JJG’s Outline of Bitcoin Investment Ideas

[cyberninja2]

you need to know that profit is not a guarantee in bitcoin due to its high volatile nature, even though it has potential to generate profit but it does not mean that it is certain and guaranteed because you can still lose the investment as a result of bitcoins volatility. the only thing i can assure you is that if you are regularly following and investing with the dca you will be able to accumulate a decent amount of bitcoin to your portfolio and also reach your accumulation target or even over accumulation and hold for long term purposes which for me i feel is the biggest win for every long term investor being able to accumulate reasonable and decent amount of bitcoin and reach their accumulation target and hold for 5-10 years or more.

As long as we still believe in the guarantee it certainly doesn't matter to others because everything is done solely with what someone earns themselves. So I don't think we need to hinder the desires of people who sometimes still want to continue buying Bitcoin as a long-term investment.

Everyone's thoughts will not be the same so when someone who has more sources of income and feels sufficient for the needs spent of course this is not a problem especially if they do it in the long term they certainly do not think about the guarantee as soon as possible for what they have done because they do it like that because they believe in their own guarantee in investing Bitcoin with a duration of time that sometimes has never been done by other people or parties so everything they do depends on the belief they have in what they do with a time that is sometimes set 5-8 years in making their Bitcoin investment which sometimes within that period they will succeed in achieving what they want in accumulating Bitcoin investments that become their own ownership.

[samadam007]

Continuity is the goal when it comes to DCA so that you will be able to know the advantages of using the DCA method because when you know how to make use of DCA, because the usage matters a lot and no matter what the condition might be DCA is always ready for you and it will make the thing easy, and when the strategy is properly used then there is no way that you wont get your results that is just one of the benefits.

DCA can make the investing easier for an investor, but that does not guarantee profit. We cannot predict anything about it because the market can go up and down all the time. So saying that you will get results using DCA is not enough, DCA only help you to avoid some kind of prediction and timing the market and growing your investment for a long term, not as a way that guarantee a return.

There is definitely some certainty in Bitcoin investment if you buy Bitcoin during the rising price, you will still save on the purchase price of Bitcoin just because of following the DCA method. And again if you buy Bitcoin when the price is falling, you will still save a lot on the purchase price.
Because the DCA method helps you to buy more Bitcoin and if Bitcoin is consolidated, it definitely provides the opportunity or guarantee to profit. Because the price of Bitcoin is not fixed, which is why following the DCA method gives more certainty to profit.

you need to know that profit is not a guarantee in bitcoin due to its high volatile nature, even though it has potential to generate profit but it does not mean that it is certain and guaranteed because you can still lose the investment as a result of bitcoins volatility. the only thing i can assure you is that if you are regularly following and investing with the dca you will be able to accumulate a decent amount of bitcoin to your portfolio and also reach your accumulation target or even over accumulation and hold for long term purposes which for me i feel is the biggest win for every long term investor being able to accumulate reasonable and decent amount of bitcoin and reach their accumulation target and hold for 5-10 years or more.

Bitcoin has dropped multiple times in the past and people who bought at the top panicked and lost a lot. But I think saying “the only thing you can assure is just accumulating Bitcoin with DCA” is a bit overcautious. Many long term holders who went in earlier by putting in huge amounts at once have seen massive growth over the years, not just a decent amount. Research has also shown that this method of investing has beaten DCA most of the time in Bitcoin history.

DCA is excellent for discipline and hitting your accumulation target without stress, but it’s not always the absolute best for huge returns. Both strategies work at the end of the day only if you invest what you can afford to lose and hold for many years.

[Showlove01]

Continuity is the goal when it comes to DCA so that you will be able to know the advantages of using the DCA method because when you know how to make use of DCA, because the usage matters a lot and no matter what the condition might be DCA is always ready for you and it will make the thing easy, and when the strategy is properly used then there is no way that you wont get your results that is just one of the benefits.

DCA can make the investing easier for an investor, but that does not guarantee profit. We cannot predict anything about it because the market can go up and down all the time. So saying that you will get results using DCA is not enough, DCA only help you to avoid some kind of prediction and timing the market and growing your investment for a long term, not as a way that guarantee a return.

There is definitely some certainty in Bitcoin investment if you buy Bitcoin during the rising price, you will still save on the purchase price of Bitcoin just because of following the DCA method. And again if you buy Bitcoin when the price is falling, you will still save a lot on the purchase price.
Because the DCA method helps you to buy more Bitcoin and if Bitcoin is consolidated, it definitely provides the opportunity or guarantee to profit. Because the price of Bitcoin is not fixed, which is why following the DCA method gives more certainty to profit.

you need to know that profit is not a guarantee in bitcoin due to its high volatile nature, even though it has potential to generate profit but it does not mean that it is certain and guaranteed because you can still lose the investment as a result of bitcoins volatility. the only thing i can assure you is that if you are regularly following and investing with the dca you will be able to accumulate a decent amount of bitcoin to your portfolio and also reach your accumulation target or even over accumulation and hold for long term purposes which for me i feel is the biggest win for every long term investor being able to accumulate reasonable and decent amount of bitcoin and reach their accumulation target and hold for 5-10 years or more.

How do you mean someone can lose an investment in Bitcoin? Because I don't see that as possible for someone to lose their investment in Bitcoin unless the said investor has a short term mindset which is trading but if the investor has a long term mindset there is no way they will lose their investment unless Bitcoin crash which we don't anticipate for that to happen. It is impossible for someone to hit their overaccumulation stage without seeing a significant changes in their portfolio unless their target is very small.

[ZeroVinsonN]

[edited out]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you that the interest rate of a loan is very important, it makes more sense that a smaller loan with a high interest rate can end up costing more over time than a bigger loan with a much lower interest rate, so it makes sense to focus on paying off the high interest loan first rather than on which is higher.
But my point is that the total amount of debt still matters too, not just the interest rate, for example, even if someone has a loan with a low interest rate, if the total amount is very large, it can still put a lot of pressure on them, they still have to make regular payments, and that can affect how much money they have left every month If they are paying in installments on a monthly basis, if for any reason something goes wrong that large debt can quickly become a serious problem, even if the interest rate is low, that's why I was saying people shouldn't rush into investing, especially when they already have a lot of debt.
In real life, things don't always go as planned, if someone is investing while also trying to settle their debts, and their back up fund isn't capable of handling things if their income stops or reduces, they might be forced to sell their investment just to keep up with paying their debt, that could mean selling at a loss, which puts them in a worse position.

