When Religion and Finance [Bitcoin] Overlap and Clash

[yhiaali3]

I am a Muslim and adhere to religious teachings and I work in cryptocurrencies freely without caring about the words of these idiots who call themselves Islamic clerics. I have read the entire Holy Qur’an as well as the bulk of the “honorable hadiths” but I did not find that there is any Quranic or honorable hadith that can be relied upon that we can say that bitcoin is haram or forbidden, how do they consider bitcoin forbidden at the same time that they accept dealing with banknotes? Bitcoin has more stability and certainty than worthless fiat currencies?
Halal and Haram are in the way things are used and not just by owning them. I mean, you own the dollar, for example, and this is not forbidden, but it is forbidden to use it for things forbidden in Islamic law such as gambling, drugs or prostitution, the same for Bitcoin, owning Bitcoin is not forbidden but using it in Things that violate Sharia is forbidden.

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[Darker45]

I am a Muslim and adhere to religious teachings and I work in cryptocurrencies freely without caring about the words of these idiots who call themselves Islamic clerics. I have read the entire Holy Qur’an as well as the bulk of the “honorable hadiths” but I did not find that there is any Quranic or honorable hadith that can be relied upon that we can say that bitcoin is haram or forbidden, how do they consider bitcoin forbidden at the same time that they accept dealing with banknotes? Bitcoin has more stability and certainty than worthless fiat currencies?
Halal and Haram are in the way things are used and not just by owning them. I mean, you own the dollar, for example, and this is not forbidden, but it is forbidden to use it for things forbidden in Islamic law such as gambling, drugs or prostitution, the same for Bitcoin, owning Bitcoin is not forbidden but using it in Things that violate Sharia is forbidden.

I know you are not the only one having this position. So you guys are in effect actively defying the fatwa of what is considered the foremost Islamic scholarly council in your country. It is interesting to note that a person like you who is strictly adhering to the Islamic teachings is also rejecting the declaration of the Islamic authority.

I'm curious. Is there by any means a possibility that a group of like-minded persons like you would challenge such findings and cause a reversal of the body's earlier declaration?

[galambo]

I am not a Muslim but I live in a country where Muslims are the big majority and I have a lot of Muslim friends.A lot of local scholars here declared it forbidden too for the same reasoning as you point out in the first post.However I liked very much the explanation of one of the most well known scholars which he has a magistrate(I think the highest education to Islamic religion) from Saudi Arabia Islamic university.

Muslim scholars with time learn things specially related to technology and finance. For instance till 90s Muslim scholars declared stock trading as haram since its not backed by anything. With time they learned that they are physical representation of company and now its declared halal. Right now scholars  are not clear about this technology. With time they will learn and made it halal.

[yhiaali3]

I know you are not the only one having this position. So you guys are in effect actively defying the fatwa of what is considered the foremost Islamic scholarly council in your country. It is interesting to note that a person like you who is strictly adhering to the Islamic teachings is also rejecting the declaration of the Islamic authority.

I'm curious. Is there by any means a possibility that a group of like-minded persons like you would challenge such findings and cause a reversal of the body's earlier declaration?

Of course, there are many, but this varies according to the environment in which the person lives. Some Muslims who live in a closed fanatic environment controlled by the clergy with their fanatical ideas, it is difficult for such young people to deviate from the “fatwas” of these fanatics. As for the more open environments that have The opportunity to open up more to the outside world, you will find many young people who do not care about the fatwas of clerics and understand the teachings of Islamic law in their own way, and try to get out of the thinking of fanatic clerics while staying within the teachings of Islamic law.
But to be frank with you, the section that is controlled by the clergy with their fanatical fatwas makes up the largest part of Islamic societies, even in Islamic countries that are somewhat advanced such as Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey, you will find that the largest part is subject to the influence of the clergy, but I am optimistic that this situation will change in the near future with increasing openness to science and other civilizations.

Nevertheless, I think that it is very possible that there will be small groups challenging this fatwa, but I do not know to what extent its impact will be. In the past, some Islamic countries witnessed such a case where people rebelled against some fatwas of clerics, forcing them to retract this fatwa.

By the way, this fatwa regarding bitcoin is not found in all Islamic countries. There are many clerics who do not prohibit bitcoin. If you search the Internet, you will find hundreds of questions about these fatwas related to bitcoin. I have read many fatwas that say that bitcoin is not forbidden, but only margin and futures trading it is forbidden because it is similar to gambling, which is forbidden in Islamic law.

[josephdd1]

I was brought up in a very religious family. I was always taught that money is an evil so we mustn't try to earn more. Personally I don't support this point of view as money is a tool to get something that you need and want. As I live in this world, I have a choice either to be poor and unhappy, or to be rich and be more happy. I choose financial freedom as it opens me and my family a lot of opportunities.

[virasog]

I was brought up in a very religious family. I was always taught that money is an evil so we mustn't try to earn more. Personally I don't support this point of view as money is a tool to get something that you need and want. As I live in this world, I have a choice either to be poor and unhappy, or to be rich and be more happy. I choose financial freedom as it opens me and my family a lot of opportunities.

