64. Can the Transfer of the Inventor of the Puzzle Be Manipulated?

[Stroncow]

Note: Google Translate is used.

My computer has been searching for about a year, and I'm not hopeful.

However, today it occurred to me that the transfer of the person who finds the 64th puzzle may be cancelled.

In other words, after the transfer process starts, the public key will be revealed and thieves who do not deserve it will find the public key within minutes with Kangoroo. Then they will open a double trade with RBF by spending high, the transfer of the person who finds it will be cancelled.

It occurred to me that the thief would figure it out in about 3 minutes.

The average bitcoin transfer confirmation takes 10 minutes and can be canceled without 3 confirmations. (I could be wrong, please correct me.)

How can you get 3 confirmations in 5 minutes in Bitcoin transfer?

[1714128386]

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[PrimeNumber7]

In order to spend any bitcoin, you need the private key associated with the address.

It is not trivial to get the private key from the public key, in fact, there is no known way to calculate the private key from the public key. Quantum computing may change this, however, we are still a long way away from a Quantum Computer being able to get the private key from the public key.

[Stroncow]

In order to spend any bitcoin, you need the private key associated with the address.

It is not trivial to get the private key from the public key, in fact, there is no known way to calculate the private key from the public key. Quantum computing may change this, however, we are still a long way away from a Quantum Computer being able to get the private key from the public key.

It can decode 64 bit range with Kangoroo in a maximum of 5 minutes. In other words, the range and public key are certain, and it is clear in how many minutes it will be resolved. I would be glad if you look at it here.

[a.a]

Yeah probably possible. On the other hand, why would you listen for potentially few years on the nodes with ready to crack hardware to get 1.2 btc to make a potentially successful double spent attack?

[Stroncow]

Yeah probably possible. On the other hand, why would you listen for potentially few years on the nodes with ready to crack hardware to get 1.2 btc to make a potentially successful double spent attack?

if I find the 64th puzzle, I need to try the method that can handle the bitcoin transfer time in 5 minutes.

How much is paid for the transfer, confirmation can be obtained within 5 minutes?

[Rath_]

How much is paid for the transfer, confirmation can be obtained within 5 minutes?

Even though the average time between blocks is around 10 minutes, you can never be certain if your transaction will be mined within that timeframe. Sometimes, no block is found for 30-40 minutes. You can also get lucky and there might be a few blocks mined one after another in a short period of time. As for the fee, 1 sat/vbyte has been enough to get a transaction confirmed quickly for quite some time now. You should check mempool.space beforehand. It seems to have very accurate estimates.

[pooya87]

Then they will open a double trade with RBF by spending high, the transfer of the person who finds it will be cancelled.

That's what you get when solving "puzzles", there is always a risk of someone else solving it whether on their own or based on your solution. But if you don't want a transaction to be replaced easily then don't mark it with RBF! and pay the high priority fee.
Spending the same output of a transaction that wasn't marked by RBF would make it a double spend and majority of nodes won't relay the double spend transaction.

It occurred to me that the thief would figure it out in about 3 minutes.

Are you sure, 3 min doesn't sound right for 64-bit key.

The average bitcoin transfer confirmation takes 10 minutes and can be canceled without 3 confirmations. (I could be wrong, please correct me.)

How can you get 3 confirmations in 5 minutes in Bitcoin transfer?

You don't need 3 confirmations, 1 is enough. More is for protection against 51% attacks which can not happen in bitcoin due to the huge amount of money it requires.

[PrimeNumber7]

In order to spend any bitcoin, you need the private key associated with the address.

It is not trivial to get the private key from the public key, in fact, there is no known way to calculate the private key from the public key. Quantum computing may change this, however, we are still a long way away from a Quantum Computer being able to get the private key from the public key.

It can decode 64 bit range with Kangoroo in a maximum of 5 minutes. In other words, the range and public key are certain, and it is clear in how many minutes it will be resolved. I would be glad if you look at it here.

You must be referring to this puzzle. When I previously responded, it was unclear to me that you were not referring to a transaction whose inputs were not being spent by a private key that was generated with 160 bits of entropy. I am not sure your math is correct, but if it is:

If you were to solve one of these puzzles, you can firstly not enable RBF, so nodes should not accept a double-spend transaction by default. This should make it unlikely that a pool will even know about any competing transaction after someone learns of the private key based on the public key. Although someone could have an existing agreement with a miner to allow them to confirm competing/double-spend transactions.

