To Escrow or Not to Escrow?

[sweeteye]

Hey y'all,
Hope you can get something from this. Below is correspondence with a newbie user from an auction purchase that has gone away for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was a major fault of my own for even bidding in the first place. I've redacted names and addresses and amounts because I do not have the PROOF to back up that this was a scam, or attempted scam, or anything more than inexperience from the seller, but rather a hunch and circumstances. My first clue should have been that the member refused to take escrow -- sure, I think I get it, homie wants his money quickly. That said, to switch an address on me from the OP was a big red flag and the fact that this seller hasn't responded to my last correspondence (posted below) and that thread has been locked, tells me pretty much everything I need to know about doing business with this *user - meaning this username at this time.

I feel pretty lucky right now and wish everyone here the best of luck with their awesome collectibles hobby. Be careful out there! Kind regards, sweeteye

*****Leaving this here for transperancy:

Re: BTC Auction winning bid
« Sent to: [username REDACTED] on: 2021-11-03, 22:52:08 »
   Reply with quoteQuote ReplyReply Remove this messageDelete
Quote from: [username REDACTED] on 2021-11-03, 22:18:21
Congrats on the winning bid, I am glad I was able to reply to you in time to bid.  Please send [amount REDACTED] (0.001. is for shipping) to the following address:
[legacy address REDACTED]

Please provide me with the name and address where you would like your coin shipped to and it will be in the mail the following business day.
I will send you tracking information and photos of your coin and packaging as well.

Thanks again! I will look out for your payment and shipping info.


     *****My response (after request for confirmation of users segwit address different from legacy address that was listed in auction OP):

Hey, I'm struggling with a couple of things here. Have had recent scam attempt on this site, so I'm obviously on the defensive:
1) Changing your address from what's in the OP is a huge red flag to me
2) Shipping in US is $40 with $5000 USD insurance according to OP - you're charging me .001 or $60'ish and you haven't asked where I live
3) While your explanation when asked about escrow is, "I have a sold coins in the past this way and many others do as well." Just as many use escrow, especially with newbie accounts
4) "Feel free to check my other auctions." I see that you've had feedback for two auctions almost 6 months ago -

I admit I should have dug deeper before making a bid, but this auction wasn't on my radar until you bumped it and I acted hastily despite you giving fair warning that you would not accept escrow - that's on me.

Bottom line is this just doesn't feel right, so here's my offer: Escrow through [escrower REDACTED] or [escrower REDACTED] at my expense for the [amount REDACTED] + accurate shipping, or, offer this back to the next highest bidder (at [amount REDACTED]) and I will make up the [amount REDACTED] difference at my expense.

This is the best I'm able to do.

Cordially, sweeteye


     *****And while posting, this just came in:

Hi,

I was just reaching out to see if you had any questions about payment/shipping?  After 24 hours I will be relisting the coin if I have not heard from you.
Please let me know if there is something I can help with.

Thanks again,
[name REDACTED]

Dude, I'm afraid there's some fuckery going on and our security has been compromised.
Only way I can make this happen now is through escrow.
Let me know your thoughts

sweeteye

     *****And then this to my response:

User [username REDACTED] has blocked your personal message.

     *****Evidently no intent to work this out. That's the story, hope this helps someone. Addendum:

Hi,

I hate to say, but I may have been hacked.  DO NOT send any money to any address other than in the auction. Another person on here was scammed by someone with my account info...

The address from the auction and my previious auctions is the correct address. NO OTHER ADDRESS IS CORRECT. Only send payment to the auction address no other.

[name REDACTED]

Yeah, there's some fuckery going on here.
Pencils down on this.
It's escrow only for me.

sweeteye


     *****And when I try to send:

Send report
User [username REDACTED] has blocked your personal message.

[1714110311]

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[OgNasty]

Without seeing the names it's difficult to tell if this is a man-in-the-middle scam attempt, or if you're really dealing with a questionable seller.  Either way, escrow is advised, especially if it is a $5,000 purchase (for smaller purchases it makes more sense to deal direct).  I've saved countless members here from losing funds with my escrow service, and they've all been quite thankful to lose only their escrow gift in the process (although the scammers aren't as happy to lose out and spend their lives trying to punish me through their real accounts).

So at first glance I'd say it sounds like someone is trying to pull a MITM scam on you, and you should verify that the account you're receiving PMs from is the account that was offering the sale and not a look-alike.  The change of address is a pretty good sign that it isn't the same user.  Either way, don't send a stranger thousands of dollars in non-reversible currency, especially if their reputation isn't worth that much.