For sure, each person has to figure out how to deal with their financial situation and the extent to which they can start to invest into bitcoin from where they are at and if the debt looming over their head might need to be dealt with first, and surely some guys might not have had realistically assessed the risks that might exist within the amount of debt that they had already ended up building up.. and perhaps their having had accumulated so much debt also shows that they have some of their own problematic personality issues in that they might not either be able to control their wants and/or to properly measure how they are going to deal with them into the future.

It is very likely that they in debt because they lack simple control on their wants and ended up taking loan to indulge themselves, if this is the case I don't see that person making any good improvements on investing in bitcoin, if they can't control what pushes them to take out loans then they probably won't be able to control themselves from taking out of their bitcoin investment if they ever fell the need to indulge themselves again, it's easier to deal with if the loan was taken for something important that could not be avoided like something their backup funds couldn't handle probably because they haven't saved up enough yet, things like this happen.

I get your point that some guys might have character flaws and they might not realize the difference between using debt for consumption and using debt for investment, so there can be some better uses of debt.   No matter the reason there can be ways to deal with the debt, and yeah, maybe some guys are not able to overcome their already existing character flaws an their inabilities to control their consumption.

So, yeah, they might both need to identify that they have issues and they might also need to get their consumption under control.

It's essentially similar to how a person can not accumulate sensibly accumulate bitcoin without discretionary income (unless they want to ruin their finance) they will need to be able to keep their impulses in check first, else they might end up taking even more loan that will eventually even lead to them selling their bitcoin if they've already stated accumulating, in order to be able to accumulate and hold long term a person needs to be able to control how much they spend unnecessarily.

It might not even be their debt, people inherit more than assets these days and having to pay off a debt you inherited can be a serious drag and depending on how much it's taking from you (the investor) to service they might not be able to accumulate bitcoin at the time (though if they still have discretionary income left over then they can buy, not as much as they would without the debt but it's probably better than nothing) until the debt is settled.

Sure.  There could be cases in which they end up with more debt than they wished that they had, and they had not even caused the debt, yet they end up with responsibility over such debt, to the extent that they are not able to negotiate some ways to get out of the debt.  There surely can be various aspects of the lives of different people that are not fair, even though they have to try to figure out the better ways of attempting to deal with the circumstances that they find themselves in.

Provided that they have enough to time to pay back the loan debt and the interest rate isn't that high then they can still accumulate bitcoin, it's regrettable that something they did not plan for is what's ultimately delaying their bitcoin investment but until that debt is cleared their assets will also still be at risk, it might take time but clearing the debt will be essential before they can fully lock-in on accumulating bitcoin.

So we might consider the possibility that guys who had got themselves into such a position might have some issues to improve their own cashflow management practices and their distinguishing between wants and needs.. and there could be guys who might realize, once they really assess the situation, that they need to take some drastic moves to lower their absolute level of debt - even though there could be ways to deal with the debt and to invest into bitcoin at the same time, depending on the severity of the matter and even the extent to which back up funds are in place (as you mentioned).  A guy who has such outstanding debt, he likely should be engaging in a practice to keep higher levels of back up funds and also trying to figure out ways to increase his discretionary income by increasing his income and/or cutting his expenses.

If the debt is personal then servicing it would be easier since the debt was expected, if it's to be paid in installments as most loans are then depending on how much they are to pay in the stipulated periods of time they could definitely still accumulate bitcoin, if they are servicing the loan from their discretionary income and it's taking about 70% in installments then they still have about 30% for other things,(although I don't quite believe they will be servicing the loan with their discretionary income, at that point that expense is essential and they can only tell if they have any discretionary income available after paying the loan and paying for other essentials, even though they are still paying in installments) we can't expect them to invest all in bitcoin but they are still in a good position to be able to keep up with their investment while still paying back then loan, and like you said they can get more discretionary income by increasing their income or cutting down on their expenses

Many times loans (or installments) are not part of discretionary expenses, unless there might be some degree that the amounts might be negotiable or the timelines for payment and/or the fees.  So, loan repayment may have a certain level of priority, even though I mentioned that there could also be options for extra payments to the extent that some loans might have higher interest rates and then an incentive for person to pay the higher interest rate loans first.

There also could be situations that loans are so burdensome that default seems the better of options, and surely there can be costs to default that might not be worth undergoing, so guys might consider the extent to which default might be a reasonable option that they might want to consider.

If the loan was a relatively small one then it's viable for it's payment to come from their discretionary income, it's basically matter of choice, does the person want to treat it as a essential expense or will they just decide to clear it through their discretionary income.
If there is a collateral involved then defaulting the loan will depend entirely on how how much the person wants to keep the property, sometimes people can decide to let the property go rather than having to pay the loan back but this is not the case in most of the times, usually the collateral is worth more than the loan, with time on their hands it might make more sense to sell the property and pay off the loan from there if that's possible rather than defaulting and losing the property.

[Bright0515]

How do you mean someone can lose an investment in Bitcoin? Because I don't see that as possible for someone to lose their investment in Bitcoin unless the said investor has a short term mindset which is trading but if the investor has a long term mindset there is no way they will lose their investment unless Bitcoin crash which we don't anticipate for that to happen. It is impossible for someone to hit their overaccumulation stage without seeing a significant changes in their portfolio unless their target is very small.

Yes if you are planning to invest into Bitcoin for long term your chances of making profits will increase but that doesn't mean you have guarantee to make profits. DCA strategy helps us to be discipline and to consistent with accumulating Bitcoin but it doesn't guarantee us profits either. Let's say for instance you are planning to invest for 5 years and you have already accumulate Bitcoin for just 4 years and based on the volatility nature of Bitcoin, it price dropped so low all of a sudden for a very long period of time your Bitcoin portfolio will eventually lose some weight because Bitcoin volatility doesn't look what strategy you are using or how long you have invest into Bitcoin. If you always believe so and you share the same information on the bold part of your statement with people around you, a no coiner might think Bitcoin investment is 100% safe because you don't talk about the risk or the volatility nature of Bitcoin. One important thing you should have in mind is that DCA strategy and long term plan does not result to panic selling, secondly it does not remove the risks involved on Bitcoin volatility.
So all I'm just trying to say here is that DCA strategy or long term investment doesn't guarantee your success.