You can avoid the above by contacting a miner directly and asking them to confirm your transaction without having the transaction previously broadcast publicly. There would still be the risk that the miner would calculate the private key and confirm a competing transaction themselves.

Other than the above, you can also obtain sufficient hash power in order to find a block on your own, and you can confirm the transaction without it being publicly broadcasted.

Yeah probably possible. On the other hand, why would you listen for potentially few years on the nodes with ready to crack hardware to get 1.2 btc to make a potentially successful double spent attack?

1.2 BTC is currently worth close to $75k. Someone could potentially create a program that listens for a transaction that spends one of a set of outputs, rents a VPS and GPUs on GCS, and executes a script that will find the private key, and create a competing transaction.

[WanderingPhilospher]

If you were to solve one of these puzzles, you can firstly not enable RBF, so nodes should not accept a double-spend transaction by default. This should make it unlikely that a pool will even know about any competing transaction after someone learns of the private key based on the public key. Although someone could have an existing agreement with a miner to allow them to confirm competing/double-spend transactions.

I do not know much about this but if people can have agreements with miners for double-spend transactions, that seems "sketchy".

1.2 BTC is currently worth close to $75k. Someone could potentially create a program that listens for a transaction that spends one of a set of outputs, rents a VPS and GPUs on GCS, and executes a script that will find the private key, and create a competing transaction.

Yeah, this would never happen. They could listen for that output, rent a VPS and GPUs...but they would have to rent 10,000 V100s for 14 hours to solve for the 1.2 BTC...I am sure by then, the transaction would be complete, plus, I am sure renting 10,000 V100s for 14 hours would exceed $75K.

[davidjjones]

My computer has been searching for about a year, and I'm not hopeful.

However, today it occurred to me that the transfer of the person who finds the 64th puzzle may be cancelled.

In other words, after the transfer process starts, the public key will be revealed and thieves who do not deserve it will find the public key within minutes with Kangoroo. Then they will open a double trade with RBF by spending high, the transfer of the person who finds it will be cancelled.

It occurred to me that the thief would figure it out in about 3 minutes.

The average bitcoin transfer confirmation takes 10 minutes and can be canceled without 3 confirmations. (I could be wrong, please correct me.)

How can you get 3 confirmations in 5 minutes in Bitcoin transfer?

First, you have to know that finding a private key with Kangaroo in range 8000000000000000 to FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF takes less than 10 seconds with a gpu like RTX 2080ti as I tested.
Replacing a tx in such a situation was also a question for me:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5361673.0

[Stroncow]

Then they will open a double trade with RBF by spending high, the transfer of the person who finds it will be cancelled.

That's what you get when solving "puzzles", there is always a risk of someone else solving it whether on their own or based on your solution. But if you don't want a transaction to be replaced easily then don't mark it with RBF! and pay the high priority fee.
Spending the same output of a transaction that wasn't marked by RBF would make it a double spend and majority of nodes won't relay the double spend transaction.

It occurred to me that the thief would figure it out in about 3 minutes.

Are you sure, 3 min doesn't sound right for 64-bit key.

The average bitcoin transfer confirmation takes 10 minutes and can be canceled without 3 confirmations. (I could be wrong, please correct me.)

How can you get 3 confirmations in 5 minutes in Bitcoin transfer?

You don't need 3 confirmations, 1 is enough. More is for protection against 51% attacks which can not happen in bitcoin due to the huge amount of money it requires.

Thank you, now I know 1 confirmation is enough.

[Stroncow]

In order to spend any bitcoin, you need the private key associated with the address.

It is not trivial to get the private key from the public key, in fact, there is no known way to calculate the private key from the public key. Quantum computing may change this, however, we are still a long way away from a Quantum Computer being able to get the private key from the public key.

It can decode 64 bit range with Kangoroo in a maximum of 5 minutes. In other words, the range and public key are certain, and it is clear in how many minutes it will be resolved. I would be glad if you look at it here.

You must be referring to this puzzle. When I previously responded, it was unclear to me that you were not referring to a transaction whose inputs were not being spent by a private key that was generated with 160 bits of entropy. I am not sure your math is correct, but if it is:

If you were to solve one of these puzzles, you can firstly not enable RBF, so nodes should not accept a double-spend transaction by default. This should make it unlikely that a pool will even know about any competing transaction after someone learns of the private key based on the public key. Although someone could have an existing agreement with a miner to allow them to confirm competing/double-spend transactions.

You can avoid the above by contacting a miner directly and asking them to confirm your transaction without having the transaction previously broadcast publicly. There would still be the risk that the miner would calculate the private key and confirm a competing transaction themselves.