[MoparMiningLLC]

always escrow - if you trust the other person and have multiple deals with them, maybe you can skip it but even then, escrow to be safe. there are several of us here that do escrow and have done escrow many times so it is proven we are not going to scam/con anyone. The fee's are not that much when you consider peace of mind.

[minerjones]

Yes, have had at least 4 PMs from hacked accounts of collectors that ask for assistance and then am unable to reply / blocked
Seems to be targeted at newbie accounts with weak passwords

[sweeteye]

For anyone following this drama, I still can't respond to the seller because I'm blocked, so am posting here with the hopes he sees my response and we can make the deal work and this has a happy ending with valuable lessons learned. I got burned a little bit similarly a couple of weeks ago with what OGN refers to as the MITM scam, I fortunately sent coin to the address in the OP, but immediately after doing so got an email from seller's "mobile account" with a different address because the old one was *n.g. I replied to the mobile account that I'd already sent payment and the response from the mobile account was, "Oh, that's too bad, but I'll honor our deal and send the items out... But could you kick in a few extra SATS so I don't have to eat shipping?" No, shit -- all of this unbeknownst to the legit seller that had no clue this was going on until I started forwarding him the messages. Happy ending is that seller got his SATS, I got my goods, and I only got scammed for some shipping (plus a little extra because I felt bad for the dude before I knew he was scamming me). Scams are sometimes predicated on greed but always on trust -- as a collector I'm not above greed for sure, and as a member of this community I want to give the good people here the benefit of the doubt. That said, there are an increasing number of bad actors in our space and my motto after this is a version of "verify don't trust" which includes escrow when you can't verify. Anyone not open to escrow without solid trust and merit is probably not worth doing business with here. Also, want to thank the members of the community who have checked in with me and helped slueth this - that's what makes us the best community on this forum and why we will defeat scammers who think they can fuck with us.  *Seller gets the benefit of the doubt here for now, is currently open to escrow, has since changed his password and is working with admins if below is actually from seller smh. We'll see:

Hi,

I wanted to message you again as I mentioned before, I was hacked.  I apologize for this but it was out of my control. 

Another member messaged me saying they made payment and I was watching while my inbox messages were being deleted right in front of me.

I have contacted bitcointalk through their hacked account email and I have changed my password.  Many people unfortunately have been hacked here. I am not the first, I would never ask to change the wallet address.

I am selling my friends collection for him and he is not willing to use escrow, that is why I previously told you no escrow.  After today he has changed his mind completely. He is willing to use escrow, but we do not understand the steps escrow will take.

There was nothing I could have done to prevent this, but I have done everything I can to fix it. 

I know this is a long shot, but if you do want this coin still, we can do escrow.  I would just need to know the details on how that would work. Do I send the coin to the escrow person and then they mail it to you??

Also the shipping quote was an honest mistake. I used a btc to usd converter online and it must have rounded up. It showed 0.001. Sorry honest mistake. If you mentioned it to me I would have been glad to change the price no problem (I know the hacker was deleting my messages so maybe you did).

I again am sorry this did not work out, believe me I am doing damage control now. Tomorrow I am going to give the member who was scammed a free coin, just to try and make this right. And if people want to claim I am a scammer then hopefully he would be able to explain the truth. I was hacked, and even though he paid the wrong address, I gave him a coin anyway.

Sorry again for the issues but hackers/liars/thief's ruin everything for everyone.  As someone mentioned in your post about me, this was just like he described.

Please let me know if you would like the coin still. Escrow is not a problem.

Oh and if you are willing, I would love to see the messages you sent and received. Also bitcointalk can check the site activity and can see that the messages from the hacker came from a different IP address than my messages. Reach out to them and they should confirm that for you if you do not believe me.


Thanks,

 

If you're offering escrow we can do this, and I can help walk you through the steps. I was careful not to point the finger in my posting because obviously there is something going on in the community with bad actors and I don't want to *assume you're one of them. This is the second time that mid-transaction a fake address has disrupted a sale for me, so am once bitten, twice shy. I want the coin and as soon as our comms can be securely restored we should involve minerjones or MoparMiningLLC for escrow, I send them your payment, you send them my coin, they release payment when received and then ship to me, at my expense.

