JJG’s Outline of Bitcoin Investment Ideas

[Derekfunds]

In life there must always be a challenge or challenges wether we like it or not because life is not a bed of roses though some people seems not to have any challenge or trouble that is because of how they have prepared themselves to overcome challenge without making it look like there was... I'm not a fan of loan but there are time or period it can be necessary and if you have a means you can use to offset it later then going for a loan is not really a bad idea even institutions, organization and private individual do take loan so the most important thing is having a means to repay.

  At times in someone's life one needs to take some risk that are worth taking. Applying for loan is something i try my possible best to neglect as a man but at times to get somethings done very quickly we definitely need high amount of funds which we know our salary or wages would not be enough for it. And basically am not talking about bitcoin invesment alone just giving instance on real life scenarior.
   life is full of challenges so we should always be ready for what so ever life might shoot against us. we can be in debts and still move along with our bitcoin investment  so far our discretionary income are in check.

It is not a good idea to take loan to invest in bitcoin and then to become a debtor. Taking loan without any plans on how to salvage the loan in the future is very wrong. As for bitcoin investment,  you don't need to be carried all in the name of wanting to increase the stash of bitcoin in your bitcoin holdings by going to take loan and then end up putting oneself into tight corner or unnecessary pressure.

Bitcoin should never be invested in debt or aggressively, and I think it will never be possible to hold Bitcoin in the long term by borrowing or aggressively investing. The reason we continue with long-term Bitcoin investments is because we invest in Bitcoin with prudent income. Bitcoin should be invested with as much money as you can afford to lose, so that no investor faces danger with his Bitcoin holdings in the future.
These are things that every Bitcoin investor must know, so every investor or new person should be careful of the idea that Bitcoin should not be invested in debt in any way.

In the sense of borrowing and investing aggressively, I think that doesn't make any sense because it will affect the investment whether the investor like it or not but investing aggressively from our discretionary income will not affect  an investor that knows what he or she is doing because there are investors that doesn't really know what they are doing to some point. There is nothing wrong in been aggressive with your discretionary income but I don't encourage someone to be agressive with a borrowed money.

[Rabata]

In life there must always be a challenge or challenges wether we like it or not because life is not a bed of roses though some people seems not to have any challenge or trouble that is because of how they have prepared themselves to overcome challenge without making it look like there was... I'm not a fan of loan but there are time or period it can be necessary and if you have a means you can use to offset it later then going for a loan is not really a bad idea even institutions, organization and private individual do take loan so the most important thing is having a means to repay.

  At times in someone's life one needs to take some risk that are worth taking. Applying for loan is something i try my possible best to neglect as a man but at times to get somethings done very quickly we definitely need high amount of funds which we know our salary or wages would not be enough for it. And basically am not talking about bitcoin invesment alone just giving instance on real life scenarior.
   life is full of challenges so we should always be ready for what so ever life might shoot against us. we can be in debts and still move along with our bitcoin investment  so far our discretionary income are in check.

It is not a good idea to take loan to invest in bitcoin and then to become a debtor. Taking loan without any plans on how to salvage the loan in the future is very wrong. As for bitcoin investment,  you don't need to be carried all in the name of wanting to increase the stash of bitcoin in your bitcoin holdings by going to take loan and then end up putting oneself into tight corner or unnecessary pressure.

Bitcoin should never be invested in debt or aggressively, and I think it will never be possible to hold Bitcoin in the long term by borrowing or aggressively investing. The reason we continue with long-term Bitcoin investments is because we invest in Bitcoin with prudent income. Bitcoin should be invested with as much money as you can afford to lose, so that no investor faces danger with his Bitcoin holdings in the future.
These are things that every Bitcoin investor must know, so every investor or new person should be careful of the idea that Bitcoin should not be invested in debt in any way.

Taking the risk of investing in volatile assets like Bitcoin with debt can lead to stress, financial crisis and depression if it is damaged. Therefore, the most important thing in maintaining investment is financial comfort. That is, the investment should not cause financial deficit later. And this will be possible only when an investor invests from excess money, i.e. from discretionary income. As a result of investing with debt, we have to repay the loan within a certain period of time, which can put pressure on a person. This is basically the pressure of financial responsibility. If the market falls when investing with borrowed money, then the mentality of selling the investment is created because then an investor does not have the ability to bear the loss and it makes him panic. It is always said that one should invest with money that is capable of losing. Therefore, if the mentality of losing is not prepared and if it is damaged, it will affect the necessary expenses, such investments put the stability of life at risk.

