When Religion and Finance [Bitcoin] Overlap and Clash

[Darker45]

Religion, organized religion in particular, is basically focused on spiritual matters, those relating to faith and the supreme being. Once it crosses the spiritual border and enters the mundane world, a clash cannot be avoided.

This is in relation to Indonesia's national Islamic council's declaration of Bitcoin as haram or forbidden. The reason being is that Bitcoin is said to have the elements of uncertainty and wagering.

While the country's top Islamic body's declaration is not legally binding, it is influential to the lives of hundreds of millions of Indonesians who are Muslims. While Bitcoin trading continues, those who strictly adhere to the Islamic Sharia law might find it in direct conflict to their religious morals.

I'm interested to know your opinion on this. I assume there are a lot of Muslim Indonesians in this forum as well as Muslims from other parts of the world. What can you say about this? Which side are you?

Sources:

1. https://cointelegraph.com/news/indonesia-s-national-islamic-council-declares-bitcoin-haram
2. https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2021/11/11/indonesias-religious-leaders-declare-crypto-illegal-for-muslims-report/
3. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/crypto-haram-says-indonesian-islamic-113951771.html

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[Darker45]

The overlapping of religion, especially of Islam, and finance is actually murky.

Pertaining to cryptocurrency and its emerging characteristics and features, there are contentious issues such as lending, staking, volatility, HODLing, and so on. Deeper discussions on these could be lengthier and might need another thread. So for now, it would be better to focus on the specific issue of Indonesia and its Islamic council's declaration.

[stompix]

I assume there are a lot of Muslim Indonesians in this forum as well as Muslims from other parts of the world. What can you say about this? Which side are you?

Do you have to guess?
If somebody is still on this forum and reads this is clear he's not planning on stopping using and trading cryptos because of religion.
The ones that do care about it will of course no longer be here as they are rushing to sell their coins 

From the wiki page I got the feeling that this UFC has no actual legal power, but I got the feeling of some kind of supreme court that has a role in enacting laws or making them unconstitutional or whatever word is used there. So, do they have any saying in the actual making of the laws or are they pure observers?

Despite the MUI admitting that the fatwa is not law in Indonesia, it still can be used as a source of “legislative inspiration,” according to some sources

What does this "inspiration" mean? If they are on the same level as Iran, then it's bad if not...who cares.

Religion, organized religion in particular, is basically focused on spiritual matters

The amount of matter, especially taking the form of precious metals, that is catching the eye wherever religion is involved makes me really wonder about this

[avikz]

I am an atheist and I would like to offer my opinion here.

Religion was never meant for spirituality. It was all about ways to live a life. Spirituality comes from within and it's your inner calling that has no relation with the religion. Unfortunately, billions of people believes in religion and it impacts their lives both in a good and in a bad way.

Till now, I have not seen a single Muslim nation approved cryptocurrency as a legal tender. But at least Indonesia spoke about it and gave a reason for not approving it.

But when a large group of people believes that an ancient book written thousands of years ago can decide their way of life better than science and technology, you can only say that it's unfortunate!

But in a free world, it's an individual choice whether to follow the teachings of religion or to progress with time. You and I can't do anything!

[YOSHIE]

All governments in Indonesia starting from the regions, provinces and centers they are submissive and obedient to the president and religions in Indonesia which are recognized by the government there are 6 religions.
1. Islamic
2. Protestant
3. Catholic
4. Hindus
5. Buddha
6. Confucianism

That's the point, the majority of Muslims, that's right, this is the advantage of Bitcoin in Indonesia, all religions are allowed to use it, no exception: including Islam, although there are issues about Bitcoin, blah, blah, blah, it's just an issue, in fact the government supports and makes legal laws against several exchanges in Indonesia called (BAPPEBTI).

BAPPEBTI is an abbreviation for a government-owned institution under the auspices of the Ministry of Trade of the Republic of Indonesia. .The Commodity Futures Trading Supervisory Agency has the task of supervising and regulating futures trading.

If discussed further, the story is long between Islam and Bitcoin.
I take an example:
Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Malaysia, Singapore etc, the majority of Muslims, as well as Indonesia.

If you discuss about Islam and other religions such as: Catholicism, Hinduism and so on, you have to study their biblical laws which are prohibited and required, that's the key to the problem.

