Ledger Nano S Plus

[Pmalek]

That's where I come in and mention open source code & code 'reuse' though: By Foundation forking off tried & tested ColdCard code, essentially large part of the Passport's codebase is already at least reasonably trustable to be secure.

If we can assume that Coldcard's code is secure enough and has been put under the microscope back and forth to look for vulnerabilities. I am not saying it hasn't, nor am I an expert in that department, but Coldcard is not even nearly as popular as Ledger and Trezor. I am sure that more security experts have looked at Trezor and Ledger, be it for the right or wrong reasons. Passport will surely add plenty of their own code and improvements in areas they didn't like with the Coldcard. Those new snippets will also need to be checked thoroughly. 

This is a general concept: if there was more collaboration of HW wallet manufacturers and developers, it would be possible to create a 'master firmware' for hardware wallets that everyone, also new companies, could use & hit the ground running. Beneficial for (new) businesses and users.

It's still business. And business is competition. Everyone wants to be on top and get the biggest piece of the pie. When it comes to money, the big fish will always go for the small fish. Reusing open-source code is a double-edged sword. You inherit the good, but you also inherit anything bad, assuming there is something bad. If a serious vulnerability gets found in Coldcard, and Passport uses the exact same code, users of both wallets would have problems until a fix is found.

[n0nce]

If we can assume that Coldcard's code is secure enough and has been put under the microscope back and forth to look for vulnerabilities.

Of course - it's not a safe bet or anything, just saying to take into consideration: 'old code' has always been seen more than 'new code' inherently.

Passport will surely add plenty of their own code and improvements in areas they didn't like with the Coldcard. Those new snippets will also need to be checked thoroughly. 

In my experience, to build from an existing codebase, you have to read a lot of it and build an understanding gradually; only when you reach the point where you fully understand it, you can really start meaningfully modifying it. This thorough analysis of the entire code often reveals bugs and programming errors, further enforcing my point to get more people developing and auditing a similar codebase rather than each making their own.

You inherit the good, but you also inherit anything bad, assuming there is something bad.

Unless you spot and fix it, but yes, true. The question is though if you wouldn't have made the similar (or another - maybe many other?) programming mistakes when doing it all from scratch.

If a serious vulnerability gets found in Coldcard, and Passport uses the exact same code, users of both wallets would have problems until a fix is found.

That's right: if you have one piece of software that everybody is running, you can hit many more users when you find a bug in it.
I believe this is the main counter-argument against my idea of a HW wallet firmware, but on the other hand, we're all running the exact same Bitcoin Core v22.0.... Just saying. Similarly, the Linux kernels of our nodes (and 99% of the internet infrastructure) are most probably all virtually identical. I'm not completely sure if that's good or bad honestly. Recent example of security hole in widely used software: Log4j..

[dkbit98]

However, your argument that the Nano S Plus shouldn't be bought because it's untested can be used for any hardware wallet or any piece of equipment that is brand-new. It can't be tested before it's developed and released to the general public. So, I would like to expand on your thought process and say that you shouldn't buy any new hardware wallet by Ledger, Trezor, Passport, (insert company name), for at least a few months to a year to give those who know what they are doing enough time to test it and try to break it. Those who can do it themselves, even better.  

I have the right to say what I want and I have valid reasons for my claims based on experience with their previous models of this company, especially model X that is very similar with upcoming S plus model.
I also don't recommend buying upcoming Coldcard mk4 that is not open source, and I even said similar thing for other hardware wallets, so I don't need to repeat that every time.
This is Ledger topic so I am speaking about ledger devices, and rushing to buy brand new device from whatever brand is not some I would so myself until I see some reviews.

This is a general concept: if there was more collaboration of HW wallet manufacturers and developers, it would be possible to create a 'master firmware' for hardware wallets that everyone, also new companies, could use & hit the ground running. Beneficial for (new) businesses and users.

It's not a bad idea in theory but it just wouldn't work in real life.
People have different ideas and sometimes they can start working together but split latter down the road.
I heard that coldcard has only one active developer, so it's just one man who doesn't want to work with others.

[Pmalek]

That's right: if you have one piece of software that everybody is running, you can hit many more users when you find a bug in it.
I believe this is the main counter-argument against my idea of a HW wallet firmware, but on the other hand, we're all running the exact same Bitcoin Core v22.0....

True, but Bitcoin Core isn't the only open-source Bitcoin software wallet. It is the main full-node client, yes. But if a serious bug gets discovered in Core, the same vulnerability wouldn't be present in Electrum, for example. Or any other client that doesn't use that exact code. If we had one widely accepted code or a piece of it replicated across multiple clients, we would have exactly that. A longer list of possible targets and victims. 