Other than the above, you can also obtain sufficient hash power in order to find a block on your own, and you can confirm the transaction without it being publicly broadcasted.

Yeah probably possible. On the other hand, why would you listen for potentially few years on the nodes with ready to crack hardware to get 1.2 btc to make a potentially successful double spent attack?

1.2 BTC is currently worth close to $75k. Someone could potentially create a program that listens for a transaction that spends one of a set of outputs, rents a VPS and GPUs on GCS, and executes a script that will find the private key, and create a competing transaction.

There is no miner that I know of and I have no idea how the miner will manually confirm the transaction.

[Stroncow]

My computer has been searching for about a year, and I'm not hopeful.

However, today it occurred to me that the transfer of the person who finds the 64th puzzle may be cancelled.

In other words, after the transfer process starts, the public key will be revealed and thieves who do not deserve it will find the public key within minutes with Kangoroo. Then they will open a double trade with RBF by spending high, the transfer of the person who finds it will be cancelled.

It occurred to me that the thief would figure it out in about 3 minutes.

The average bitcoin transfer confirmation takes 10 minutes and can be canceled without 3 confirmations. (I could be wrong, please correct me.)

How can you get 3 confirmations in 5 minutes in Bitcoin transfer?

First, you have to know that finding a private key with Kangaroo in range 8000000000000000 to FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF takes less than 10 seconds with a gpu like RTX 2080ti as I tested.
Replacing a tx in such a situation was also a question for me:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5361673.0

Yes, I'm sure they'll find it in such a short time. They can create RBF in 1 minute in total. Do you have an idea as a solution to this?

[davidjjones]

Yes, I'm sure they'll find it in such a short time. They can create RBF in 1 minute in total. Do you have an idea as a solution to this?

Setting highest fee and CPFP fee bumping are the only techniques that you can use to increase your chance.

[Stroncow]

Yes, I'm sure they'll find it in such a short time. They can create RBF in 1 minute in total. Do you have an idea as a solution to this?

Setting highest fee and CPFP fee bumping are the only techniques that you can use to increase your chance.

RBF activation and deactivation option is available in Bitcoin Core.

If I transfer the private key to Bitcoin Core and disable the RBF option from there, will there be a definitive solution if I start the transfer process from there?

[davidjjones]

RBF activation and deactivation option is available in Bitcoin Core.

If I transfer the private key to Bitcoin Core and disable the RBF option from there, will there be a definitive solution if I start the transfer process from there?

There is no guarantee for such transaction that private key will be leaked in less than a minute but you have to disable RBF, set highest fee and pray to God that the tx will be confirmed before any attack.
You haven't found the private key yet, so what are you worried about !?

[Stroncow]

RBF activation and deactivation option is available in Bitcoin Core.

If I transfer the private key to Bitcoin Core and disable the RBF option from there, will there be a definitive solution if I start the transfer process from there?

There is no guarantee for such transaction that private key will be leaked in less than a minute but you have to disable RBF, set highest fee and pray to God that the tx will be confirmed before any attack.
You haven't found the private key yet, so what are you worried about !?

This thread broke my motivation to keep searching. I'm thinking of pausing the search if there isn't any definitive solution.

[davidjjones]

This thread broke my motivation to keep searching. I'm thinking of pausing the search if there isn't any definitive solution.

The attackers are unlikely to succeed if you make a transaction with the highest fee and non-RBF.
But if you feel you're wasting time and money on the puzzle 64 just ignore it! and focus on the puzzle 120 which you are more likely to find and there is almost no risk of attacking for it.

[BlackHatCoiner]

That's a good question. I guess that there would be many competitors who'd one make a more generous offer to the miners than the other. They could reach paying half the reward to the miner, just to ensure that their transaction will become valid and not the others'.

And I have a feeling there are machines watching the mempool for these keys.

But if you feel you're wasting time and money on the puzzle 64 just ignore it! and focus on the puzzle 120 which you are more likely to find and there is almost no risk of attacking for it.

Or even better: Do something productive and stop searching for tricky ways to become richer, which are highly unlikely to succeed while they're costing you much of your time!

[pooya87]

~
Or even better: Do something productive and stop searching for tricky ways to become richer, which are highly unlikely to succeed while they're costing you much of your time!

Good point. I wonder if anyone has ever done some calculations to see how much money were wasted searching for solutions to this puzzle in total and how much money they could have earned if they mined some cryptocurrency (there are CPU/GPU mineable altcoins).