Jack Dorsey far less decentralized exchange (tbDEX)

[Charles-Tim]

When I read the news that Twitter CEO has been planning to build a decentralized bitcoin exchange, I was thinking it would be like those that utilized trustless service. The white paper for the decentralized exchange (tbDEX) was released on the 19th of this month, yesterday. The far more decentralized bitcoin exchange known is Bisq while thinking tbDEX will be the second, but when I glanced through the white paper yesterday, it was completely otherwise.

On the fourth page of the white paper is verifiable credentials, which means anyone or any organization that will make use of the exchange service will have to go through verification and most likely identity verification. Which means the credential verification will consists of name, address, photo, identity cards like drivers license, nation ID card and international passport, or more.

Users that want to make use of tbDEX service would be able to connect their noncustododial wallet after passing KYC and be able to exchange one coin for the other with bitcoin, but only after KYC credentials have been submitted by users before they can be able to make use of the service. I do not see this other than what was proposed some months back in US, for US citizens that is making use of an exchange (centralized exchanges) to register their noncustododial wallet address.

Although, the advantage is that many people can use this means to exchange bitcoin to another altcoin, or exchange altcoin to bitcoin. And just after exchanging, the coin will be on trader's noncustodial wallet address on blockchain which still means, it is still someones keys and it is still the person's coins, but no privacy. Anyone that wants privacy will never make use of this exchange (tbDEX) for his privacy aspect.

But while making use of this type of KYC DEX exchanges like tbDEX, aside that having privacy is not possible, also very likely and possible that coins can be seized during trading just like on instant exchanges.

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[Bttzed03]

This is my first time learning about this exchange but a quick read on the WP's abstract and you'll get the idea that they will require some verification. Did they really advertise/propose privacy and anonymity to US citizens? If so, that was a bold but a dangerous move because it's the US and every legal crypto exchange there is regulated. I guess what they're offering now is still better than Coinbase, Binance US, and Bittrex US.

On a side note, we should probably start normalizing the use of the term non-custodial exchange instead of DEX but I can't think of a good abbreviation. NCEX?

[joniboini]

Honestly I do believe it is more or less a PR stunt. But I won't be surprised considering many 'dex' already start doing this KYC stuff albeit not explicitly, such as banning people from US (from the IP address). DYDX and others might be doing it to prevent any legal problems, not to mention if their business is based in the US.

On a side note, we should probably start normalizing the use of the term non-custodial exchange instead of DEX but I can't think of a good abbreviation. NCEX?

NDEX maybe? Or you can put them in a big umbrella such as Semi-DEX.

[oHnK]

If Jack Dorsey is serious about making a DEX project for his future investment, I still think will this be his private business or under his company?  Indeed, there is no clear connection between Twitter and the DEX project, but here it seems that Jack Dorsey as Twitter's CEO and his CFO have significant differences of opinion and views.  The CFO said it was impossible to invest in crypto while the CEO opened a DEX project instead.  Regarding KYC, I as a person who is not bothered by identity then this is not a problem but they will lose the anonymous user segment.  Although this problem is related to government regulations, there is no solution if they want to comply with the law.

[Heisenberg_Hunter]

Although, the advantage is that many people can use this means to exchange bitcoin to another altcoin, or exchange altcoin to bitcoin. And just after exchanging, the coin will be on trader's noncustodial wallet address on blockchain which still means, it is still someones keys and it is still the person's coins, but no privacy. Anyone that wants privacy will never make use of this exchange (tbDEX) for his privacy aspect.

Though I've never used Bisq in general, I've been a regular user of LocalBitcoins back in 2018-2020 for various reasons. I was generally in need of fiat-btc bridge only for withdrawing small amounts as I hardly invest nor had withdrawn more as I like to keep my savings in Bitcoin alone rather than fiat. LBC was good enough during the crypto winter days and hardly the transaction volumes were less too. But with the recent upwards movement of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general, majority of the exchanges had started placing mandatory KYC rules on their customers to prevent various illegal activities. I would say it is quite necessary if Bitcoin needs to go in a better way rather than being a currency used for illegal activities.