Note that I've tried responding to your earlier emails and am blocked, will see if this gets through. Happy to share previous messages once we've secured comms. Thanks for reaching out! sweeteye

Send report
User [REDACTED] has blocked your personal message. (LMFAO)

[sweeteye]

For anyone following this drama, I still can't respond to the seller because [edit] hacker has blocked all of his contacts, but he's working on unblocking them [edit] I'm blocked, so am posting here with the hopes he sees my response and we can make the deal work and this has a happy ending with valuable lessons learned. I got burned a little bit similarly a couple of weeks ago with what OGN refers to as the MITM scam, I fortunately sent coin to the address in the OP, but immediately after doing so got an email from seller's "mobile account" with a different address because the old one was *n.g. I replied to the mobile account that I'd already sent payment and the response from the mobile account was, "Oh, that's too bad, but I'll honor our deal and send the items out... But could you kick in a few extra SATS so I don't have to eat shipping?" No, shit -- all of this unbeknownst to the legit seller that had no clue this was going on until I started forwarding him the messages. Happy ending is that seller got his SATS, I got my goods, and I only got scammed for some shipping (plus a little extra because I felt bad for the dude before I knew he was scamming me). Scams are sometimes predicated on greed but always on trust -- as a collector I'm not above greed for sure, and as a member of this community I want to give the good people here the benefit of the doubt. That said, there are an increasing number of bad actors in our space and my motto after this is a version of "verify don't trust" which includes escrow when you can't verify. Anyone not open to escrow without solid trust and merit is probably not worth doing business with here. Also, want to thank the members of the community who have checked in with me and helped slueth this - that's what makes us the best community on this forum and why we will defeat scammers who think they can fuck with us.  *Seller gets the benefit of the doubt here for now, is currently open to escrow, has since changed his password and is working with admins if below is actually from seller smh. We'll see:

Hi,

I wanted to message you again as I mentioned before, I was hacked.  I apologize for this but it was out of my control.  

Another member messaged me saying they made payment and I was watching while my inbox messages were being deleted right in front of me.

I have contacted bitcointalk through their hacked account email and I have changed my password.  Many people unfortunately have been hacked here. I am not the first, I would never ask to change the wallet address.

I am selling my friends collection for him and he is not willing to use escrow, that is why I previously told you no escrow.  After today he has changed his mind completely. He is willing to use escrow, but we do not understand the steps escrow will take.

There was nothing I could have done to prevent this, but I have done everything I can to fix it.  

I know this is a long shot, but if you do want this coin still, we can do escrow.  I would just need to know the details on how that would work. Do I send the coin to the escrow person and then they mail it to you??

Also the shipping quote was an honest mistake. I used a btc to usd converter online and it must have rounded up. It showed 0.001. Sorry honest mistake. If you mentioned it to me I would have been glad to change the price no problem (I know the hacker was deleting my messages so maybe you did).

I again am sorry this did not work out, believe me I am doing damage control now. Tomorrow I am going to give the member who was scammed a free coin, just to try and make this right. And if people want to claim I am a scammer then hopefully he would be able to explain the truth. I was hacked, and even though he paid the wrong address, I gave him a coin anyway.

Sorry again for the issues but hackers/liars/thief's ruin everything for everyone.  As someone mentioned in your post about me, this was just like he described.

Please let me know if you would like the coin still. Escrow is not a problem.

Oh and if you are willing, I would love to see the messages you sent and received. Also bitcointalk can check the site activity and can see that the messages from the hacker came from a different IP address than my messages. Reach out to them and they should confirm that for you if you do not believe me.


Thanks,

 

If you're offering escrow we can do this, and I can help walk you through the steps. I was careful not to point the finger in my posting because obviously there is something going on in the community with bad actors and I don't want to *assume you're one of them. This is the second time that mid-transaction a fake address has disrupted a sale for me, so am once bitten, twice shy. I want the coin and as soon as our comms can be securely restored we should involve minerjones or MoparMiningLLC for escrow, I send them your payment, you send them my coin, they release payment when received and then ship to me, at my expense.

Note that I've tried responding to your earlier emails and am blocked, will see if this gets through. Happy to share previous messages once we've secured comms. Thanks for reaching out! sweeteye

Send report
User [REDACTED] has blocked your personal message. (LMFAO)

***UPDATE: Also, the other member referred to above, reached out to me after my first post and confirmed he sent the same amount as I would have for the transaction, and a longstanding member of the forum has vouched for the seller and confirms his user identity and email were hacked.

