The vaccination issue is not bipolar

[Jet Cash]

Everybody seems to assume that there are only two positions for vaccination. This is not true, but there are two extremes. In between there are some other views. There is the "my body, my choice" bunch, but this is a bit emotional and mindless in my opinion. My stance is a bit more reasoned in my belief. I believe that vaccines are a preventative measure, and not a cure. They should be used as an advance safeguard if one is likely to be exposed to infection, but should not be used as a cure. Once a disease becomes endemic in a population, all vaccines will do is to disrupt and overload the immune system, and their use will just encourage a virus to mutate. If a person has a weakened immune system, then the last thing you want to do is to overload it with a new infection. It is far better to attack the virus directly with methods such as monoclonal antibody injection. One should also try to  work with the natural defences. These include -

- Don't stay indoors, but get out into the sun to boost your vitamin "D"
- Let your body get rid of the pathogens by not wearing a mask, and not taking pharmaceuticals to suppress symptoms that are nature's way of fighting the disease.
- Get out and exercise in the fresh air.
- Interact with people to avoid depression

You may notice that my suggestions are directly opposed to government guidelines,  and, on reflection, you may realise that the government doesn't want you to be healthy and recover from the disease quickly. It is in their interest to keep you dependent on their synthetic health system, and to carry on the associated wealth transfer that distracts you from the other changes that are being introduced.

[Cnut237]

Once a disease becomes endemic in a population, all vaccines will do is to disrupt and overload the immune system, and their use will just encourage a virus to mutate.

The number of variants that arise is proportional to the amount of the virus in circulation. Vaccination reduces the number of variants.

Let your body get rid of the pathogens by not wearing a mask

There is no medical reason to not wear a mask. By refusing to wear a mask, you contribute to the spread of the virus. By refusing also to have a vaccine, you contribute to the spread of the virus. You are actively encouraging the rise of new variants by increasing the chances of catching the virus and then infecting other people. By refusing to take the vaccine you are also working to prevent herd immunity, and so increasing the chances of this becoming endemic (although this now seems an inevitability in any case).

the government doesn't want you to be healthy and recover from the disease quickly. It is in their interest to keep you dependent on their synthetic health system, and to carry on the associated wealth transfer

I agree in part with the government (certainly in the UK) being interested primarily (I might even say exclusively) in the transfer of wealth from ordinary people to themselves and their Eton cronies. But to do this, they need the economy fully open and working. They don't want businesses closed and lockdowns in place, they want the taps fully open again, and the old tried and trusted system fully restored.

[Jet Cash]

The number of variants that arise is proportional to the amount of the virus in circulation. Vaccination reduces the number of variants.

I'm not sure where you get this information, but lets look at the way I came to my uneducated conclusion.

I'm an ex mainframe systems programmer, so I tend to have an enquiring mind, and I like to get to the root of things. Corona Viruses have been around since the 1930s, and there haven't been many variants until fairly recently, now we suddenly seem to have variants almost every day. So I wondered what was causing this. This led to to try to discover the way that viruses replicate amongst other things. Viruses don't have a sex life, but nature does need to find a way to encourage them to mutate and cope with attempts to destroy them. There is a fairly simple process to allow this. A virus doesn't create a complete clone, but builds half of a new virus, and then goes away. The  second half of the new virus is crewated by a different virus ( or possibly the same one). If both viruses are of the same strain, then the new virus will probably be a clone. Of course there may be errors, but there is a good chance that these will be non-viable. If a cell contains more than one strain of a virus type, then the second half combined with the first half will create a variant. Vaccination creates different strains of the virus, and is focused solely on the spike protein. Natural selection will tend to give preference to variants with modified envelopes that can avoid selection based on a simple spike protein check. Natural immunity will check all 28 of the proteins  on the envelope, and this means that variants are more likely to be detected and destroyed.

This is the reason that all previous medical advice states that vaccines should be used as a prevention and not a cure. They should not be used where a virus has become endemic. This is the first time when this advice has been ignored. Also, medical opinion advises that vaccines are not needed where strong natural immunity is present. Again, this is the fist vaccine that goes against this advice.

It is obvious that vaccination against Covid has nothing to do with health, and everything to do with wealth transfer and population control.

