How many non-scams exist in Investor-based games?

[actmyname]

Board.If moderators can distinguish between regular gambling threads and investor-based game threads, then we should be able to report away those threads... right?

Unless there are these highly active investor-based games that need to be protected from moderator discretion, which also don't belong in Securities, Services, etc.
It is such a pity that we do not have the administrative capabilities to close the board: the spillover of active threads in that section into Gambling will be too much for staff.
I think the success and efficiency of this board means that we can roll out the "Scams and Fraud" section too, so that we can redirect all scammer activity there.



Just curious.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If moderators can distinguish between regular gambling threads and investor-based game threads, then we should be able to report away those threads... right?

And how will you distinguish the ones that're frauds? If the mods didn't decide to delete some of them, it's probably because the header seems enough.

Warning: You are in the Gambling section. You are likely to eventually lose any money that you gamble/"invest". Additionally, moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Do not gamble more than you can afford to lose.

I haven't tried reporting something that makes a splash, but I guess even if I did, it wouldn't be accurate due to this header.

I think the success and efficiency of this board means that we can roll out the "Scams and Fraud" section too, so that we can redirect all scammer activity there.

Good point.

The board is consisted of newbies who try to make us rich, so that's the title I'd give to Investor-based games. In the unofficial list, it is put like this:

"Games where the main factor is whether or not new "investors" join the game. Also any Bitcoin-denominated investment product with an APY far above the reasonable market rate. " That includes ponzis, HYIP and other "invest and get tons of cash tomorrow" type sites.

So I'd say bitcointalk is asking for it!

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I think the success and efficiency of this board means that we can roll out the "Scams and Fraud" section too, so that we can redirect all scammer activity there.

On a related note, I was thinking yesterday that Theymos might want to consider a "Retards" section where people who have absolutely no clue what they're writing can post in, and I thought it would be best as a subsection of Beginners & Help.  Kind of like for members who aren't ready to post in B&H can begin.  Like this one.

Now back on topic.  This forum doesn't moderate scams (and you know that, actmyname), therefore Investor Based Games exists.  Theymos won't create new sections for things that are actually relevant or add new features that would help people not have any excuse for plagiarism and so on, yet IBG exists.  Makes sense, dudn't it? 

Now back to reality.  IBG is an idiotic section that should be nuked until there's nothing left but smoke wafting from the scorched earth where it used to exist.  I've always thought that, and if you look far back enough in my post history you'd probably find one or two posts where I said much the same.  I've got the gambling sections on ignore, so I wasn't aware that there was a retard overflow into them, but it doesn't surprise me.  There's been a lot of that lately.

[RickDeckard]

Board.If moderators can distinguish between regular gambling threads and investor-based game threads, then we should be able to report away those threads... right?

I fully agree with you, I think that threads that gather such any thread, whenever it may be, has the title "investor based game" is just a gateaway to runaway deals and bad journeys to whoever decides to jump on that ship. Thing is they play with the most basic desire of the majority of users that (sadly) register in here - get "rich" (one could debate what rich means in this context) quick schemes. And, for the same reason that I can't understand why are threads where users sell other bitcointalk accounts are allowed, I also don't understand fully why do we even allow for such thread to co-exist in the mist of such good threads (Bitcoin Development for example). I do, however, have some clues about the reason for it to exist:

• As you've said it, I think the thread is made to "filter out" the posts that otherwise would fall into other categories - I'm not even talking about Gambling, for the content that is posted there I'm sure that it would get split into many threads of the forum due to a bad judgment on OP's. Threads such as Securities, Services, Gambling would see an influx of threads that shouldn't be there
• With that thread/filter in place, perhaps the mods wanted users to be warned about "high risk" activities and that they shouldn't treat them with a light attitude. The description of the thread "slightly" touches this fact:
  

  Games where the main factor is whether or not new "investors" join the game. Also any Bitcoin-denominated investment product with an APY far above the reasonable market rate. i

  Thing is, I don't really believe this is seen as a "Warning". This basically entices users who don't have fear of "high risk" methods because they're willing to take that risk with the "illusion" that they perhaps may get a "bang for their buck" in the near future. If we take a look from the beginning of the year until 1st of September, about 346 posts were generated which translates roughly in +- 1,42 (346/243 days) messages created ever since the start of the year. I might be making a bad judgment using the website, so a double check by anyone would be good .

