If your games aren't provably fair, stop claiming they are.

[Shagnasty]

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me. Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

[StLucifer]

That's best way to avoid gambling in a site that you are not sure if it's provably fair or not. I would suggest what you said as it is much safer especially those who don't know how to verify it themselves. I find some threads that help how to verify gambling sites helpful so i agree that threads like this should be discussed when shared to those who don't know about it.

[delfastTions]

The problem is most of the gambler don't know or lazy to verify if the casino is really probably fair. The thread you share is very helpful and this is the first time to know that. Typically gamblers just trust the casino based on its reputation and not because of it's probably fair system.Using the word "Probably Fair" in the website details is a must for all casino since that's the only players need to know so that they can trust it. So we can't imply it to shady casino or casino that not using it since that is a norm on online casino business..

I think that in general, rarely any of the players will thoroughly understand the algorithms of provable fairness of the game.  It is difficult and you need to have the appropriate mindset and knowledge that most players do not have.  But I must note that here in BTT "gambling" section it is quite possible to find out how honestly certain casinos work.  It is enough to read a few pages of the relevant topics and you will definitely begin to understand if there are any claims.  And how serious and numerous they are.  For an initial study of the question of casino fairness, I think this will be enough.  After that, you can already read all the reviews on other forums, or even figure out the algorithm, if knowledge allows you to do this.

[famososMuertos]

At least in traditional games there are alternatives to finding casinos that are not cheating and that offer the game probably fair, but in PvP poker games the alternatives are limited and rng predominates.

[michellee]

Before people play in the casino, they need to search by themselves and not depend on others' opinions so they can prevent the bad things that can come to them. Related to provably fair or not, we need to search by ourselves or do not have to think much about that because we assume that they will not cheat us. If we can play on the casino that has reputations, I think they will not try to do that thing because if their members find they are not fair, they can leave them. In this way, we really need to be careful playing gambling because the responsibilities will be on ourselves.

[noormcs5]

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me. Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

Many people including me never thought of this aspect of the gambling sites. I wonder how much money these sites make by not truly implementing the provably fair and taking advantage of the ignorance of the gamblers 

[Danydee]

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me. Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

Many people including me never thought of this aspect of the gambling sites. I wonder how much money these sites make by not truly implementing the provably fair and taking advantage of the ignorance of the gamblers  

Yep, cheating is an integral part of the gambling world,
it has been there since the very beginnings !

[Fesatmas]

At least in traditional games there are alternatives to finding casinos that are not cheating and that offer the game probably fair, but in PvP poker games the alternatives are limited and rng predominates.

Now because most online based gambling dominates and is not difficult to find, then don't expect it to be completely fair. Casinos also need the profits they build in running their business. If we talk about traditional gambling, we can still talk about when there is a fraud that can be corrected directly. As for now, we only rely on casino ratings that have a fairness level of above 85%.

[DaveF]

What I don't get, and it might just be me, but when you are offering games like this why bother cheating in such an obvious way?
I can tell you whatever I want on the front end of the slot machine say 95% payback. But if I set it to only payback 90% unless you play an impossible number of pulls you will never be able to see the true payback.

Other games like video poker, blackjack, and such you need a much smaller sample size. But slots, you can show one par table and actually run another. So why scam?

-Dave

[delfastTions]

OP did the right thing to open this topic.  Indeed, many players do not even know about such a concept as "provable honesty".  And now they will read this topic and will know.  Although, of course, it is most likely that only a specialist who is well acquainted with this topic can figure out whether it is true that a casino uses provable honesty or not.  But, for example, if you doubt the results of the game, then you can ask the support a corresponding question and see what they answer to the claim "but you do not have a provable honesty algorithm !!!" or give it to me - I will check how honest it is.   ...

[khaled0111]

...
This description seems very credible to me (as for technical noob). Could it be the same cheating in both cases?

I found the same description here and it describes how the provably fair system works for a slot game.
For poker and card games, the server secret is used to determine the order of cards before cutting the deck which may impact the result of the game. For slots, the server secret is used to determine the initial position of reels which does not have the same impact (correct me if am wrong).
But the main question remains: why using the server secret alone, why don't they combine it with the client seed for better transparency?

