped accepting Germans, this is where they should pay me out my remaining balance and after that close the account. That is the only right way, and that is how basically all casinos/bookmakers act in such a situation.
They cannot just confiscate it all. I feel like I am really being robbed here. I have given Buff several days to correct this mistake. On my emails they never responded and in the forum topic I am basically being ignored.
I hope this topic wakes Buff up and they still do the right thing by letting me log in one more time and giving me the chance to withdraw my balance. It's fine that they stop accepting German customers, this is their own choice, but they cannot just confiscate the balance.
If this topic also doesn't help I will contact a lawyer in Curacao to start legal proceedings against Buff. Because I am convinced I have an extremely high chance to win this case as the fact are so crystal clear here.

This is the Buff topic in bitcointalk forum btw: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3309139.0

I created flags against the creator of the Buff topic called eGoldgg: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2816
and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=1208890
and the representative in there, called Buff88: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2815

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[LoyceV]

Flag (type 2) against Buff88 supported: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2815
I've tagged Buff88 and eGoldgg.
Flag (type 1) against eGoldgg supported: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=2817

Buff88 ignored most posts about this scam accusation in their topic, and continued to post large promotions to "make it disappear".

@GekkeBelg: Please leave negative feedback and create a Flag (from their Trust page) against Buff88 and eGoldgg. The former seems to be a Buff.bet representative, the latter has created their main topic and needs a Flag for a warning to show up in their topic. It certainly deserves a type 1 Flag, and possibly a type 3 Flag. The only doubt I have is that I'm not sure about the relations between the accounts involved.

Note that eGoldgg was online today after being offline for more than 2 years, but didn't comment on this.

I'll quote my posts from their thread:

@eGoldgg: you haven't been online in almost 2 years. As the creator of this topic, you may want to respond to GekkeBelg's post.

@Buff88: you're not doing yourself any favours by ignoring GekkeBelg and posting big promotional posts to hide his complaint.
This is what it looks like now: A player won, and you're trying to weasel out instead of paying him.
Let me guess: if a German user lost his funds, you won't return their deposits?

And now, today I requested another withdrawal and suddenly had to do another KYC. And this time after sending them all the documents, my account got closed and all funds confiscated (399mbtc). Stating this as reason:

~ as a German resident, you are in breach of our T&C’s. Your account will be permanently closed
~
all bets placed are in breach of the applicable law will be deemed void, and any deposits made to be refunded.
~
Buff.bet Customer Support team

Allow me to quote this by myself:

We do not accept customers from Germany with Fiat currencies, with crypto (we accept BTC,ETH,LTC) you can actually make an account

I'm curious: what's the relation between user eGoldgg, user Buff88 and website BUFF.bet? Is there any post or link to confirm they're officially affiliated? That's kinda important for Flag Support.

@GekkeBelg: you should create a proper Scam Accusation. I can't independently verify all your evidence, but I've seen no reason to doubt anything you've posted.
@Buff88: think very hard if scamming 399 mBTC is worth having this warning above every page of this topic:


Funny how I found this topic: Buff88 excluded GekkeBelg from his Trust list:

Trust list for: Buff88 (Trust: awaiting update) (4 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2021-08-21_Sat_06.09h)
Back to index

Buff88 Trusts these users' judgement:
-

Buff88 Distrusts these users' judgement:
1. NEW ~GekkeBelg (Trust: awaiting update) (4 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

Buff88's judgement is Trusted by:
-

~Buff88's judgement is Distrusted by:
-

Source: LoyceV's Trust list viewer.
Get your own Trust list in BBCode at loyce.club/trust.

@Buff88: That's not how you should handle a scam accusation, nor will it make it go away. Please read LoyceV's Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system.

Germany will be removed from the registration form for crypto accounts shortly.

Thanks for admitting your website wasn't up to date.

The answer to your question dated back 9 months ago, where our team said that crypto accounts might be registered from Germany, is not actually the case at this moment. We do not accept German players anymore even Crypto.

That's all fine, and you can of course change who can or can't play. But you should let them know BEFORE they win on your site. Now you're playing both sides: if someone wins, they can't withdraw, and if someone loses, you take their money too. There's a name for that: scamming.

All information about the rules applying towards the gambling activity of the German citizens and related restrictions you can find out on the official site of the German authority.