The solution? Perhaps we should make a sticky stating the dangers of this kind of "route" within the thread besides the main warning we give out? Perhaps with some examples of what happened in the past? Then again, if we build such a strong case against advising people into participating in this thread, why shouldn't we let it exist in the first place, right?

Now back to reality.  IBG is an idiotic section that should be nuked until there's nothing left but smoke wafting from the scorched earth where it used to exist.  I've always thought that, and if you look far back enough in my post history you'd probably find one or two posts where I said much the same.  I've got the gambling sections on ignore, so I wasn't aware that there was a retard overflow into them, but it doesn't surprise me.  There's been a lot of that lately.

Assuming that IBG won't get deleted (I believe it won't be) how about the forum would "close" it until a member reaches, for example, Sr. Member? That would block anyone from posting there and people who eventually got up to that rank for sure will be fully aware of the risks that the thread encompasses so they'll likely also won't take part on it. I don't know if the forum allows such feature though ...

[Coyster]

And, for the same reason that I can't understand why are threads where users sell other bitcointalk accounts are allowed, I also don't understand fully why do we even allow for such thread to co-exist in the mist of such good threads...

Forum moderators do not trash threads of users 'advertising' their bitcointalk account for sale cause it actually is not against the forum rules, but is an unethical act that majority of the forum discourages, thus account sellers more often than not would get a negative feedback, but their account would neither be banned, nor the thread thrashed. See the excerpt below:

18. Having multiple accounts and account sales are allowed, but account sales are discouraged.

Assuming that IBG won't get deleted (I believe it won't be) how about the forum would "close" it until a member reaches, for example, Sr. Member? That would block anyone from posting there and people who eventually got up to that rank for sure will be fully aware of the risks that the thread encompasses so they'll likely also won't take part on it. I don't know if the forum allows such feature though ...

The forum did have such a feature as this is somewhat synonymous to the newbie-jail of the past, thus I don't think this sort of feature would be implemented on the forum as Theymos has stated previously that he would prolly not consider limiting users participation on the forum especially based on ranks. See the excerpt below:

Limiting newbie participation is very harmful for a community. Newbie jail will never return: I consider the newbie-jail period to have been extremely damaging to the forum.

[suchmoon]

The solution? Perhaps we should make a sticky stating the dangers of this kind of "route" within the thread besides the main warning we give out? Perhaps with some examples of what happened in the past?

There is already a warning at the top of each thread. If you make it longer and more elaborate, users will be less likely to read it.



In addition to that, a yellow type 1 flag can be added quite easily if you can explain why the specific thread is "high risk".

Then again, if we build such a strong case against advising people into participating in this thread, why shouldn't we let it exist in the first place, right?

I have a strong case against lying sockpuppets. That doesn't mean I should be nuking them on sight.

IBG has warnings and it's a confined little corner of Bitcointalk... probably the least of our problems.

[NeuroticFish]

If moderators can distinguish between regular gambling threads and investor-based game threads, then we should be able to report away those threads... right?

That board is imho just a container/containment for the spam with scams. Anybody paying attention to that.. deserves his fate.
Wasn't it also disabled by default?

Reporting would just give much more work to admins, and as said, the warning is there.

[actmyname]

That board is imho just a container/containment for the spam with scams. Anybody paying attention to that.. deserves his fate.

This is a common explanation and yet I wonder why we don't have other scam sections since we're not moderating those either.

It's a pitiful excuse, really. As if it prevents any scams from developing in the regular Gambling boards, and as if it actually redirects spam/scams to that board. It's as if you had a board of 99.9% autobuy scam links and you said, "look at all the spam we're containing!"

IBG has warnings and it's a confined little corner of Bitcointalk... probably the least of our problems.