[Taricoins]

. One important thing you should have in mind is that DCA strategy and long term plan does not result to panic selling but it does remove the risks involved on it.
So all I'm just trying to say here is that DCA strategy or long term investment doesn't guarantee your success.

I like to thing that long term investment in Bitcoin does guarantee success and profit only when their is confident in the process because there are a whole lot of things that could go wrong along the years with the price of Bitcoin like the bear season and major but all this wouldn't cause for alarm if only the investor has fully understood and have faith on Bitcoin. History on its own has showed that the price of Bitcoin has always find it way to be green even if there is a period when it gets to dip so what's actually stopping you from making that your long term investment into a success is actually the fear that you would get when the price starts to dip because no every investor has the bulls to continue buying with DCA or hold on their portfolio when the price dips. For me I think their is going to be a risk when you fixed a time frame for yourself labeling as long term and then that time comes and the price doesn't suite but if you are open on actually buying for long and never selling off like let's say you start now when the price is around 79k to 80k and then continue your journey for the longest of time building up and growing through different methods like the DCA or Lum sum when the opportunity presents itself their is absolutely no way that your investment won't be a success in like 10-15 years(long term) from now and of course with the appropriate majors set up to prevent you from tempering or trading your Bitcoin for quick profits.

[avp2306]

It makes a difference if someone is investing 5% of his income into bitcoin as compared with someone who is investing 25%, and the progress will be quite meaningful even though some folks might be limited in how much they can push within what is available to them in terms of the amount of the discretionary funds or any of the other relevant factors that might be affecting how much they can invest into bitcoin and how consistently they can invest into bitcoin, including their readiness, willingness and/or abilities to build and manage their cashflows and to learn from their experiences.

It is clear that with the amount that is done it is quite far let alone the progress later it will certainly be very different because the comparison between 5% and 25% means that in my opinion there is no problem for those who invest with a small amount but what needs to be understood is from a perspective for those who do with 25% are they able to do it consistently because usually people often only happen suddenly like someone has a prestigious nature when there is resistance that is done so that someone says or fights with a higher one even though if reviewed all these things will not happen as said that's why I ask like that because many things happen as I said that too high does not mean someone is great but for those who do with a small amount but they are full of confidence in what they do by having high consistency and regularity in doing it.

I provide a suggested range, but I have no fucking clue what any particular person is ready, willing and able to put into bitcoin.. so they have to figure it out within both their own discretionary funds (their ability) and their level of chosen aggressiveness within their abilities.

Some people have high discretionary income yet they choose to be whimpy and others have low discretionary income and they may not even be able to meet the lower end of the range and they may or may not be in a position to be able to increase their discretionary income.

I already mentioned several times that many normal people with reasonably strong incomes, they still struggle to consistently invest/save 10% of their income... so yeah, some guys are able to do more and other guys cannot even get close to that 10% amount. 

We cannot necessarily judge each person as if they were equal in their capabilities, yet sometimes we can choose guys who have similar income, similar incomes, yet one might choose to invest in bitcoin whimpily and the other might choose to invest aggressively.  Those are personal choices.

Correct since each investors is facing different financial situations. Either they earn low or high what really matters here is they invest using their discretionary income, since if they have that kind of funds their chances to succeed maybe goes high.

There are people struggle to save even if they earn huge maybe due to bad financial management, while there are also people with lower income can spend because they know how to separate well the funds for their important needs also for their discretionary income. So with that what really matter is their commitment and disciple since without that most likely they are going to fail here.

[BitBakerr1]

Continuity is the goal when it comes to DCA so that you will be able to know the advantages of using the DCA method because when you know how to make use of DCA, because the usage matters a lot and no matter what the condition might be DCA is always ready for you and it will make the thing easy, and when the strategy is properly used then there is no way that you wont get your results that is just one of the benefits.

DCA can make the investing easier for an investor, but that does not guarantee profit. We cannot predict anything about it because the market can go up and down all the time. So saying that you will get results using DCA is not enough, DCA only help you to avoid some kind of prediction and timing the market and growing your investment for a long term, not as a way that guarantee a return.

There is definitely some certainty in Bitcoin investment if you buy Bitcoin during the rising price, you will still save on the purchase price of Bitcoin just because of following the DCA method. And again if you buy Bitcoin when the price is falling, you will still save a lot on the purchase price.
Because the DCA method helps you to buy more Bitcoin and if Bitcoin is consolidated, it definitely provides the opportunity or guarantee to profit. Because the price of Bitcoin is not fixed, which is why following the DCA method gives more certainty to profit.

DCA is only a strategy of acquiring bitcoin periodically and not a guarantee for any success in your bitcoin investment.

It is very clear that a lot of people who are coming to this trend still don’t understand what bitcoin investment is because I don’t understand why a member who has been coming to this thread will still find it difficult to understand all this things.
DCA strategy is just for accumulating bitcoin is a strategy and the strategy is for you to be accumulating bitcoin weekly or monthly with your discretionary income it helps remove pressure on you and you become relax in your accumulation journey.
Any week or month you don’t have a discretionary income you don’t need to invest all you need to do is to keep holding whenever you have a discretionary income then you add some bitcoin to your holding. It makes bitcoin investment very easy and simple.

[liasbaa]

you need to know that profit is not a guarantee in bitcoin due to its high volatile nature, even though it has potential to generate profit but it does not mean that it is certain and guaranteed because you can still lose the investment as a result of bitcoins volatility. the only thing i can assure you is that if you are regularly following and investing with the dca you will be able to accumulate a decent amount of bitcoin to your portfolio and also reach your accumulation target or even over accumulation and hold for long term purposes which for me i feel is the biggest win for every long term investor being able to accumulate reasonable and decent amount of bitcoin and reach their accumulation target and hold for 5-10 years or more.

If you know that the return on investment in Bitcoin is uncertain, then why are you wasting your funds? I assume you are doing it through discretionary income but that is yet your earned funds. You know that you may not be alive tomorrow but you are building wealth. You know that you may lose your job today but still I am working hard. In every case there is a word called "if" through which you hope and take risks to test your luck. For every uncertain thing, nothing will stop you. Maybe you will achieve success by following the discipline or you will fail to change the previous situation due to being fearful. The price of Bitcoin is volatile, therefore it has a downward trend with its high trend. Stay in a stable position and find a strategy in the price fluctuations. You have the DCA method which is the best in Bitcoin storage and shows an average price to your portfolio by buying frequently and buying frequently.