That's also a lousy excuse. You can't expect people to check external sites, if you can't even keep your own site up to date. If German regulators really changed rules for your site, you should have instantly notified the players who confirmed to reside in Germany.

Side note: gambling regulation is meant to protect citizens from scammers, but in reality regulation is often used by shady sites as an excuse to scam players.

[examplens]

if there is an online gambling ban by the German government, why are you trying to register at casinos that don’t want users from there?
I find this about banning online gambling, for example Germany Set to Ban Online Gambling as of January
But there is some changes in July 2021 Germany’s new regulations will finally allow online casino licensing in 2021

I saw for example Sportsbet.io was accused of illegally accepting users from countries with similar regulations here so, they are also decided to do not to permit accounts to be opened or used by customers resident in France, Germany etc...  https://sportsbet.io/about/terms-and-conditions
hence it is only an adaptation to the laws of certain states.

certainly, in this case, Buff.bet should not allow any possibility of registration of users from restricted zones.
I would like to see what they have to say here before support this flag.

[GekkeBelg]

if there is an online gambling ban by the German government, why are you trying to register at casinos that don’t want users from there?
I find this about banning online gambling, for example Germany Set to Ban Online Gambling as of January
But there is some changes in July 2021 Germany’s new regulations will finally allow online casino licensing in 2021

I saw for example Sportsbet.io was accused of illegally accepting users from countries with similar regulations here so, they are also decided to do not to permit accounts to be opened or used by customers resident in France, Germany etc...  https://sportsbet.io/about/terms-and-conditions
hence it is only an adaptation to the laws of certain states.

certainly, in this case, Buff.bet should not allow any possibility of registration of users from restricted zones.
I would like to see what they have to say here before support this flag.

There is no ban from the German government preventing players to sign up at gambling websites. The German players are free to sign up wherever they like.
It's the casinos/bookmakers themselves who have to decide if they accept German players. Some do, some don't. It's really kinda 70/30. Officially they need to hold a license and some do, while many also simply offer their services when they don't hold a license.
In the crypto scene most bookmakers/casinos do accept Germans. In fact the only one who does not accept them (apart from now Buff) is Sportsbet.io
All the others (FortuneJack, Stake, Betcoin, Playbetr, Nitrobetting, Nitrogen and so on) do accept Germans.
So I am not in breach of German law trying to register on bookmakers/casinos.

And ofcourse, if the bookmaker/casino does not want users from my location, then I won't register. In the case of Buff however I asked and they said I was welcome.
Btw, the first URL you posted about banning Germans is from 2007.
It's indeed true that on 1st of July 2021 some sort of a new law came into effect. It's about casinos, not bookmakers and simply means they can now apply for licenses (which they could not until 1st July, at that point there were only rules for sportsbetting and casinos were all a grey zone up until then) to legally offer casino games. If this was the trigger for Buff to stop offering their services somehow....fine....but they should have told all their German customers to withdraw their funds and after that they could close the accounts. Now they did nothing and roughly 50 days after this July 1st date suddenly confiscated all my funds.

[GekkeBelg]

I see the regular Buff topic in the Gambling subforum has been locked.....who locked it if I may ask?

[yahoo62278]

I see the regular Buff topic in the Gambling subforum has been locked.....who locked it if I may ask?

The only people who can lock the topic is the person who created a topic or in extreme cases the forum administrator(possibly the mods but i'm not sure). So my guess is buff88 locked the topic hoping this accusation will just disappear, but in reality has just made it worse on himself and the site.

[Kittygalore]

The only people who can lock the topic is the person who created a topic or in extreme cases the forum administrator(possibly the mods but i'm not sure). So my guess is buff88 locked the topic hoping this accusation will just disappear, but in reality has just made it worse on himself and the site.

Totally bad for them, they've fan the flames to get more bigger with that deed because they are implying that they're guilty and that they don't have any plans to resolve the issue they have against OP.

[LoyceV]

So my guess is buff88 locked the topic hoping this accusation will just disappear, but in reality has just made it worse on himself and the site.

It was created by eGoldgg, so they must have locked it. That explains why they came online without responding to the accusations.
So far, their response to the scam accusation has been very unprofessional.

If this topic also doesn't help I will contact a lawyer in Curacao to start legal proceedings against Buff.

If it's an official registered company, that may work, but I've never seen a similar action during my years in crypto.