[n0nce]

That's right: if you have one piece of software that everybody is running, you can hit many more users when you find a bug in it.
I believe this is the main counter-argument against my idea of a HW wallet firmware, but on the other hand, we're all running the exact same Bitcoin Core v22.0....

True, but Bitcoin Core isn't the only open-source Bitcoin software wallet. It is the main full-node client, yes. But if a serious bug gets discovered in Core, the same vulnerability wouldn't be present in Electrum, for example. Or any other client that doesn't use that exact code. If we had one widely accepted code or a piece of it replicated across multiple clients, we would have exactly that. A longer list of possible targets and victims. 

Yeah, but do other full node programs exist? I don't think anything is widely used besides Bitcoin Core. A serious bug in Core would probably affect everyone, no matter if they use SPV clients or not - after all, those guys very much depend on full nodes. And in that field, there's not much diversification going on, to be honest.

[Pmalek]

Yeah, but do other full node programs exist? I don't think anything is widely used besides Bitcoin Core.

That's true. There are alternatives, but you hear very little discussion about them. Armory was mentioned in the past as one of them. Another one I heard about is Bitcoin Knots. The user cellard made a good list about some other clients in a post from 2018. I am quoting the part that mentions the Core alternatives:

The ones I know are:

Bitcoin Knots: This is developed by Luke Dash Jr and has some experimental features that sometimes are added into the Core client: https://github.com/bitcoinknots/bitcoin
Libbitcoin: I think this one was founded by Amir Taaki: https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin
BTCD: This one doesn't have a wallet and is written in Go: https://github.com/btcsuite/btcd
BitcoinJ: Very old client from back in the day, I think it was started by Mike Hearn: https://github.com/bitcoinj/bitcoinj (removed because not a full validating node)
Bitcore: Looks like Trezor uses this one, but also Bloq...: https://bitcore.io/
Bcoin: Some exchanges use this one like Bitwala: http://bcoin.io/
Gocoin: Written in Go: https://github.com/piotrnar/gocoin

   

A serious bug in Core would probably affect everyone, no matter if they use SPV clients or not - after all, those guys very much depend on full nodes.

I have no objections to this part. If most full nodes go down or suddenly become vulnerable, the entire network will be shaken and decentralization would take a serious hit. 

[tehrancrypto]

I have just seen that ledger is collecting emails for KEEPING YOU POSTED on Ledger Nano S Plus!
Would you guess they are going to discontinue Ledger Nano S.  This sentence gives you such a feeling:  "The World’s Most Popular Wallet Just Got Better."

You can see it all here: https://shop.ledger.com/pages/ledger-nano-s-plus

[dkbit98]

I have just seen that ledger is collecting emails for KEEPING YOU POSTED on Ledger Nano S Plus!
Would you guess they are going to discontinue Ledger Nano S.  This sentence gives you such a feeling:  "The World’s Most Popular Wallet Just Got Better."

Did you care to check before making a post that someone actually posted exact same information and link few days ago in this same topic?
We talked all about possible discontinuation for Ledger Nano S and I believe (only my speculation) this is going to happen very soon, like they did with all of their discontinued products Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
I wouldn't buy nono S plus myself, but I would test it if someone gave it to me for honest review and feedback.

[tehrancrypto]

[/quote]
Judging by its overall build quality, it has to be cheaper than what I initially thought it was going to be.
[/quote]


Reading all the comments, I have the feeling that this is not going to be a success for ledger!
I was personally thinking the price will end up somewhere around 70-80 euros.
As we see the price gonna be at old nano X price (e.g. 119 euros) - too much!!

I have just seen that ledger is collecting emails for KEEPING YOU POSTED on Ledger Nano S Plus!
Would you guess they are going to discontinue Ledger Nano S.  This sentence gives you such a feeling:  "The World’s Most Popular Wallet Just Got Better."

Did you care to check before making a post that someone actually posted exact same information and link few days ago in this same topic?
We talked all about possible discontinuation for Ledger Nano S and I believe (only my speculation) this is going to happen very soon, like they did with all of their discontinued products Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
I wouldn't buy nono S plus myself, but I would test it if someone gave it to me for honest review and feedback.

I would disagree to you as ledger nano s, it the best seller for them anyway-  if they simply going to replace S plus for double the price - they loose a major income. I do not think they are nowhere ready to go for it . Not in 2022.

Sorry for double posting !

