Privacy vs. anonymity

[o_e_l_e_o]

If it ever becomes impossible to use bitcoin privately, what makes you think Monero will be the solution? Based on what we've said, you should never take Monero seriously.

Because I'm considering privacy here and not whether or not a coin can become a global payment solution.

If you want bitcoin to become a global payment solution, then it must be done with the tacit approval of governments worldwide. As much as I hate that that is true, that is the situation we find ourselves in. I don't think governments would ever allow an anonymous coin like monero to become a global payment solution, and will only allow it to happen for bitcoin provided they can continue to spy on the vast majority of bitcoin users through centralized exchanges, KYC, blockchain analysis, etc.

Now, if it ever becomes impossible to use bitcoin privately, it will be because governments around the world have shut down every mixer, shut down every P2P marketplace, shut down every merchant who accepts non-KYC payments, and so on. Sure, they can't stop me from owning bitcoin or running a node or buying and selling peer to peer, but they can make it near impossible for me to use it as a currency to buy my groceries or whatever without buying in to their KYC nonsense, and they can use a lot of resources to deanonymize me and monitor my transactions. At that point, bitcoin will have failed in its objective to be a peer to peer currency without any third party intermediaries. And so I'll switch to monero. I don't think monero will never be a global payment solution, but more importantly, I'll be able to use it privately.

[BlackHatCoiner]

There are some things I don't understand of you.

You support privacy to the bone, but you're also in favor of using a currency that is broadly accepted. For instance, at the moment, you prefer using bitcoin rather than monero, because its adoption isn't significant.

You thought of an example where the governments have made it impossible to use bitcoin privately. In order for such thing to happen, they must behave completely autocratically, especially for shutting down mixers, P2P marketplaces etc. And I'm just saying: What's the purpose of adopting globally this anarchic type of currency if you're going to have this behavior?

There's no reason. Just force me to use your digital currency; that's clear. Why forcing me to use a currency whose purpose is to replace the middleman when I can't use it that way?

I tried to examine your sayings, but the following doesn't make any sense;

At that point, bitcoin will have failed in its objective to be a peer to peer currency without any third party intermediaries. And so I'll switch to monero. I don't think monero will never be a global payment solution, but more importantly, I'll be able to use it privately.

And here's my question, again:  What makes you think that monero will be your salvation if the governments behave so autocratically towards bitcoin? They'll shut down mixers, P2P marketplaces, they may even censor the transactions that are mined and thus, the ones who confirm them... And they won't deal with monero? They'll make it practically impossible to use it.


You're viewing the government as an absolute entity. That's fine, but I'm just saying that both bitcoin and monero are meaningless that way.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You support privacy to the bone, but you're also in favor of using a currency that is broadly accepted.

Such is the nature of compromise. If I wanted to be really private, I'd quit my job, take a hammer to all my electronic devices, cut ties with everyone I know, and go live in a hut in the woods and hunt my own food. As long as I can obtain a level of privacy I am comfortable with while still using bitcoin and while bitcoin continues to grow, then I'm happy.

What's the purpose of adopting globally this anarchic type of currency if you're going to have this behavior?

What's the point of governments allowing people to use it? So they can tax it and use it as another tool to spy on their citizens, in a way that cash transactions have never let them do before.

What makes you think that monero will be your salvation if the governments behave so autocratically towards bitcoin? They'll shut down mixers, P2P marketplaces, they may even censor the transactions that are mined and thus, the ones who confirms them... And they won't deal with monero? They'll make it practically impossible to use it.

I'm sure they would try, but monero is inherently more censorship resistant than bitcoin, and therefore more resistant to these kinds of actions. Good luck censoring transactions when you can't see the sending address, the receiving address, or the amount being sent.

[BlackHatCoiner]

What's the point of governments allowing people to use it? So they can tax it and use it as another tool to spy on their citizens, in a way that cash transactions have never let them do before.

