Privacy vs. anonymity

[DaveF]

So I was thinking. There seems to be constant struggle for 'bitcoin privacy' but is it privacy we want or anonymity or both?
For me for a lot of things I do privacy is just not going to happen. I am US based, use regulated exchanges, and am part of a signature campaign that has a public spreadsheet.

I am also not anonymous since I have met at least 5 or 6 people from here, more have one of my phone numbers and dozens more had my old work address from when I bough stuff.

In the 'real world' people keep talking what privacy & anonymity really are. But isn't it more perceived privacy & anonymity.

Lets think about it. If I had not met anyone, never bought or sold anything here, only connected though a VPN so even the staff here had no idea who or where I was, in theory I was just a name here on the board. That would be anonymous.

But would it be private? That gets a little more deep and I guess depends on your view.
 
If I took the BTC from the signature campaign (chipmixer) and sent it to an exchange that just required an email address and converted it to a cryptonight coin then withdrew it to my wallet, sent it to another wallet and then to another exchange that once again just required an email address I think we can all say that the ability to trace anything at that point would probably be impossible. Now I have my private BTC. What do I do with it? The second I buy anything that requires shipping well there goes privacy. Yes you can drop ship someplace but unless you go to the 'we don't ask' mailbox location there is still a trace. OK, lets not buy stuff that needs to be shipped. How about gift cards from bitrefill or coinsbee? Well if you get a chipolte card get a burrito with it, they know something about you and where you got your gift card and where you used it. And so on.

With many of the users here, looking at this post and screaming and pulling their hair going 'What is wrong with Dave?" I will admit here and now that my privacy &  anonymity are gone and are not coming back unless I do a total drop off and reboot of my online life. That's not gonna happen.

But what about you? Do you care more about privacy or anonymity or both equally? And how much will you be willing to deal with to maintain it. And, if you really really really stepped far back and took a look with a critical eye, how much did you mess up over time that may of comprised it?

Just something to think about.

-Dave 

[nelson4lov]

I'd like to admit that when I first got started with crypto, I was big on the whole privacy and anonymity thing but over time, I think that took another direction. I mean, I've a couple of jobs that required me to do a video call with people and a couple of other thing that revealed a thing or two about me. I think many people got into crypto for privacy but everything changes at some point. I know those people that were big on privacy projects have, at some point,compromised themselves too.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'll leave uncommented the above nonsensical and senseless post above me and focus on Dave's question.

But what about you? Do you care more about privacy or anonymity or both equally?

I'll speak for privacy since I consider it a more significant right than anonymity. I do, but I can't explain why I'm annoyed by the uncontrollable way some corporations keep sending me the next cleanser which kills 101% of the bacteria. I just feel, you know... not free?

Isn't privacy required to preserve democracy? We saw what happened with Trump and Facebook few years ago. That's surely something to be annoyed with. Anyway, there's no privacy in the internet nowadays, truth be told. That's not a reason to give it up, though. Do your best and hide your activity as much as you can from those corporations and surveillance agencies.

Do it and enjoy the few squares of your privacy that're left.

[o48o]

Anonymity is a pipe dream imho, i mean best we have not is pseudonymity anyway. Privacy on the other hand is something that big players want. They want it so bots can't front run their buys/sells, and they want it because it sells, way more then transparent transactions on the chain

[Upgrade00]

Now I have my private BTC. What do I do with it?

If you already have your private BTC, then any trace made cannot be linked to your forum Identity (Dave), You can use a mixer between transactions to make them untraceable. I can see how making a purchase at this point could affect your privacy as you'll very likely have to reveal some sort of identity to claim your purchase.

You could possibly use a non KYC exchange, convert your BTC to fiat, withdraw cash and spend that as a was to conserve your privacy.I believe the idea is not to be a total masked man or woman on the internet, but to reduce to a minimum the amount of public exposure you have.

[Charles-Tim]

Now I have my private BTC. What do I do with it?

You could possibly use a non KYC exchange, convert your BTC to fiat, withdraw cash and spend that as a was to conserve your privacy.

I doubt US citizens will be able to do that except he uses decentralized exchange or P2P means.

[Sterbens]

Mr. @DaveF you are right, maybe it feels like we or I personally are not sure that my privacy is being maintained until this moment. With so many interactions and various exchanges with various policies, we never escape our true identity. However, as long as our identity in Bitcoin transactions is not detected being used to commit crimes, maybe we are still lucky so far. Out there KYC actions that open privacy and all submitted data have almost repeatedly indicated criminal acts of data theft.

