Are we now allowing obviously false information to be posted as truth?

[philipma1957]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363378.msg58066829#msg58066829

I think this thread is an example of yelling fire in a crowded movie theater. Not proper free speech.

I can not find the ruling on SCOTUS website.

I also think this type of posting could cause bitcointalk grief since it is a blatant falsehood present as truth.
It is inflammatory and justifies killing since vaxxed people are no longer human.

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[jackg]

I'd hope people analyse the P&S board as essentially a meme/parody by this point - it would not be something I'd live by. (a bunch were moaning people couldn't change gender and then couldn't define what gender was).

Also if badecker in reality is the same as their persona online, they likely got the vaccine...

[suchmoon]

I also think this type of posting could cause bitcointalk grief since it is a blatant falsehood present as truth.
It is inflammatory and justifies killing since vaxxed people are no longer human.

This isn't even the worst example. There is that Bootlicker or whatever the name is who openly promotes terrorism - mass killings of certain groups of people (and their families) that he dislikes.

This should (at the very least) fall under low value rule since it's not about "politics" or "society" anymore, it's just about someone's mental issues. But I'm not holding my breath.

[nutildah]

Its inflammatory garbage and makes Bitcoiners collectively look like morons to outsiders who aren't aware of the libertarian "freak flag fly" bent to how this place is run.

This thread is more a testament to BADecker's masterful trolling skills that he could evoke this kind of response from a post. His posts are stupid, but at least they are creative enough to bait the unsuspecting.

I have him on ignore, so its not a problem for me. It works.

[Poker Player]

But has anyone reported the thread? I imagine that the moderators are reluctant to delete certain threads on the P&S board on the one hand out of respect for freedom of speech and on the other hand so as not to be accused of political censorship, as happened with the Spartacus letter.

That thread is pure garbage and should be deleted. I had already read the part about vaccinated people not being human beings when I was still on the P&S board. I think it was Arielbit or another member who is retarded who I put on ignore for insulting. That part is already in itself untrue but I can understand letting that opinion be expressed if it is argued. But the Supreme Court ruling part is obviously false and makes the whole thread garbage that should be deleted.

I'm going to report the post and see.

[suchmoon]

I'm going to report the post and see.

Let us know how that goes. I've reported some of BADecker's far more shitty posts without success so I'm not wasting my time on this. He seems to have solid immunity (no pun intended) here.

[krishnaverma]

I'm going to report the post and see.

Let us know how that goes. I've reported some of BADecker's far more shitty posts without success so I'm not wasting my time on this. He seems to have solid immunity (no pun intended) here.

It may take some time to be checked by the mod and then proper action to be taken. There must be a lot of pending reports as this is a very busy forum.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I also think this type of posting could cause bitcointalk grief since it is a blatant falsehood present as truth.
It is inflammatory and justifies killing since vaxxed people are no longer human.

I don't think the forum has anything to worry about, and hopefully if any government agency started giving Theymos any grief about it, he'd tell them to fuck off.  We do still live in a country that allows free speech, you know.  Youtube might have caved in and started banning accounts that take an anti-vaccine stance, but they're in bed with everyone from their advertisers to the government.  Bitcointalk is not.

You might not like what BADecker posted, but that's the whole point of free speech (which Theymos believes in, if I'm not mistaken).  The only speech that needs to be protected from censorship is the type that people don't like.

I'd hope people analyse the P&S board as essentially a meme/parody by this point

I don't know why people even post there.  This is a bitcoin forum first and foremost, and there are other sites where discussion about politics is better by orders of magnitude than the P&S section.

[o_e_l_e_o]

>90% of the P&S board is obviously and provably false information at this point. Most threads are a circle jerk of ignorance.

If they break one of the other rules regarding low value threads then by all means delete them, but we should not delete threads or posts just because they are provably incorrect. Free speech is more important than silencing a bunch of conspiracy nutjobs and trolls.

[Poker Player]

I also think this type of posting could cause bitcointalk grief since it is a blatant falsehood present as truth.
It is inflammatory and justifies killing since vaxxed people are no longer human.