I'm not sure if the Flag against eGoldgg can be Supported based on the Flag rules:

Creating or supporting a scammer flag is actively affirming a set of pretty clear fact-statements.

If a website that has an ANN-thread on Bitcointalk scammed someone, it deserves a red scammer Flag. But if the ANN-thread was created by a user who is no longer active, and the site is represented by a different user, can the thread creator still be flagged? I can argue the thread creator is innocent, but that means the thread won't get a scam warning.

I'm asking because I found what looks like a loophole:

I'm in doubt: A casino closed a user's account, and took 399 mBTC without valid reason. The casino's main ANN-thread was created by user eGoldgg, who last posted 3 years ago. The thread is "maintained" by user Buff88.
I'd like to show a scam warning above the topic, which means user eGoldgg should have a Flag. I'm in doubt if this fits the Flag-rules, but if it doesn't fit the rules, it means there's a loophole to avoid a warning on a thread.

The scammed user created 2 Flags, both type 2:

2816 Insufficient support. (Support | Oppose) GekkeBelg flagged eGoldgg (type 2, see why). Supported by GekkeBelg. Opposed by nobody.
2815 Insufficient support. (Support | Oppose) GekkeBelg flagged Buff88 (type 2, see why). Supported by LoyceV, GekkeBelg. Opposed by nobody.
(source: loyce.club)

A (yellow) Newbie warning Flag (type 1) has less strict Flag rules. GekkeBelg: will you create one on eGoldgg? It's this one:

Due to various concrete red flags, I believe that anyone dealing with this user has a high risk of losing money. (This flag will only be shown to guests/newbies.)

[GekkeBelg]

I have just created the Flag type 1 against eGoldgg: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=1208890
I wasn't sure if I had to quote the scam accusation topic or the normal gambling topic, I choose the scam accusation topic.

[sujonali1819]

Patiently I have read thread carefully. According to the Op's proof documents It's clear that buff.bet accepted the users from German (for crypto only). But later what they did it totally unfair. They can not do it and can not freeze the account. Or if the does not support German lately then there should be an open way for the users from German to Withdraw their fund.

It's totally unfair and I will go to support the flags until they solve the issue.

[GekkeBelg]

I have invited both Buff88 and eGoldgg in a private message to come defend themselves in this topic. I doubt they will have the courage to do it, but we will see.....

[GekkeBelg]

Btw, since yesterday I noticed they don't allow German IP-addresses to visit the site anymore....there is some kind of cloudflare error. But maybe it's just that they only blocked my IP.
But Germany is still in the country list when signing up with Bitcoin as of today.

[h4ns]

Btw, since yesterday I noticed they don't allow German IP-addresses to visit the site anymore....there is some kind of cloudflare error. But maybe it's just that they only blocked my IP.

No, it's not just you. I can't access the site either.

But Germany is still in the country list when signing up with Bitcoin as of today.

Yeah, unlucky if you're not the owner of the software and have to wait for some external provider to edit the code.

[examplens]

Btw, since yesterday I noticed they don't allow German IP-addresses to visit the site anymore....there is some kind of cloudflare error. But maybe it's just that they only blocked my IP.

No, it's not just you. I can't access the site either.

But Germany is still in the country list when signing up with Bitcoin as of today.

Yeah, unlucky if you're not the owner of the software and have to wait for some external provider to edit the code.

they seem to follow this thread after all. made changes and users from Germany can't register anymore. there is no more Germany as an option in drop-down menu.
now it remains to return the locked money of theirs users.



they also introduced some restrictions and IP address checking, this is what it looks like on my first visit.

[GekkeBelg]

Btw, since yesterday I noticed they don't allow German IP-addresses to visit the site anymore....there is some kind of cloudflare error. But maybe it's just that they only blocked my IP.

No, it's not just you. I can't access the site either.

But Germany is still in the country list when signing up with Bitcoin as of today.

Yeah, unlucky if you're not the owner of the software and have to wait for some external provider to edit the code.

they seem to follow this thread after all. made changes and users from Germany can't register anymore. there is no more Germany as an option in drop-down menu.
now it remains to return the locked money of theirs users.



they also introduced some restrictions and IP address checking, this is what it looks like on my first visit.

Are you sure you have selected Bitcoin (or any other crypto) as the currency in the register menu? Last time I checked, a couple hours ago, they still had Germany listed.
Only when selecting Fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany isn't shown in the list of countries. But this has always been the case, also a year ago already.

