If your games aren't provably fair, stop claiming they are.

[mitchr4]

I don't know at all to check that. I just play based on their popularity with how they pay people to play there. But it is important to know how casino sites have "Probably Fair" even though we know the house always wins.
The big bonuses or promotions that casinos offer are usually a trap for people who don't care about the safety of their games.

[electronicash]

I don't know at all to check that. I just play based on their popularity with how they pay people to play there. But it is important to know how casino sites have "Probably Fair" even though we know the house always wins.
The big bonuses or promotions that casinos offer are usually a trap for people who don't care about the safety of their games.

not everyone will really check those RNG or the seed until they notice how much is lost from thier wallet. but basically, when you don't know what is happening behind the scene, you got to ask yourself whether the casino you are playing is being fair to you. 

you don't even know how you got to play but because people are suggesting. when they say super fair casino you may actually believe that but it's always marketing terms.

[Pmalek]

Only problem here is that not all players have the technical skills or are technical enough to know which casinos are genuine with their claims and which aren't.

I know, that's why threads like this one are important. There are also other resources on the world wide web that will teach you how to check whether a game really is provably fair or it isn't.

I see the provably fair as a motto on almost all crypto casinos.

That's why I said that it's a buzz word in my previous post. Don't trust what the casino says but verify it yourself. Or better yet, stick with proven platforms and don't be lured by the promises and bonuses that new sites will give you to get you to deposit into their accounts.

[Betabit.casino]

I've been running into sites using similar methods to implement what appears to be a provably fair way to determine outcomes which could be manipulated by casino owners without detection.  What makes them different from provably fair games that are actually provably fair is the use of a 'server secret' which is a predefined state of the game (order of cards, a number to be rolled, slot reel positions, etc.) which is then manipulated according to the hashed client + server seeds.  The problem is, the 'server secret' is generated without any transparency - completely behind the scenes.  

Video Poker Example:

- The order of the cards is determined behind the scenes, this is the 'server secret'.
- The client/server seed is hashed and used to determine which card will be dealt first. (cutting the deck).

The problem is, the possibility of a high paying hand is first determined during the initial shuffle.  For example, if the A and K of each suit have more than 10 cards between them - there will be no possibility for a Royal flush to be dealt.  

An example of slots from CryptoSlots.com (archive):

https://i.gyazo.com/96bd9686774aca746e67e6ad9c087b96.png

I think this is kind of a big deal and don't think Casinos should get away with promoting their games as provably fair when they aren't, it's bad for both players and casinos that are actually offering provably fair games.  The problem is, the average player just doesn't have a firm grasp of the provably fair concept.  They see 'seed' and 'hash' and just assume that that means it must be fair.

Anyway, I'm going to dig through my post history and make a list of all the sites I've come across that are currently doing this.  If anyone else comes across some that aren't on the list feel free to let me know and I'll update.  Maybe this belongs in scam accusations, I don't know.  I'm fine if it gets moved, but I'd prefer it stay here and the discussion revolves more around why certain methods that appear provably fair aren't.

Cryptoslots.com/Slotland.eu  (forum thread - they disappeared from the forum after I brought this up)
Slots: Sever Secret generates 9 outcomes, Server/Client hash determines which of the 9 outcomes is used.
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Source (archive)

Cryptsino.io (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)


Coins777.com (forum thread - owners response)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)

Betabit.casino (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Don't see an explanation on their site, you have to verify a bet to figure out how it works.  

I haven't checked the following casinos myself, but they all have the same verbatim terms that include "When you open the game page the server generates a secret and a seed and Reveals its hash" (Identicle to 3 of the casinos already on the list) .  I believe they all use the same script, which is for sale here. (Thank you to Bitinity for posting this in another thread)

Satoshicasino.io
bet42bet.com
zilflip.com
safemars.casino
bigplay.casino
cryptodicecasino.com
e-casino-games.com
cindskillgame.com
winrw.de
woowoocasino.com
cryptomegamillions.com
upcasino24.com
milliontoken.games
winning4good.com
zerocryptopoker.com
cgame88.com
cryptocazino.com
slpcasino.com
everestbet.io
moonjackcasino.com
win-star.co
cash10.io
kasinobtc.com
stakeafrica.com
siraca.com
playtoearn.casino
luckytoken.casino
nulled.to

Regarding the Author to this post: I cannot discuss other sites that you have mentioned in your post as I have not used them and am not associated with them in any way shape or form.