Conversion of fiat -> bitcoin is a crucial gateway which could pave way for various crimes if they aren't monitored. Similarly, monitoring of cex exchanges by the governments and banks just to know the people involved in bitcoin and issuing them legal notice aren't good too. This has happened in some parts of the world and few governments are trying to extract as much information as possible about crypto users in general for taxation purposes  In such a case, Bisq comes into play where users can transact however they want and can fund illegal activities using bitcoin in general. Dorsey being the founder and CEO of a famous social media would never be able to create an exchange similar to Bisq as it can pose various legal restrictions to the company behind tbDEX (Square).

If anyone who is gonna use Bitcoin for paying goods, will undergo KYC of tbDEX as that has been the common practice of many IMO but OTOH if anyone really concerned about privacy would be using coinmixers or atomic swaps of XMR or would stay with Bisq. Either way, here is a point which needs to be considered :

Our goal is not to maintain anonymity of transactions at all costs. Nor is it to undermine an individual’s ability to optimize for anonymity. Nothing in principle precludes anonymous transactions for financial privacy on the tbDEX network. A PFI could, in principle, require no VCs, but such transactions would represent a high degree of risk to the counterparties.”

I would indeed wait for the exchange to launch before any wild speculation guesses about anonymity and privacy!

[Japinat]

Then this is not a decentralized exchange at all. These days, we are not going to see a full decentralized exchange that would really pass on the real definition as even before when Binance launch their own DEX, we thought it's decentralized but we were just disappointed.

Jack Dorsey the CEO of Twitter is a very influential man, he won't risk his reputation by running a full DEX without following the government regulatory requirements, so this is just to hype his new project and to mislead people, the word DEX should never exist when there are some restrictions and rules to follow.

[Charles-Tim]

On a side note, we should probably start normalizing the use of the term non-custodial exchange instead of DEX but I can't think of a good abbreviation. NCEX?

On a side note, we should probably start normalizing the use of the term non-custodial exchange instead of DEX but I can't think of a good abbreviation. NCEX?

NDEX maybe? Or you can put them in a big umbrella such as Semi-DEX.

tbDEX may be custodial DEX (CDEX) while those like Bisq are noncustodial DEX (NDEX) and are the real DEX. But in my opinion, exchanges like tbDEX that requires for KYC are regulated, there would actually be ways to seize bitcoin or altcoins from users that re making use of the centralized service, so no full control while making use of the service, which makes it not decentralized. It is just a way to make cryptocurrencies more regulated.

Honestly I do believe it is more or less a PR stunt. But I won't be surprised considering many 'dex' already start doing this KYC stuff albeit not explicitly, such as banning people from US (from the IP address).

Hodlhold have it in their ToS of not allowing US citizens to perform trading on their platform, but people will likely use VPN to bypass it, but yet can still be said to be DEX to some extent. Unlike instant exchanges like ChangeNow and Changelley that are just instant exchanges but not decentralized at all but looking like they are decentralized while forcing some people to pass KYC after their coins have been seized.

---snipped---

But we should never that relaxed thinking KYC can be very useful and also it has downsides too. I still wonder why fiat with stringent KYC policies are still most used for illegal activities. I had a topic regarding how KYC can be deceitful if ignorant of the bad side, the ignorant people will only pass KYC but yet can be used against them if an exchange database was hacked and users data were stolen by hackers. And, yet, some malacious people are still passing KYC which can be used on some exchanges but too late after they successfully use it to scam some people or used for illegal activities.

[buwaytress]

Welcome to the world of crypto hyperbole. Here's the rule of thumb. If it's a word that never once appeared in the Bitcoin white paper, then it's probably no more than a buzzword used by hundreds of crypto projects to lend false credibility to and prop up what's otherwise a plain old moneygrab in another costume.

