AirGapped Hardware Wallets

[Charles-Tim]

While I do love QR codes not only for security / air-gap, but also for their convenience (work cross-platform, no need to carry a cable); just adding QR code communication indeed doesn't make a wallet airgapped, in my opinion. Still nice to have, but not air-gapped.
So, I agree with o_e_l_e_o here.

If using QR code, it is airgapped, but if using USB connection, it should not be regarded as airgapped is what o_e_l_e_o is referring to, I think. Is Jade having a means to use QR code? Is there other means in a way there is no way you will not have to plugging the USB stick for the continuing usage of the Jade hardware wallet with Blockstream Green? If the hardware wallet is USB stick dependent at some point, that means it is not an airgapped hardware wallet.

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[o_e_l_e_o]

If using QR code, it is airgapped, but if using USB connection, it should not be regarded as airgapped is what o_e_l_e_o is referring to, I think.

Not exactly. It seems that to set up Jade you must connect it via USB to your computer. Since the vast majority of people who do this will connect it to a regular computer with an internet connection, then that is no longer air-gapped. It doesn't matter if you then go on to only use QR codes in the future, as an airgap should be either permanent or not at all.

Note that I'm not saying that it isn't secure, just that it isn't airgapped. Ledger and Trezor devices aren't airgapped either, although it is possible to use them in an airgapped manner if you only connect them to an airgapped computer. But if you connect your hardware wallet to a computer with an internet connection at any point, then it ceases to be an airgapped wallet.

[lyw123]

AirGapped devices by definition are never directly connected to internet or to any other devices that are connected to the internet.
However, most devices including computers and hardware wallets still have USB connections and that is the easiest way to breach airgapped machine, but not the only one.
Airgap malware exist today that are using acoustic or other type of signaling like light, magnetic, thermal or radio frequency, so we know that AirGapped devices are not providing perfect protection.

Dear Sir, I have a few questions. (1) Airgapped wallets that rely solely on QR code communication appear to be very secure. However, related hardware wallets, such as Keystone, have low sales. Why? (2) The risk associated with airgapped wallets seems to be primarily supply chain attacks. When newbies receive a new airgapped wallet, they may not even think about immediately updating the firmware. If anti-tampering measures are compromised and the supply chain is attacked, that can be dangerous. Especially considering the small sales volume of current airgapped wallets, the risk is likely significant.

[satscraper]

Airgapped wallets that rely solely on QR code communication appear to be very secure. .

Yeah,  QR-code-based-communication is more secure, bu t it is also vulnerable and may result in the loss of fund in the case when relevant HW is paired with wallet on compromised computer that holds the malware code capable to change the receiving address in transaction that is granted for signing  via jeopardized QR code .  

One should always check what he is signing even with air-gapped wallet paired exclusively via QR over optical channel.

[lyw123]

[/quote]

Yeah,  QR-code-based-communication is more secure, bu t it is also vulnerable and may result in the loss of fund in the case when relevant HW is paired with wallet on compromised computer that holds the malware code capable to change the receiving address in transaction that is granted for signing  via jeopardized QR code .  

One should always check what he is signing even with air-gapped wallet paired exclusively via QR over optical channel.
[/quote]

I have 2 safepal s1. After read a post by dkbit98, I do not dare to use them, again. Safepal is closed source, and others are open source, like keystone. However their sales are very low. I am concerned about the lack of supervision.

[Charles-Tim]

Yeah,  QR-code-based-communication is more secure, bu t it is also vulnerable and may result in the loss of fund in the case when relevant HW is paired with wallet on compromised computer that holds the malware code capable to change the receiving address in transaction that is granted for signing  via jeopardized QR code . 

One should always check what he is signing even with air-gapped wallet paired exclusively via QR over optical channel.

You mean that the Qr code can be compromised by clipboard malware? Clipboard malware works in a way that you will copy a bitcoin address, the address would be replaced by a hackers address on the clipboard, so that the hacker's address will be the one that will be pasted. If you make use of QR code, you do not copy anything to clipboard at all and no address will be replaced by the clipboard malware. Although, it is good to check and recheck what you paste, even from QR code.

[satscraper]

Yeah,  QR-code-based-communication is more secure, bu t it is also vulnerable and may result in the loss of fund in the case when relevant HW is paired with wallet on compromised computer that holds the malware code capable to change the receiving address in transaction that is granted for signing  via jeopardized QR code . 