[Obulis]

Some of the investors that i have came across with, is true that investors who make use of DCA method have the advantage of waiting for dip, to buy once using lump sum method to make use of chance of the dip, if you have reach their overaccumulation status and you decided to stop accumulating, this discussion just made to recall on what an investors told me about overaccumulation status and you don't need to keep accumulating, and that is why i suggested to say it out here to reaction about it, then i can learn from it too, it is a bad idea holding back bad impression that will misleading you in future.

Making use of DCA strategy in Bitcoin accumulation is a direct opposite to waiting the dip before buying. On that, DCA has nothing to do with waiting for Bitcoin price to fall (the dip) when you wait for price decline it's another strategy, that's to say that waiting for Bitcoin price to fall before buying Bitcoin is never an advantage of DCA strategy. However, in using DCA strategy, there is every likelihood of meeting the dip but that is totally different from waiting for the dip. In this case you keep buying Bitcoin on your set interval and on meeting the dip you decide to buy aggressively but that doesn't mean you waited for the dip.

[RockBell]

Some of the investors that i have came across with, is true that investors who make use of DCA method have the advantage of waiting for dip, to buy once using lump sum method to make use of chance of the dip, if you have reach their overaccumulation status and you decided to stop accumulating, this discussion just made to recall on what an investors told me about overaccumulation status and you don't need to keep accumulating, and that is why i suggested to say it out here to reaction about it, then i can learn from it too, it is a bad idea holding back bad impression that will misleading you in future.

Making use of DCA strategy in Bitcoin accumulation is a direct opposite to waiting the dip before buying. On that, DCA has nothing to do with waiting for Bitcoin price to fall (the dip) when you wait for price decline it's another strategy, that's to say that waiting for Bitcoin price to fall before buying Bitcoin is never an advantage of DCA strategy. However, in using DCA strategy, there is every likelihood of meeting the dip but that is totally different from waiting for the dip. In this case you keep buying Bitcoin on your set interval and on meeting the dip you decide to buy aggressively but that doesn't mean you waited for the dip.

What people need to know that all drives you to the same goal as much as uo I don't take any of them seriously then don't expect to get any good result in return, in this case it takes a lot to archive what ever in bitcoin investment and this are thebways that you can easily accumulate bitcoin, and what if you are waiting for the dip and it does not happen eventually then what do you do so you see that either way wrong one of the ways that things will be better is for you is to just do DCA and it the process there will be periods wereby you will meet the dip which is an added advantage, the only thing is it's seriousness and people that now understand it will do the needful, so they don't have to panic to much, since they know it's a long time investment.

[whiteblue]

Some of the investors that i have came across with, is true that investors who make use of DCA method have the advantage of waiting for dip, to buy once using lump sum method to make use of chance of the dip, if you have reach their overaccumulation status and you decided to stop accumulating, this discussion just made to recall on what an investors told me about overaccumulation status and you don't need to keep accumulating, and that is why i suggested to say it out here to reaction about it, then i can learn from it too, it is a bad idea holding back bad impression that will misleading you in future.

Making use of DCA strategy in Bitcoin accumulation is a direct opposite to waiting the dip before buying. On that, DCA has nothing to do with waiting for Bitcoin price to fall (the dip) when you wait for price decline it's another strategy, that's to say that waiting for Bitcoin price to fall before buying Bitcoin is never an advantage of DCA strategy. However, in using DCA strategy, there is every likelihood of meeting the dip but that is totally different from waiting for the dip. In this case you keep buying Bitcoin on your set interval and on meeting the dip you decide to buy aggressively but that doesn't mean you waited for the dip.

What people need to know that all drives you to the same goal as much as uo I don't take any of them seriously then don't expect to get any good result in return, in this case it takes a lot to archive what ever in bitcoin investment and this are thebways that you can easily accumulate bitcoin, and what if you are waiting for the dip and it does not happen eventually then what do you do so you see that either way wrong one of the ways that things will be better is for you is to just do DCA and it the process there will be periods wereby you will meet the dip which is an added advantage, the only thing is it's seriousness and people that now understand it will do the needful, so they don't have to panic to much, since they know it's a long time investment.