Which brings me back to this question;

What's the purpose of adopting globally this anarchic type of currency if you're going to have this behavior?

There's no reason. Just force me to use your digital currency; that's clear. Why forcing me to use a currency whose purpose is to replace the middleman when I can't use it that way?

They'll have much more control with a CBDC and no need for chain analysis.

I'm sure they would try, but monero is inherently more censorship resistant than bitcoin, and therefore more resistant to these kinds of actions. Good luck censoring transactions when you can't see the sending address, the receiving address, or the amount being sent.

I don't think I was clear enough. You can remain private as long as you transact with monero, yeah. But, what happens when it's forbidden for the merchants to accept it? Isn't it useless? You said it before;

I can hide the fact that I am using Monero by running my own node over Tor and not linking it to my real life identity and all the rest of it, but what can I do with my Monero? No merchant accepts it. I can't use it to buy goods or services.

As I wrote, you contradict yourself.

[o_e_l_e_o]

As I said, you contradict yourself.

Because I'm talking about different scenarios:

1 - Global adoption of a cryptocurrency, likely governments will only allow it if they can monitor the majority of users. Most likely to be bitcoin, and as long as there are still tools and methods available for me individually to protect my privacy and not trust third parties, then I'm still happy to use it.

2 - Global crackdown on all cryptocurrencies, widespread bans, making anything except centralized and KYCed use illegal, requiring third party intermediaries. Then I'm going to the cryptocurrency most likely to allow me to avoid all that, which is monero.

[BlackHatCoiner]

2 - Global crackdown on all cryptocurrencies, widespread bans, making anything except centralized and KYCed use illegal, requiring third party intermediaries. Then I'm going to the cryptocurrency most likely to allow me to avoid all that, which is monero.

So, you're telling me that, in a global crackdown on all cryptocurrencies, you would use monero even if it was illegal? That you'd rather being a criminal to retain your privacy?

[o_e_l_e_o]

So, you're telling me that, in a global crackdown on all cryptocurrencies, you would use monero even if it was illegal? That you'd rather being a criminal to retain your privacy?

Maybe.

[witcher_sense]

So, you're telling me that, in a global crackdown on all cryptocurrencies, you would use monero even if it was illegal? That you'd rather being a criminal to retain your privacy?

Any sensible person would agree that if a law renders honest people defending their rights criminals, there must be something wrong with that law itself, not people.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Any sensible person would agree that if a law renders honest people defending their rights criminals, there must be something wrong with that law itself, not people.

This is exactly what happens in the extreme scenario where every government behaves autocratically. There's no respect to human rights.

[DaveF]

Drifting a bit from when I started this a few weeks ago but I really find it funny (or perhaps a bit sad) that you have people on this forum who are screaming about privacy this and privacy that. Followed by, "When Te$la starts taking BTC again I am going to get myself one"
So you care about privacy but you are getting a vehicle that phones home and stores more data then Apple, Google and Microsoft combined.

One of many articles about it:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/29/tesla-model-3-keeps-data-like-crash-videos-location-phone-contacts.html

So outside of the crypto / finance / phone / PC areas of life, where else are we compromising our privacy and anonymity?
I'm starting to like my old motorcycle with the technology of a brick more and more.

-Dave

[Argoo]

People criticize centralized exchanges (including me) but yet they use banks LOL. Do you see the irony?

Sometimes we have to compromise. I have a job which pays in fiat. I need that job to pay my mortgage and support my family. That job will not pay me in bitcoin nor in cash, and so I must have a bank account in order to live. If I could self host my own wallet and be paid directly in to it without any third parties as I can with bitcoin, then believe me I would. I have a mortgage, I have insurance, I have utility bills, etc., as does everyone. It is impossible to operate within modern society anonymously. If you want to be completely anonymous, then you have to go live in the woods and scavenge or grow your own food. A bank account is a necessary evil for working within the fiat system. If we ever reach a stage where I can be paid and pay all my bills from my own bitcoin wallet, then I'll be the first one to wave goodbye to my fiat bank.