[michellee]

I think all of us know the answer, whether we only think about anonymity or privacy or even both. We should realize that when we have bitcoin and want to cash out that bitcoin, we need exchange which some of them need us to verify ourselves. We, as crypto users, have options, whether we want to use DEX or CEX and we can decide which exchange can give a comfortable feeling because once we can get that feeling, we will be willing to do anything just to fills what we want.

I think it is no problem if we want to use CEX and do KYC, as long as we know the company and they are listed on the regulatory office and can not do something that can put their customer in danger.

I never try to use gift cards or something like that because I always sell my bitcoin in the exchange but I use the other services to send the money to my bank account. In this growing technology, we can find other help to solve our problem, which will depend on how we can do that.

In "real life," people just talk about privacy & anonymity. Still, they do not realize what it is and they break their own anonymity and privacy coincidentally in the other chance.

[Darker45]

I have neither been meticulously private nor anonymous all my life. It seemed I had nothing or my life is not that big of a deal to be kept private or anonymous. I am just one ordinary person, after all. In a way, my life has always been an open book.

It's just in the past decade or so when I became more and more immersed in the online world that I decided to keep my personal information to myself as much as possible. The online world is much more dangerous than the real world in terms of personal information. There's just too many predators online. Somebody could create a verified account in whatever site with your information without your knowing it. It only takes a single instance of providing your email address or your mobile number before you will be bombarded with all kinds of ads and promotions and notifications and even calls.

I couldn't handle all the hassles that's why I decided to somehow protect what little privacy and anonymity I have left.

[Poker Player]

Can't wait to see what o_e_l_e_o has to say on this matter.

Interesting. In my case, I do not aspire to anonymity. I think it's a matter of balance and being a bit cautious to achieve a high degree of privacy. That it is not a thing easily ascertainable if you have Bitcoin and how much you have, especially for criminals.

In the case of absolute anonymity, moreover, I think that whoever gets it will surely be in illegality, because it is incompatible absolute anonymity and paying taxes to your government for the transactions in Bitcoin you do.

[Wexnident]

Hmmm, I'd reckon I'd choose Privacy over anonymity in this case? I don't particularly mind that people know I use BTC really, I'm more concerned about the fact that they could know what I've bought with the BTC I have or well, wherever I actually used it. It's not really that big of a problem since I'm not doing anything wrong but hey, who the hell likes it when everyone knows what you do right? I'd reckon no one does unless you're a show-off.

Though honestly, I think Privacy was thrown out the window ever since I started using the internet and doing KYC stuff all over the place. Though it's mostly because it's a bloody requirement, I've never been one to show off my personal life even on social media after all.

[SFR10]

How about gift cards from bitrefill or coinsbee? Well if you get a chipolte card get a burrito with it, they know something about you and where you got your gift card and where you used it. And so on.

Assuming that you're talking about the government, then you still have to rely on each of their suppliers reporting back to the government... Without those information, it'll be extremely hard to trace those back to you and find out where you got those gift cards from.

• Let's assume for a second that all of their suppliers report to the government ^{[it still depends on the type of information that they'd give]}:
  • The government in question should still probe both of the above platforms and in most cases, they're not going to that "unless there's a reason for it".
    ^{- There's nothing to worry about if you stay within the limits [unless I missed something].}
    
    

    Bitrefill will not ordinarily share Customer personal data unless required to do so by an appropriate legal instrument (e.g. a subpoena, a warrant or the legal equivalent in the issuing country). Exceptional circumstances (such as a very urgent request that may save a human life, or avoid great harm) may determine a different reaction from our side, but only to the extent permitted by law.

But what about you? Do you care more about privacy or anonymity or both equally?

I only care about protecting my privacy, but as you already know, it's easier said than done!

And how much will you be willing to deal with to maintain it.

Unfortunately, not enough ^{[e.g. convenience]}... I do know it may sound contradictory, but that's the reality.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Can't wait to see what o_e_l_e_o has to say on this matter.

Thanks for the notification - I might have missed this thread otherwise.

