Buff.bet unfairly closing account and confiscating 399mbtc balance

[GekkeBelg]

We have thoroughly reviewed your case with our legal team, taking into consideration that you knowingly wagered on a site where it clearly states in the terms and conditions that German users are prohibited and you repeatedly asked in public forums how you can violate these terms and conditions is culpable. Nevertheless we are willing to take a fair approach on this matter.

The recent gambling legislation set by the Ministerium für Inneres, ländliche Räume, Integration und Gleichstellung with the Gaming Agreement 2021 came into force on July 1st, 2021 in the jurisdiction of Germany. The legislation is in full force since that date.

Following on from this, and being bound by the laws of the relevant authorities, transactions and bets from German users since that date can not be accepted and are not accepted.

After carefully checking the transaction and betting history of your betting account after June 30th, you had a balance of 408.33 mBTC at a conversion rate of €29,552.36 per bitcoin. The regulation came into force 1st of July 2021 after which all bets are voided. On July 14th you were paid the amount of 110 mBTC so that makes 298.33 mBTC (8853.82 EUR) outstanding balance to be paid at that period of time. Considering the exchange rate fluctuation, and the current BTC price, the remaining amount of your balance to be paid is 221.17 mBTC (8853.82 EUR). This balance will be paid out in accordance with our terms and conditions in 3 monthly increments to a bitcoin wallet address that you specify.

After having been ignored for a full week by their email support, they suddenly came up with this today.

It's one step in the right direction, but far from a good solution to me. First of all, I think it's still their fault that they kept accepting bets from Germans after July 1st. Especially cause it's not set and stone that all Germans were removed from all gambling websites on that date. In fact, I have not been thrown out of any gambling website. For none of my bookmakers this 1st July regulation was a reason to throw Germans out. Ofcourse every bookmaker is in their right to do so, but they have to inform me at or before that date, not 50 days after and void bets in retrospect. But surely it's not the case that I had to realize I was not allowed to bet anymore in bookmakers.
Secondly, they start counting bitcoin rates and calculating bitcoin to Euros at values of certain dates. This however is completely unfair, because I never intended to exchange bitcoins to Euros and it's not up to them to decide if I should do so. My account in Buff is in Bitcoins, not Euros. My personal plan was and is to keep my bitcoins for the long term because I believe in crypto. It's completely irrelevant how much Euros they were worth at a certain day. I'm 100% sure they would not have given me more bitcoin than I had, if the value would have dropped since June 30th.
After all, their solution would mean Im receiving just 55% of the amount I was owed....which is not acceptable to me.

Oh and btw, their first line that it's "culpable" of me that I "repeatedly" asked in forums how I could violate their terms, is a little bit over the top. First of all, I only asked one time "hey buff, why are Germans actually not allowed?" (other users asked the following questions) and this was not with the intention to violate terms, it was simply out of curiosity and thinking they maybe made a mistake listing Germany as a forbidden country. And after a swift response of them "oh you can actually make an account with crypto, go ahead" I was convinced. Surely not me actively looking how I could violate their terms.

What do you guys think?

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[LoyceV]

What do you guys think?

They're still scamming you, but they're trying to save face. That won't work on Bitcointalk.

We have thoroughly reviewed your case with our legal team, taking into consideration that you knowingly wagered on a site where it clearly states in the terms and conditions that German users are prohibited and you repeatedly asked in public forums how you can violate these terms and conditions is culpable.

That's BS. You went through their KYC, they knew exactly who and where you are.

The recent gambling legislation set by the Ministerium für Inneres, ländliche Räume, Integration und Gleichstellung with the Gaming Agreement 2021 came into force on July 1st, 2021 in the jurisdiction of Germany. The legislation is in full force since that date.

My German is rusty, so I didn't check those claims. Either way, if they wanted to follow those regulations, they should have implemented it on time.

Following on from this, and being bound by the laws of the relevant authorities, transactions and bets from German users since that date can not be accepted and are not accepted.

"Relevant authorities" sounds like mumbo jumbo. I'd expect a more accurate answer from a legal team.

