Bitcoin ecosystem’s weakness

[buwaytress]

If they ban it or regulate it, this presently shows a weakness in the bitcoin ecosystem.

Bangladesh banned bitcoin many years ago and Japan, El Salvador, and a lot of other countries adopted bitcoin. Neither showed "weakness in bitcoin ecosystem", this one is no different.

I'd say it would be a weakness if Bitcoin mining couldn't be banned by any country. I like all this news about bans and blocks and sanctions, which continues to tell me that governments and states and legislators still cannot understand how Bitcoin works, and that lets me know I'm still a relatively early adopter.

Anyway, this is all targetted at commercial farms. Not blanket ban on the act of mining.

If Sweden one day brings to court an indie guy for mining crypto, they'll be the laughing stock of Scandinavia.

[taufik123]

-snip-
You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China) 

Learn from the china incident that expelled every miner from china and made the miners move to countries that were pro with bitcoin and became a new field for countries that accepted them as miners.

Countries that accept miners naturally have an advantage.

Currently miners are also aware of the importance of using renewable and environmentally friendly energy, this will also encourage the bitcoin ecosystem to be better.

Countries that adopt bitcoin such as El Salvador are also creating their own bitcoin mining industry by harnessing energy from active volcanoes and this is an innovative use of natural energy.

[Coyster]

Sooner or later, governments will realize that most of their attempted regulations/sanctions can't really affect the Bitcoin network for too long, it would only have a short term effect, but in the long run, Bitcoin would definitely be fine. The whole attack on Bitcoin through the erroneous impression that "Bitcoin is harmful for the environment" is just one of the many ploys of the government to discredit Bitcoin, and if they decide that they do not want Bitcoin mining farms in their countries, then other countries will gladly accept miners, there is no sort of monopoly in this situation. Having said that, I believe that in years to come, many of these countries that are currently hostile to the Bitcoin network would prolly have a change of heart, it has happened previously on many occasions, and this wouldn't be a surprise either.

[Ararbermas]

I reckon there should be a development and engineering team formed to research on Asic resistance. Users should be given back the ability to mine in the privacy of their own homes where the government has no right to stop them.

well probably there are some factors that we don't understand since we're not there on their country and experience what they experienced because of mining activities.. But yeah i will agree that instead of banning the crypto mining perhaps its a good idea if they should start asking for authorization wherein in order to reduce the cost of energy and of course to avoid massive problem again.. Not to implement ban immediately in order to remove all those activities because it's like no mercy for all miners.

[Wind_FURY]

I can guarantee you.... there will always be a country that would give a big f_ck you to the rest of the world ...and they will allow Bitcoin and Crypto mining. When the hashing power goes down... the difficulty goes down and these people in those countries will once again be able to mine Bitcoin with GPU's and CPU's.

You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China)  

El Salvador is that country. I believe others like Iran, and other nation-states that are being sanctioned, and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

[rizqoAD]

In my opinion, various prohibitions or regulations to stop the development of Bitcoin in various countries are being carried out, this is because the government does not want Bitcoin to continue to grow and shift the position of fiat, this is unavoidable in my opinion because we as ordinary people want a financial alternative that is resistant to inflation, Bitcoin is here to solve that problem. Now as the development of Bitcoin is increasingly accepted by the public, regulations continue to be made by regulators to stop its development.

[fiulpro]

Problem with license is that :
Generally they are very expensive for the individual miners since the general cost of mining includes the excessive cost of electricity as well. Which does mean that the rules and regulations set by the government might be harmful for the individual/small miners but they would be very much more important for the mining firms, which can swiftly take over the hash rate.

Therefore I do think as long as the marker is dominated by mining companies, there won't be any bigger/ excessive change.

Other than that I do think the legality of owning an ASIC is not one sided, it's much dependent upon the government as well.

ASIC resistance is something that might not work worldwide.

[Tumanggor]

fud and resistance to bitcoin continues to emerge and it will not weaken the bitcoin ecosystem

The EU may restrict the movement of miners but not miners in other continents. at this time no country really has a strong influence on the price of bitcoin except the US and as long as the US does not strictly prohibit bitcoin then the price of bitcoin will remain strong

[Vaskiy]

I can guarantee you.... there will always be a country that would give a big f_ck you to the rest of the world ...and they will allow Bitcoin and Crypto mining. When the hashing power goes down... the difficulty goes down and these people in those countries will once again be able to mine Bitcoin with GPU's and CPU's.

You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China)  

El Salvador is that country. I believe others like Iran, and other nation-states that are being sanctioned, and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

Right now one such country is El Salvador. Already they've booked a big profit out of bitcoin adoption. Now the government will whole heartedly welcome miners, if something like a ban happens around. When the Chinese government made a ban, more miners moved to Iraq, and within a short the illegal usage of electricity on mining peaked whereas only 5% did it with proper registration. So, they took steps to have control over it and restricted. Then once again the government allowed mining. So, one way or the other the process will continue without any big impact to the network.

