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And the issue is that it is looking like most people have not really understand how bitcoin works because it is meant for us to make profit from when it is done currently because what reasons do you think people will want to invest in bitcoin if not for the money because that is just the picture and a lot of people are doing that because they already hear a lot of things about bitcoin which have made them interested and another good reasons instead of saving money in banks without making anything from saving money and investing in bitcoin comes with something in return.
The main driving force that makes people invest in Bitcoin is to make profits (regardless of their technical understanding of Bitcoin) and the potential for higher returns than conventional bank savings.
What are you presuming the timeline to be for these expected "profits" that are higher than bank rates? Are you sure that you are really referring to investing? or is the guys who are focused on profits (as you proclaim everyone to be) going to cash out of their bitcoin as soon as they either hit a target "profit" level or if they they see that the "profits" are dropping, so then they are going to get out of bitcoin "while they are still in profits?"
I think that you are a bit distracted in your attempt to consider bitcoin in terms of relative "profits."
Although Bitcoin cannot be used as a means of payment like fiat money in general, its existence is not illegal.
Do you know what is bitcoin? Have you ever held bitcoin on a private wallet? What is stopping bitcoin from being used as a means of payment or as a means to directly transfer value from one person to another?
Lightning network is another way that is considered to be "holding" and/or using bitcoin, and are you familiar with lightning network?
I am not sure if you actually know bitcoin or if you are just spouting out some nonsense that you had heard some other ill-informed person say.
We might be able to consider bitcoin in terms of various third-party custodians, too.. even though it can be problematic to consider third party custodians as actual bitcoin, even though there are quite a few of them that provide means (and perhaps even incentives?) for transfers to happen within their platforms from one member of the platform to another member of the platform, even though the transfer might not end up being carried out over the bitcoin network but instead over the ledger of the platform.
Investors decision to choose Bitcoin to seek much better returns than conventional bank interest or other assets, especially when Bitcoin price managed to reach a new ATH. Bitcoin can also be relied upon as a safe asset that is protected from the decline in purchasing power due to inflation.
There is nothing wrong with an assessment that bitcoin is a sounder money and so it is not losing purchasing power in the same kinds of ways that various fiats are losing purchasing power, even though at the same time, many bitcoiners' recognize and appreciate that there exists a certain level of dilution of bitcoin's supply that is perpetrated by various 3rd party custodians who quite likely do not come even close to having the quantity of bitcoin that they proclaim to have and so there are some senses that various paper bitcoin products are overly diluting the bitcoin supply, and at the same time, it can be a bit frustrating to recognize and appreciate that some of the entities diluting bitcoin's supply are not being punished for their behaviors (by the market or otherwise punished).
In addition, their main motivation for choosing Bitcoin is due to its high growth potential as it is considered as digital gold and enthusiasm for blockchain technology despite its high volatility risk. Bitcoin's functionality also differs from other traditional assets in that it is easily traded through various platforms, thus providing high accessibility for retail investors.
You are not wrong with this portion of your discussion, even though you may well need to figure out how to distinguish between the use of third-party services versus actually using bitcoin, and it seems to me that you may well be lacking in your own personal experiences that involve actual bitcoin rather than your accepting third-party custodial bitcoin as if it were the same as real bitcoin, even though surely there are probably some third-party custodians who are way more responsible in their custodial responsibilities (in terms of not distorting bitcoin's supply or manipulating bitcoin's supply) as compared with others.
One way seems to be to do this because otherwise it's difficult to achieve profits. Most people who achieve profits still use long-term methods and the ownership we have in accumulating Bitcoin will be beneficial for someone who consistently accumulates Bitcoin.
Behind the long-term approach it's certainly true, as you mentioned that someone shouldn't just use 5-10 years. Health should also be considered. Sometimes when someone's health starts to weaken, that timeframe isn't necessary for someone to wait for a predetermined time to invest. Age also affects performance especially as long-term performance can lead to depletion of health.
It's true that Bitcoin is best approached with a long-term mindset. However the health issues I mentioned earlier are also logical. This isn't to justify my own statement but age significantly influences our performance in Bitcoin investing. Long-term results will certainly be better which will benefit those who use this approach.