After carefully checking the transaction and betting history of your betting account after June 30th, you had a balance of 408.33 mBTC at a conversion rate of €29,552.36 per bitcoin. The regulation came into force 1st of July 2021 after which all bets are voided. On July 14th you were paid the amount of 110 mBTC so that makes 298.33 mBTC (8853.82 EUR) outstanding balance to be paid at that period of time. Considering the exchange rate fluctuation, and the current BTC price, the remaining amount of your balance to be paid is 221.17 mBTC (8853.82 EUR). This balance will be paid out in accordance with our terms and conditions in 3 monthly increments to a bitcoin wallet address that you specify.

I have so many questions about this:
Why are they converting Bitcoin to euro and then back to Bitcoin? It's obvious they only use this to lower the total amount, if your Bitcoin deposits weren't instantly converted to euro, this makes absolutely no sense. They could just as well have converted it to carrots and back.

Why do they pay this in 3 monthly increments? Can't they afford to pay at once? Or is that to keep you from taking legal action against them?
And why do they think today's Bitcoin rate is even relevant? Why not the rate at the moment they're actually going to pay you the small part of your total winnings? Have they paid the first "installment" yet?

How did they get those exchange rates? Bitcoinaverage gives this:
June 30th: €29,351.46
July 1st: €28,449.77
July 14th: €27,598,94
Why do they use the same exchange rate on July 14th as on June 30th?

It's one step in the right direction, but far from a good solution to me. First of all, I think it's still their fault that they kept accepting bets from Germans after July 1st. Especially cause it's not set and stone that all Germans were removed from all gambling websites on that date. In fact, I have not been thrown out of any gambling website. For none of my bookmakers this 1st July regulation was a reason to throw Germans out. Ofcourse every bookmaker is in their right to do so, but they have to inform me at or before that date, not 50 days after and void bets in retrospect. But surely it's not the case that I had to realize I was not allowed to bet anymore in bookmakers.
Secondly, they start counting bitcoin rates and calculating bitcoin to Euros at values of certain dates. This however is completely unfair, because I never intended to exchange bitcoins to Euros and it's not up to them to decide if I should do so. My account in Buff is in Bitcoins, not Euros. My personal plan was and is to keep my bitcoins for the long term because I believe in crypto. It's completely irrelevant how much Euros they were worth at a certain day. I'm 100% sure they would not have given me more bitcoin than I had, if the value would have dropped since June 30th.
After all, their solution would mean Im receiving just 55% of the amount I was owed....which is not acceptable to me.

Oh and btw, their first line that it's "culpable" of me that I "repeatedly" asked in forums how I could violate their terms, is a little bit over the top. First of all, I only asked one time "hey buff, why are Germans actually not allowed?" (other users asked the following questions) and this was not with the intention to violate terms, it was simply out of curiosity and thinking they maybe made a mistake listing Germany as a forbidden country. And after a swift response of them "oh you can actually make an account with crypto, go ahead" I was convinced. Surely not me actively looking how I could violate their terms.

You're absolutely right on all points.

[h4ns]

The recent gambling legislation set by the Ministerium für Inneres, ländliche Räume, Integration und Gleichstellung with the Gaming Agreement 2021 came into force on July 1st, 2021 in the jurisdiction of Germany. The legislation is in full force since that date.

 

First of all, it was not the "Ministerium für Inneres..." (they probably mean the Bundesinnenministerium = Federal Ministry of the Interior) which ratified the new gambling law called "Glücksspielstaatsvertrag" but the 16 federal states of Germany. Gambling falls under the legislation of the federal states. The Federal Ministry of the Interior has no legislative competence in this regard.

Secondly, online gambling has always been illegal in Germany. There was just a grey area when it came to prosecution. German authorities tolerated especially EU-based operators from Malta and Gibraltar because the highest court of the EU, the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), chid Germany multiple times for their national gambling law reasoning that it would violate fundamental rights of the EU like the "Freedom of Establishment and Freedom to Provide Services in the European Union". So, what Germany did was just tolerating online gambling but, formally, it has NEVER been legal before July 1. In fact, sports betting and casino was a state monopoly and land based only.

In short, suggesting that online gambling suddenly became illegal in Germany on July 1, 2021 is just wrong. It has always been illegal in this country.