[h4ns]

made changes and users from Germany can't register anymore. there is no more Germany as an option in drop-down menu.

It's still available if you select any crypto currency in the form:

https://i.imgur.com/WOw0xal.png
https://i.imgur.com/aURKcKg.png
https://i.imgur.com/2yu2puh.png

It's pretty obvious to me that they don't have access to the code, so blocking German IPs was the only option they had. Meaning that if you are a German (currently) located in another country or just using a simple browser built-in VPN (e.g. in Opera) like I did, you can still register. It's really working, I just tried. I even filled the address data with a real German email domain and a real existing German address:

https://i.imgur.com/99KkUbH.png
https://i.imgur.com/a540feA.png

It even says "Account status: Verified:" although the chosen name, email address, DOB and phone number is completely fake 

What a shady book.

[Pmalek]

It makes no sense repeating what I already said in the corresponding ANN thread of this casino, so I will just quote myself below. I am glad OP opened a scam accusation and hopefully he will get some sort of justice. Make sure that you take your case to AskGamblers as well.

Since BUFF.bet doesn't look like they are interested in resolving this, I am removing them from my Withdrawal Fees and Withdrawal Amounts on Crypto Casinos list. No matter how this case gets resolved, they are scammers in my book.

@BUFF.bet
I remember that post I made almost a year ago where I asked you why citizens of restricted countries can freely sign up on your casino even if they shouldn't be allowed based on your ToS. You reassured me and the community that players from countries such as Germany aren't allowed to play on Buff.bet with fiat, but they can use crypto and it wouldn't be a problem because such restrictions don't apply when using cryptocurrencies.

What you are doing now is basically the opposite of that. You are preventing a player you know is from a restricted location to continue playing on your platform? You knew he was from Germany and it wasn't a problem for you in the past, but now it's a problem. I wonder if his account would have been closed if he was losing money regularly!?

Based on what I see here, I think that despite the fact that GekkeBelg is from a location whose citizens shouldn't be allowed to gamble on Buff.bet, you told everyone that it was OK as long as they played with crypto. At this point all I can do is advice GekkeBelg to open a scam accusation against you because you confiscated his money. It doesn't matter how much he played, deposited, and won in the past because you didn't have a problem with it in the past.

You said that new regulations don't allow you to have players from Germany on your site. OK, that can be true, I don't know. If it's true, you can't apply rules retroactively and count what the player withdrew from the site in the past when such regulations weren't in place back then. Speaking of new regulations, can you show some proof that your regulator recently requested that you close GekkeBelg's account or the accounts of other German players?

If a scam accusation is opened against your site, you might see your account tagged with negative trust. It's your mistake if you allowed players from restricted jurisdictions to sign up and use your services because you said it was fine to do so. Now you have to do the right thing.

I will repeat what I said earlier. If that is no longer the case, and you can't have German players on your casino, you can't just apply those rules to a period in time where those regulations weren't yet in place and you were in fact allowed to have players from Germany gambling with crypto. You are doing that currently with this player in question. The appropriate course of action would have been to inform those players who reside in restricted locations and tell them that they are no longer allowed to play on your casino for this and that reason. You didn't do that and went straight to confiscating funds.

Did you understand what LoyceV was trying to tell you? You are heading towards the direction of having Buff.bet being market a scam. Why throw away a decent reputation here for such a foolish act? The ball is in your court, do what you want with it.

[GekkeBelg]

It makes no sense repeating what I already said in the corresponding ANN thread of this casino, so I will just quote myself below. I am glad OP opened a scam accusation and hopefully he will get some sort of justice. Make sure that you take your case to AskGamblers as well.

Since BUFF.bet doesn't look like they are interested in resolving this, I am removing them from my Withdrawal Fees and Withdrawal Amounts on Crypto Casinos list. No matter how this case gets resolved, they are scammers in my book.

@BUFF.bet
I remember that post I made almost a year ago where I asked you why citizens of restricted countries can freely sign up on your casino even if they shouldn't be allowed based on your ToS. You reassured me and the community that players from countries such as Germany aren't allowed to play on Buff.bet with fiat, but they can use crypto and it wouldn't be a problem because such restrictions don't apply when using cryptocurrencies.