[Fundamentals Of]

Why is this a weakness of the Bitcoin ecosystem? PoW is one of the strengths of Bitcoin. But this is barely about the Bitcoin ecosystem. This is more about the opponents and critics of Bitcoin looking for a way to counter its ever increasing global influence. But this will not succeed. The opponents and critics of Bitcoin should rather focus on the weakness of fiat and the fiat economy and improve them because their failure is the fuel of Bitcoin. Right now the level of fiat inflation is adding more fuel to the Bitcoin fire.

[SFR10]

However, the regulators can always have the ability to ban cryptomining because it has become a business that needs regulator permits and licenses to begin operation or be approved to operate.
~Snipped~
Users should be given back the ability to mine in the privacy of their own homes where the government has no right to stop them.

Even if that becomes the law, realistically, they can't stop every single miner in those regions! The small-scale miners with access to renewable sources ^{[e.g. solar panels]} at home, will continue their operations and I wouldn't be surprised to see other home miners ^{[with only a few mining rigs]} underclocking what they already have ^{[with schedules mining times]} so it wouldn't be obvious that they're mining at home!
^{- In other words, that's not a weakness!}

and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

By hodling it, they're not actually using it and I don't think it could have a positive impact on the issue in question.

[davis196]

1.This is just a proposal,not an actual ban.There's no need to panic over proposals,gossips and all kinds of unnecessary drama.
2.The idea of banning a business,just because that business consumes "dirty" electricity which was produced by burning coal is ridiculous.The government will have to ban all the businesses and households that are consuming "dirty" electricity as well.All businesses should be treated equally.Right?
3.Sweden and Europe in general aren't important for crypto mining at all,so why do you even care about this news.
4.The idea of reviving ASICs mining doesn't sound good to me.It will create more problems rather than become a solution for the fake "environmental" crypto mining problem.

[Wind_FURY]

I can guarantee you.... there will always be a country that would give a big f_ck you to the rest of the world ...and they will allow Bitcoin and Crypto mining. When the hashing power goes down... the difficulty goes down and these people in those countries will once again be able to mine Bitcoin with GPU's and CPU's.

You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China)  

El Salvador is that country. I believe others like Iran, and other nation-states that are being sanctioned, and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

Right now one such country is El Salvador. Already they've booked a big profit out of bitcoin adoption. Now the government will whole heartedly welcome miners, if something like a ban happens around.

Because El Salvador is a Nation-State-HODLer. They will need to secure their investment’s success. Part of Bitcoin’s success is motivated by incentives and greed.

When the Chinese government made a ban, more miners moved to Iraq, and within a short the illegal usage of electricity on mining peaked whereas only 5% did it with proper registration. So, they took steps to have control over it and restricted. Then once again the government allowed mining. So, one way or the other the process will continue without any big impact to the network.

It was Iran. Plus the U.S. and Kazakhstan.

[pooya87]

It was Iran. Plus the U.S. and Kazakhstan.

Actually most of them moved to Kazakhstan. Iran had a nice hash rate before the China ban. In fact during Trump era Iran included bitcoin in their annual budget to be used for imports/exports too but everything about Iran's international trades is kept under wraps (unless it is with another sanctioned nation or China) so we don't really know the real values.
By my estimates according to some reports of energy consumption and the taxes, I believe Iran currently has a little less than 20% of the total hashrate and that is growing fast.
Keep in mind that electricity in Iran has always been dirt cheap (0.002 $/KWH), a lot less than China.

[stompix]

Right now one such country is El Salvador. Already they've booked a big profit out of bitcoin adoption. Now the government will whole heartedly welcome miners, if something like a ban happens around.

Salvador is a net importer of electric energy!
The entire production capacity of the country couldn't power more than 1/6 of the current hashrate even if we assume the most efficient gear in terms of j/Gh.
And no, there is no magical geothermal well that out of the blue will produce that energy.

The government will have to ban all the businesses and households that are consuming "dirty" electricity as well.All businesses should be treated equally.Right?

That's exactly what China is doing , they have a list of activities that are going to be phased out completely, one criteria is how energy intensive that activity is.
And if you think that the EU with its crazy eco-movement where everything is solar and wind is too far away from banning anything related to fossil fuel you're deeply mistaken. Politicians here are ready to tell us to stay in cold and have rationalized electricity and planned blackouts rather than admitting we can't live a normal life without "dirty" energy.

[pooya87]

Salvador is a net importer of electric energy!
The entire production capacity of the country couldn't power more than 1/6 of the current hashrate even if we assume the most efficient gear in terms of j/Gh.

I don't think 15% is consider a net importer, besides a small country with a very small population of about 6-7 million is not supposed to produce that much electricity because there has never been that much demand for it.
I'm not an expert but if demand rises, the infrastructure will be built to meet the demand.

And if you think that the EU with its crazy eco-movement where everything is solar and wind is too far away from banning anything related to fossil fuel you're deeply mistaken.

The only problem EU currently has is Putin's boot on their neck as he is controlling the gas flow to EU and he has decreased it recently to push the price up. Otherwise their eco-movement is a joke and will be forgotten when Russia loosens the valves to let more gas reach EU.