Regarding the Bitcoin <-> Euro thing, I can support what LoyceV said. It's so shady, it makes them even look worse. They know exactly that they "made a mistake" (aka tried to scam) and that they have to pay in order to keep face. But instead of just paying the remaining balance, they are now trying to push down the amount. And on top of that all, they are not even willing (or able?) to pay the balance at once.

The whole story throws such a bad light on Buff.bet and their parent company XB Systems AG.

[savetheFORUM]

We have thoroughly reviewed your case with our legal team, taking into consideration that you knowingly wagered on a site where it clearly states in the terms and conditions that German users are prohibited and you repeatedly asked in public forums how you can violate these terms and conditions is culpable. Nevertheless we are willing to take a fair approach on this matter.

Sounds like they are doing a favor by being honest in judgement

If German players were not allowed, why was he even allowed to register at the casino?

[tokyohd]

Any update ? Did they Reply to you ?

[GekkeBelg]

Any update ? Did they Reply to you ?

Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month. I had offered this myself cause I don't care too much about having to wait a little longer, as long as I know for sure I will get my full balance. And since I don't see Buff going bankrupt in the next 8 months (they are growing and their parent company is entering the Nasdaq) I am convinced I will receive the full balance eventually.
Tomorrow, the 3rd of September, they will pay the first installment to a BTC address of my choosing. I will close this topic tomorrow and remove the ongoing flags and trust ratings against users Buf88 and eGoldgg after I have received these funds. I will then also remove all posts regarding this case from the normal Buff topic and also won't post in that topic anymore at all, unless of course Buff fail to meet their monthly installment payments at some point.

Thank you all for your support in this case. I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just made a very bad judgement call but corrected it now. Also another reminder that you should stand up for yourself and fight for your right and in many cases justice will come.

[h4ns]

Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month.

What do you mean they pay you 2000 Euro per month?

The instalment they pay you varies on the current BTC price?

So if BTC is skyrocketing, you will lose value?

I mean, if that was your suggestion, it's alright. Maybe you planned to sell your BTC anyway, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Anyways, congrats!

I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just (...)

Wrong. They are thieves who got caught and then being rueful

[LoyceV]

Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month. I had offered this myself cause I don't care too much about having to wait a little longer, as long as I know for sure I will get my full balance. And since I don't see Buff going bankrupt in the next 8 months (they are growing and their parent company is entering the Nasdaq) I am convinced I will receive the full balance eventually.

Why can this Nasdaq company not afford to pay 399.65 mBTC at once? And why is it in euros again, does that mean the amount you'll receive in Bitcoin can still go up or down?

I will close this topic tomorrow and remove the ongoing flags and trust ratings against users Buf88 and eGoldgg after I have received these funds.

Might I suggest to leave your Flags for now? The Flag system only requires you to withdraw Support for your Flag after "make the victims of this act roughly whole", which would be 8 months from now. I'd appreciate if you post monthly updates on how they're doing, and it looks like I'll keep Supporting the Flags for the coming 8 months.

I will then also remove all posts regarding this case from the normal Buff topic and also won't post in that topic anymore at all, unless of course Buff fail to meet their monthly installment payments at some point.

Removing the posts from their topic won't matter, there are enough quotes in there, and the Trust ratings are clearly visible.

I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just (...)

Wrong. They are thieves who got caught and then being rueful

Exactly. It's the big warning Flags that made them change their mind. Note that they haven't been online on Bitcointalk since they got Flagged.
Now that I think about it: wasn't it against regulations to pay Germans? Lol! Such flexible regulations!

[GekkeBelg]

Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month.

What do you mean they pay you 2000 Euro per month?

The instalment they pay you varies on the current BTC price?

So if BTC is skyrocketing, you will lose value?

I mean, if that was your suggestion, it's alright. Maybe you planned to sell your BTC anyway, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Anyways, congrats!

I am happy to say that Buff afterall are not thieves, they just (...)

Wrong. They are thieves who got caught and then being rueful

They always had a 3000 euro equivalent monthly limit, now I suggested they can make it 2000 if they want.
It does not mean I will lose value. My BTC balance remains the same. Just every month they calculate at the moment of payout what 2000 euro is worth in bitcoins and pay me that.
I will still receive the full 399.65mbtc no matter what happens. If BTC skyrockets it will just take longer for me to receive that full amount, and if Bitcoin price falls deep it will take a shorter time for me to receive the full amount.