[Cnut237]

The number of variants that arise is proportional to the amount of the virus in circulation. Vaccination reduces the number of variants.

I'm not sure where you get this information, but lets look at the way I came to my uneducated conclusion.

First, thanks for conceding that you're not an expert. Neither am I. Neither are most others in this forum. But not everyone admits that. The basis of my point above is that a variant is simply a copying error. The more instances of copying there are, the more variants will be produced. The more of a virus there is in circulation, the more variants will arise. Some worse, some not so bad, some not viable at all.

Corona Viruses have been around since the 1930s, and there haven't been many variants until fairly recently, now we suddenly seem to have variants almost every day. So I wondered what was causing this.

They were around for a long time before they were identified. And there are plenty of variants of common coronaviruses... it's just that they're not a concern if not deadly. A variant is simply a copying error. The reason there are so many viable variants of Covid-19 is that there is a lot of the virus in circulation.

Natural selection will tend to give preference to variants with modified envelopes

I will not deny that vaccines exert selection pressure on a virus. But this isn't as important a factor as the amount of virus in circulation. If vaccines reduce the amount of virus by providing immunity and reducing spread (which they do), then this vastly outweighs any selection pressure they exert. Consider antibiotic resistance in the case of bacteria... it makes sense not to administer antibiotics for trivial reasons, but no-one is suggesting that we stop using antibiotics entirely. Besides which, even if vaccines did exert a considerable selection pressure, it's a two-horse race... vaccines are modified to combat new variants of concern, as with the annual flu shot.

medical opinion advises that vaccines are not needed where strong natural immunity is present. Again, this is the fist vaccine that goes against this advice.

There is no strong natural immunity. This is a novel coronavirus; it has not been encountered before. There is no pre-existing immunity. The two routes through which an individual can contribute to herd immunity are a) take the vaccine, or b) catch the virus. There's no third route.

It is obvious that vaccination against Covid has nothing to do with health, and everything to do with wealth transfer and population control.

I agree that in our country the Tories are interested in exploiting the population for their own gain. But the system has been set up this way and has been working fine for them for a long time now. They don't need to wreck a system that is already rigged hugely in their favour. And population control is irrelevant, it controls itself in time, the five stage demographic transition model is well understood.

[Ems.]

Any kinds of vaccine,there's a changes ,when they inject to human,every vaccine need to test what is the reaction,so they can check what is the ability that,VACCINES to human.There's different effects to human and causes,depends to individuals status of there body situations..if one person can manage itself that vaccine.

[Xinarae*]

The issue of vaccination is not bipolar but can manage the condition of the human body itself. If any issue does not work after receiving the vaccine, the physical condition is maintained the vaccine does not bring any activity it is the result of frustration bipolar is a type of mental illness people with bipolar disorder lack confidence and sometimes become overconfident. Many people also have nightmares in this disease bipolar is a bad condition which lasts a long time.

[BADecker]

The issue of vaccination is not bipolar but can manage the condition of the human body itself. If any issue does not work after receiving the vaccine, the physical condition is maintained the vaccine does not bring any activity it is the result of frustration bipolar is a type of mental illness people with bipolar disorder lack confidence and sometimes become overconfident. Many people also have nightmares in this disease bipolar is a bad condition which lasts a long time.

Except, of course, when people take  the time to peruse Open VAERS and all its CDC backup data. Then they see the almost 2 million deaths from the Covid vaxxes, and the millions of other health problems the vaxxes create.

[Cnut237]

Open VAERS

It's been pointed out to you many times, by me and by others, that this is a scam website. But here we go again...

OpenVAERS is a U.S.-focused site that was created in January this year. The project used to live on thearkivist.net, which was created in September 2019, until its owner created a separate website dedicated to the misrepresentation of COVID-19 vaccine data. OpenVAERS repackages raw federal data from the official VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) website to push an anti-vax agenda. The site misrepresents data collected on VAERS and publishes it in a way that has very likely made a significant contribution to vaccine hesitancy. The website publishes unverified data and statistics on how many people have allegedly died or suffered injuries after getting their COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.logically.ai/articles/california-woman-anti-vax-site-openvaers

Even if you do at some point manage to find a site that reports impartially on VAERS data, it's hardly evidence of anything, given that VAERS is a self-reporting system. I've explained this to you before, too. But as we're regurgitating previous conversations that you may have "forgotten", let's have that quote again:

VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.

The strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and can quickly provide an early warning of a safety problem with a vaccine. As part of CDC and FDA’s multi-system approach to post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring, VAERS is designed to rapidly detect unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse events, also known as “safety signals.” If a safety signal is found in VAERS, further studies can be done in safety systems such as the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) or the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project. These systems do not have the same scientific limitations as VAERS, and can better assess health risks and possible connections between adverse events and a vaccine.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

[ferrisbullish]

it's really scary to read something like this in 2021.

I believed the antivax discussion had been dropped in the early or mid 20th century.

After eradicating polio measles and so many other stupid diseases that used to kill people...

but nowadays they even believe in flat Earth, don't they?  

[Jet Cash]

People don't seem to be addressing the main point of this thread. It is that there are not just two positions - vaccination or vaccination opposition. Measles, mumps and other diseases are referenced, but nobody points out that medical opinion states that vaccination is not required if a person has recovered from a prior infection. It admits that natural immunity is as good, or better, than vaccination. Covid is the first disease that is being promoted by governments in contradiction of this fact. I genuinely believe that I have strong natural immunity, and because of my lifestyle and age, I cannot afford to risk vaccination which research indicates that it will reduce my immunity, and will expose me to short and long term health risks. I'm not anti-vax, but I believe that vaccines should be tested comprehensively, and the result made available for public scrutiny. Also, I believe that adequate should be given to those administering them. For example, many of the vaccination failures may be the result of a failure to aspirate the syringe before pressing the plunger.

[Cnut237]

there are not just two positions - vaccination or vaccination opposition.

Agreed. Someone who sees things in shades of grey rather than black or white generally has a more considered perspective.

vaccination is not required if a person has recovered from a prior infection. It admits that natural immunity is as good, or better, than vaccination.

Yes, I don't think this is in dispute.

Covid is the first disease that is being promoted by governments in contradiction of this fact.

Well, not really. Your route to natural immunity is to catch the virus. If the virus can be fatal, it is preferable to take a safe, proven vaccine. Quite apart from the fact that if you catch the virus, you can spread it to others.

I genuinely believe that I have strong natural immunity

But if it's not proven, then it's simply belief, which may be flawed.

because of my lifestyle and age, I cannot afford to risk vaccination

It's not suitable for everyone. This is why there are screening questions. Even so, there is I suppose in theory a very small chance that you have an undiagnosed pre-existing condition, which means you're not suitable. In such instances the vaccine can cause problems... but it's highly likely that for such a person catching Covid would have caused more severe problems.

I believe that vaccines should be tested comprehensively, and the result made available for public scrutiny.

They have been, they are. It's understandable that the vaccines are released quickly given a global pandemic, but they have still completed the standard trials process, and data are available.

many of the vaccination failures may be the result of a failure to aspirate the syringe before pressing the plunger.

The people administering the vaccine must be properly trained, yes. Not least so that they accurately identify those who shouldn't take the vaccine.

[figliar0]

medical opinion advises that vaccines are not needed where strong natural immunity is present. Again, this is the fist vaccine that goes against this advice.

There is no strong natural immunity. This is a novel coronavirus; it has not been encountered before. There is no pre-existing immunity. The two routes through which an individual can contribute to herd immunity are a) take the vaccine, or b) catch the virus. There's no third route.

Of course that natural immunity exists - there is general non-specific immunity, which is used against new viruses. If something like this wouldn't exists, every new virus will exterminate whole mankind.

Let your body get rid of the pathogens by not wearing a mask

There is no medical reason to not wear a mask. By refusing to wear a mask, you contribute to the spread of the virus. By refusing also to have a vaccine, you contribute to the spread of the virus. You are actively encouraging the rise of new variants by increasing the chances of catching the virus and then infecting other people. By refusing to take the vaccine you are also working to prevent herd immunity, and so increasing the chances of this becoming endemic (although this now seems an inevitability in any case).

Of course there are many reasons. I have some specific medical issues, which gets much worse in wet environment and wearing masks get it worse. Psychological problems exists too (these are medical issues too). Wearing mask for a long time is not natural, because people just had to breath...