[B-BossMan]

It is problematic to proclaim that everyone just do what they can, and perhaps if they have a certain timeline in which they would like to reach certain places, then they might need to try to be more measured.

It makes a difference if someone is investing 5% of his income into bitcoin as compared with someone who is investing 25%, and the progress will be quite meaningful even though some folks might be limited in how much they can push within what is available to them in terms of the amount of the discretionary funds or any of the other relevant factors that might be affecting how much they can invest into bitcoin and how consistently they can invest into bitcoin, including their readiness, willingness and/or abilities to build and manage their cashflows and to learn from their experiences.

All approaches are not equal, even though guys have discretion to choose how whimpy or aggressive that they are going to approach their bitcoin investment and other cashflow management and organizational matters around their choices.

And that why it's best that folks be very intentional about the amount they are investing into their Bitcoin accumulation... It's okay to start small, but yet again, folks should make it a point of duty to constantly improving their investments position/or amount and also cash flow as they go....

Agree with you, what many beginners or some folks still get wrong about Bitcoin investment is structure and the intention behind it, some folks always think that it's all about putting randomly amount of thier money into Bitcoin whenever they feel like, and that approach actually sometimes leads to inconsistency and also a poor result at the end. Instead,  there should have clear plans for themselves, for instance, they can decide to invest fixed amount like $50 or $100 regularly or even commit a percentage of thier income, like 10%.

However, it's also important to start with what they can afford to lose truly, because Bitcoin is volatile in nature, so starting small doesn't actually mean you are small. The real goal should be growing it over time, also increasing your income and be improved in thier cashflow would definitely increase thier investment capacity. morever beginners shouldn't be stuck overthinking the size of thier investment, start where you are, but don’t stay there forever, keep progressing and building your bitcoin investment consistently.

[sotelorene]

you need to know that profit is not a guarantee in bitcoin due to its high volatile nature, even though it has potential to generate profit but it does not mean that it is certain and guaranteed because you can still lose the investment as a result of bitcoins volatility. the only thing i can assure you is that if you are regularly following and investing with the dca you will be able to accumulate a decent amount of bitcoin to your portfolio and also reach your accumulation target or even over accumulation and hold for long term purposes which for me i feel is the biggest win for every long term investor being able to accumulate reasonable and decent amount of bitcoin and reach their accumulation target and hold for 5-10 years or more.

If you know that the return on investment in Bitcoin is uncertain, then why are you wasting your funds? I assume you are doing it through discretionary income but that is yet your earned funds. You know that you may not be alive tomorrow but you are building wealth. You know that you may lose your job today but still I am working hard. In every case there is a word called "if" through which you hope and take risks to test your luck. For every uncertain thing, nothing will stop you. Maybe you will achieve success by following the discipline or you will fail to change the previous situation due to being fearful. The price of Bitcoin is volatile, therefore it has a downward trend with its high trend. Stay in a stable position and find a strategy in the price fluctuations. You have the DCA method which is the best in Bitcoin storage and shows an average price to your portfolio by buying frequently and buying frequently.

You seems to be misunderstanding this whole idea of Bitcoin Investment because the reason why we are Investing in Bitcoin is not necessarily because the return or the outcome of it is sure or guarantee no! That's is not why we are Investing in Bitcoin but rather even though we know that Bitcoin investment is not sure or certain but due to its potential we believe it will do great and better in the future. If Bitcoin is guarantee some people don't mind using all their funds but the volatility is also a factor we don't need to do that. So the safest thing to do is to accumulate with a discrestionary income.

[Rockson1]

I like to thing that long term investment in Bitcoin does guarantee success and profit only when their is confident in the process because there are a whole lot of things that could go wrong along the years with the price of Bitcoin like the bear season and major but all this wouldn't cause for alarm if only the investor has fully understood and have faith on Bitcoin. History on its own has showed that the price of Bitcoin has always find it way to be green even if there is a period when it gets to dip so what's actually stopping you from making that your long term investment into a success is actually the fear that you would get when the price starts to dip because no every investor has the bulls to continue buying with DCA or hold on their portfolio when the price dips. For me I think their is going to be a risk when you fixed a time frame for yourself labeling as long term and then that time comes and the price doesn't suite but if you are open on actually buying for long and never selling off like let's say you start now when the price is around 79k to 80k and then continue your journey for the longest of time building up and growing through different methods like the DCA or Lum sum when the opportunity presents itself their is absolutely no way that your investment won't be a success in like 10-15 years(long term) from now and of course with the appropriate majors set up to prevent you from tempering or trading your Bitcoin for quick profits.

I wanted to quote some part of your text but it will have to quote all so that I can capture everything I want to say, what do we understand by long-term investment it mean different thing to different people but it can also be a mere word, the action and the doing word that makes this long-term a reality is consistency, some persons may not understand this, being consistency does not mean that you should be doing it with all you have but discreationary income only and we know that it is our left over so it can be nothing, Bitcoin investment does not have to do with only having faith in Bitcoin, your faith in Bitcoin has to be proven by your actions which is your acumulation with your discreationary income.
Note any investor that panicked during the dip may not be a long-term investor, the journey is for a long-term and whatever comes our way as go our journey should be followed with patience and infact why would anyone even panick when the dip is also an opportunity for us to intensify our acumulation by buying on a lesser price while we are actively doing our DCA, the bitcon investment journey is all about applying the right approach and we see it being easy for us.

[ruykeri]

you need to know that profit is not a guarantee in bitcoin due to its high volatile nature, even though it has potential to generate profit but it does not mean that it is certain and guaranteed because you can still lose the investment as a result of bitcoins volatility. the only thing i can assure you is that if you are regularly following and investing with the dca you will be able to accumulate a decent amount of bitcoin to your portfolio and also reach your accumulation target or even over accumulation and hold for long term purposes which for me i feel is the biggest win for every long term investor being able to accumulate reasonable and decent amount of bitcoin and reach their accumulation target and hold for 5-10 years or more.

If you know that the return on investment in Bitcoin is uncertain, then why are you wasting your funds? I assume you are doing it through discretionary income but that is yet your earned funds. You know that you may not be alive tomorrow but you are building wealth. You know that you may lose your job today but still I am working hard. In every case there is a word called "if" through which you hope and take risks to test your luck. For every uncertain thing, nothing will stop you. Maybe you will achieve success by following the discipline or you will fail to change the previous situation due to being fearful. The price of Bitcoin is volatile, therefore it has a downward trend with its high trend. Stay in a stable position and find a strategy in the price fluctuations. You have the DCA method which is the best in Bitcoin storage and shows an average price to your portfolio by buying frequently and buying frequently.

