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Author Topic: True Random for automatic offline address generator  (Read 425 times)
j2002ba2
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October 19, 2021, 10:37:25 AM
Merited by fillippone (3), vapourminer (2), ABCbits (1)
 #21

For the intent the radio mustn't have good reception, the more interference the better, as long as it isn't just white noise, I don't actually want to be listening to whatever is said over radio waves.

You sound confused. More noise is more entropy. Less noise is less. You want as much noise as possible. You are trying to use "radio noise", but for somehow want less noise?

White noise is used as the basis of some random number generators. For example, Random.org uses a system of atmospheric antennae to generate random digit patterns from white noise.

SirArthur (OP)
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October 19, 2021, 11:11:50 PM
Last edit: October 22, 2021, 04:33:00 PM by SirArthur
 #22


You sound confused. More noise is more entropy. Less noise is less. You want as much noise as possible. You are trying to use "radio noise", but for somehow want less noise?

Let me clarify then; I said if only gets white noise, means if the receiver is so bad that isn't able to receive any broadcast at all. White noise is obviously welcome for entropy.

Update on the first attempt:

As I said this week I'll start trying around (time permitting), and for this first attempt I used a cheap analogical AM receiver. But the results were a disaster. I started to get a pattern, and it turns out the only thing the receiver was receiving was interference from the electronics around.
Will retry next week changing some stuff.
Pantagru6772
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October 24, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (4), vapourminer (1), ABCbits (1), Husna QA (1)
 #23

Hi,

Have you considered using turbulent air flow as a source of randomness? It would be quite localized if you use a home fan to generate the turbulent air flow. My opinion is that if an attacker copies your hardware exactly and is listening to the same frequencies as you in a close enough location, he/she would be able to copy your signal. On the other hand, even if the attacker has the same hardware as you, he can't possibly read the same turbulent air signal as you. To do that, he would have to place the pressure sensor really, really close to yours.

larry_vw_1955
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October 25, 2021, 02:52:37 AM
 #24

Hi,

Have you considered using turbulent air flow as a source of randomness?


turbulence is not completely random so it may be somewhat predictable in its output of the pressure sensor. and exhibit patterns.
Pantagru6772
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October 26, 2021, 12:00:30 PM
Merited by NotATether (3), ABCbits (2), Husna QA (1), fillippone (1)
 #25


turbulence is not completely random so it may be somewhat predictable in its output of the pressure sensor. and exhibit patterns.

Technically it is not random as there is a mathematical description of it in the Navier-Stokes equations, but since these are unsolvable in all but highly idealized situations, in practice it is a random phenomena.
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October 28, 2021, 07:00:48 AM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #26


turbulence is not completely random so it may be somewhat predictable in its output of the pressure sensor. and exhibit patterns.

Technically it is not random as there is a mathematical description of it in the Navier-Stokes equations, but since these are unsolvable in all but highly idealized situations, in practice it is a random phenomena.

Also let me mention that there is no perfectly random physical source as they all can be modeled by some sort of mathematical equation, so your target should be to use a source with properties for which it would be very laborious and difficult for someone to create a controlled interference in. Hence the turbulence idea.

Just attach a standing miniature fan next to your box and then place a sensor in front of it to measure its turbulence and feed that as entropy into the system (perhaps even regular pressure/velocity measurements may be suitable if an attacker can't find a way to control these props).
Pantagru6772
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October 28, 2021, 03:59:23 PM
 #27


turbulence is not completely random so it may be somewhat predictable in its output of the pressure sensor. and exhibit patterns.

Technically it is not random as there is a mathematical description of it in the Navier-Stokes equations, but since these are unsolvable in all but highly idealized situations, in practice it is a random phenomena.

Also let me mention that there is no perfectly random physical source as they all can be modeled by some sort of mathematical equation, so your target should be to use a source with properties for which it would be very laborious and difficult for someone to create a controlled interference in. Hence the turbulence idea.

Just attach a standing miniature fan next to your box and then place a sensor in front of it to measure its turbulence and feed that as entropy into the system (perhaps even regular pressure/velocity measurements may be suitable if an attacker can't find a way to control these props).

Exactly the setup I was thinking would work.
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October 28, 2021, 10:10:40 PM
Merited by NotFuzzyWarm (1)
 #28


turbulence is not completely random so it may be somewhat predictable in its output of the pressure sensor. and exhibit patterns.

Technically it is not random as there is a mathematical description of it in the Navier-Stokes equations, but since these are unsolvable in all but highly idealized situations, in practice it is a random phenomena.

Also let me mention that there is no perfectly random physical source as they all can be modeled by some sort of mathematical equation, so your target should be to use a source with properties for which it would be very laborious and difficult for someone to create a controlled interference in. Hence the turbulence idea.

Just attach a standing miniature fan next to your box and then place a sensor in front of it to measure its turbulence and feed that as entropy into the system (perhaps even regular pressure/velocity measurements may be suitable if an attacker can't find a way to control these props).
The input from this could be replicated by "just attach a standing miniature fan next to your box and then place a sensor in front of it to measure its turbulence".

When generating private keys of any sort, you should not try to reinvent the wheel. If you are using something as a means to generate entropy in addition to using entropy from a known secure way of generating entropy, at best, you are going to have the same amount of entropy, but you may end up with less entropy.

You either trust your computer to generate a random number or you don't. Using additional input is not going to change this trust. If you don't trust your computer to generate a random number, you should use something that you know will produce a random output, such as a coin toss or a dice roll.
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