There is an important point you have said . But I think It is not right to judge everyone with the same way . Some start Bitcoin at the age of 25. Some at 45 or 60. Someone has strong income and other has weak. Some have more dependents or other has health issues. So the investing process will not be the same for everyone. So here Many people make mistake. They think that investing in Bitcoin means everyone has to follow the same year planning . The matter is not that simple. Long term mindset is useful indeed. But practical plan will always depend on your age, health, income stability, expenses, back up funds
If someone is young. Income comes steadily. Responsibilities are not so much for him like multiple member are doing job or has different type of income source . And he has ability to invest 4 to 10 years or longer time. Then he can usually accumulate slowly and steady . He can do Regular DCA And build a strong emergency fund. The main work of such people is to build strong holding No short term profit. But if someone is older Let's say 55 or 60+ . Health condition is uncertain and job retirement is near then The same aggressive accumulation formula may not always fit for him as young 25 old guy did . His long term mindset will be on way But timeline and aggressiveness will be adjusted as his age and income flow . An other way that if some one has a low income, he can start with $20 or $30 weekly. If someone has a high income, he can make $200 weekly or more. Sustainability is the main important things here.
Even though you (@Saltysugar99) pointed out that it is likely that older guys are going to tend to have higher incomes than younger guys, you seem to be glossing over that older guys are likely to have quite a bit of variance in terms of how much they had already invested in traditional investments prior to their coming to bitcoin, and even if their prior investments might or might not have had done well, it is quite likely that older guys could end up greatly front-loading their stake into bitcoin rather than wherever they have their value (frequently referred to as reallocating), and even if some folks might be reluctant to sell one investment into another (into bitcoin), the fact that they potentially have a considerably decent amount of value in some other non-bitcoin investments, they potentially could be in a position to be way more aggressive than the younger person who does not have any or hardly any resources outside of his regular income.
So for example, younger persons might ONLY be able to invest 5% to 15% of their income, except maybe some of the guys with real high discretionary income might be able to get their investment size as high as 25% of their income.
It can be possible that some of the older guys could end up putting 10 0% to 300% of their annual income into bitcoin over 1-2 years or some other level of relatively high aggressiveness.. so that even though we consider investment timelines for any investments to be 4-10 years or longer, some of the older investors (and they might not even be considered as rich.. just normal folks who had built up some assets/investment over the years) could greatly establish their position in bitcoin in a matter of just a year or two... so maybe such older guys still are not putting themselves into overaccumulation status exactly, but they are able to get their bitcoin position to a decently large target size and then just to wait it out one or two cycles without really adding any more value to their bitcoin position (except maybe merely on dips from time to time).
By the way, even though I acknowledge that there can be a considerable mix of elderly folks in terms of the amount of wealth that they had been able to accumulate in their youth, there are also going to be some guys who never really ended up saving anything at all, even though they are in their 50s or 60s, there is almost no way that they could survive even 6 months (whether through their own resources or getting help from family/friends) without continuing to work.. and sometimes it might not even be completely their own fault, since there can be a variety of reasons that guys might not have any resources, even though they are getting into the years in which they may well be having physical and/or even psychological difficulties in being able to be productive in any kind of regular work..
Suppose there are two person. One is 28 years old and Has a steady job. Emergency fund is slowly building. He has also some extra money monthly. The best approach for him may be to buy regularly for years. Not to bother much with price fluctuations. Because his biggest advantage is time. Another is 60 years old health is not good , income is irregular and he is depends on other member of his family . A smarter approach for him might be smaller allocation. Maybe less aggressive Bitcoin buying. Because his biggest advantage is not time he needs flexibility.
You are correct in your recognition that several older guys might not be able to realistically lock up very much value for 4-10 years or longer, and they might not even have confidence in their ability to project out that they are not going to need that money for 4-10 years or longer based on their current income sources and like you already mentioned in your example such guy is already relying on family members.
Then just think about is another 40 year old business owner. Income is sometimes high and low. For him, a mixed system might be better than a rigid fixed DCA. Small DCA regularly and extra buys when business cashflow come extra . This is how proper investing process is matched to personal situation.
This sounds correct... If guys have businesses that have erratic income and/or expenses, then they likely need to maintain higher levels of back up funds, and they can still invest into bitcoin regularly (such as every week), but they likely have to keep some reserve funds that are dedicated towards ongoing bitcoin buys.
So a better way to think is The right process for Bitcoin investing depends on the whole picture like Age, Health ,Income, Cashflow, other investments (and/or already established bitcoin stash size) and Back up funds matter.
Fixed that for you. There are young and old folks who might have various other assets/investments, and some assets/investments are more liquid than others.. and some investments might be costing more money than they are producing (properties, for example - or maybe ownership in a business).
And how much can you buy without putting yourself in a weak position. Here you are young so you will be brave or someone will be scared as they are little older. Whatever your situation, you just have to invest in Bitcoin realistically. It is important to keep the investment consistent. And to make a plan that matches your personal lifestyle and situation.