I wrote a post to you in another topic, but you didn't answer. Why do you blame anti-waxers, but don't agree with contribution of pro-waxers to other issues conjuctive with covid restrictions?

[ferrisbullish]

People don't seem to be addressing the main point of this thread. It is that there are not just two positions - vaccination or vaccination opposition. Measles, mumps and other diseases are referenced, but nobody points out that medical opinion states that vaccination is not required if a person has recovered from a prior infection. It admits that natural immunity is as good, or better, than vaccination. Covid is the first disease that is being promoted by governments in contradiction of this fact. I genuinely believe that I have strong natural immunity, and because of my lifestyle and age, I cannot afford to risk vaccination which research indicates that it will reduce my immunity, and will expose me to short and long term health risks. I'm not anti-vax, but I believe that vaccines should be tested comprehensively, and the result made available for public scrutiny. Also, I believe that adequate should be given to those administering them. For example, many of the vaccination failures may be the result of a failure to aspirate the syringe before pressing the plunger.

in short: you afraid of the injection.

No, doctors don't say it will lower your immunity. Maybe some weird blog becarefulpatriots.com says that.

WHO recommends that everyone get vaccinated. They're scientists, science works with consensus, based on studies. You don't choose to believe the doctor you like the most. This is opinion, not science.

There may be contraindications for a few people, very few. But basically those who refuse to be vaccinated harm the collective; selfish people who just don't care and put their fears above everyone else, sadly.

[PrimeNumber7]

For the overwhelming majority of people, they should get the Covid vaccine (and most other vaccines). But it should be their choice to do so. Government mandates are wrong and are not going to convince many people to get the vaccine.

In order to increase confidence in the vaccine, the costs (potential side effects and their prevalence) should be clearly disclosed, along with the chances of preventing various types of instances of the disease it is preventing, and the potential negative outcomes for people who are unvaccinated and catch the disease it is preventing. This information can be customized for an individual’s specific condition. For almost everyone, the above information will indicate the person should get the vaccine, but again the individual should be the one to decide.

For Covid specifically, if you don’t get the vaccine, you are almost certainly going to get Covid.

The description of how vaccines work in the OP is incorrect.

[Cnut237]

Of course that natural immunity exists - there is general non-specific immunity, which is used against new viruses. If something like this wouldn't exists, every new virus will exterminate whole mankind.

General innate immunity doesn't make you invincible. Many people have died from Covid. The way to achieve immunity to Covid is either catch it, or take the vaccine. There isn't a third option.

Let your body get rid of the pathogens by not wearing a mask

There is no medical reason to not wear a mask.

Of course there are many reasons. I have some specific medical issues, which gets much worse in wet environment and wearing masks get it worse. Psychological problems exists too (these are medical issues too). Wearing mask for a long time is not natural, because people just had to breath...

I should have been clearer. I meant specifically in response to Jet Cash's argument that wearing a mask is counterproductive, and that no-one should wear masks. You are of course correct that sometimes people cannot wear masks for medical (including psychological) reasons.

I wrote a post to you in another topic, but you didn't answer. Why do you blame anti-waxers, but don't agree with contribution of pro-waxers to other issues conjuctive with covid restrictions?

Apologies, I either didn't see it, or else was too focused on responding to someone else. As for blaming anti-vaxxers, I have yet to see valid data to support their arguments, whereas there are mountains of data to refute them conclusively. Whilst Jet Cash is right that people are different, and certainly anti-vaxxers aren't all the same, many anti-vaxxer arguments are faith-based rather than fact-based. Their position is in direct opposition to all the evidence. I'm not sure what you mean in your second point "don't agree with contribution of pro-waxers to other issues conjuctive with covid restrictions" - please could you clarify?

[figliar0]

Of course that natural immunity exists - there is general non-specific immunity, which is used against new viruses. If something like this wouldn't exists, every new virus will exterminate whole mankind.

General innate immunity doesn't make you invincible. Many people have died from Covid. The way to achieve immunity to Covid is either catch it, or take the vaccine. There isn't a third option.

Many people died, but many people also hasn't any symptoms. Isn't it because of this general immunity?

