Electrum Wallet Migration

[_BlackStar]

I have been using electrum since last year to be exact when I was learning to sign bitcoin message. A standard wallet with a segwit option was the best advice I received from the community and since then I have a pretty secure bitcoin wallet.

But I think there is something I need to learn about some of the wallet options in electrum especially about wallet with two-factor authentication where this option is another way to get user experience to increase bitcoin and wallet security in my opinion. But I still hope to get more information about the security features of this type of wallet from you.

So here goes, I already have a seed from a previous standard ^[segwit] wallet that I can currently use when creating a wallet with two-factor authentication instead of creating a new seed. I feel my action is something called wallet migration from standard wallet ^[segwit] to wallet with two-factor authentication but I still haven't tried it.

I'm still in the stage of getting new seed or using old seed. So since I'm still very new to knowing a lot about electrum and its feature, let me ask some of you who are expert.

• What is the true function of a wallet with two-factor authentication and whether a wallet with this feature can guarantee better security for users compared to a standard wallet ^[segwit]
• Will migrating a wallet from a standard wallet ^[segwit] to a wallet with two-factor authentication change the bitcoin address if the old seed is used?
• Do wallet with two-factor authentication require us to have an authentication app?

It would be great if you would share a bit of your experience about electrum and its feature with me in this thread. I hope I can learn something from you.

[pooya87]

So here goes, I already have a seed from a previous standard ^[segwit] wallet that I can currently use when creating a wallet with two-factor authentication instead of creating a new seed. I feel my action is something called wallet migration from standard wallet ^[segwit] to wallet with two-factor authentication but I still haven't tried it.

You can not do this because Electrum mnemonics have a version number hidden in their encoding that tells your wallet about the wallet type that it should create. When you enter a SegWit wallet's seed phrase in Electrum wallet creation window it will automatically detect its type and won't create a 2FA which has a different version.

• What is the true function of a wallet with two-factor authentication and whether a wallet with this feature can guarantee better security for users compared to a standard wallet ^[segwit]

2FA gives you additional security at a cost since you have to pay the third party to sign each transaction for you.

• Will migrating a wallet from a standard wallet ^[segwit] to a wallet with two-factor authentication change the bitcoin address if the old seed is used?

You can't "migrate" the way you think but the addresses you would create with a 2FA wallet are different since they are using an entirely different script (2of3 multi-sig either using P2SH or P2WSH) whereas a [normal] SegWit wallet is a P2WPKH address type.

• Do wallet with two-factor authentication require us to have an authentication app?

No.
In an Electrum 2FA scheme you create 2 keys but store 1 private key and the public key of the other. Then the centralized remote server produces a key of its own and shares its public key with you to create the 2of3 scheme.
Your wallet file at this point has 1 private key and 2 public keys and can only produce 1 signature while the remote server similarly has 1 private key and 2 public keys. But your seed phrase can produce 2 private keys (first and second) so that you can recover your funds without needing the remote server in case something went wrong.

	|	from seed	|	from server	|	stored in wallet
prv1	|	√	|	×	|	√
prv2	|	√	|	×	|	×
prv3	|	×	|	√	|	×
pub1	|	√	|	×	|	√
pub2	|	√	|	×	|	√
pub3	|	×	|	√	|	√

[nc50lc]

-snip-
I'm still in the stage of getting new seed or using old seed. So since I'm still very new to knowing a lot about electrum and its feature, let me ask some of you who are expert.

Electrum won't let you click "next" after pasting the "old seed" to the seed text box when restoring 2fa wallets.
It will be detected as "Seed Type: segwit".

Take note: Electrum 2fa wallets use Trusted Coin's service for the third party cosigner, and it comes with a price: trustedcoin.com/#/faq

[_BlackStar]

You're right, and I can't seem to do that migration even though the electrum option gives me the ^{[I already have seed]} option. I just tried it and it didn't work. But since I have no urgency about wallet with two-factor authentication then I can forget about it for now. Without asking then I guess I never know if the feature works and how it works. Good you gave me quick understanding, I know more now. Thanks

[NeuroticFish]

You're right, and I can't seem to do that migration even though the electrum option gives me the ^{[I already have seed]} option. I just tried it and it didn't work. But since I have no urgency about wallet with two-factor authentication then I can forget about it for now. Without asking then I guess I never know if the feature works and how it works. Good you gave me quick understanding, I know more now. Thanks

1. I don't think that Electrum 2FA can work with an old seed. You'll need to make a fresh wallet with 2FA and send your coins there.
2. I think that the added security by this 2FA feature is not big and it's not worth it.
3. Keep in mind that you'll have to pay for using the Electrum 2FA feature.
4. From [2] and [3] I'd conclude that it may worth considering the use of Electrum with a hardware wallet instead of 2FA.