I don't think the forum has anything to worry about, and hopefully if any government agency started giving Theymos any grief about it, he'd tell them to fuck off.  We do still live in a country that allows free speech, you know.  Youtube might have caved in and started banning accounts that take an anti-vaccine stance, but they're in bed with everyone from their advertisers to the government.  Bitcointalk is not.

You might not like what BADecker posted, but that's the whole point of free speech (which Theymos believes in, if I'm not mistaken).  The only speech that needs to be protected from censorship is the type that people don't like.

I love the defense of free speech on this forum, and I myself have expressed opinions on this forum that would have been censored elsewhere. But freedom of speech is not about being able to say anything without any limits.

Here we are talking about patently false statements. If you don't deal with that for supposedly defending freedom of speech, you shouldn't delete low value shitposter posts because you also restrict their freedom of speech.

[acroman08]

This isn't even the worst example. There is that Bootlicker or whatever the name is who openly promotes terrorism - mass killings of certain groups of people (and their families) that he dislikes.

do you mean this guy B1tUnl0ck3r? I was gonna reply on one of his thread regarding killing a leader and its family if the people of a democratic country finds the leader incompetent of his position. but I realize that it was gonna be a waste of time. the dude is a lunatic and probably a danger to society.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Here we are talking about patently false statements. If you don't deal with that for supposedly defending freedom of speech, you shouldn't delete low value shitposter posts because you also restrict their freedom of speech.

Good point, I think.  I'll have to give that some thought.  Part of me sees the contradiction, part of me sees this as the forum deciding what's true vs. what's a low-value post, e.g., "bitcoin has great future and is increasing day by day, I love bitcoin, blah blah blah".

I'd love to hear what others have to say about that.

[philipma1957]

I also think this type of posting could cause bitcointalk grief since it is a blatant falsehood present as truth.
It is inflammatory and justifies killing since vaxxed people are no longer human.

I don't think the forum has anything to worry about, and hopefully if any government agency started giving Theymos any grief about it, he'd tell them to fuck off.  We do still live in a country that allows free speech, you know.  Youtube might have caved in and started banning accounts that take an anti-vaccine stance, but they're in bed with everyone from their advertisers to the government.  Bitcointalk is not.

You might not like what BADecker posted, but that's the whole point of free speech (which Theymos believes in, if I'm not mistaken).  The only speech that needs to be protected from censorship is the type that people don't like.

I'd hope people analyse the P&S board as essentially a meme/parody by this point

I don't know why people even post there.  This is a bitcoin forum first and foremost, and there are other sites where discussion about politics is better by orders of magnitude than the P&S section.

You do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded movie theater.  as decided by the supreme court that is a crime not free speech.  If you think I am wrong go ahead and yell gun or fire in a crowd when there is no gun or fire and see if you can defend your choice of words as free speech.

 

I never said I was pro vaccine and or anti vaccine in the thread starter. BTW I have made prefectly provable statements showing the current cdc chief did something that shows political manipulation in favor of the booster shots.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5362774.msg58051802#msg58051802

that is true I can say it basically I am shouting fire in a crowded movie theater because there is a fire.

a legal example of free speech.

bad decker is shouting fire in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire. = Not protected by free speech.


How often do you see me complain about free speech violations? Not very many times maybe 1 or 2 other times. Or maybe  no other times in over 30000 posts

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded movie theater.  as decided by the supreme court that is a crime not free speech.  If you think I am wrong go ahead and yell gun or fire in a crowd when there is no gun or fire and see if you can defend your choice of words as free speech.

I'm aware of that, and I'm also aware that free speech in the US isn't without restrictions, but lying isn't one of them unless it's to obstruct justice.  Lying on an internet forum or spreading false information on one is not the same thing as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater; that's a false equivalence.  Can you imagine if the government decided to ban statements that they deemed to be false?  They'd essentially be deciding what's true and what isn't, and that sounds a lot like an Orwellian nightmare.

How often do you see me complain about free speech violations? Not very many times maybe 1 or 2 other times. Or maybe  no other times in over 30000 posts

I don't see you complaining about it often, but what does that have to do with anything?  Obviously you feel strongly about either this issue or the member who made the statement.  Either way, I don't think a post should be deleted because it's misinformation.