I like the idea of normalising the word custodial and non-custodial exchange, as that's what I've always said these are, really. Only that CEX and DEX have been so successfully promoted.

[tbct_mt2]

A decentralized exchange with owners and core members are well known by the community, governments are never truly decentralized.

With regulations and law enforcement from governments, they can be shut down any time. We never know what government will do with crypto exchanges.

I meant a decentralized exchange only really decentralized if it is decentralized technically and their team members are anonymous like satoshi.

[hatshepsut93]

Even truly decentralized exchanges like Bisq don't guarantee you against all the third party risks, because you're still dealing with centralized system that are banks. If you try to buy or sell a large amount of coins on DEX, bank will likely block such transaction and start asking questions. Some banks will close your account, because they view everything crypto-related as too risky.

DEX's are good for trading small amounts, but Bitcoin market just can't exist without centralized exchanges, DEXs can't support such large volumes.

[Fortify]

When I read the news that Twitter CEO has been planning to build a decentralized bitcoin exchange, I was thinking it would be like those that utilized trustless service. The white paper for the decentralized exchange (tbDEX) was released on the 19th of this month, yesterday. The far more decentralized bitcoin exchange known is Bisq while thinking tbDEX will be the second, but when I glanced through the white paper yesterday, it was completely otherwise.

On the fourth page of the white paper is verifiable credentials, which means anyone or any organization that will make use of the exchange service will have to go through verification and most likely identity verification. Which means the credential verification will consists of name, address, photo, identity cards like drivers license, nation ID card and international passport, or more.

Users that want to make use of tbDEX service would be able to connect their noncustododial wallet after passing KYC and be able to exchange one coin for the other with bitcoin, but only after KYC credentials have been submitted by users before they can be able to make use of the service. I do not see this other than what was proposed some months back in US, for US citizens that is making use of an exchange (centralized exchanges) to register their noncustododial wallet address.

Although, the advantage is that many people can use this means to exchange bitcoin to another altcoin, or exchange altcoin to bitcoin. And just after exchanging, the coin will be on trader's noncustodial wallet address on blockchain which still means, it is still someones keys and it is still the person's coins, but no privacy. Anyone that wants privacy will never make use of this exchange (tbDEX) for his privacy aspect.

But while making use of this type of KYC DEX exchanges like tbDEX, aside that having privacy is not possible, also very likely and possible that coins can be seized during trading just like on instant exchanges.

The silly thing is, people are primarily interested in the so-called decentralized exchange model to get away from the very idea of KYC. There are dozens of large scale and reasonably trusted exchanges out there to use already. It's almost solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but then he would never be able to make such a model without KYC because it would likely break financial laws and make him liable to all sorts of financial regulatory action. It almost feels like he is trying to do this because he can, rather than a large need by the general public. He has so much to lose if he takes the wrong steps so he is less lightly to make any revolutionary moves in this field.

[bL4nkcode]

as even before when Binance launch their own DEX, we thought it's decentralized but we were just disappointed.

That exchange was made only to make new/existing projects to migrate on Binance chain, nothing else. I don't know if there are still using the exchange aside from a binance fan.

Jack Dorsey the CEO of Twitter is a very influential man, he won't risk his reputation by running a full DEX without following the government regulatory requirements, so this is just to hype his new project and to mislead people, the word DEX should never exist when there are some restrictions and rules to follow.

Calling it DEX because it has one of the same feature like DEX?

If this tbDEX is requiring KYC then why people should use it if the exchange(s) they're currently using (/trusting) has almost the same features anyway?
The unique linking of the non-custodial wallet on tbDEX is somewhat comparable of the trust to CEX.

[dezoel]

Well, we can’t really tell why he decided that it was going to be like this. Twitter is a really huge platform, and the founder, Jack Dorsey is a very popular person . So imagine if he’s running a decentralized exchange, lately we have seen a few exchanges that are a bit decentralized having some kind of issues with the government.