We must buy consistently when we're in the accumulation phase. There's no need to force ourselves to develop various strategies at the beginning of our purchases, We should simply focus on weekly purchases.

The Bitcoin accumulation phase simply requires increasing our focus and purpose. If we can focus, we won't miss a single step in buying Bitcoin. Our purpose is long term, So we won't worry about today's or tomorrow's price because our target is long term.

In this initial phase, our perseverance will be tested by ourselves, Such as our self-confidence, Eliminating negative thoughts and worries, and strengthening our mentality. I believe if this is Successful, We will be strong enough to buy Bitcoin for longer than our target. For example, we plan to hold for 10 years, but with strong conviction, we can increase our holding period to 20 years.

[Father111]

In life there must always be a challenge or challenges wether we like it or not because life is not a bed of roses though some people seems not to have any challenge or trouble that is because of how they have prepared themselves to overcome challenge without making it look like there was... I'm not a fan of loan but there are time or period it can be necessary and if you have a means you can use to offset it later then going for a loan is not really a bad idea even institutions, organization and private individual do take loan so the most important thing is having a means to repay.

  At times in someone's life one needs to take some risk that are worth taking. Applying for loan is something i try my possible best to neglect as a man but at times to get somethings done very quickly we definitely need high amount of funds which we know our salary or wages would not be enough for it. And basically am not talking about bitcoin invesment alone just giving instance on real life scenarior.
   life is full of challenges so we should always be ready for what so ever life might shoot against us. we can be in debts and still move along with our bitcoin investment  so far our discretionary income are in check.

It is not a good idea to take loan to invest in bitcoin and then to become a debtor. Taking loan without any plans on how to salvage the loan in the future is very wrong. As for bitcoin investment,  you don't need to be carried all in the name of wanting to increase the stash of bitcoin in your bitcoin holdings by going to take loan and then end up putting oneself into tight corner or unnecessary pressure.

Bitcoin should never be invested in debt or aggressively, and I think it will never be possible to hold Bitcoin in the long term by borrowing or aggressively investing. The reason we continue with long-term Bitcoin investments is because we invest in Bitcoin with prudent income. Bitcoin should be invested with as much money as you can afford to lose, so that no investor faces danger with his Bitcoin holdings in the future.
These are things that every Bitcoin investor must know, so every investor or new person should be careful of the idea that Bitcoin should not be invested in debt in any way.

In the sense of borrowing and investing aggressively, I think that doesn't make any sense because it will affect the investment whether the investor like it or not but investing aggressively from our discretionary income will not affect  an investor that knows what he or she is doing because there are investors that doesn't really know what they are doing to some point. There is nothing wrong in been aggressive with your discretionary income but I don't encourage someone to be agressive with a borrowed money.

Instead of borrowing money to invest, i will suggest you should sell of any of your assets that you can buy back when you have reach your accumulation status, if you have the mindset of investing in a longer term investment and will still again from it in future time and buy the assets times two of it. As newbies or advance investors should come across any investors encourage of borrowing of money to invest, it is a wrong information to take in as an investors, never borrow to invest.

[Brizi5000]

In life there must always be a challenge or challenges wether we like it or not because life is not a bed of roses though some people seems not to have any challenge or trouble that is because of how they have prepared themselves to overcome challenge without making it look like there was... I'm not a fan of loan but there are time or period it can be necessary and if you have a means you can use to offset it later then going for a loan is not really a bad idea even institutions, organization and private individual do take loan so the most important thing is having a means to repay.

  At times in someone's life one needs to take some risk that are worth taking. Applying for loan is something i try my possible best to neglect as a man but at times to get somethings done very quickly we definitely need high amount of funds which we know our salary or wages would not be enough for it. And basically am not talking about bitcoin invesment alone just giving instance on real life scenarior.
   life is full of challenges so we should always be ready for what so ever life might shoot against us. we can be in debts and still move along with our bitcoin investment  so far our discretionary income are in check.

It is not a good idea to take loan to invest in bitcoin and then to become a debtor. Taking loan without any plans on how to salvage the loan in the future is very wrong. As for bitcoin investment,  you don't need to be carried all in the name of wanting to increase the stash of bitcoin in your bitcoin holdings by going to take loan and then end up putting oneself into tight corner or unnecessary pressure.