[nigthcrowd]

I've been running into sites using similar methods to implement what appears to be a provably fair way to determine outcomes which could be manipulated by casino owners without detection.  What makes them different from provably fair games that are actually provably fair is the use of a 'server secret' which is a predefined state of the game (order of cards, a number to be rolled, slot reel positions, etc.) which is then manipulated according to the hashed client + server seeds.  The problem is, the 'server secret' is generated without any transparency - completely behind the scenes.  

Video Poker Example:

- The order of the cards is determined behind the scenes, this is the 'server secret'.
- The client/server seed is hashed and used to determine which card will be dealt first. (cutting the deck).

The problem is, the possibility of a high paying hand is first determined during the initial shuffle.  For example, if the A and K of each suit have more than 10 cards between them - there will be no possibility for a Royal flush to be dealt.  

An example of slots from CryptoSlots.com (archive):

https://i.gyazo.com/96bd9686774aca746e67e6ad9c087b96.png

I think this is kind of a big deal and don't think Casinos should get away with promoting their games as provably fair when they aren't, it's bad for both players and casinos that are actually offering provably fair games.  The problem is, the average player just doesn't have a firm grasp of the provably fair concept.  They see 'seed' and 'hash' and just assume that that means it must be fair.

Anyway, I'm going to dig through my post history and make a list of all the sites I've come across that are currently doing this.  If anyone else comes across some that aren't on the list feel free to let me know and I'll update.  Maybe this belongs in scam accusations, I don't know.  I'm fine if it gets moved, but I'd prefer it stay here and the discussion revolves more around why certain methods that appear provably fair aren't.

Cryptoslots.com/Slotland.eu  (forum thread - they disappeared from the forum after I brought this up)
Slots: Sever Secret generates 9 outcomes, Server/Client hash determines which of the 9 outcomes is used.
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Source (archive)

Cryptsino.io (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)


Coins777.com (forum thread - owners response)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)

Betabit.casino (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Don't see an explanation on their site, you have to verify a bet to figure out how it works.  

I haven't checked the following casinos myself, but they all have the same verbatim terms that include "When you open the game page the server generates a secret and a seed and Reveals its hash" (Identicle to 3 of the casinos already on the list) .  I believe they all use the same script, which is for sale here. (Thank you to Bitinity for posting this in another thread)

Satoshicasino.io
bet42bet.com
zilflip.com
safemars.casino
bigplay.casino
cryptodicecasino.com
e-casino-games.com
cindskillgame.com
winrw.de
woowoocasino.com
cryptomegamillions.com
upcasino24.com
milliontoken.games
winning4good.com
zerocryptopoker.com
cgame88.com
cryptocazino.com
slpcasino.com
everestbet.io
moonjackcasino.com
win-star.co
cash10.io
kasinobtc.com
stakeafrica.com
siraca.com
playtoearn.casino
luckytoken.casino
nulled.to

In every online poker game, we can sense that the bookie does not side with us. In fact, sometimes there are ways that they do it outside of our knowledge. If this happens, do not force again to play in the room, it is better to change the account or play elsewhere.

[pinggoki]

I don't think that not claiming your game isn't provably fair is a good thing in business perspective because if you don't declare that even if it's false, you're going to be losing a lot of potential clientele plus it's not new for businesses to lie about their services and products so I am not surprised that this is the case for some gambling sites.

[pieppiep]

OP did the right thing to open this topic.  Indeed, many players do not even know about such a concept as "provable honesty".  And now they will read this topic and will know.  Although, of course, it is most likely that only a specialist who is well acquainted with this topic can figure out whether it is true that a casino uses provable honesty or not.  But, for example, if you doubt the results of the game, then you can ask the support a corresponding question and see what they answer to the claim "but you do not have a provable honesty algorithm !!!" or give it to me - I will check how honest it is.   ...

We can ask for help from people who are familiar with the server code to prove the system is provably fair or not. He can ask that in here so some members can verify and show to us the result. If you only check the system without trying to enjoy the game, maybe you can become frustrated because that will need longer to find the truth. We as a gambler, don't have to bother to check that code but that will be up to you.

[AicecreaME]

At least in traditional games there are alternatives to finding casinos that are not cheating and that offer the game probably fair, but in PvP poker games the alternatives are limited and rng predominates.