Therefore, in cryptocurrency, we can count on a certain confidentiality of the individual, since this is a basic right of every person. However, with an increase in the level of regulation of the circulation of cryptocurrency in society, our anonymity will continue to fall and I do not know what will remain of it in the end. States in general are against cryptocurrency anonymity. Where cryptocurrency comes into contact with fiat, states will establish such rules so that there is no anonymity at all.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So outside of the crypto / finance / phone / PC areas of life, where else are we compromising our privacy and anonymity?

Talking about "smart cars" which track your every move and record everything which is said inside your car, smart appliances and smart homes are the next biggest things I think. TVs which know what you watch, doorbells which know who is visiting you and when, fridges which know what you buy, ovens which know what you cook, any audio assistant such as Alexa or Google which knows literally everything that is said inside your house, and so on. Some of these devices even boast that they will "learn your schedule/routine" automatically, as if having some anonymous AI somewhere knowing your every move inside your own home is somehow a good thing.

If this is really your thing, then are open source alternatives such as https://www.home-assistant.io/. Call me old fashioned, but I prefer to just open my door rather than answer it from my fridge (https://www.samsung.com/us/connected-living/familyhub-doorbell-bundle/).

[BlackHatCoiner]

So outside of the crypto / finance / phone / PC areas of life, where else are we compromising our privacy and anonymity?

Umm, everywhere? With the globalization of the internet and the rapid growth of technology (due to the former), the governments have found their way to enter our lives and violate our privacy. You want to have a smart phone? A smart TV? A smart car? This epoch of having everything digitally is nevertheless helping mankind in a lot of sectors, but I can't deny that we're constantly transforming into objects of operation from large companies.

The problem lies on the oligopoly that's prevailing currently. World-ruling companies such as Google, Facebook etc. have obtained so much information about everyone that, besides it's economically unhealthy, it is anti-democratic. We've already seen what can they do if their information is demanded.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but I repeat;

enjoy the few squares of your privacy that're left.

[dbc23]

I do care alot about both anonymousity and privacy but I think I have none since my exchange is completely centralized and for me to do reasonable transaction my KYC has to be verified. Just like Op I just wish my online life will just reboot so I can decide on how to shy away from any centralized platform

[dimox]

actually, people know about tracking, and the other thing that relate with privacy and anonymous.
this thing can be felt if someone never show who is he. you can cover identity with many mask you want, and when you show it, your anonymity will disappear, though is just one person. sometime, privacy following the system made, but we can easily show it because the system not perfect as we want. and the fact, shadow will always track your privacy and we dont have any power to hide it

[rizqoAD]

I think today's crypto world cannot maintain our anonymity and privacy, this is because we use exchanges that are legal in our respective countries and exchanges that are legal in a country require users to provide KYC, so that each of our transactions will be recorded on the exchange. . we cannot continue to hide our identity and privacy if we are in the crypto world using a centralized exchange, if we want anonymity we have to use a decentralized or peer-to-peer exchange to transact crypto.

[Charles-Tim]

I think today's crypto world cannot maintain our anonymity and privacy

It depends on you.

There can be certain part of you that will deal with noncustododial exchanges, noncustododial wallets with coin control, address freeze, using different wallets (which can be of the same wallet name) for addresses not to be linked, and Tor relay circute changing or best running full node and try all best to maintain and retain privacy or anonymity by also making use of coinjoin and mixers.

Also there can be other part of you that make use of centralized services and making sure your decentralized part is not linked to centralized part. No 100% privacy or anonymity but the part you choose for it can be very possible and effective.

[DewiKirana]

I agree with you, when I want privacy and anonymity but I still exchange coins on Binance or Luno, at the same time I lose that privacy and anonymity because when I register on one of these exchanges, I have to KYC.
So if we want privacy and anonymity, it's best not to buy goods or exchange coins, as these can be tracked.