What you are doing now is basically the opposite of that. You are preventing a player you know is from a restricted location to continue playing on your platform? You knew he was from Germany and it wasn't a problem for you in the past, but now it's a problem. I wonder if his account would have been closed if he was losing money regularly!?

Based on what I see here, I think that despite the fact that GekkeBelg is from a location whose citizens shouldn't be allowed to gamble on Buff.bet, you told everyone that it was OK as long as they played with crypto. At this point all I can do is advice GekkeBelg to open a scam accusation against you because you confiscated his money. It doesn't matter how much he played, deposited, and won in the past because you didn't have a problem with it in the past.

You said that new regulations don't allow you to have players from Germany on your site. OK, that can be true, I don't know. If it's true, you can't apply rules retroactively and count what the player withdrew from the site in the past when such regulations weren't in place back then. Speaking of new regulations, can you show some proof that your regulator recently requested that you close GekkeBelg's account or the accounts of other German players?

If a scam accusation is opened against your site, you might see your account tagged with negative trust. It's your mistake if you allowed players from restricted jurisdictions to sign up and use your services because you said it was fine to do so. Now you have to do the right thing.

I will repeat what I said earlier. If that is no longer the case, and you can't have German players on your casino, you can't just apply those rules to a period in time where those regulations weren't yet in place and you were in fact allowed to have players from Germany gambling with crypto. You are doing that currently with this player in question. The appropriate course of action would have been to inform those players who reside in restricted locations and tell them that they are no longer allowed to play on your casino for this and that reason. You didn't do that and went straight to confiscating funds.

Did you understand what LoyceV was trying to tell you? You are heading towards the direction of having Buff.bet being market a scam. Why throw away a decent reputation here for such a foolish act? The ball is in your court, do what you want with it.

I did submit a complaint on Askgamblers. But the sad thing is they rejected it because it was "a regulatory issue" and said I had to submit my complaint to the Curacao Gaming Authority. Then I explained that it's NOT a regulatory issue since on their license Germany is not listed as a forbidden country and it was totally the own choice of Buff to throw out Germans. And after that they still wouldn't take on my complaint. Also submitted a negative review, also rejected. Looks like they are sponsored by Buff somehow....very sad that Askgamblers is sliding this way now too....

[panjul07]

Are you sure you have selected Bitcoin (or any other crypto) as the currency in the register menu? Last time I checked, a couple hours ago, they still had Germany listed.
Only when selecting Fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany isn't shown in the list of countries. But this has always been the case, also a year ago already.

Seems examplens did not set the currency to crypto, that's why he did not see Germany in the list.
I did a quick check on their Terms and Conditions page and they are restricting players from some countries but some of the restricted countries is still available in the drop down menu when I select crypto as the main currency.
Restricted countries as per their terms:

Australia, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Germany, France, Kazakhstan, Poland, Russia, Slovakia (Slovak Republic), Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States of America, S.A.R. and Bulgaria.

The countries in bold are still available in the list when I select crypto, so the same thing may happen for anyone from those countries.
If they restricts some countries, they should not have the countries in the list on registration. Is it a trap?

[GekkeBelg]

Are you sure you have selected Bitcoin (or any other crypto) as the currency in the register menu? Last time I checked, a couple hours ago, they still had Germany listed.
Only when selecting Fiat (Euro/USD etc) Germany isn't shown in the list of countries. But this has always been the case, also a year ago already.

Seems examplens did not set the currency to crypto, that's why he did not see Germany in the list.
I did a quick check on their Terms and Conditions page and they are restricting players from some countries but some of the restricted countries is still available in the drop down menu when I select crypto as the main currency.
Restricted countries as per their terms:

Australia, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Germany, France, Kazakhstan, Poland, Russia, Slovakia (Slovak Republic), Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States of America, S.A.R. and Bulgaria.

The countries in bold are still available in the list when I select crypto, so the same thing may happen for anyone from those countries.
If they restricts some countries, they should not have the countries in the list on registration. Is it a trap?

Yes, it is a trap. It gives them a freeroll on clients from those countries. If they lose, they are welcome to stay, if they win they will be thrown out with funds confiscated citing their terms.
Normally they could maybe legally still get away with that, but in my case they clearly stated in writing that they do in fact accept Germans with crypto currency and they verified my account completely a couple of months before funds got confiscated, meaning they cannot deny they knew very well I was from Germany and didn't take action before.