However regarding: www.betabit.casino which is the site that I operate. I can assure you that the provably fair system is sound and fully automated & functioning correctly and not a single player has complained about this. Nobody at the back end has any control over ANY of the games outcomes. It is also highlighted on the site that not all of the games are provably fair.

If there is indeed an issue with the particular game: video poker then I will indeed investigate further and if needed I will remove the game if there is an issue.

However unless you have actually deposited and played on my site - Libel Is A Criminal Offense - ruining websites credibility online without checking in full and making comments as such is a suable offense in a court of law. Please refrain from labelling my website unless you have had a genuine bad experience please. Be respectful.

You can follow the bitcoin talk forum for betabit.casino here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5365927.0

[stomachgrowls]

Only problem here is that not all players have the technical skills or are technical enough to know which casinos are genuine with their claims and which aren't.

I know, that's why threads like this one are important. There are also other resources on the world wide web that will teach you how to check whether a game really is provably fair or it isn't.

There are really people which couldnt really appreciate on what others been doing which is totally helpful on spreading out some awareness specially with fairness issue on some unknown or not so popular gambling sites which do claims on being fair.

They do have the ample or right time to spend on investigating or verifying things which we should be grateful at least on where
these information could save your ass up. 

[Danydee]

However unless you have actually deposited and played on my site - Libel Is A Criminal Offense - ruining websites credibility online without checking in full and making comments as such is a suable offense in a court of law. Please refrain from labelling my website unless you have had a genuine bad experience please. Be respectful.

You think he can't prove it ?! 

[TwitchySeal]

I have not used them and am not associated with them in any way shape or form.

Your flawed explanation of how your games are provably fair (even though they aren't) are word for word exact copies.  So either they copied your (flawed) explanation, you copied theirs, or everyone copied it from the guy selling the $50 gambling scripts that you're all using.

Look, here's your site:


Here are a couple others:

I can assure you that the provably fair system is sound and fully automated & functioning correctly and not a single player has complained about this.

No it's not.  

Look, in the first two sentence of the explanation you can see the issue:



The server is generating the shuffle.  You could put the cards in whatever order you want and the player would never know.

not a single player has complained about this.

This is a thread with many players complaining about sites doing exactly what you're doing. 

[Saint-loup]

Then if they only create poor outcomes for you each time, you will quickly see it and notice that the true RTP of the game is way lower than the expected one.

It could be done in a way that was basically impossible to prove, and even if you did suspect something and were correct, I would expect you would be treated similar to the way the all too frequent 'I lost too much, it's rigged, you scam site!' player is treated.

They could easily decide to make it impossible for half the Royal Flushes and half the four of a kinds to be dealt and that would change the house edge of their jacks or better game from ~1% to ~4.5%

It would take hundreds of thousands of hands to have evidence of anything suspicious and millions to make a confident accusation.


Just added 28 more casinos to the list.

Well I think with only "few" thousands of hands, you can already quite "confidently" check if the House Edge is of 1% or 4.5x times (4.5%) bigger than that in reality. But I agree with you, it could be quite easily way more transparent and trustworthy than that, if they would use an algorithm allowing a client seed for the randomization of the deck or an algorithm using an external and transparent source for the randomization process as suggested by Danydee.

[nakamura12]

That's why I said that it's a buzz word in my previous post. Don't trust what the casino says but verify it yourself. Or better yet, stick with proven platforms and don't be lured by the promises and bonuses that new sites will give you to get you to deposit into their accounts.

That's best way to avoid gambling in a site that you are not sure if it's provably fair or not. I would suggest what you said as it is much safer especially those who don't know how to verify it themselves. I find some threads that help how to verify gambling sites helpful so i agree that threads like this should be discussed when shared to those who don't know about it.

[NotATether]

Are there any caveats with using random.org within this process? Is there any provably fair that does not involve the traditional client-server seed combo?

Yes. Someone can intercept the connection to Random.org and hijack the domain to point to a fake copy that outputs tainted random numbers.

Hence why you should never rely on an external service for generating probably fair hashes.

[bekti3]

on the other hand don't they make casinos for business? of course they want profit.
regardless of fair or not according to visitors or players who play it is a thing that is standard because they set it up for business by wanting to get as much profit as possible.
when people say it's not fair they are the ones who should be questioned here.
nothing is perfectly fair on a business trip, regardless of how you position yourself if you already know that it's unfair why is it still being played.

[khaled0111]

Hence why you should never rely on an external service for generating probably fair hashes.