Casinos whether it's an online casino that is crypto or even fiat based, they are cheating to maximize their profits, that's the truth. You only have to choose what kind of way you wanted to lose your money. Playing in a physical casino doesn't guarantee you that they are really playing fair, or if it's PvP in a certain casino, you wouldn't know if someone is with the house and all of you playing against to that someone believes that you are having a fair game but it's not.

[Furious 7]

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me. Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

Many people including me never thought of this aspect of the gambling sites. I wonder how much money these sites make by not truly implementing the provably fair and taking advantage of the ignorance of the gamblers  

Yep, cheating is an integral part of the gambling world,
it has been there since the very beginnings !

This part of the case has happened many times and the casinos always have nothing to deviate from because they are unfair but that's only part of it, and what I played on the casino site was totally fair I just believed it.
This case is usually at casinos that are not known by taking advantage of the ignorance of gamblers and then the casino becomes a scam. I think this has happened a lot.
But still, many casino enthusiasts including myself never give up on casino games.

[khaled0111]

...

Here is a good article which explains how the provably fair algorithm works: https://www.provably.com/
If you understand the basics, you will probably never need anyone's help.
Verifying bet results isn't complicated and almost all casinos have a pv page which explains how the system works and a step by step guide on how to verify bets. You don't even need to do it manually as there are many third party validators.
However, checking whether the system is flawed or not is a bit tricky. It requires a good sense of logic and to focus on the smallest details.

[milewilda]

Extremely useful thread op. Honestly, I have little knowledge regarding provably fair mechanics myself even though I have been playing in crypto gambling sites for the last couple of years. This thread needs to be stickied if you ask me. Also, betabit.casino is a scam site. I won decent amounts through their sign-up bonus and they deducted my entire balance stating that the sign-up bonus was void suddenly.

Many people including me never thought of this aspect of the gambling sites. I wonder how much money these sites make by not truly implementing the provably fair and taking advantage of the ignorance of the gamblers  

Yep, cheating is an integral part of the gambling world,
it has been there since the very beginnings !

This part of the case has happened many times and the casinos always have nothing to deviate from because they are unfair but that's only part of it, and what I played on the casino site was totally fair I just believed it.
This case is usually at casinos that are not known by taking advantage of the ignorance of gamblers and then the casino becomes a scam. I think this has happened a lot.
But still, many casino enthusiasts including myself never give up on casino games.

They could scam out people but nothing do last forever on which they would really be get busted sooner or later and if some sites do run off with those shady acts or being not fair then sooner or later players would find and bust it and when that happens then say goodbye into your business because
it will surely put big effect in overall business reputation and when it do breaks then theres nothing you can do but to deal into the
community feedbacks and criticisms which would really be that normal.

[Furious 7]

This part of the case has happened many times and the casinos always have nothing to deviate from because they are unfair but that's only part of it, and what I played on the casino site was totally fair I just believed it.
This case is usually at casinos that are not known by taking advantage of the ignorance of gamblers and then the casino becomes a scam. I think this has happened a lot.
But still, many casino enthusiasts including myself never give up on casino games.

They could scam out people but nothing do last forever on which they would really be get busted sooner or later and if some sites do run off with those shady acts or being not fair then sooner or later players would find and bust it and when that happens then say goodbye into your business because
it will surely put big effect in overall business reputation and when it do breaks then theres nothing you can do but to deal into the
community feedbacks and criticisms which would really be that normal.

I only know in this forum that if there are suspicious actions, even many cases are not handled faster, their reputation will be destroyed and they will not take long to get visitors to their casino then reputation is very important, otherwise it will destroy the casino. I guess with the above list are some problems that can't be handled then they run away without any news or bring a lot of money.
We must be able to suspect a casino that is in trouble even if it is the first problem.

[bekti3]

To be honest, until now I still don't know what and how to calculate and analyze what a fair mechanism looks like because I've never really explored it and just played and played without taking anything into account.
although what I did was wrong but actually most of the gamblers sometimes do that and this is what makes something important like this forgotten.
with this, it is a reminder that everything must also be seen from several sides, including whether or not the gambling mechanism that I am involved in is fair or not.