Some general thoughts first. I think most people know that I take my privacy very seriously, far more so than most, even though I am not doing, not have I ever done, anything illegal with bitcoin. I reject governments, Facebook, Google, exchanges, marketing agencies, and who knows what other third parties spying on me. They have no right and no requirement to do so, and mass surveillance will inevitably affect the way you live your life. I'll leave one of my favorite quotes regarding privacy at the bottom of this post.

Having said all that, it is nearly impossible to use the internet anonymously, especially if you are cultivating a continued online presence such as a user on a forum such as this one, and doubly so if you are trading, buying, or selling anything. There are people and businesses out there who know I use bitcoin. I have bought things online with bitcoin giving my real name and address for shipping, and I have traded with people peer to peer with bitcoin, attaching my real name to the fiat transfer method we chose. The way to keep your privacy in such scenarios is by disconnecting different parts of your life or online presence. For example, no one who knows my real identity knows I use this forum, and vice versa.

Lets think about it. If I had not met anyone, never bought or sold anything here, only connected though a VPN so even the staff here had no idea who or where I was, in theory I was just a name here on the board. That would be anonymous.

But would it be private? That gets a little more deep and I guess depends on your view.

So my presence on this forum is pretty close to anonymous. I've never met anyone, never given out any identifiable information, never connected from an IP address linked to me, etc. But I receive coins to bitcoin addresses linked to this account, which I will obviously want to be able to spend. So I mix and coinjoin and swap for Monero and swap back and various other things. Now I spend these coins on goods and services, I trade them peer to peer, I buy things online to be shipped to my house, I spend them in person letting people see my face, and so on. I am absolutely not anonymous doing any of these things. But I still maintain good privacy, because no one on this forum knows how or where I spend my coins, and the people I'm spending my coins with can't see my entire bitcoin holdings or where else I am spending my coins. I don't have a centralized exchange or payment processor demanding my KYC and monitoring all my transactions.

I know that I am an outlier when it comes to this stuff though. Most people have completed KYC on at least one exchange. Most people use Google or Facebook products. Most people don't use Tor. It is convenient to do these things. The cost of maintaining your privacy is inconvenience, but I firmly believe it is worth it.

The old cliché is often mocked though basically true: there’s no reason to worry about surveillance if you have nothing to hide. That mindset creates the incentive to be as compliant and inconspicuous as possible: those who think that way decide it’s in their best interests to provide authorities with as little reason as possible to care about them. That’s accomplished by never stepping out of line. Those willing to live their lives that way will be indifferent to the loss of privacy because they feel that they lose nothing from it. Above all else, that’s what a Surveillance State does: it breeds fear of doing anything out of the ordinary by creating a class of meek citizens who know they are being constantly watched.

[BlackHatCoiner]

They want it so bots can't front run their buys/sells, and they want it because it sells, way more then transparent transactions on the chain

That's an interesting point of view. Indeed, centralized exchanges have this downside in which they know when you want to sell or buy. They can approach what the majority wants and take advantage of it. They don't just hold your coins; they hold your interests.

I don't trade, but if I ever want to buy a cryptocurrency, I'll use a decentralized exchange instead. I highly doubt the majority will do either, but at least I'll feel alright with myself.

[...]

Excellent writeup!

[fiulpro]

There are people who go to great lengths to increase their privacy, for example:
1. Using a new address everytime.
2. Using Bitcoin mixing services.
3. Some super rich people using virgin coins.
Etc.
But at the end of the day it's not practically possible for someone who is regularly involved on the forum perse. You cannot ask every now and then to change your address, plus it's blockchain we are talking about, your whole data is stored and can be viewed by anyone, therefore anyone who might wanna pry, can copy your address and look for the transactions.
Therefore I do believe you did rightly say how it's not just hard but impossible to achieve privacy for most cases. But about being anonymous, I do think that is achievable. But then again when you are supposed to submit your ID, documents, address proof for most exchanges and wallets connected to your bank account, would that be a correct statement?? Aren't we all already being tracked by the government?? Centralized exchanges are taking away that part of anonymity but then again, they are important and sometimes the only option as well in many regions. Therefore bitcoins can be decentralized and anonymous in theory but more it's getting big, the more it's being legalized, the more laws are being created and that centralization is affecting the practical approach to that matter.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You cannot ask every now and then to change your address

Yes you can.

plus it's blockchain we are talking about, your whole data is stored and can be viewed by anyone, therefore anyone who might wanna pry, can copy your address and look for the transactions.

And if all they see is every output going straight in to a coinjoin or a mixer, then the trail stops there.