Imagine that your body is so cancerous that when you discover older tumors, they are of little importance due to how absolutely devastated the rest of your body is.If it is so important to protect threads from those moderating scoundrels, who have so little competence to distinguish between scams and legitimate projects, that we need a board dedicated for (almost certain) ponzi projects, then where are these threads that deserve protecting? Where are these threads that hold projects of such magnitude and complexity that we are unable to determine whether they are legitimate or frauds?

How many non-scams exist in Investor-based games?

[BlackHatCoiner]

How many non-scams exist in Investor-based games?

Actually, any investor-based game can be considered a ponzi, which is a scam, because:

• There are promised returns from the creators.
• The investments are unregistered by unlicensed sellers.
• There's no legitimate activity which will be the main source of profit for the investors.

The forum itself allows you to create pyramids; it just renamed it to investor-based games.

[NeuroticFish]

That board is imho just a container/containment for the spam with scams. Anybody paying attention to that.. deserves his fate.

This is a common explanation and yet I wonder why we don't have other scam sections since we're not moderating those either.

It's a pitiful excuse, really.

Have you been around before that board was created? Do you remember?
I'll tell you how I remember it: a lot of Ponzis were advertised literally everywhere on the forum. All had to be reported and moved.. somewhere, not very clear where. This was the best solution that was found.
If you fight with armies over armies of 1-post newbies, it's just wasted energy, especially as they have started advertising themselves as investor games, instead of businesses offering high return (which would be illegal, reported and removed <-- maybe this is the bit you need?).

[actmyname]

a lot of Ponzis were advertised literally everywhere on the forum. All had to be reported and moved.. somewhere

Unfortunately, if we look at the board activity, I see threads towards the bottom with last posts from 8 months ago.

I'm not so sure that there's this huge ponzi thread problem, but by all means: move your problems elsewhere.
I'm just waiting for the "Highly Likely Scams and Frauds" board. Y'know, cause then we can move even more threads in there, and stick the investor-based games board in as a child.

If you fight with armies over armies of 1-post newbies, it's just wasted energy, especially as they have started advertising themselves as investor games, instead of businesses offering high return (which would be illegal, reported and removed <-- maybe this is the bit you need?).

If one-post newbies are getting reported anyway (required to move the thread), what is the difference between that and post deletion?
Do ponzi threads lie just under the threshold of absolute thread deletion apropos to moderation?
If one-post newbies thread-spammed other forms of scams, what would it take for those threads to be deleted, if at all?

And what differentiates them from the undeleted ponzi threads?You're taking the same number of actions (or more, by moving threads) as before and yet the difference is that you're keeping the ponzi alive.


Of course, it would be great if we had a welcome message directing new users to the "official" rule thread.

[NeuroticFish]

You're taking the same number of actions (or more, by moving threads) as before and yet the difference is that you're keeping the ponzi alive.

The difference is that if it's contained and not deleted, there's a good chance it won't be re-created, giving a reporter and a mod some more work to do. Again and again.


PS. I don't want to defend the current state. It works for me and most by ignoring the board, but it's clearly far from perfect. I also think that if a better viable solution is proposed, it will be adopted.

[actmyname]

The difference is that if it's contained and not deleted, there's a good chance it won't be re-created, giving a reporter and a mod some more work to do. Again and again.

I never liked this principle. Too much work for the mods, so let's just sweep it under the carpet or move it elsewhere and hope no one gets hurt. How well is the Serious discussion board going, I wonder? That's the reverse of investor-based games: try to redirect quality posts there...

One aspect is that the underlying assumption expects the ponzi promoter to repeatedly post until publish their thread (and then cease), but why would anyone ever stop there? Follow-up advertisement posts/threads from alt accounts (most likely how the thread was initially created) will simply grant the investor-based thread more opportunity to spread, and the board hosts their platform. The incentive is much greater when you have a lasting thread - subsequent advertisements carry more impact.

I don't see any reason why someone wouldn't automate ponzi scams on the forum if they took a look at the scenario. Low volume board, so they can establish their personal ponzi threads; minimal/slow moderation forum-wide, so your advertisements will always be posted; no new user requirements, so you can set up the massive account farm you want.