With my little knowledge, i can say that bitcoin could not be disallowed in any religion. You can think of bitcoin as another currency (replacing paper money) or another assets like gold (digital gold). Since both money and gold are allowed in every religion there should be no reason to link bitcoin with religion. I can only believe that this may be another tactic to discourage people from using bitcoins.

[Kakmakr]

It will be interesting to see what will happen if Bitcoin or any other Crypto currency for that matter.. become a global currency. We know the Muslims love money, so will they haram that global currency too? All currencies have a speculative side to it, they call it Forex trading.... so is that haram too? 

These Clerics should stick to religious matters and leave financial matters to the experts.... but I think if someone donates a couple of 1000 of bitcoins to them, they will gladly accept it. (hypocrisy at it's best) 

[davis196]

AFAIK,interest rates and borrowing money are forbidden by Islam,but Islamic banking still exists.
How come Bitcoin is halal in some Islamic countries and haram in others?It seems to me that this is just the opinion of the Islamic clerics.Some clerics interpret the Quran,Sharia law and the hadiths in one way,other clerics interpret them in another way.It looks like interpretation is more important than the facts.
It's OK that some people will refuse to use Bitcoin,because they think that it's against their morals and/or religious law.
That's the great thing about Bitcoin.Nobody is obligated to use BTC and everyone participates in the community voluntarily.

[Poker Player]

Islam has not gone through the conflict between reason and faith that Christianity went through in the Renaissance. In that conflict, faith lost, and has resulted in societies of Christian origin that are increasingly atheistic, and those who are still religious in those societies do not question scientific knowledge on the basis of what the sacred scriptures say, as was done in ancient times. In any case, if there is a conflict between one thing and the other, they try to reconcile them, a task that is becoming increasingly difficult.

Islam will at some point have to face this conflict between reason and faith, hopefully in a more peaceful way than what happened in Europe during the Renaissance, with the condemnation of Galileo and people burned at the stake.

Until then, in cases like this Bitcoin case we can do nothing. If the clerics who are supposed to be the highest interpreters of religion on earth, ban Bitcoin, religious people will believe them, it is a matter of faith, and rational arguments are not going to change it.

[glendall]

I am a Muslim, but I feel that the fatwa issued by the MUI is very baseless, I think as long as crypto uses private money and is obtained fairly, I think,
here no one is harmed in trading bitcoin and other crypto, the name is trading, I think there must be profit and loss, because that is trading law
if staking is said to be haram, what about bank deposits? a little disappointed with the MUI statement that I can't put into words, basically everyone has a different point of view with bitcoin, let MUI say it's haram but I don't,

[rozak]

I am a Muslim, but I feel that the fatwa issued by the MUI is very baseless, I think as long as crypto uses private money and is obtained fairly, I think,
here no one is harmed in trading bitcoin and other crypto, the name is trading, I think there must be profit and loss, because that is trading law
if staking is said to be haram, what about bank deposits? a little disappointed with the MUI statement that I can't put into words, basically everyone has a different point of view with bitcoin, let MUI say it's haram but I don't,

I believe what MUI concludes is something that is still superficial. they should compare it with something that is already running and they use for their daily activities as a comparison.
whether crypto and blockchain have too many downsides or will there really be benefits. Of course, if MUI opens more and more in-depth discussions with crypto and blockchain experts in its country, it will get wiser conclusions.
because as far as I know, they forbid Bitcoin as a transaction tool. but as an investment asset, I think it is still tolerated. it may also be against the country's rules that limit the legal currency used as a means of payment.
I think everything will be more flexible when government regulations can strengthen bitcoin's position in a country.

[bekti3]

I think things like this will still be in a long debate.
Talking about the majority, it may be true that Islam dominates and becomes the majority in Indonesia, but it does not mean that other religions and opinions are ruled out.
Besides that, the rules may only be mostly for those in Indonesia but it seems that things like this will be considered a breeze and I think because this kind of thing is only religious but not bound by laws in the country

[fiulpro]

I am not really a Muslim or a religious person perse. But I do understand those values but at the end of the day :

Isn't everything uncertain??

The idea of certainty is usually defined by traditional things, traditional investments but when we talk about today's failing economy, can we really position them in the same sector for long term??

-The economy of most countries are falling apart which means soon enough the price of the particular currencies might fall down in matter of seconds.

-The price of most things are sky rocketing, we cannot just define volatility to be a factor attached to Bitcoins.

Investing is considered 'haram' in islam, mainly any short term selling is supposed to be forbidden. But at the same time, I do think we can go into deep depths about what's Haram or no, most of the times, people do it not because they don't trust their religion, but because they trust their common sense more.

At the end of the day it's the decision of a person not the decision of a government forcing their ideals.

[mamesso]

I was brought up in a very religious family. I was always taught that money is an evil so we mustn't try to earn more. Personally I don't support this point of view as money is a tool to get something that you need and want. As I live in this world, I have a choice either to be poor and unhappy, or to be rich and be more happy. I choose financial freedom as it opens me and my family a lot of opportunities.