[Lucius]

3. Keep in mind that you'll have to pay for using the Electrum 2FA feature.
4. From [2] and [3] I'd conclude that it may worth considering the use of Electrum with a hardware wallet instead of 2FA.

Although TrustedCoin says that the prices of their services are halved every time the price doubles, still 50 000 satoshi for 20 transactions is about $35, which is probably enough to buy some hardware wallet, even some relatively reliable at a time when there are discounts of 20- 30%. For me personally, security is never too expensive - but for those who do a lot of outgoing transactions, this option is definitely too expensive.

[Pmalek]

1. I don't think that Electrum 2FA can work with an old seed. You'll need to make a fresh wallet with 2FA and send your coins there.

It could if the seed OP had was in fact a 2FA seed. In that case, Electrum would recognize it as such and not as a segwit seed, which is currently the case due to the version number that pooya87 mentioned in his reply.

2. I think that the added security by this 2FA feature is not big and it's not worth it.

I agree. He is not just paying TrustedCoin to "allow" him to transfer his own coins, he is also paying more in transaction fees due to the multiple signatures and more complex script present in a multisig setup.

[khaled0111]

You're right, and I can't seem to do that migration even though the electrum option gives me the ^{[I already have seed]} option. I just tried it and it didn't work.

The "I already have a seed option let's you restore an existing 2fa wallet. After you enter the seed, you will be asked whether you want to keep using 2fa or to disable it. It's an extremely useful option.

What is the true function of a wallet with two-factor authentication and whether a wallet with this feature can guarantee better security for users compared to a standard wallet [segwit]

Anyone who has access to your 2fa seed can restore your wallet and disable the 2fa and hence steal your coins. Therefore, imo, it doesn't add much security to your wallet. It can only help when someone get physical access to your device since he won't be able to make transactions without the appropriate authentication codes.

A 2-of-2 multisig wallet or/and an air-gapped setup provide better security (just my opinion).

[nc50lc]

You're right, and I can't seem to do that migration even though the electrum option gives me the ^{[I already have seed]} option. I just tried it and it didn't work.

The "I already have a seed option let's you restore an existing 2fa wallet. After you enter the seed, you will be asked whether you want to keep using 2fa or to disable it. It's an extremely useful option.
-snip-

I think it's a reply to the post above it.
He was talking about his "old seed" which is a Native SegWit Electrum seed, pasting it on that window wont trigger the 'next' button.

[NeuroticFish]

1. I don't think that Electrum 2FA can work with an old seed. You'll need to make a fresh wallet with 2FA and send your coins there.

It could if the seed OP had was in fact a 2FA seed.

Since OP has a non-2FA seed and wants to somehow migrate to 2FA, this case you are talking about, although correct, is of no interest for OP:

So here goes, I already have a seed from a previous standard ^[segwit] wallet that I can currently use when creating a wallet with two-factor authentication instead of creating a new seed.

That's also why OP called his topic "migration" instead of "recovery" ... 
I see a lot of replies about recovering from 2FA... I don't understand why...

Although TrustedCoin says that the prices of their services are halved every time the price doubles, still 50 000 satoshi for 20 transactions is about $35, which is probably enough to buy some hardware wallet, even some relatively reliable at a time when there are discounts of 20- 30%. For me personally, security is never too expensive - but for those who do a lot of outgoing transactions, this option is definitely too expensive.

20 tx = 35$, that means that at 40 tx a hardware wallet is paid at full price, no discounts, and from there one is "on profit", and imho you cannot compare the security provided by a HW with that 2FA.

[Lucius]

20 tx = 35$, that means that at 40 tx a hardware wallet is paid at full price, no discounts, and from there one is "on profit", and imho you cannot compare the security provided by a HW with that 2FA.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that many still think that a hardware wallet is too expensive an investment, and I believe that a number of users are not even aware that such a thing exists. In addition, we could read many times on the forum that Electrum users are wondering why a certain amount disappeared from their wallet - which means that they did not even know that it was a paid service. In any case, 2FA is at least some kind of insurance if the seed is compromised at any time.

[khaled0111]

In any case, 2FA is at least some kind of insurance if the seed is compromised at any time.

No, not really. As I pointed out in my previous reply, 2fa won't help if the seed gets compromised.
A 2fa wallet is a 2-of-3 multisig wallet. Your seed can generate two of the three master private keys plus the third master public key. So, anyone who knows your seed can restore the wallet and sign transactions. This is why I believe it's not really useful.
The only advantage of using a 2fa wallet is that only one xprv key is stored in the device which is not enough to sign transactions.

[pooya87]

In addition, we could read many times on the forum that Electrum users are wondering why a certain amount disappeared from their wallet - which means that they did not even know that it was a paid service.

Just to add for those who may not be familiar with Electrum, the fact that some people don't know there is an additional fee for using 2FA is because they were ignorant of the message that Electrum clearly shows them when they create their wallet for the first time. It is not like the fee is some secret information you have to figure out on your own.