There may be times in which guys might purposefully push more aggressiveness or less aggressiveness based on their cashflow situation and/or based on other things that they might have going on with their lives in terms of where they are at and where they expect to be within some reasonably foreseeable future (such as 3-6 months down the road), and many times, there are more urgencies in regards to what is going on within the next several months as compared with projecting cashflows 3-5 years in the future. There can be good habits to project out cashflows into the future in order to lessen the likelihood that guys end up going overboard in one direction or another in terms of their bitcoin investment and/or in terms of their cashflow management practices.
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The reason for this discussion is to help educate beginners to know the basic knowledge of starting Bitcoin investment and also inform them to start small and for them to hold for long term.
I think that the purpose of this discussion is for all levels, even though if we are establishing a bitcoin investment, we need to get through our BTC accumulation phase first, and so it seems that a lot of guys who participate in this thread are still in their accumulation phase - even though some guys might be further along than others.
By the way, even though institutions and governments tend to have various other tools at their disposal, there can still be quite a few applicable bitcoin investing principles and cashflow management principles in this thread that would also apply to institutions and/or governments.
What reasons do you think people will want to invest in bitcoin if not for the money
There are several other reasons why people can invest in bitcoin apart from the profit aspect of it. People can invest in bitcoin for privacy, fast payment, cross border transactions. The main intention of bitcoin invention wasn’t for profit making this profit making came along the line as adoption keeps growing.
You are completely correct @New Judgement with your list of other bitcoin attributes and that profit making is not the ONLY aspect of bitcoin, and for sure, when we are considering investing into bitcoin and carrying out various investment analysis and practices, we are not necessarily maniacally focused upon "profits" as many narrow-minded folks want to simplistically frame bitcoin as if "profits" were the ONLY motive.
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Michael Saylor the head of the world's first corporate Bitcoin holder "strategy" is strategically increasing his Bitcoin stack not only for profit. This is a successful example for Bitcoin and the application of financial freedom where investors can use Bitcoin as a complement to fiat in an irrelevant situation.
Even though Saylor/MSTR has figured out some clever ways to use other people's money to accumulate bitcoin and potentially some of the other folks are able to make money through various MSTR products, I doubt that it is a fair representation to proclaim that "financial freedom" is coming from Saylor/MSTR's financializations of bitcoin and exploitation of bitcoin (and the current debt system that MSTR/Saylor is taking advantage of).
It is problematic to be praising Saylor/MSTR - even though surely over the past nearly 6 years, MSTR/Saylor has been advocating for a certain vision of bitcoin, even though a lot of the freedoms of bitcoin come through bitcoin's being directly used and being able to be directly used without 3-rd party intermediaries.
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BITCOIN has so many uses and I suppose it's dependent on the perspective that the persons seems ideal for him or her but saying that Bitcoin cannot be used as a means of payment is totally off the picture although specifying that it can't be used like fiat well I guess that's totally different since Fiat money are controlled by a center force which drives every transaction where as Bitcoin is a decentralized chain.
I have read so many important knowledge put here and other places by the genius jayjuangee and I believe his teaching has let so many persons here too know the basics that follows Bitcoin and all you can think of when it comes to Bitcoin use and one of those knowledge I believe is that not everyone actually hold Bitcoin for the sole aim of profit making although in a broader picture profit is still the end game of everything but I believe there are lots of individual that actually use Bitcoin to store their wealth just because of the inflation rate that affects the Fiat money and it has turned out to be a very brilliant move because it would be stupid saving tons of millions of dollars in fiat knowing fully well that one day that same money won't be having same value proportion as to when you actually kept it but with Bitcoin your money escapes every power of inflation and the value even increases rather than decrease ahead of the years you kept it.
Even though you (@Jaycoinz) seem to recognize various uses of bitcoin that are outside of the "profits" framework, you still seem to be placing a lot of framing emphasis on ways we might "profit," and tend to think that it is problematic to narrow our focus in such a way, since it will likely lead to wrong short-term assessments. There is some aspects of bitcoin that revolve around integrity and utility - whether we are talking about the self-sovereignty angles or even the attempts to improve the incentive systems (sound money) of governmental fiat and/or debt systems.
There also may be some angle of investing in bitcoin that suggests that it is just the right thing to do, which is not necessarily self-ish profits but instead systemic profits... so many times investors in bitcoin can have profit motivations that are coupled with motivations of integrity, and it seems to lessen and or to denigrate some of the motives to suggest that they are merely based on "profits."
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..... if every investor do there research well they should not be to hasty to invest theg should make sure they do there research before they start.
If a person with common sense has figured out that he has enough discretionary funds to get started buying bitcoin, then what is it that he needs to research before he starts investing into bitcoin?
You think that a guy with common sense is not able to figure out position size and then research later on? or he has to research first?
From your perspective, in what way are you presuming the guy to be deficient in his already existing knowledge of "common sense"?? What is it that he researching, exactly?