[philipma1957]

You do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded movie theater.  as decided by the supreme court that is a crime not free speech.  If you think I am wrong go ahead and yell gun or fire in a crowd when there is no gun or fire and see if you can defend your choice of words as free speech.

I'm aware of that, and I'm also aware that free speech in the US isn't without restrictions, but lying isn't one of them unless it's to obstruct justice.  Lying on an internet forum or spreading false information on one is not the same thing as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater; that's a false equivalence.  Can you imagine if the government decided to ban statements that they deemed to be false?  They'd essentially be deciding what's true and what isn't, and that sounds a lot like an Orwellian nightmare.

How often do you see me complain about free speech violations? Not very many times maybe 1 or 2 other times. Or maybe  no other times in over 30000 posts

I don't see you complaining about it often, but what does that have to do with anything?  Obviously you feel strongly about either this issue or the member who made the statement.  Either way, I don't think a post should be deleted because it's misinformation.

Well the problem is you are stating humans are not human.  Last I heard that is just about as close to the Hitler prequel to killing off

Gays Gypsies and Jews claiming they were subhuman allow for the killing of them without it being a murder.

If you do not see that creating an obvious falsehood the allows for  the murder  of 3 billion people as a threat to public safety as the same as falsely shouting fire in a crowded movie theater it is sad.

As I said I do not attack free speech but blatant falsehoods that endanger public safety I attack. Your reply to me assumes it is not easily proven to be a blatant falsehood  that endangers public safety.

Okay 3 billion people world wide are no longer people .

damn if they are not human so if I kill them I don't commit murder is the next logical step.  So you are saying you are in favor of our forum fostering this under the umbrella of free speech.

I live in Howell NJ right next to Lakewood NJ there are 120,000 people in that town 100,000 are Ultra Orthodox Jews I have quite a few friends from there.  One of them told me he would allow Hitler to speak about killing all the Jews because it is free speech and that if Hilter was running for office here in America he should be able to say that as a campaign theme due to free speech.

Straight up truth he told me that.   I think when people go to those extremes to defend 'free' speech it is pretty much straight a scene from a bizzaro world.   I know it is talk and if someone ran as Hitler he would be against it.

I am pretty sure if every thread had a post that said  "the Pharmacist  and philipma1957  are dangerous aliens they must be found and dealt with"

You and I would not like it. As it would be a threat to the two of us and actually harder to prove it is a blatant lie then it is to prove bad decker's is a lie.

So I actually like a few of bad decker's older posts but as he has aged or as the world has gotten  bigly weird his posts are really out there.

[suchmoon]

do you mean this guy B1tUnl0ck3r? I was gonna reply on one of his thread regarding killing a leader and its family if the people of a democratic country finds the leader incompetent of his position. but I realize that it was gonna be a waste of time. the dude is a lunatic and probably a danger to society.

Yes, that one. He often suggests killing some random politicians/celebrities and their families, which seems like an immensely idiotic thing to tolerate and a misguided application of "free speech". Even if no one cares about the actual fact of promoting violence, you'd think there would be at least some concern that if something happens to one of those people it might land this forum (and perhaps individuals like mods or admins) in hot water.

[philipma1957]

do you mean this guy B1tUnl0ck3r? I was gonna reply on one of his thread regarding killing a leader and its family if the people of a democratic country finds the leader incompetent of his position. but I realize that it was gonna be a waste of time. the dude is a lunatic and probably a danger to society.

Yes, that one. He often suggests killing some random politicians/celebrities and their families, which seems like an immensely idiotic thing to tolerate and a misguided application of "free speech". Even if no one cares about the actual fact of promoting violence, you'd think there would be at least some concern that if something happens to one of those people it might land this forum (and perhaps individuals like mods or admins) in hot water.

Yeah well what do I know I guess we are run by the FBI or CIA and they use 'free speech' honey pot to track the crazies.

Makes as much sense as anything else.

[PrimeNumber7]

>90% of the P&S board is obviously and provably false information at this point. Most threads are a circle jerk of ignorance.