And no, you're wrong about the sell-assumtion. I'm not planning to sell any of my BTC in the coming years at all. And exactly this solution suits that need. I keep my balance in BTC and receive a small part of it each month. If BTC price rises I still take full profit of it just as much as I would had i just kep the BTC in my own wallet all this time.

[LoyceV]

I will still receive the full 399.65mbtc no matter what happens. If BTC skyrockets it will just take longer for me to receive that full amount, and if Bitcoin price falls deep it will take a shorter time for me to receive the full amount.

You seem to have a lot of confidence in the scammers who took your money.

[GekkeBelg]

Yes, after some emails back and forth it was today that I heard they agree to my offered solution: they pay me the full 399.65mbtc outstanding balance, but in increments of 2000 euro per month. I had offered this myself cause I don't care too much about having to wait a little longer, as long as I know for sure I will get my full balance. And since I don't see Buff going bankrupt in the next 8 months (they are growing and their parent company is entering the Nasdaq) I am convinced I will receive the full balance eventually.

Why can't this Nasdaq company not afford to pay 399.65 mBTC at once? And why is it in euros again, does that mean the amount you'll receive in Bitcoin can still go up or down?

I will close this topic tomorrow and remove the ongoing flags and trust ratings against users Buf88 and eGoldgg after I have received these funds.

Might I suggest to leave your Flags for now? The Flag system only requires you to withdraw Support for your Flag after "make the victims of this act roughly whole", which would be 8 months from now. I'd appreciate if you post monthly updates on how they're doing, and it looks like I'll keep Supporting the Flags for the coming 8 months.

I will then also remove all posts regarding this case from the normal Buff topic and also won't post in that topic anymore at all, unless of course Buff fail to meet their monthly installment payments at some point.

Removing the posts from their topic won't matter, there are enough quotes in there, and the Trust ratings are clearly visible.

They already had a 3000 euro monthly payout limit listed in their terms anyway so this isn't much lower.
And no, I will receive 399.65mbtc for sure no matter what happens with the price. The only relevance for the BTC-Euro rate is the amount of mbtc I will receive each month. Does BTC value rise a lot, then the monthly mbtc amount I receive will be smaller but the total will still be 399.65mtbc in the end. It will just take longer.

No, I already promised them I would remove the flags so I better stick to my promises. However ofcourse if they fail to mee the monthly payments at some point I will create a new flag. As long as you don't hear from me you can be sure they are sticking to their monthly payment plan.

[GekkeBelg]

I will still receive the full 399.65mbtc no matter what happens. If BTC skyrockets it will just take longer for me to receive that full amount, and if Bitcoin price falls deep it will take a shorter time for me to receive the full amount.

You seem to have a lot of confidence in the scammers who took your money.

Let's not forget they always paid me nicely for a full year. The only way I will not receive the funds is if they go bankrupt. They will not want me to take legal action. They just want to resume service as normal as possible, also on Bitcointalk, and they have a lot of incentive to just pay me out according to the plan.
The company behind Buff is a solid company with good people.

[LoyceV]

No, I already promised them I would remove the flags so I better stick to my promises.

Well, you can't It literally said so when you created the Flags: "Flags cannot be deleted!".
You can withdraw your Support, but that doesn't mean the Flag becomes inactive.
You may want to read up on Trust flags:

Creating or supporting a scammer flag is actively affirming a set of pretty clear fact-statements.

[GekkeBelg]

No, I already promised them I would remove the flags so I better stick to my promises.

Well, you can't It literally said so when you created the Flags: "Flags cannot be deleted!".
You can withdraw your Support, but that doesn't mean the Flag becomes inactive.
You may want to read up on Trust flags:

Creating or supporting a scammer flag is actively affirming a set of pretty clear fact-statements.

Okay well then I will just withdraw my support and add a text to it that it has been resolved or something.

[h4ns]

The company behind Buff is a solid company with good people.

Come on, no need to grovel just because they do not scam you in the end. At least for their attempt, we have to blame them!

I've been sports betting half of my life and I can tell you one thing for sure: There are no good people in this business.

[GekkeBelg]

Okay they paid me the first part of my balance today, as promised (48mbtc). I will now close this topic, thanks.