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[SFR10]

Update:

Ledger just announced "Nano S Plus Genesis Edition ^{[you can still watch the recorded version]}" a couple of hours ago and surprisingly, it's just 79€ instead of what two of their official resellers were showing "at the time"!

• Shipping starts from 21st of March
• The Genesis edition is limited to the "first 10,000 buyers or rather orders"!
• It'll come with "POAP NFT and the Genesis engraving".
• 1.5 Mb

Btw, Nano S will be discontinued when their stock finishes at some point in either the middle or end of this year!

[dkbit98]

Ledger just announced "Nano S Plus Genesis Edition ^{[you can still watch the recorded version]}" a couple of hours ago and surprisingly, it's just 79€ instead of what two of their official resellers were showing "at the time"

79 euros is not a bad price for pre-ordering, and it appears that ''insider'' seller from Iran was wrong about his price predictions he made some time ago
I am not going to buy this device, but I can't wait to see first comments and complains on ledger reddit channel.
Maybe I got everything wrong and this new device is going to work perfectly fine.

Btw, Nano S will be discontinued when their stock finishes at some point in either the middle or end of this year!

Adios nono S.
Can you tell me who said something like this will happen, and was my prediction wrong or what?  
My next prediction is that ledger assholes are going to make old nono S unusable for anything  in near future.
Watch and correct me if I made a mistake

Hint:

Nano S could soon be discontinued

[SFR10]

79 euros is not a bad price for pre-ordering, and it appears that ''insider'' seller from Iran was wrong about his price predictions he made some time ago

Exactly, I think it's a fair price... I completely forgot about the user ^{[with multiple accounts]} who had internal sources

I am not going to buy this device, but I can't wait to see first comments and complains on ledger reddit channel.
Maybe I got everything wrong and this new device is going to work perfectly fine.

I think I'm going to change my mind again and get one of these, but I still prefer to not order/pre-order it directly ^{[this may sound weird, but the only other option for me, is to get it from one of Trezor's official resellers that also sells Ledger products]}.

Can you tell me who said something like this will happen, and was my prediction wrong or what?

@iancr mentioned it earlier in their "live stream ^{[from 5:55 to 7:01]}" and you correctly predicted it

My next prediction is that ledger assholes are going to make old nono S unusable for anything  in near future.

Unfortunately, I think that'd be the outcome as well.

[m2017]

My next prediction is that ledger assholes are going to make old nono S unusable for anything  in near future.
Watch and correct me if I made a mistake

I want to argue with you and put forward my argument that this will not happen. At least not now. If the Ledger stops supporting their wallets too abruptly (for a minute, and these are millions of devices sold), then millions of users will be outraged and raise a howl. There will be too many disgruntled and aggressive people who will flood all reddits and forums with their anger. I doubt company management would allow this, especially since they screwed up a few times with leaked databases. This will create an excess of negativity towards company.

Although in theory and in practice (remember past models), I admit the scenario that the company will no longer support old models.

p.s. In fact, I don't know what the Ledger's plans are and don't have insider information. This is just my guess.

[Pmalek]

Ledger just announced "Nano S Plus Genesis Edition ^{[you can still watch the recorded version]}" a couple of hours ago and surprisingly, it's just 79€ instead of what two of their official resellers were showing

The price is OK. I am glad it's not overpriced, but it's not on the top of my shopping list when it comes to hardware wallets for other reasons. It's actually a bit more than €79. When you factor in shipping and VAT, the total price is closer to €90. The shop is showing me €88,52 if I wanted to order it to my current location.

Btw, Nano S will be discontinued when their stock finishes at some point in either the middle or end of this year!

Yeah, they confirmed that once they sell whatever is left of their stock, it won't be produced anymore. I hope they won't stop maintaining it, fixing bugs, and security issues if they pop up. 

[SFR10]

It's actually a bit more than €79. When you factor in shipping and VAT, the total price is closer to €90. The shop is showing me €88,52 if I wanted to order it to my current location.

You're right, but it seems that they're offering "free shipping" to those who order more than a single unit ^{[only the Nano X has free shipping on single orders]}.
^{- I do know it's not going to benefit everyone, but it could count as a workaround [except for the VAT part].}

I hope they won't stop maintaining it, fixing bugs, and security issues if they pop up. 

Judging by how "ian" responded to some of the questions yesterday, I don't think they'd be offering the above things for more than a year after they stop its production ^{[I hope I'm wrong]}.

[dkbit98]

I want to argue with you and put forward my argument that this will not happen. At least not now. If the Ledger stops supporting their wallets too abruptly (for a minute, and these are millions of devices sold), then millions of users will be outraged and raise a howl.