I have argued before there should limits as to the number of threads that receive no replies people can make in P&S.

The above would not apply to the thread referenced in the OP because it was sufficiently outrageous that multiple people responded.

I think there might also be an argument to have a more narrow definition as to what is "politics & society" that would be allowed in the "main" P&S sub, and maybe there could be another sub within P&S in which people can start threads about more outrageous topics. I think some of the more crazy topics in P&S are discouraging people from posting in not-crazy topics, and this is a similar problem we had when there was a lot of spam in P&S, before FH became moderator.

I can not find the ruling on SCOTUS website.

The OP of that thread linked to a website that linked to a video. The video in question referenced the below SCOTUS ruling that was made in 2013: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-398_1b7d.pdf

The video in question made similarly outrageous claims as the thread title. The ruling in question was for a patient dispute, and I don't think any reasonable person would conclude that the SC ruled that "vaccinated subjects are not classified as humans".

[o_e_l_e_o]

I think some of the more crazy topics in P&S are discouraging people from posting in not-crazy topics

100% this. The majority of rational and sensible people don't bother posting in or even visiting P&S because any semi-intelligent post is drowned out by insane opinions. It's not entirely dissimilar to the situation with Bitcoin Discussion, with many good posters avoiding the board entirely because any semi-decent post is drowned out by spam.

It is impossible to have a fact driven discussion regarding, for example, the best way of easing lockdown restrictions, without being flooded with nonsense about how COVID isn't real but it also is real but it's just a flu but actually it's all a psy-op and the vaccine doesn't work but also it's a nanochip but also it's gene therapy but also it's a lethal injection but also it's mind control etc. etc.

I still don't think we should delete those insane opinions, but I would be all for moving them all to Off Topic or something similar. Or I guess we just treat P&S as Off Topic 2 and any reasonable discussion move to Serious Discussion.

As I said I do not attack free speech but blatant falsehoods that endanger public safety I attack.

Here's the issue what that though: In my opinion, stating that vaccines aren't life saving/cause autism/are microchips in disguide/any of the other bullshit is a blatant falsehood which endangers public safety, so therefore, we should delete every anti-vax post. I'm fairly certain there would be a significant amount of fall out if we did that.

[Poker Player]

I'll have to give that some thought.  Part of me sees the contradiction, part of me sees this as the forum deciding what's true vs. what's a low-value post, e.g., "bitcoin has great future and is increasing day by day, I love bitcoin, blah blah blah".

I'd love to hear what others have to say about that.

I am finding the debate interesting because I think we are moving from judging this particular case to talking in general about what the limits to freedom of expression should be. I don't have an explicit idea, but it is clear to me that there have to be some limits, for example, I agree with the unofficial rule 8: "No threats to inflict bodily harm, death threats." I think it is clear that this should be a limit to freedom of speech, but it seems to refer only between forumers and not when a forumer talks about external people, as suchmoon says:

do you mean this guy B1tUnl0ck3r? I was gonna reply on one of his thread regarding killing a leader and its family if the people of a democratic country finds the leader incompetent of his position. but I realize that it was gonna be a waste of time. the dude is a lunatic and probably a danger to society.

Yes, that one. He often suggests killing some random politicians/celebrities and their families...

On the other hand, I think philipma1957 is right in this particular case when he says:

Well the problem is you are stating humans are not human.  Last I heard that is just about as close to the Hitler prequel to killing off

This is not nonsense, the great genocides of humanity have been committed because the other was dehumanized. Hitler dehumanized the Jews, the Hutu dehumanized the Tutsi etc. and when you do not consider the person in front of you as human, but as a cockroach, what you do is to kill him and when you finish, not only do you not feel pity but disgust.

Let us know how that goes. I've reported some of BADecker's far more shitty posts without success so I'm not wasting my time on this. He seems to have solid immunity (no pun intended) here.

I still have the report in unhandled, it seems to me that it will stay that way. I suppose that at the slightest doubt on that board no action is taken because of respect for freedom of expression, and if in this same thread we do not agree, it is normal that the moderators have doubts.