[stompix]

I don't think 15% is consider a net importer,

If you sell oil of 10 billion and you import of 10 billion and once cent you're a net importer, that's the definition, if imports outweigh exports you're a net importer.

besides a small country with a very small population of about 6-7 million is not supposed to produce that much electricity because there has never been that much demand for it.

If you import energy then there is demand...  

I'm not an expert but if demand rises, the infrastructure will be built to meet the demand.

This is also limited:
https://www.cne.gob.sv/tema/energias-renovables-2/energia-geotermica/
The maximum installed capacity would be at around 800MW, that's not even two nuclear reactors, of course, they could try and cover the country with solar panels but...that works only during the day, miners need energy 24/7.

It's pretty simple, you can't depend on a country that produces 6twh a year to host at least 44twh. Only a large country with enough spare capacity can do it, that's why both Iran and Kazakhstan were caught off guard by a few tens of thousands of miners settling down, right now there are only three countries in the world that have enough spare capacity to host the entire hashrate, and it's a pretty normal and obvious thing.

[DaveF]

The only problem EU currently has is Putin's boot on their neck as he is controlling the gas flow to EU and he has decreased it recently to push the price up. Otherwise their eco-movement is a joke and will be forgotten when Russia loosens the valves to let more gas reach EU.

Possibly, but you wind up in the situation that parts of the US have had. Once conservation methods were put in place when fuel prices dropped the demand took years to get back where it was.
There are several amusement parks in the US with massive solar farms and battery storage. During the hottest days of the summer they are using a fraction of the grid power that they used to.
When natural gas prices dropped and the additional generation / distribution capacity could be built for a good price. It was at a much smaller scale. Which kept the price of the gas down since less was used.

Same with other forms of generation. Wind is 2.5x the solar capacity in the US. (Not counting home rooftop solar) Why, because there are many areas where the wind never really stops during high demand. When gas was down, they kept building wind farms. Not because they were cheap, not because they had an economic advantage over gas fired plants, but because these places had suffered through gas price spikes (power price) and would rather pay a little more all day every day then worry about tomorrows price being 2x todays and the day after being even more.

We are seeing that here in parts of upstate NY, pay more every day but not give a crap about gas price since it's all hydro power. If the water stops flowing downhill it means gravity is broken and we all have bigger problems :-) This is also why a lot of mining operations are moving to NY [pre-built data centers that are no longer in use is the main one by far] But, power that although expensive by comparison to other places, is really not going to vary much in price since it is hydro.

So yeah, Russia has pulled the ramp up the gas prices more then once. It could be this time it could be next time it could be the time after that. But sooner or later it's going to be, "Nah, keep your gas we're good"

 -Dave

[pooya87]

Only a large country with enough spare capacity can do it, that's why both Iran and Kazakhstan were caught off guard by a few tens of thousands of miners settling down,

I don't know about Kazakhstan but Iran's short lived electricity problems had absolutely nothing to do with bitcoin miners. Additionally Iran has a lot of spare capacity that has made the country a big exporter of electricity. For example about 25% of Afghanistan (Iran's eastern neighbor) is provided by Iran. There were talks of increasing exports by 400 MW to Pakistan (another neighbor in the east). Same thing in the west with Iraq and Syria.
There are also either smaller amounts exported or exports were for a couple of years to other neighbors such as Turkey, Armenia, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan.

To say that Iran was caught off guard just because of a tiny increase in electricity usage from miners is just silly. The electric company announced 3 days ago that Iran can increase electricity export by 20000 MW.

[stompix]

Additionally Iran has a lot of spare capacity that has made the country a big exporter of electricity. For example about 25% of Afghanistan (Iran's eastern neighbor) is provided by Iran. There were talks of increasing exports by 400 MW to Pakistan (another neighbor in the east). Same thing in the west with Iraq and Syria.
There are also either smaller amounts exported or exports were for a couple of years to other neighbors such as Turkey, Armenia, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan.

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/462877/Iran-nearly-zeroes-electricity-exports-amid-surging-domestic

TEHRAN - Iranian Energy Ministry's Spokesman for Electricity Industry Mostafa Rajabi Mashhadi said on Wednesday the country has stopped electricity exports to neighboring countries due to the surge in domestic demand and only 50 megawatts (MW) of electricity is exported to Afghanistan at the moment.
According to Rajabi Mashhadi, the imports of electricity, on the other hand, have been raised to 650 MW and the country is currently importing electricity from Turkmenistan, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, ISNA reported.

The official had announced on Tuesday that the country’s power plants are currently able to generate only 54,000 MW of electricity which is nearly 12,000 MW less than the domestic power demand.

I find it really hard to believe your number of 20GW when the energy minister is saying stuff like this!  

And they could boast about producing anything, they always do shit like this, from their toy invisible plane to every space-age weapon they've invested, when it comes to reality is stuff like that above that happens. It's like Russia building every year something that would be a killer for western technology, from cars to planes to smartphones.