Those who say “uncertain” about the increase in the price of bitcoin, basically want to be  in safe zone . Because it is not possible to give any guarantee here. On the other hand, those who invest based on the “if” , actually mean themselves with their own hopes. They also do not have full faith . But the successful ones are those who invest with logic, realistic thinking, proper fund management and risk management and the ability to hold for a long time. They basically think beyond these “if” and “uncertain”. In the current economic and political issues that are being created in the world, bitcoin may have a greater impact on the economy in the future. So we should think positively beside IF and UNCERTAIN.

[Brizi5000]

Continuity is the goal when it comes to DCA so that you will be able to know the advantages of using the DCA method because when you know how to make use of DCA, because the usage matters a lot and no matter what the condition might be DCA is always ready for you and it will make the thing easy, and when the strategy is properly used then there is no way that you wont get your results that is just one of the benefits.

DCA can make the investing easier for an investor, but that does not guarantee profit. We cannot predict anything about it because the market can go up and down all the time. So saying that you will get results using DCA is not enough, DCA only help you to avoid some kind of prediction and timing the market and growing your investment for a long term, not as a way that guarantee a return.

There is definitely some certainty in Bitcoin investment if you buy Bitcoin during the rising price, you will still save on the purchase price of Bitcoin just because of following the DCA method. And again if you buy Bitcoin when the price is falling, you will still save a lot on the purchase price.
Because the DCA method helps you to buy more Bitcoin and if Bitcoin is consolidated, it definitely provides the opportunity or guarantee to profit. Because the price of Bitcoin is not fixed, which is why following the DCA method gives more certainty to profit.

you need to know that profit is not a guarantee in bitcoin due to its high volatile nature, even though it has potential to generate profit but it does not mean that it is certain and guaranteed because you can still lose the investment as a result of bitcoins volatility. the only thing i can assure you is that if you are regularly following and investing with the dca you will be able to accumulate a decent amount of bitcoin to your portfolio and also reach your accumulation target or even over accumulation and hold for long term purposes which for me i feel is the biggest win for every long term investor being able to accumulate reasonable and decent amount of bitcoin and reach their accumulation target and hold for 5-10 years or more.

How do you mean someone can lose an investment in Bitcoin? Because I don't see that as possible for someone to lose their investment in Bitcoin unless the said investor has a short term mindset which is trading but if the investor has a long term mindset there is no way they will lose their investment unless Bitcoin crash which we don't anticipate for that to happen. It is impossible for someone to hit their overaccumulation stage without seeing a significant changes in their portfolio unless their target is very small.

if you really know what volatility means then you wouldnt be asking how do i mean someone can lose an investment in bitcoin. short term trading apart, the volatility of bitcoin doesnt have restrictions weather someone is investing for long term or trading for short term, bitcoins volatility affects all categories of investors. i did not categorically state that theres no potential of generating profit in bitcoin, all i was merely trying to say is that the profit is not a guarantee because of the volatility of bitcoin. and yes someone can be accumulating for a long term and hit accumulation target but the truth remains that bitcoin is highly unpredictable as a result of its volatile nature, it can change every seconds and the price is not stable and that is why the profit is not a guarantee, but theres a potential of it generating profit and also a potential of running loss even in the long run.

[Grease5000]

. One important thing you should have in mind is that DCA strategy and long term plan does not result to panic selling but it does remove the risks involved on it.
So all I'm just trying to say here is that DCA strategy or long term investment doesn't guarantee your success.

I like to thing that long term investment in Bitcoin does guarantee success and profit only when their is confident in the process because there are a whole lot of things that could go wrong along the years with the price of Bitcoin like the bear season and major but all this wouldn't cause for alarm if only the investor has fully understood and have faith on Bitcoin. History on its own has showed that the price of Bitcoin has always find it way to be green even if there is a period when it gets to dip so what's actually stopping you from making that your long term investment into a success is actually the fear that you would get when the price starts to dip because no every investor has the bulls to continue buying with DCA or hold on their portfolio when the price dips. For me I think their is going to be a risk when you fixed a time frame for yourself labeling as long term and then that time comes and the price doesn't suite but if you are open on actually buying for long and never selling off like let's say you start now when the price is around 79k to 80k and then continue your journey for the longest of time building up and growing through different methods like the DCA or Lum sum when the opportunity presents itself their is absolutely no way that your investment won't be a success in like 10-15 years(long term) from now and of course with the appropriate majors set up to prevent you from tempering or trading your Bitcoin for quick profits.

You’re right to point that out—DCA and long-term investing aren’t magic formulas. Exactly. DCA and a long-term mindset help reduce emotional decisions like panic selling, but they don’t eliminate risk completely. The market can still move against you, and nothing guarantees success. At the end of the day, it still comes down to discipline, patience, and how well you manage your expectations over time.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you that the interest rate of a loan is very important, it makes more sense that a smaller loan with a high interest rate can end up costing more over time than a bigger loan with a much lower interest rate, so it makes sense to focus on paying off the high interest loan first rather than on which is higher.
But my point is that the total amount of debt still matters too, not just the interest rate, for example, even if someone has a loan with a low interest rate, if the total amount is very large, it can still put a lot of pressure on them, they still have to make regular payments, and that can affect how much money they have left every month If they are paying in installments on a monthly basis, if for any reason something goes wrong that large debt can quickly become a serious problem, even if the interest rate is low, that's why I was saying people shouldn't rush into investing, especially when they already have a lot of debt.
In real life, things don't always go as planned, if someone is investing while also trying to settle their debts, and their back up fund isn't capable of handling things if their income stops or reduces, they might be forced to sell their investment just to keep up with paying their debt, that could mean selling at a loss, which puts them in a worse position.

For sure, each person has to figure out how to deal with their financial situation and the extent to which they can start to invest into bitcoin from where they are at and if the debt looming over their head might need to be dealt with first, and surely some guys might not have had realistically assessed the risks that might exist within the amount of debt that they had already ended up building up.. and perhaps their having had accumulated so much debt also shows that they have some of their own problematic personality issues in that they might not either be able to control their wants and/or to properly measure how they are going to deal with them into the future.