One should always check what he is signing even with air-gapped wallet paired exclusively via QR over optical channel.

You mean that the Qr code can be compromised by clipboard malware? Clipboard malware works in a way that you will copy a bitcoin address, the address would be replaced by a hackers address on the clipboard, so that the hacker's address will be the one that will be pasted. If you make use of QR code, you do not copy anything to clipboard at all and no address will be replaced by the clipboard malware. Although, it is good to check and recheck what you paste, even from QR code.

Nope. I was talking about different kind of malware that has capability to compromise QR code that feeds HW with data over optical channel. Clipboard malware  doesn't take any action in this. And unfortunately for user he has no prospect to learn whether QR compromised or not, looking at its patterns  itself.

[dkbit98]

Dear Sir, I have a few questions. (1) Airgapped wallets that rely solely on QR code communication appear to be very secure. However, related hardware wallets, such as Keystone, have low sales. Why?

Who told you that Keystone have low sales?  They are currently sold out everything and you can only pre-order from their website.
QR is not used only by Keystone, but by many other airgapped devices like Jade, Passport, etc.

I have 2 safepal s1. After read a post by dkbit98, I do not dare to use them, again. Safepal is closed source, and others are open source, like keystone. However their sales are very low. I am concerned about the lack of supervision.

Do what you want with your devices.
dkbit98 is nobody, and he didn't command anyone what to do in their life.
btw Safepal released new model X1 that should have open source firmware, but I would hold on until I see some reviews for that device.

[lyw123]

Who told you that Keystone have low sales?  They are currently sold out everything and you can only pre-order from their website.
QR is not used only by Keystone, but by many other airgapped devices like Jade, Passport, etc.

I have reviewed the official website introduction of Keystone, and it looks good. I have already placed an order for a Keystone 3 Pro, priced at $103.2, no shipping free. It seems like there are no other options available in terms of open-source hardware wallets that support altcoins and QR codes. Jade and Passport do not support altcoins.  All the hardware wallets are showed here. https://thebitcoinhole.com/

[taufik123]

-snip-
btw Safepal released new model X1 that should have open source firmware, but I would hold on until I see some reviews for that device.

and eventually, Safepal moved to Open-Source to prove that Safepal is committed to transparency and innovation.

In addition to announcing it as Open-Source, Safepal also changed the overall design and shape.
Using the Monochrome LCD type, even though the Safepal S1 already uses a full-color LCD (I prefer full-color).
and the use of Monochrome LCD is also based on low power consumption and uses a battery capacity of 128mAh.

Does not support Air-Grapped, only uses Bluetooth 5.0 High Speed connection method.

[Charles-Tim]

and eventually, Safepal moved to Open-Source to prove that Safepal is committed to transparency and innovation.

In addition to announcing it as Open-Source, Safepal also changed the overall design and shape.
Using the Monochrome LCD type, even though the Safepal S1 already uses a full-color LCD (I prefer full-color).
and the use of Monochrome LCD is also based on low power consumption and uses a battery capacity of 128mAh.

Does not support Air-Grapped, only uses Bluetooth 5.0 High Speed connection method.

That means you have not read this topic that dkbit98 created a week and some days ago: NEW SafePal X1 hardware wallet

We do not know if it is truly or completely open source yet.

It is not making use of QR code which is most recommended way of signing unsigned transaction, but making use of Bluetooth which is not safe as QR code. QR code is still the safest way to sign unsigned transaction.

The wallet can not be connected with wallets like Electrum.

[taufik123]

That means you have not read this topic that dkbit98 created a week and some days ago: NEW SafePal X1 hardware wallet

We do not know if it is truly or completely open source yet.

It is not making use of QR code which is most recommended way of signing unsigned transaction, but making use of Bluetooth which is not safe as QR code. QR code is still the safest way to sign unsigned transaction.

The wallet can not be connected with wallets like Electrum.

I missed that post, thanks for letting me know.

yups Open-Source is not completely, this is still untested and there is still no complete review for the use of Safepal X1.

I don't know why they have to sacrifice the QR code camera which is more secure and completely replace it with Bluetooth which is usually easier to hack even though it uses version 5.0, there will definitely be loopholes in the future.

and does not support third-party wallets, they only use their own Safepal wallet developed as a Browser Extension like Metamask.