And of course I’m referring to binance, and now they are switching to becoming a fully centralized exchange. So if Jack should create a platform that is decentralized, it is quite possible that in future he might happen to start having some kind of issues with the government if something should go wrong on the decentralized exchange. So whatever decision that they have made, I believe that it is for the best.

[mindrust]

When I read the news that Twitter CEO has been planning to build a decentralized bitcoin exchange,

...

On the fourth page of the white paper is verifiable credentials, which means anyone or any organization that will make use of the exchange service will have to go through verification and most likely identity verification. Which means the credential verification will consists of name, address, photo, identity cards like drivers license, nation ID card and international passport, or more.
...

KYC and DEX in the same sentence don't make sense. It is either DeX or not and in this case since KYC is a must, that is not a dex. Why do they ask for KYC? Because they will terminate your account if they don't like you. If they can terminate any account they want, how is that decentralized?

J. Dorsey may want to call this exchange decentralized but it is not going to make is a decentralized exchange and if you believe him that means you don't understand what decentralized means.

[Charles-Tim]

A decentralized exchange with owners and core members are well known by the community, governments are never truly decentralized.

To make this more accurate, governments are never decentralized at all, everything about governments are subjected to control.

With regulations and law enforcement from governments, they can be shut down any time. We never know what government will do with crypto exchanges.

Did you mean tbDEX? I don't think so. This is what many government officials have been looking for, a means to be able to link centralized users' accounts with their respective noncustodial wallets. This will make it more easy for them without passing it into law as it was difficult to pass such into law.

The silly thing is, people are primarily interested in the so-called decentralized exchange model to get away from the very idea of KYC.

Did you mean preferring privacy is stupid when the so called KYC is not effective enough to eliminate criminal activities? If KYC can
not eliminatee fiat based criminal activities (I mean online fiat based criminals activities included) while having privacy have its own advantages, then how is having privacy silly?

[pooya87]

It has been a trend. They think just because they call something "decentralized" that is enough. We have lots of cases like this, from centralized altcoins that call themselves decentralized to centralized market places making the same claim and to centralized exchanges!
The biggest lie of all DCEXes is Binance DEX in my opinion since it is fully centralized while claims otherwise!

[pawanjain]

How is it even a DEX if they are asking for KYC verification to use their so called DEX.
If they are storing KYC information and verifying it by themself then it is acting as a centralized entity for approval to a so called DEX.
Unless they change it to a no KYC platform or introduce some kind of verification method which doesn't require approval from a human we cannot call it a DEX.
This raises a question in my mind. Has there ever been a smart contract which does a KYC approval without the need of a human ?
I think if there is such kind of non-centralized verification method then it might help us achieve far more decentralization.

[wilber.erickson]

I still think will this be his private business or under his company?  Indeed, there is no clear connection between Twitter and the DEX project, but here it seems that Jack Dorsey as Twitter's CEO and his CFO have significant differences of opinion and views.

[DaveF]

It is an interesting concept, the exchange does not hold any funds and does not do much between the users. But it does kind of verify who the buyer and seller are. So all the wallets are held by the users.

Sounds kind of like Visa / MC. They don't hold the funds the peoples banks do. All Visa/MC do is pass the data along. And takes their cut.

But unlike most other DEX they are holding a bit of data about the users. Which probably makes all the compliance people happy.
We can all think it sucks, but in the end it's a US based business who has to follow some rules. We also don't have to use it if there are other alternatives.

It might not be the best or even good but more options are always better.

-Dave

[The Cryptovator]

I read the news title about Launching DEX from Twitter, but didn't read in detail nor read the white paper. If OP is right and this is the way to trade in tbDEX then I will call it semi-decentralized exchange. A true decentralized shouldn't have an account nor should ask for the KYC or any other personal details including email but not limited to. There are more DEX to trade, so nothing helpful from Jack Dorsey at all. This is just a business idea, not to help Bitcoin users. What's the problem is I use centralized since here we have to provide KYC to DEX? They also could block funds and centralized also could block the funds. Why we should take more hassle?  Most likely it will be just useless as OP said.