Exactly! There is no need to use a third party service when you can do it by yourself in a completely trustless way.
The casinos mentioned in OP can solve the problem and leave no room for doubt by simply changing their pf algorithm to make it use the hash of the server secret plus the client seed to shuffle the decks, instead of relying on the server secret alone.

[Danydee]

Hence why you should never rely on an external service for generating probably fair hashes.

Exactly! There is no need to use a third party service when you can do it by yourself in a completely trustless way.
The casinos mentioned in OP can solve the problem and leave no room for doubt by simply changing their pf algorithm to make it use the hash of the server secret plus the client seed to shuffle the decks, instead of relying on the server secret alone.

The question is how the player would be able the verify it,
that's don't give warranty for no manipulation, falsification

[FatFork]

The question is how the player would be able the verify it,
that's don't give warranty for no manipulation, falsification

In simple terms, using server and client seeds and hash functions. There are numerous topics already about provably fair random number generators. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

[Haunebu]

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me.

Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

[Fritwakky]

I'm not an expert on the technical side of this problem,but I agree with your statement.
Casino owners must not lie to their customers.Being honest to your clients is a very important part of doing business.This applies to every business,not just the gambling business.
On the other hand,the people should be skeptical about all casinos and they should just play for fun and bet small amounts of crypto.Gambling with the assumption that you will make money and betting big amounts of crypto in slots/dice/hi lo games is a recipe for disaster.
At the end of the day,the casino always wins.It doesn't matter if the games are "probably fair" or rigged.

In gambling they say "Winner is the one who knows when to stop". If you go through list of gamblers majority of them are losers (correct me if I am wrong). We know that all gambling platforms are manipulated by owners for there increase profits, there is very little money left for the gamblers. I do agree with you that one must do gambling for entertainment only and that too with small money.

[Danydee]

The question is how the player would be able the verify it,
that's don't give warranty for no manipulation, falsification

In simple terms, using server and client seeds and hash functions. There are numerous topics already about provably fair random number generators. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 What can certify the seeds generated are randomly done, I think of when they know the seed you set (on your side) by leaking in example, they can generate a seed to get the exact result they want

 A simple way to prevent such manipulations is using a little add-on that hash and sign the seed you put, so it can sign the operation with never transmitting you seed/ or key

In gambling they say "Winner is the one who knows when to stop". If you go through list of gamblers majority of them are losers (correct me if I am wrong). We know that all gambling platforms are manipulated by owners for there increase profits, there is very little money left for the gamblers. I do agree with you that one must do gambling for entertainment only and that too with small money.

 Even without manipulation, gambling platforms are always winning, that's what is called the (house edge), a percentage cut from the probabilities of events occurring..
 For example in a game where is there 10 possibilities, the casino don't reward a 10x but 9x instead
 So in the long run the casino is always winner and do profit

[khaled0111]

What can certify the seeds generated are randomly done, I think of when they know the seed you set (on your side) by leaking in example, they can generate a seed to get the exact result they want

How the server seed is being generated (randomly or not) doesn't really matter. What matters is that it must be generated before the client provides his seed and that it doesn't change till the session ends.
The server seed is the one that must be kept secret and only its hash must be revealed not the client seed.

[Danydee]

What can certify the seeds generated are randomly done, I think of when they know the seed you set (on your side) by leaking in example, they can generate a seed to get the exact result they want

How the server seed is being generated (randomly or not) doesn't really matter. What matters is that it must be generated before the client provides his seed and that it doesn't change till the session ends.
The server seed is the one that must be kept secret and only its hash must be revealed not the client seed.

I know,
 But see in case you playing in auto-mode for example, the house can easily manipulate the results to make you lose.. It is easy to detect what mode player is setting


 So without implementing a browser add-on for example that put new seed on every bet, (and save all the proofs data) you can't be sure of anything in such play !

[Johnyz]

What can certify the seeds generated are randomly done, I think of when they know the seed you set (on your side) by leaking in example, they can generate a seed to get the exact result they want

How the server seed is being generated (randomly or not) doesn't really matter. What matters is that it must be generated before the client provides his seed and that it doesn't change till the session ends.
The server seed is the one that must be kept secret and only its hash must be revealed not the client seed.

The house has the control over this, they set up the system but with regards to the seeds it generated randomly. If the site is not fair enough and can’t be trust, there’s no more reason for you to stay on that site better to have the other option and start looking for alternatives. Honestly, I don’t know how to compute for fairness so to be more safe, I always choose the best site because someone will confirm the fairness and that could be you basis as well.