As far as I know, Islam prohibits usury, meaning that it justifies buying and selling and forbids usury, you can see in the Islamic Al-Qur'an, (just write it on google the law of usury in Islam you will find it).
So, from that law in Indonesia there is controversy from one side of Islam saying Bitcoin is allowed on the condition that buying and selling there is no element of usury, on the other hand Bitcoin is forbidden because it is not real.
It is on this basis that the government made a decision: Bitcoin in Indonesia does not have a single prohibition rule and is legal, meaning: Bitcoin may be used as an investment, trade, etc., at your own risk of loss/profit.

[romero121]

The group of Muslims that stand against the use of bitcoin connecting with the religious morals coming up with opposition serves as a promotion for bitcoin among the Muslims who haven't known about bitcoin. Very limited number of Muslims, Christians, and other religion people follow their holy book. So, this is up to the users whether to use bitcoin or not.

It isn't clearly mentioned about the respective phrase that briefs about the uncertainty and wagering. If so, stocks too have the same features. With cryptocurrency it is found high whereas with stocks this can be found low. This is some form of fear among the islamic leaders and they try to keep the common man under control in the name of religion.

[Bttzed03]

~

It isn't clearly mentioned about the respective phrase that briefs about the uncertainty and wagering. If so, stocks too have the same features. With cryptocurrency it is found high whereas with stocks this can be found low.

My initial reaction was to search how they view investing in stocks. It is said that it's not haram (generally) but you have to make sure the company issuing the shares aren't into haram activities. Yeah it appears lower probably of losing money like owning a percentage in a business is acceptable whereas investing in more speculative markets isn't.

[Ucy]

Well, what is important is to know where the authority comes from, whether it's from the CREATOR of Heaven and Earth, or from an evil entity that controls the world and false religions.

We will know the truth in no-distant future. And there could be the desire to unban when the world is in choas. I predict that there will be regrets and shame for the foolish.

[Lucius]

I don't want to offend anyone, but for me, such laws or guidelines in one religion are completely incomprehensible - because if someone does something completely legal, does no harm to another, or does any harm, why would it be bad to invest in Bitcoin? Everyone in this world has to fight for themselves, and religion should not stand in the way - especially if it forbids things that are basically nothing bad.

I can understand a man who lives by religious principles, but I honestly wouldn’t like to be in the shoes of those who have doubts like this when it comes to Bitcoin - and I personally would start seriously questioning whether my religion wants me good or bad in life. There are a lot of other things that religions can impose or advise their believers, but they shouldn’t tell people what currency to use, or what to do with their money.

[jrrsparkles]

Government is under the hands of illiterate or atleast who don't even know basically anything about the monetary policies technically meanwhile some rich people know and understand the money influence the government to stop the people from attaining financial freedom in the name of religion and also some countries claimed that they want to stop illegal and criminal related transactions.

Actually the banking system itself is against the Sharia law so if they are strong patriotic ruler then ban all the banks which gives interest rate based loans since the basic income of Bank is from interest rates.

[songchunlai]

Religion and technology never conflict

[Potato Chips]

"Harm" was also mentioned as one of the reasons why which makes me think they still believe in debunked-countless-times-misconceptions. There's also the thing with holy books being open to a lot of interpretations. There should be some ppl who thinks it isn't haram.

In this case, it would be best to just form a perspective of your own and use others' opinions as a reference.

[Ziskinberg]

Not all followers of the religion would adhere to the religion, but we know how Muslims are so obedient with their religion so we have to expect that majority will not invest in bitcoin or use it. This would really be a big hindrance to adoption, but it is what it is, it cannot please everyone but at least we can still achieve the kind of adoption that will make this market grow.

For our Muslim brothers who are here, I'm pretty sure they are investing in crypto, otherwise they would not be in the forum.

[hyudien]

This thread was already discussed on the local forum https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5370413.0.
I'll try to give some quotes by converting them into English so that everyone can understand globally how this happened, and also the conclusions made by the Fatwa of the Indonesian Ulama Council regarding the Bitcoin law. As the increase in Bitcoin which attracted the government's attention was increasingly arising due to the unfriendly opposition, but in the end everything was decided based on bitcoin into the type of asset class, investment, or trading. According to @DroomieChikito

Investing in Islam is Muamalah which means it is recommended and benefits all parties, and forbids humans to seek and obtain sustenance through speculation in various other ways that are detrimental to others

Note: it has been translated across languages ​​because it is from the Indonesian forum. (I'm from Indonesia and can bridge that statement, I hope @DroomieChikito will allow it)


https://media.neliti.com/media/publications/314803-factor-factor-investasi-dalam-pandangan-2ead3b0e.pdf

[hatshepsut93]

Islam and being backwards, name a more iconic duo.