Bitcoin should never be invested in debt or aggressively, and I think it will never be possible to hold Bitcoin in the long term by borrowing or aggressively investing. The reason we continue with long-term Bitcoin investments is because we invest in Bitcoin with prudent income. Bitcoin should be invested with as much money as you can afford to lose, so that no investor faces danger with his Bitcoin holdings in the future.
These are things that every Bitcoin investor must know, so every investor or new person should be careful of the idea that Bitcoin should not be invested in debt in any way.

Taking the risk of investing in volatile assets like Bitcoin with debt can lead to stress, financial crisis and depression if it is damaged. Therefore, the most important thing in maintaining investment is financial comfort. That is, the investment should not cause financial deficit later. And this will be possible only when an investor invests from excess money, i.e. from discretionary income. As a result of investing with debt, we have to repay the loan within a certain period of time, which can put pressure on a person. This is basically the pressure of financial responsibility. If the market falls when investing with borrowed money, then the mentality of selling the investment is created because then an investor does not have the ability to bear the loss and it makes him panic. It is always said that one should invest with money that is capable of losing. Therefore, if the mentality of losing is not prepared and if it is damaged, it will affect the necessary expenses, such investments put the stability of life at risk.

it is very unwise and wrong approach for any investor of such a highly volatile asset like bitcoin to borrow money to invest and still rely on his bitcoin investment for the repayment of such debt or loans. anyone who does that is a gambler who is gambling and messing around with his investment with such a traders mindset. most times people keep getting the whole idea wrong in terms of borrowing money to start or to sustain their bitcoin investment. its not as if one cannot borrow money to invest in bitcoin, you can actually borrow if the need be but when borrowing such money you shouldnt depend on your bitcoin investment for the repayment, so it will be very unwise to borrow money without making plans of repayment when due and even more wrongly done when youre depending on the performance of your bitcoin investment for the repayment. the advise is, if you know you are depending on your bitcoin investment for the repayment of debts then dont borrow to invest, but if you know you arent depending on it for its repayment then you can borrow.

[Abbatty]

In life there must always be a challenge or challenges wether we like it or not because life is not a bed of roses though some people seems not to have any challenge or trouble that is because of how they have prepared themselves to overcome challenge without making it look like there was... I'm not a fan of loan but there are time or period it can be necessary and if you have a means you can use to offset it later then going for a loan is not really a bad idea even institutions, organization and private individual do take loan so the most important thing is having a means to repay.

  At times in someone's life one needs to take some risk that are worth taking. Applying for loan is something i try my possible best to neglect as a man but at times to get somethings done very quickly we definitely need high amount of funds which we know our salary or wages would not be enough for it. And basically am not talking about bitcoin invesment alone just giving instance on real life scenarior.
   life is full of challenges so we should always be ready for what so ever life might shoot against us. we can be in debts and still move along with our bitcoin investment  so far our discretionary income are in check.

It is not a good idea to take loan to invest in bitcoin and then to become a debtor. Taking loan without any plans on how to salvage the loan in the future is very wrong. As for bitcoin investment,  you don't need to be carried all in the name of wanting to increase the stash of bitcoin in your bitcoin holdings by going to take loan and then end up putting oneself into tight corner or unnecessary pressure.

That why it is said to invest with you discretionary income, taking loans to invest is like investing with what you can afford to lose, with that your emotions tends to get the bette of your investment when the market is not going the way you want.

When you invest with a loaned money, you will end up not having discretionary income at your disposal every week, you won’t be able to continue investing if you are using the DCA strategy and at the end you will end up having little investment.

Take your time, build your financial life that you will be able to get a discretionary income before investment in bitcoin.

[JayJuanGee]

Also anyone taking a low interest loan to pay for a high interest loan should ensure to do thst only if it's their last resort,  its pointless to use a loan to pay for a loan when you can pay for it another way, it's an added risk that should not be taken unless neccessary.

If you are able to get a lower interest loan, you are lessening your risks not increasing them.  I don't see why it would be a last resort.. As soon as you find out about it, you should take it, especially if it is a meaningful difference in the rates.  Other factors to the loan, including amount,  time duration and/or other terms might be considered as well.  The terms of the various two loans might not match.