But then again when you are supposed to submit your ID, documents, address proof for most exchanges and wallets connected to your bank account, would that be a correct statement??

Then don't use services which require KYC. It's more inconvenient, sure, but it is not impossible by any means. (As an aside, no one should ever use a wallet which demands KYC.)

Aren't we all already being tracked by the government??

I'm sure they are trying, but their success depends on how much information you give them.

[The Cryptovator]

First of all, since I am using a centralized cryptocurrency exchange means my anonymity and privacy have been gone. To the exchange, I am not anonymous at all and since I am not using mixer means all the funds I am earning from signature or from anywhere sending to the exchange. Because without exchange I am not able to cash out. Again, even I do not use centralized exchange and intend to sell my Bitcoin then I have to sell in the local market and it is quite impossible to stay anonymous. When I will sell on the local market then the Fiat will be transferred on account or mobile banking. So basically I can't stay anonymous, but yes we can try to reduce privacy issues. For example, funds coming from where, how much I have the balance we can prevent that. But we need to spend more extra fees and time as well.

[dupee419]

Being anonymous sometimes is actually needed, not because we do suspicious things but because the platform itself demands us to be anonymous, and leaking your real identity on a place like this can really mess things up, it's very risky and it makes you alone prone on getting hacked or even have these hackers trace your wallets, or even rob you. Privacy on the other hand is much more essential, you need to protect your data or else you'll have a bunch of strangers reaching you out on social medai platforms.

This is actually a great comparison between anonymity and privacy, both seems to be interconnected in my opinon, in this forum, if the real identity is discovered, you're basically not anonymous anymore and there goes your privacy as well since strangers can easily track you just by your name, both being anonymous and your personal data can be compromised just because of your identity IRL.

[LeGaulois]

There are some points people don't get it.

There is information you agree to share and there is information you really want private. Privacy is not only about your name, address, IP,... (Data mining can teach you a lot of things.)
Since we all have different lifestyles, we have different expectations
 

You may find it acceptable to give out your phone number or address if you're supposed to receive an item. The delivery man needs your address of course. If you don't find it acceptable then go out yourself and go to the shop to buy it, or use deliveries boxes, etc...
On the other side, you may refuse to give your phone numbers to some persons ( a very ugly woman for example).

Since a lot of people use Youtube... You may find it acceptable to be "tracked" if you want to receive tailored recommendations. Do you know what I mean? The videos on the right or on the homepage. By the way, even when you watch TV and your national channels you're tracked. Surprised? You shouldn't, it's old

There are some things you absolutely don't want to be private or anonymous.
Who is interested to be anonymous with his insurance car How will they refund you if it was possible? Oh, we have to replace the car of Mr X but we don't know who's he...

There is information you agree that your wife is aware of and the one you don't want at any cost.

People criticize centralized exchanges (including me) but yet they use banks LOL. Do you see the irony? I don't even remember the last time I used a CEX but I can tell you since I stopped I'm feeling much better. I do some trades on a decentralized P2P plateform (and a real one, I mean not a hybrid like Binance or Localbitcoin) Yes I do need to send my personal information, but like I said there is information you agree to share and others not. The funny thing is I feel safer sending my information to a stranger on Bisq than knowing my information is stored on a company server that can be hacked at any time.

We have an alternative for almost anything to stay private but let's be honest. We are either lazy or don't find the alternatives efficient.

I remember someone saying something like:
Decades ago, we were ready to pay a high amount to get information public. Nowadays, we are ready to pay a high amount to get information private

(great topic by the way, hopefully it stays clean)

[o_e_l_e_o]

People criticize centralized exchanges (including me) but yet they use banks LOL. Do you see the irony?

Sometimes we have to compromise. I have a job which pays in fiat. I need that job to pay my mortgage and support my family. That job will not pay me in bitcoin nor in cash, and so I must have a bank account in order to live. If I could self host my own wallet and be paid directly in to it without any third parties as I can with bitcoin, then believe me I would. I have a mortgage, I have insurance, I have utility bills, etc., as does everyone. It is impossible to operate within modern society anonymously. If you want to be completely anonymous, then you have to go live in the woods and scavenge or grow your own food. A bank account is a necessary evil for working within the fiat system. If we ever reach a stage where I can be paid and pay all my bills from my own bitcoin wallet, then I'll be the first one to wave goodbye to my fiat bank.