On this point I totally agree with your opinion. The attraction of money exceeds the attractiveness of a pretty girl. Just because of the money the robbery occurred, torture and even murder.
Money is not everything, but everything costs money. That's the reality.

Back to the topic of discussion, when the development of the times is faced with religion, be it Islam or any other religion, there is a certain point that become a collision. For example, Religion says it is not allowed or forbid something that exists in this day and age, while technological developments have become a part of our lives. Specifically, I described the development of cryptocurrencies as a necessity and providing enjoyment for users to make transactions easier.

[n0ne]

I am not really a Muslim or a religious person perse. But I do understand those values but at the end of the day :

Isn't everything uncertain??

The idea of certainty is usually defined by traditional things, traditional investments but when we talk about today's failing economy, can we really position them in the same sector for long term??

-The economy of most countries are falling apart which means soon enough the price of the particular currencies might fall down in matter of seconds.

-The price of most things are sky rocketing, we cannot just define volatility to be a factor attached to Bitcoins.

Investing is considered 'haram' in islam, mainly any short term selling is supposed to be forbidden. But at the same time, I do think we can go into deep depths about what's Haram or no, most of the times, people do it not because they don't trust their religion, but because they trust their common sense more.

At the end of the day it's the decision of a person not the decision of a government forcing their ideals.

If one think about the uncertainty, then each and everything will be haram. There is nothing offensive, because we don't know what'll be our situation by tomorrow. This is same with every religious people. I came to know a little about the things mentioned in holy quran that they need to engage in business. I don't know what exactly it means. Business is a kind of investment, we don't know the certainty of profit.

If religion stay as a block then few may follow, which isn't gonna make a big impact on the market. However the final decision is upon an users own sense as said in the above quote.

[DarkDays]

The overlapping of religion, especially of Islam, and finance is actually murky.

Agreed, there are too many convolutions. Because of this, it will be difficult for Islamic countries to look at cryptocurrency in the same way as they perceive fiat, especially when the term 'cryptocurrency' can be associated with wrongdoing (that's of course not to say that this is not the case for fiat) is just that crypto is often vandalised as the 'bad economy', with fiat that has been used for thousands of years being preferred.

Pertaining to cryptocurrency and its emerging characteristics and features, there are contentious issues such as lending, staking, volatility, HODLing, and so on.

These actually extend to any financial activity other than work itself, and even then the term 'work' is still left to be widely interpreted...
In the end, it seems to me to be down to the individual to choose what they feel is appropriate for them

[karanggatak]

religion not only mention for trust a thing, not only for a faith, but also daily life. religion will help and guide believer to have good manner and all of needed to have, wealth, mental, or faith itself.
need to dive deep inside to know about this problem. and i ever ask to someone teacher who really care about religion, and he have to learn more. sometime, people cand decide and need to have more knowledge to decide something, not only from book but also from the other stuff.

[KennyR]

Religion is the belief and worship of some superhuman controlling power. It is the faith of people. If one believes in it, then there is nothing to overlap and clash with the values provided by the religion. As of now everything is connected with religious morals. What for this is done, I'm not sure about it. In Christianity some find religion spreading as a profession. With Muslims I haven't come across such act, yet this news shows that it also tries to rule its people through religion.

[TelolettOm]

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In Indonesia, the majority is Islam and commonly the declaration (Fatwa) by MUI will be followed by most People (Islamic). However, related tot his declaration about crypto is haram, it is still debatable.
And as far as I know, the declaration of haram was not made or stated by central MUI, but the branch of it, that is located in one of the provinces in my country.
There are some points why this declaration to be haram:
1. Crypto cannot be a currency
Yes, exactly, in Indonesia itself, crypto is only legal as a commodity asset and not legal as a currency as stated in one of the rules here under Bappebti.
And about the disadvantages of the crypto that is considered very high (based on their assumption) may refer to certain shitcoins (moreover crypto that has no underlying, value, and also requiring pump and dump.

However, if this is about at our own risk to use crypto for investment and trading.
For me myself, as one of the people in the religion, I am still dong this, trading and also investing crypto, as far I use it not for a currency (because this is exactly illegal in my country), and also I must be aware of not trading and investing in shitcoins or hype coins that are very risky like gambling.

[bhooscream]

And as far as I know, the declaration of haram was not made or stated by central MUI, but the branch of it, that is located in one of the provinces in my country.
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There are some points why this declaration to be haram:
1. Crypto cannot be a currency
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You are right. I also heard that it is declared by the branch of MUI in east Java. So, the statement cannot be used as an official guide because the MUI center still doesn't state anything about Bitcoin or crypto recently. Even MUI center states something about Bitcoin and crypto, it should differ into 2 categories, investment and payment tool. Based on the regulation in Indonesia, Bitcoin or crypto can be used as a digital asset, it is supported by the government. While for payment tool purposes, it is strongly forbidden, because only Rupiah can be used as the legal payment tool. SO, haram is only for the cases of using Bitcoin or Altcoins as a payment tool.