It is very likely that they in debt because they lack simple control on their wants and ended up taking loan to indulge themselves, if this is the case I don't see that person making any good improvements on investing in bitcoin, if they can't control what pushes them to take out loans then they probably won't be able to control themselves from taking out of their bitcoin investment if they ever fell the need to indulge themselves again, it's easier to deal with if the loan was taken for something important that could not be avoided like something their backup funds couldn't handle probably because they haven't saved up enough yet, things like this happen.

I get your point that some guys might have character flaws and they might not realize the difference between using debt for consumption and using debt for investment, so there can be some better uses of debt.   No matter the reason there can be ways to deal with the debt, and yeah, maybe some guys are not able to overcome their already existing character flaws an their inabilities to control their consumption.

So, yeah, they might both need to identify that they have issues and they might also need to get their consumption under control.

It's essentially similar to how a person can not accumulate sensibly accumulate bitcoin without discretionary income (unless they want to ruin their finance) they will need to be able to keep their impulses in check first, else they might end up taking even more loan that will eventually even lead to them selling their bitcoin if they've already stated accumulating, in order to be able to accumulate and hold long term a person needs to be able to control how much they spend unnecessarily.

Many times, I have described the use of debt as a more advance technique that likely would be better to not be deployed until a guy is already used to managing cashflows in regular ways and the guys who had sufficiently build up his cashflow management and/or back up funds.. even though surely guys might prematurely start to use debt when they might not really be ready for it..

Yet.. I think that you and I (@ZeroVinsonN) started out this area of the conversation in terms of how a guy who is considering starting out investing into bitcoin would be treating the debt that he already has in place. .. and in some sense, it hardly even matters how he got into such debt - except perhaps to the extent that he might not be able to change bad habits that he already has.. yet I personally don't want to dwell on those kinds of situations (even though surely each guy has to identify if he has problems and to figure out tactics to fix their problems to the extent that they believe that they have problems).. and it seems that my own emphasis, was pointing out ways to go forward to deal with debt that is already there and not really talking so much about adding new debt, even though surely I can imagine situations in which guys clear up their old debt and get their finances into a stronger place and then go down the road of using debt, again.. which may or many not be a problem, even though surely the use of debt can sometimes have challenges in terms of how the debt is being used and also the accounting for the costs of using the debt versus not using the debt and calculating possible future value from the use of such debt... so in the case of bitcoin, surely a guy could come to his own assessment and he might see that the totality of debt is going to cost him right round 6% per year for the next 5 years, and then he might estimate that bitcoin (or wherever he puts the money from the debt) is likely to perform at a rate that is greater than 6% per year for the next 5 years (and yeah, he may or may not be correct on that), and he may well decide that it is worth it to enter into the debt .. those are individual choices in regards to what tactics to use and the advantages versus disadvantages and if they end up benefiting or losing on their bet, then that is on them too in terms of reaping the benefits or bearing the costs of their actions.

It might not even be their debt, people inherit more than assets these days and having to pay off a debt you inherited can be a serious drag and depending on how much it's taking from you (the investor) to service they might not be able to accumulate bitcoin at the time (though if they still have discretionary income left over then they can buy, not as much as they would without the debt but it's probably better than nothing) until the debt is settled.

Sure.  There could be cases in which they end up with more debt than they wished that they had, and they had not even caused the debt, yet they end up with responsibility over such debt, to the extent that they are not able to negotiate some ways to get out of the debt.  There surely can be various aspects of the lives of different people that are not fair, even though they have to try to figure out the better ways of attempting to deal with the circumstances that they find themselves in.

Provided that they have enough to time to pay back the loan debt and the interest rate isn't that high then they can still accumulate bitcoin, it's regrettable that something they did not plan for is what's ultimately delaying their bitcoin investment but until that debt is cleared their assets will also still be at risk, it might take time but clearing the debt will be essential before they can fully lock-in on accumulating bitcoin.

You seem to be over-assuming the terms of the debt and/or the burden of the debt... There are ways to manage debt and to make sure that discretionary funds are still available to invest into bitcoin, even if they might have relatively onerous debt terms.. which is another reason that I would like to repeat that if guys have various sources of debt, then they can potentially figure out ways to resolve (pay off) the most onerous debt first, and yeah, if the whole debt is relatively onerous, they might need to bring the debt down to a certain level of manageability so that they conclude that their discretionary funds are high enough to continue to ongoingly buy bitcoin.  Attempts at smart management of debt does not tend to be all or nothing propositions, even though surely there could be some circumstances in which the debt needs to be either resolved or to brought down to more manageable amounts before resuming investing into bitcoin starts to make more sense.   I tend to place a pretty high priority on both investing into bitcoin and ongoingly building a bitcoin investment, yet surely at the same time, the devil is in the details in regards to conclusions about if their discretionary funds are enough to both allow them to invest in bitcoin and to otherwise allocate towards savings and/or discretionary consumption too (while at the same time servicing their debt(s)).

So we might consider the possibility that guys who had got themselves into such a position might have some issues to improve their own cashflow management practices and their distinguishing between wants and needs.. and there could be guys who might realize, once they really assess the situation, that they need to take some drastic moves to lower their absolute level of debt - even though there could be ways to deal with the debt and to invest into bitcoin at the same time, depending on the severity of the matter and even the extent to which back up funds are in place (as you mentioned).  A guy who has such outstanding debt, he likely should be engaging in a practice to keep higher levels of back up funds and also trying to figure out ways to increase his discretionary income by increasing his income and/or cutting his expenses.

If the debt is personal then servicing it would be easier since the debt was expected, if it's to be paid in installments as most loans are then depending on how much they are to pay in the stipulated periods of time they could definitely still accumulate bitcoin, if they are servicing the loan from their discretionary income and it's taking about 70% in installments then they still have about 30% for other things,(although I don't quite believe they will be servicing the loan with their discretionary income, at that point that expense is essential and they can only tell if they have any discretionary income available after paying the loan and paying for other essentials, even though they are still paying in installments) we can't expect them to invest all in bitcoin but they are still in a good position to be able to keep up with their investment while still paying back then loan, and like you said they can get more discretionary income by increasing their income or cutting down on their expenses

Many times loans (or installments) are not part of discretionary expenses, unless there might be some degree that the amounts might be negotiable or the timelines for payment and/or the fees.  So, loan repayment may have a certain level of priority, even though I mentioned that there could also be options for extra payments to the extent that some loans might have higher interest rates and then an incentive for person to pay the higher interest rate loans first.