[sweeteye]

Here’s an update: Seller and I have made contact, he was hacked, .email settings changed and is in the process of restoring his account. We’re going to settle this tomorrow, but I don’t believe this seller had any malicious intentions and this was an unfortunate situation exacerbated by confusion and compromised communication. Will expect the best outcome possible for this and hope seller gets his account safely restored.
When in doubt, use escrow, friends! Sellers, accept that escrow is a part of doing business with the increasing value of our coins and other collectibles. Most of all, if it doesn’t feel right, it probably ain’t right. And don’t take anyone’s sensitivity around trust personal. Everybody has to take care of themselves and we can hopefully look out for each other and crush the MFing scammers, liars and thieves! sweeteye

[MoparMiningLLC]

I would note that in 2 cases I have seen so far, the parties that were "hacked" or "compromised" received DM's with a supposed link to a thread in the forums - when clicking it, they are prompted to log back into the forums however, the link is not to the forums but to another site which then captures their account info.

may need to make it aware to everyone - simply do not click links that are in dms - someone says they replied to your thread and gives a link - go to the thread the ol' fashioned way and dont use their link - or at least inspect the link to see where it really goes before blindly clicking it.

[kryme]

I would note that in 2 cases I have seen so far, the parties that were "hacked" or "compromised" received DM's with a supposed link to a thread in the forums - when clicking it, they are prompted to log back into the forums however, the link is not to the forums but to another site which then captures their account info.

may need to make it aware to everyone - simply do not click links that are in dms - someone says they replied to your thread and gives a link - go to the thread the ol' fashioned way and dont use their link - or at least inspect the link to see where it really goes before blindly clicking it.

I can't imagine people are this foolish to fall for fake links in 2021, especially being into Bitcoin and knowing how important security is. If Google isn't offering to enter my password for me then I know it's a website I've never been to before. Were they actually "hacked" or did they change their password via a VPN in an attempt to use their Trust to scam someone on a larger purchase and then use the "I was hacked excuse"? I guess if they "recovered" their account and accepted escrow then I don't see anything malicious. Moral of the story I guess, always use escrow no matter what.

[SFR10]

[legacy address REDACTED]
~Snipped~
*****My response (after request for confirmation of users segwit address different from legacy address that was listed in auction OP):

Small correction: I believe you meant to say the other way around since the seller in question, uses a "p2sh-segwit" address in his/her auctions.

The address from the auction and my previious auctions is the correct address. NO OTHER ADDRESS IS CORRECT. Only send payment to the auction address no other.

Also the shipping quote was an honest mistake. I used a btc to usd converter online and it must have rounded up. It showed 0.001. Sorry honest mistake.

I'm not buying that excuse! You've received that shipping quote on the exact same message that also had the questionable legacy address; in other words, that seller is a liar!

• Quote from: [username REDACTED] on 2021-11-03, 22:18:21
  Congrats on the winning bid, I am glad I was able to reply to you in time to bid.  Please send [amount REDACTED] (0.001. is for shipping) to the following address:
  [legacy address REDACTED]
  

Also bitcointalk can check the site activity and can see that the messages from the hacker came from a different IP address than my messages. Reach out to them and they should confirm that for you if you do not believe me.

All of us can easily & quickly change our IP addresses and pretend that we're someone else

he was hacked, .email settings changed

No, it didn't... When someone changes their email, you'll see a warning ^{["like this"]} on their trust summary page ^{[that's not the case with the seller in question (it only shows the password changes)]}.

In regards to password changes:

• The first password change happened after the last PM that you included in your first post.
• The second password change was an hour after the PM that you included in "this post".

When you connect the dots, it's quite clear that it's just a made-up story from a seller who has ulterior motives!
^{- Go to the "security log" page and use CTRL + F to search for his/her name.}

simply do not click links that are in dms - someone says they replied to your thread and gives a link - go to the thread the ol' fashioned way and dont use their link - or at least inspect the link to see where it really goes before blindly clicking it.

The following thread comes in handy: Green hover color for bitcointalk.org links

[Bitbuddy60]

Here’s an update: Seller and I have made contact, he was hacked, .email settings changed and is in the process of restoring his account. We’re going to settle this tomorrow, but I don’t believe this seller had any malicious intentions and this was an unfortunate situation exacerbated by confusion and compromised communication. Will expect the best outcome possible for this and hope seller gets his account safely restored.
When in doubt, use escrow, friends! Sellers, accept that escrow is a part of doing business with the increasing value of our coins and other collectibles. Most of all, if it doesn’t feel right, it probably ain’t right. And don’t take anyone’s sensitivity around trust personal. Everybody has to take care of themselves and we can hopefully look out for each other and crush the MFing scammers, liars and thieves! sweeteye

Was this for the CI .010, mevs.... got me