I wrote a post to you in another topic, but you didn't answer. Why do you blame anti-waxers, but don't agree with contribution of pro-waxers to other issues conjuctive with covid restrictions?

Apologies, I either didn't see it, or else was too focused on responding to someone else. As for blaming anti-vaxxers, I have yet to see valid data to support their arguments, whereas there are mountains of data to refute them conclusively. Whilst Jet Cash is right that people are different, and certainly anti-vaxxers aren't all the same, many anti-vaxxer arguments are faith-based rather than fact-based. Their position is in direct opposition to all the evidence. I'm not sure what you mean in your second point "don't agree with contribution of pro-waxers to other issues conjuctive with covid restrictions" - please could you clarify?

What is the data supporting pro-waxers arguments? Those data comes from people directly motivated by finance income. Is those data reliable? Lets say it directly: politicians lied to us lots of time, how can I trust to them? So pro-vaxxers arguments are based on faith, that politicians do not lie.

To the last sentence. The gov restrictions has some negative effects (individual psychological condition, economy, education, individual bussiness, employment...). I thing (based on your argumentation), that pro-waxxers (or generally pro-gov-restrictions people) contribute to these issues by obeying government. Isn't they?

[Cnut237]

Many people died, but many people also hasn't any symptoms. Isn't it because of this general immunity?

This discussion point started on Jet Cash's assertion that vaccination was unnecessary. You are saying that some people have been exposed to Covid, and yet experienced no symptoms. Yes, agreed. You are also saying that many people have died from Covid. Yes, agreed. So why is vaccination unnecessary?

What is the data supporting pro-waxers arguments? Those data comes from people directly motivated by finance income. Is those data reliable? Lets say it directly: politicians lied to us lots of time, how can I trust to them? So pro-vaxxers arguments are based on faith, that politicians do not lie.

The vast collection of data from ourworldindata is available for download here: https://github.com/owid/covid-19-data/tree/master/public/data
The list of sources is available here: https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19

It is not a question of faith in politicians. I have zero faith in politicians, and I don't trust our government at all. My background and expertise is in science and data. I look at the data.

pro-waxxers (or generally pro-gov-restrictions people) contribute to these issues by obeying government.

I started working from home and taking distancing precautions whilst our government (UK) was still insisting Covid wouldn't be a problem. The data from Italy and Spain were clear, yet the fools in charge don't understand (or willfully misunderstand) the data.
Similarly I still wear a mask when I'm out, but our government have said they're no longer needed.
It is not a question of pro-vaxxers blindly trusting government.

Is your issue with the Covid vaccines in particular, or with the concept of vaccination in general? Historical data for smallpox and polio as two examples from many, are perfectly clear.

[libertasbella]

you may realise that the government doesn't want you to be healthy and recover from the disease quickly. It is in their interest to keep you dependent on their synthetic health system, and to carry on the associated wealth transfer that distracts you from the other changes that are being introduced.

Always blows my mind that people don't realize that the greatest threat to safeyty are the people who promise safety.

[BADecker]

The number of variants that arise is proportional to the amount of the virus in circulation. Vaccination reduces the number of variants.


 

That is not TRUE. and it is documented in medical paper.



 
There is no medical reason to not wear a mask.

That is not TRUE. and it is documented in medical paper

 

Lol Masks work, eh? Document this https://www.bitchute.com/video/rlWESmrijl8Q/.

Then document the dozens of of videos here https://www.bitchute.com/channel/okiFK5CwQrZS/ that show what's really going on with masks.

And if you want to see the danger of masks... https://www.bitchute.com/video/ypLjmXQoLygi/.

[Beparanf]

you may realise that the government doesn't want you to be healthy and recover from the disease quickly. It is in their interest to keep you dependent on their synthetic health system, and to carry on the associated wealth transfer that distracts you from the other changes that are being introduced.

Always blows my mind that people don't realize that the greatest threat to safeyty are the people who promise safety.

Yeah, Good for people living in rich country but very bad for those 3rd world country that continuously buying this vaccine and just following what leader country move. Virus are already mutating in different variant right now so this vaccine will just make things work in the long run if people don't develop antibodies to kill this virus.

I agree on @Jetcash suggestion btw, with some minor addition like social distancing in public.