There also could be situations that loans are so burdensome that default seems the better of options, and surely there can be costs to default that might not be worth undergoing, so guys might consider the extent to which default might be a reasonable option that they might want to consider.

If the loan was a relatively small one then it's viable for it's payment to come from their discretionary income, it's basically matter of choice, does the person want to treat it as a essential expense or will they just decide to clear it through their discretionary income.

You are speaking in a bit of gobble-dee-gook, ZeroVinsonN.  If we are initially setting up the terms of debt, then of course, to even be able to take the loan, we have to have enough discretionary income to service such loan, and if the loan has minimal terms, then those would become part of basic expenses.  There can be abilities to pay extra which would reduce future payment requirements.  There can also be options to default or to underpay, which might create more costs depending on default terms and/or if the loan originator is holding collateral. or maybe they know where you are at, so the costs could be the loss of limbs or your life if you default.  Terms are going to vary and some aspects of the terms will be more optional than other aspects.  We are likely getting too much into the weeds on this discussion, and guys can figure these kinds of details for themselves, or maybe create another thread to discuss these kinds of matters, to the extent that they need to be (or want to be) discussed.

If there is a collateral involved then defaulting the loan will depend entirely on how how much the person wants to keep the property, sometimes people can decide to let the property go rather than having to pay the loan back but this is not the case in most of the times, usually the collateral is worth more than the loan, with time on their hands it might make more sense to sell the property and pay off the loan from there if that's possible rather than defaulting and losing the property.

Yep.  Collateral versus non-collateral loans makes a difference in options, and guys can still have various aspects of their personal finances in a mess (including outstanding loans) and still invest in bitcoin at the same time while they might be figuring out ways to lessen or resolve various outstanding messy financial circumstances, including but not limited to debt management.

How do you mean someone can lose an investment in Bitcoin? Because I don't see that as possible for someone to lose their investment in Bitcoin unless the said investor has a short term mindset which is trading but if the investor has a long term mindset there is no way they will lose their investment unless Bitcoin crash which we don't anticipate for that to happen. It is impossible for someone to hit their overaccumulation stage without seeing a significant changes in their portfolio unless their target is very small.

Yes if you are planning to invest into Bitcoin for long term your chances of making profits will increase but that doesn't mean you have guarantee to make profits. DCA strategy helps us to be discipline and to consistent with accumulating Bitcoin but it doesn't guarantee us profits either. Let's say for instance you are planning to invest for 5 years and you have already accumulate Bitcoin for just 4 years and based on the volatility nature of Bitcoin, it price dropped so low all of a sudden for a very long period of time your Bitcoin portfolio will eventually lose some weight because Bitcoin volatility doesn't look what strategy you are using or how long you have invest into Bitcoin.

Even though you are using the term "invest" @Bright0515, you seem to be talking about trading.

How could a person consider himself to be investing for 5 years?  What would your example of a guy do at 5 years?  He spent 4 years accumulating and then the BTC price is going up and down, and he is just waiting for the BTC price to go up and then he sells all of his bitcoin?

From my perspective, investing has both an in and out strategy, yet the out strategy would likely not be all at once, unless there was an emergency or perhaps some age consideration that might justify moving from bitcoin into something that is more dollar stable.. based on needs to cash out such as health/age.

Otherwise, if we are planning to get out of bitcoin completely, that sounds like trading rather than investing - especially something like 5 years.

Furthermore, Bright0515, what are you considering that plan for the hypothetical guy that you mentioned to be having a 5-year timeline?

Maybe I can give another hint of what I might consider to be a timeline that is less than 10 years.  Let's say that a guy is in his early 60s when he heard about bitcoin, and so maybe he had been making various investments all of his life that had not really performed too well and he has some retirement benefits, yet they do not really add up to very much.  He was making around $80k per year, and he would like to make $80k per year in his retirement with a 7% per year increase, and so when he looks at his various benefits, he sees that they likely are going to pay him around $35 per year and maybe around 3% per year increase in the cost of living, so he decides to put his value into bitcoin so that the bitcoin can start to supplement whatever income he is going to be able to draw at 65 years old, and so wherever his bitcoin happen to be at 65 years old, he will start drawing from it at that time.  He might even have enough of his current investment portfolio that he is able to pretty much assure that he can put around $160k (2 years of his income) into bitcoin in the next two years (which would end up being right around $1,550 per week)... and then after the first 2 years of buying bitcoin, then he would continue to invest about $300 per week into bitcoin until his retirement 5 years after he started.. and he would start to withdraw at whatever the withdrawal rate would be at that time..

So let's actually apply this guy's situation to what happened in bitcoin in the past 5-ish years, and so let's say that the guy started investing $1,550 per week in bitcoin in January 2021 (of course not really a great time to start, but it is what it is).. So the first 2 years from January 1, 2021 until December 31, 2022 had him investing $162k into bitcoin and he accumulated 5.1 bitcoin.  

Thereafter starting from January 1, 2023 to date, he invested at $300 per week into bitcoin which caused him to invest right around $53k and accumulating right around 1.1 BTC.

So, right now, the guy is going to start his sustainable withdrawal with the amount of bitcoin that he has.  So right now, he had invested a total of $215k, and he had accumulated 6.2 BTC.  We can look at his sustainable withdrawal level, and see that his 200-WMA value for 6.2 BTC is right about $373k, which means that he could start right now withdrawing at $37.3k per year, or better monthly at $3,100 per month... and then also with a 7% increase per year, and so even though this is not the guy's only income it will supplement whatever other income that he has, which likely still will not add up to his earlier income, but it was the best that he was able to do based on his circumstances and his start date from 5 years ago.  He is still not in a bad position, and from my perspective, he would have had been investing rather than trading, even though he had start and end dates that ended up being only slightly more than 5 years (in the example I gave).

If you always believe so and you share the same information on the bold part of your statement with people around you, a no coiner might think Bitcoin investment is 100% safe because you don't talk about the risk or the volatility nature of Bitcoin. One important thing you should have in mind is that DCA strategy and long term plan does not result to panic selling, secondly it does not remove the risks involved on Bitcoin volatility.
So all I'm just trying to say here is that DCA strategy or long term investment doesn't guarantee your success.

I agree with your other points about no guarantee, since of course there are both execution risks and underlying asset risks.