And those clerics are directly benefiting from their people being more poor and uneducated, because that's how they get to keep their power. But maybe Bitcoin will shift perspective of at least a few people out there, regarding their religion.

[Fesatmas]

Don't know what to say, this is not my realm. Really for me this is beyond knowledge. Religious law is too sensitive for me who does not have the capacity.

As for personally I just hope it's not a moment that only certain groups take advantage of just because ATH has just been touched. Because they should have discussed this a long time ago, but ATH clearly makes people other than religious leaders even have to comment.

[Oceat]

Islam and being backwards, name a more iconic duo.

And those clerics are directly benefiting from their people being more poor and uneducated, because that's how they get to keep their power. But maybe Bitcoin will shift perspective of at least a few people out there, regarding their religion.

This is the problem when religion interfere and it greatly cost us before just because of the religion. Their beliefs, all of it, but maybe that was one-sided views to others while some perspective will shift in accordance to their knowledge about the outside world regardless of their religion.

Although, we can't stop them if that was their choice since we aren't stepping on their shoe. All we have to do is to respect their choices and let the individual choose their own choices if they want to break the haram or proceed to do on their own accordance.

Afterall, we are all just humans tend to make mistakes as we learn and grow.

[stompix]

This thread was already discussed on the local forum https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5370413.0.
I'll try to give some quotes by converting them into English so that everyone can understand globally how this happened, and also the conclusions made by the Fatwa of the Indonesian Ulama Council regarding the Bitcoin law.

I think this post of mu_enrico shows the best to my understanding of why are they considering crypto bad, I'm almost certain google translate is messing with me on som words that's why I'm not going to enter into details but it means to me the main problem is the speculation over it.
I guess I kind of understand what gharar is but the dharar concept is really weird and I can't picture to what it relates in a crypto transaction.

According to @DroomieChikito

Investing in Islam is Muamalah which means it is recommended and benefits all parties, and forbids humans to seek and obtain sustenance through speculation in various other ways that are detrimental to others

Note: it has been translated across languages ​​because it is from the Indonesian forum. (I'm from Indonesia and can bridge that statement, I hope @DroomieChikito will allow it)

If you go too deep into this even buying something that you know is going to rise in price from somebody so theoretically making him lose money is forbidden, right?

Anyhow, until any of their recommendations carry the power of law I think it really doesn't matter.

[swogerino]

I am not a Muslim but I live in a country where Muslims are the big majority and I have a lot of Muslim friends.A lot of local scholars here declared it forbidden too for the same reasoning as you point out in the first post.However I liked very much the explanation of one of the most well known scholars which he has a magistrate(I think the highest education to Islamic religion) from Saudi Arabia Islamic university.

Many persons asked him what about this new thing,the cryptocurrencies,the Bitcoin.He really easily explained that if a person in Islam buys a good for low price and keeps it to sell it a long time after for a much better price is permitted the same applies to crypto mining clearly making crypto mining allowed.He also said that trading is kinda like gambling which is forbidden.So there are two point of views,mining is allowed while trading isn't.So whoever gets Bitcoin from mining is not forbidden while whoever gets it from trading is clearly forbidden.Hope this helps.

[mamesso]

Controversy becomes a clash when faced with state law and religious law, especially Islam.
The Indonesian Clerics Council (MUI) has issued a Fatwa through the Ijtima'(agreed) Clerics on the use of cryptocurrency. According to the view of Indonesian Clerics, the use or trading of cryptocurrencies into one of the currencies is haram, because it contain Gharar (transactions uncertainty), Dharar (can harm one party), Qimar (speculative or gambling) And contrary to Law number 7 of 2011 and Bank Indonesia Regulation number 17 of 2015.
The reason Indonesian Clerics issued a fatwa haram on cryptocurrency was because it did not meet the syar'i(provisions in Islam) requirements for sil'ah(real goods or commodities when buying and selling), that is there is a physical form, has a fixed value, and property rights that can be actually transferred to the buyer.

However, Clerics allow trading of cryptocurrencies that comply with Islamic rules, owns underlying asset, and brings clear profit to both parties.