So what if they sold millions of nono S devices, they want to sell millions again and this time with nono S plus.
They don't even have to directly stop supporting model S, they can just make all coin apps with much bigger size and say it was mandatory for ''security'' and ''safety''.
Learning from their past behavior we know they will also stop supporting and making github updates for old model, and since it's closed source shit nobody can contribute from community.
Next thing they can do is to give some weird discount for all owner of old models, but you would still need to send them your personal information and I don't want to do that because I still remember data leak.

Judging by how "ian" responded to some of the questions yesterday, I don't think they'd be offering the above things for more than a year after they stop its production ^{[I hope I'm wrong]}.

They have more ''important'' things to do, like adding more shitcoins, nft crap support, making videos and paying celebrities to shill.
If they can't even fix bloody version X for months, how can we expect from them to support their old devices.

[m2017]

I want to argue with you and put forward my argument that this will not happen. At least not now. If the Ledger stops supporting their wallets too abruptly (for a minute, and these are millions of devices sold), then millions of users will be outraged and raise a howl.

So what if they sold millions of nono S devices, they want to sell millions again and this time with nono S plus.
They don't even have to directly stop supporting model S, they can just make all coin apps with much bigger size and say it was mandatory for ''security'' and ''safety''.
Learning from their past behavior we know they will also stop supporting and making github updates for old model, and since it's closed source shit nobody can contribute from community.
Next thing they can do is to give some weird discount for all owner of old models, but you would still need to send them your personal information and I don't want to do that because I still remember data leak.

Now I understand better what you wanted to say. Some details contributed to this.
Making more profit is not surprising for a commercial company. They just use to their fullest the goose that lays the golden eggs. It surprises and annoys me how Ledger try to make life difficult for their customers. The methods they use are not worthy of respect. Moreover, they leave no choice to their customers and force them to make unreasonable purchases. This is wrong and should be condemned.

dkbit98 doing the right thing by giving information about Ledger and helping to look at their activities from an unpleasant angle.

Judging by how "ian" responded to some of the questions yesterday, I don't think they'd be offering the above things for more than a year after they stop its production ^{[I hope I'm wrong]}.

They have more ''important'' things to do, like adding more shitcoins, nft crap support, making videos and paying celebrities to shill.
If they can't even fix bloody version X for months, how can we expect from them to support their old devices.

After what you've said, only dastardly marketing gimmicks can be expected from them. For their future buyers, this should be a reason to think.

[LTU_btc]

Well, €79 for Nano Plus S isn't bad price. Ok, it's a bit more with VAT and shipping, but still, somewhere in the middle between Nano Sand Nano X. Though, maybe it's not worth to compare in such way as we probably should count Nano S Plus as replacment for Nano S. IIRC, Nano S price in past was vsomewhat similar to €79 or maybe a bit bigger.

Btw, Nano S will be discontinued when their stock finishes at some point in either the middle or end of this year!

I'm curious, did they announced it officially? Did they said it during announcement livestream? Whole fact that they discontinue Nano S is not something unexpected, it had to happen sooner or later. Now it's only question for how long they will continue to support this device and give updates.

[SFR10]

They have more ''important'' things to do, like adding more shitcoins, nft crap support, making videos and paying celebrities to shill.
If they can't even fix bloody version X for months, how can we expect from them to support their old devices.

That's a valid argument ^{[regardless of some of its issues not being software and firmware related]} and I'm already feeling sorry for those who have it.

I'm curious, did they announced it officially? Did they said it during announcement livestream?

Yes, it was during a live stream:

• @iancr mentioned it earlier in their "live stream ^{[from 5:55 to 7:01]}"
  

While I was scrolling through the Nano S Plus topic in their subreddit, I stumbled upon a feature that's not available in the Nano X: The ability to "run your own apps on the S+"
^{- Personally, I have mixed feelings about it!}

[Pmalek]

While I was scrolling through the Nano S Plus topic in their subreddit, I stumbled upon a feature that's not available in the Nano X: The ability to "run your own apps on the S+"
^{- Personally, I have mixed feelings about it!}

As long as the person knows what they are doing, it's not a bad thing. If you are a developer, I assume this feature would allow you to create your own app for a coin that is not supported on Ledger for example. Or you can create something you think works better. This is of course an advanced feature and not something ordinary people should play around with.

Actually, many of the apps already supported on the HW are already developed by various crypto communities. They are not all made by Ledger. They have their Ledger Developer Portal that helps with getting your app tested and approved.