. One important thing you should have in mind is that DCA strategy and long term plan does not result to panic selling but it does remove the risks involved on it.
So all I'm just trying to say here is that DCA strategy or long term investment doesn't guarantee your success.

I like to thing that long term investment in Bitcoin does guarantee success and profit only when their is confident in the process because there are a whole lot of things that could go wrong along the years with the price of Bitcoin like the bear season and major but all this wouldn't cause for alarm if only the investor has fully understood and have faith on Bitcoin.

Your merely having faith in bitcoin does not cause it to become more guaranteed to be successful, even though surely you can control various aspects within your own control to attempt to lessen execution risk as much as feasible... even though you might not always know about certain aspects of execution risk and/or  certain aspects of the risks of the underlying asset (bitcoin in this case).

History on its own has showed that the price of Bitcoin has always find it way to be green even if there is a period when it gets to dip so what's actually stopping you from making that your long term investment into a success is actually the fear that you would get when the price starts to dip because no every investor has the bulls to continue buying with DCA or hold on their portfolio when the price dips.

History does not guarantee results, and buying dips is an inferior practice as compared with DCA.

For me I think their is going to be a risk when you fixed a time frame for yourself labeling as long term and then that time comes and the price doesn't suite but if you are open on actually buying for long and never selling off like let's say you start now when the price is around 79k to 80k and then continue your journey for the longest of time building up and growing through different methods like the DCA or Lum sum when the opportunity presents itself their is absolutely no way that your investment won't be a success in like 10-15 years(long term) from now and of course with the appropriate majors set up to prevent you from tempering or trading your Bitcoin for quick profits.

Even if you do everything right and you even have an investment timeline that is 10-15 years or longer, you are not guaranteed to have success (or to be in a better position for having had invested into bitcoin as compared with if you had not).

There are plenty of guys who consider bitcoin to be an asymmetric bet to the upside and perhaps amongst the best of investments (if not the best investment), so they can recognize that as long as they do not leverage the most they could lose is 100% of what they put in, yet they can also structure their own discretionary funds in such a way that allows them to invest as much as they are able to invest into bitcoin without over doing it (in other words in an aggressive way), and yeah, they can monitor their bitcoin investment as it goes and continue to consider whether or not bitcoin's investment thesis is getting weaker, stronger or staying the same with the passage of time.

[BluebloodCXVI]

Even if you do everything right and you even have an investment timeline that is 10-15 years or longer, you are not guaranteed to have success (or to be in a better position for having had invested into bitcoin as compared with if you had not).

There are plenty of guys who consider bitcoin to be an asymmetric bet to the upside and perhaps amongst the best of investments (if not the best investment), so they can recognize that as long as they do not leverage the most they could lose is 100% of what they put in, yet they can also structure their own discretionary funds in such a way that allows them to invest as much as they are able to invest into bitcoin without over doing it (in other words in an aggressive way), and yeah, they can monitor their bitcoin investment as it goes and continue to consider whether or not bitcoin's investment thesis is getting weaker, stronger or staying the same with the passage of time.

I’ll continue to say this, the bitcoin market doesn’t owe anybody any special treatment or favorable outcome. An investor can only do their best by managing risks wisely and staying disciplined but at the end of the day, the market will always do what it wants to do regardless of any person’s expectations.

[Father111]

[edited out]

I don’t think a beginner needs to master key management before buying their first sats, but they should at least understand why it matters.

We can agree to disagree. The newbie does not need to know anything deeply and/or substantially about bitcoin to get started (perhaps beyond glancing at a chart and see number tends to go up and/or is volatile), or maybe the guy starts to blindly invest in bitcoin based on a recommendation of a friend, so all that he needs to know is that he picks the right bitcoin.. BTC rather than something that is not bitcoin.

And the brand new person to bitcoin might choose to make his first purchases through an exchange, whether it is $100, $30, $10 or some other amount, even though sure the coins on exchanges are not real bitcoin, but they have the potential to be transferred to a private wallet at a later date (after he starts to look into matters related to wallets that he does not need to know to start)..

Very correct, newbies don't really needs to know deeply before investing into Bitcoin, many newbies we be thinking that since they are newbies and  still learning the ethics on how Bitcoin works, they will be having the mindsets of not investing due to lack of knowledge on some areas of Bitcoin, it is very understandable that Bitcoin is big to understand within a blink of an eyes, it takes time and newbies should wait deeply knowing all about Bitcoin before investing but to know primarily aspect of it and invest when you have discretionary income.

[Futurexxx]

Even if you do everything right and you even have an investment timeline that is 10-15 years or longer, you are not guaranteed to have success (or to be in a better position for having had invested into bitcoin as compared with if you had not).

There are plenty of guys who consider bitcoin to be an asymmetric bet to the upside and perhaps amongst the best of investments (if not the best investment), so they can recognize that as long as they do not leverage the most they could lose is 100% of what they put in, yet they can also structure their own discretionary funds in such a way that allows them to invest as much as they are able to invest into bitcoin without over doing it (in other words in an aggressive way), and yeah, they can monitor their bitcoin investment as it goes and continue to consider whether or not bitcoin's investment thesis is getting weaker, stronger or staying the same with the passage of time.

I’ll continue to say this, the bitcoin market doesn’t owe anybody any special treatment or favorable outcome. An investor can only do their best by managing risks wisely and staying disciplined but at the end of the day, the market will always do what it wants to do regardless of any person’s expectations.

Yea, you are right that the market will always do whatever it want to do, but am a bit curious on how you as an investor manages your risk?
Because aside investing with what you can afford to lose, like your discretionary income, so that you wouldn't be too emotionally attached to your Bitcoin investment, I don't think their is any better way to manages your risk while investing in Bitcoin.
Additionally, for your to be successful in what ever endeavor you found yourself, you need to be disciplined, so it's not just in Bitcoin investment that discipline is greatly needed.

[batang_bitcoin]

I’ll continue to say this, the bitcoin market doesn’t owe anybody any special treatment or favorable outcome. An investor can only do their best by managing risks wisely and staying disciplined but at the end of the day, the market will always do what it wants to do regardless of any person’s expectations.

I agree, we have no control of the market but we can control the risk we take and the money that we're spending to invest. As others might say that the price is still expensive, that's how they look at the market currently. But if someone become successful by investing in Bitcoin consistently, that's because they chose the moments they have to invest when they can't and yet did it still while the others kept complaining.