[tread93]

It almost seems like even more of a risk because of the malware that can hack in through the USB connectivity. There are so many different kinds of hardware / software/ airgapped wallets but almost all of them have some sort of security flaw it seems and that the only way to truly have the most secure form of storing your bitcoin is to run bitcoin node yourself. Hopefully this will change with time and there will be more secure ways of storing your coins without having the fear of losing them via a hack.

[Meuserna]

It almost seems like even more of a risk because of the malware that can hack in through the USB connectivity. There are so many different kinds of hardware / software/ airgapped wallets but almost all of them have some sort of security flaw it seems and that the only way to truly have the most secure form of storing your bitcoin is to run bitcoin node yourself. Hopefully this will change with time and there will be more secure ways of storing your coins without having the fear of losing them via a hack.

Some airgapped wallets don't even use USB.  I'm a big fan of Krux, which runs on a Maix Amigo.  The Amigo is a device with a 3.5 inch touchscreen and a camera.  No bluetooth, no wifi.  Once you load Krux software onto the device you never need the usb port again for anything but power, so you can plug it into an electric outlet instead of a desktop.  And you only need to plug it in to charge the battery.

So, once the software is installed, you never need to connect a Krux device to anything.  It's fully airgapped.  And the large screen makes it easy to see full addresses and see exactly what you're confirming every step of the way.

I posted a full review of Krux here.

I haven't used SeedSigner, but I assume it works the same way, except for the large touchscreen which Krux has if running on a Maix Amigo (I mention this because you can also run Krux on a M5StickV, which is roughly the same size as a Blockstream Jade).

[xrahitel]

Any one using Safepal X1.
I am still confused to choose right wallet.

[Charles-Tim]

Any one using Safepal X1.
I am still confused to choose right wallet.

It is one of the hardware wallets that I can not recommend anyone to use because it is a close source wallet and because you can not be able to connect the wallet to other wallets like Electrum.

You can see lists of hardware wallets here: https://thebitcoinhole.com/

Choose the one that you think is better for you. Let it be open source and in a way you can use it with other software wallet.

For bitcoin-only wallet, I will recommend Passport.
For multicoins, go for Trezor. Not the new model with close source secure element. Also avoid Trezor coinjoin.

[dkbit98]

Any one using Safepal X1.
I am still confused to choose right wallet.

I didn't see a single good review for Safepl X1 yet, so I am guessing it's not very popular, maybe due to fact that older version S1 was insecure closed source peace of shit with stolen modified code.
I wouldn't waste money for Safepal when new Trezor Safe 3 has similar price, and there are several other open source alternatives that are better.

[Charles-Tim]

Can you recomend what you are using.
is Ngrave is good?
is Tangem is good?
is Keystone 3 Pro good?

I am not using an hardware wallet for now. If I should recommend what I am using, but which is bitcoin-only, it is multisig wallet which I have been able to setup on my three devices.

I can also recommend wallet on an airgapped device. Example is https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/coldstorage.html

Keystone 3 Pro is a good hardware wallet. I like the fact that it is airgapped, able to make use of QR code and you can use it with software wallet like Electrum.

[satscraper]

I can also recommend wallet on an airgapped device. Example is https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/coldstorage.html

Airgapped machine is a good opt if you are sitting all the time at your desk in you home but it is not optimal in emergency cases which are not rear things in the current world. If you found themselves in such situation then, I think,  the having in the emergency bag the  lightweight and compact airgapped hardware wallet   instead of a bulky and heavy airgapped machine would be preferable for you.

[Pmalek]

For bitcoin-only wallet, I will recommend Passport.
For multicoins, go for Trezor. Not the new model with close source secure element. Also avoid Trezor coinjoin.

Judging by the type of hardware wallet xrahitel is considering, I believe he is on the hunt for something cheaper. And you are right, in that price range he is down to the Trezor One, Trezor Safe 3, or the Ledger Nano S Plus, which now has a 30% discount.

I would not recommend the Ledger though. There is no way of knowing what is the next self-destructive act that we will see from this company. 
I have a Trezor One, and unless Trezor intends to remove support for this device soon, I wouldn't have issues recommending it.

Regarding the secure elements. They have always been a black-box chip. It was never trustless, regardless if the HW was open or closed-source. The only thing that has changed now after Ledger's revelations is that we know that secure elements allow for remote sending of secrets.