I'm not saying taking the loan is bad, I'm simply saying to take it only if you can't pay up fast enough without it,

I think that you don't know what you are talking about.

The speed at which you pay or can pay or not is almost irrelevant.

If the loan has a certain cost, and then there is an ability to get the same amount or maybe a some similar amount and then to use the proceeds from the new loan with the lower interest rate to pay off the old loan with a higher interest rate, then that seems like free money, whether it is being paid off in 6 months or 2 years or whatever. 

Of course, there could be some situations in which the lower rate is ONLY achieved by extending the loan, yet if we are using our cash to invest in bitcoin, we know that we already have a good use of our cash, so if we are getting a good interest rate on a loan, then it would be good idea to get it.. especially if our existing loans might have bad terms.

Let's say for example, we have a loan that is $10k, and it is payable monthly with an interest rate that is 8% annual, and it is due over the next 3 years.

On the other hand, we are able to either refinance it or to get another loan for $10k that has only a 4% interest rate, and it can be paid over 6 years. 

The second loan seems better even if it were to have some kind of an early payoff penalty.

if you can pay for the high interest loan without having to take out another loan (low interest) then there is no need to take the low interest then.

Well if you are just going to pay off the loan then it makes little sense, yet a lot of people have loans because they either prefer not to pay it off or they want to drag out the payments, so if you ONLY have one or two payments remaining, then it might not make sense to get another loan. 

in order to make an assessment, you can also assess the total cost of the loan over the life of the loan, and make decisions on that in terms of how much you might save, depending on the terms and how much time is remaining on the loan period of the original loan.

Also if the interest rate for the old loan is 8% and the interest rate for the new loan is 7%, the difference might not be great enough to make the change - which would partially depend upon how much principle is still outstanding and how long the term is for the loan, and if there are penalties for early payoff.  You can measure these matters rather than just blanketedly presuming one thing is better than another or that it would not be worth it to get a second loan that has a lower interest rate.

When we are investing in bitcoin and we are still building our bitcoin stash (which happens to be part of what this thread is about), then there can be quite a few motives to increase discretionary funds in one way or another, and sure there are some changes that might cause complications or not be worth making, but there are other changes that make sense in terms of overall costs and then also how payments can be spread out...  Sometimes there can also be advantages to defer payments that are optional if there are not any costs to making such deferrals or if the benefits of deferral outweigh the costs of making the deferral.    We should be able to calculate these kinds of tradeoffs rather than just proclaiming something to be better than another thing without engaging in any calculations.

I do see your point though, the faster you can pay the high interest loan  the better since you then wouldn't have to worry about the interest increasing the longer its taking to pay up the loan,

Initially, I was referring to getting a second loan that completely pays off the first loan, so then the outstanding loan amount would become the second loan that has the lower interest rates.

One of the most important aspects of a loan is its interest rates, and some folks get tricked into focusing on the wrong things, such as if there might be lower payment amounts, but if the interest rate is higher than the lower payment amounts would still be costing more.. so we tend to be better off when we are figuring out costs and benefits and trade offs for various options that might be available to us. They all add up, especially if we might be in our earliest times of building our bitcoin holdings.

Maybe over the month, we take x action, y action and z action, and each one of them saves us a certain amount of money that we are able to put into bitcoin (or to add to the amounts that we are already putting into bitcoin).

the low interest loans will be easier to pay off

low interest saves money, but they still need to be calculated properly, and frequently it is best to make sure that you understand the annual rate and even how the compounding takes place. .there can be daily compounding, quarterly compounding or some other ways of calculating that could change the effective annual rate, and if we are getting loans we should be able to calculate these numbers or at least to be able to understand how they are being calculated so that we are not paying a higher interest rate than what they are claiming the rate to be.

We can also use excel to calculate and there are probably also various websites that will help us to calculate to make sure that we understand the interest rate we are paying or that we would be paying..

Also, for example, if you get a loan that has a 9 month pay off period, and they tell you that they are charging you 8% for that period, yet if you calculate the annualized rate then the effective annualized rate would be 10.6%, which is quite a bit higher than 8%.. and that is calculated by 9/12 = 0.75...  8% (0.08)÷ 0.75 = 10.67% (.1067)
 

and in the case of any delay in paying back then the interest won't jump up too high too fast.

The pay back terms of loans need to be taken seriously, since sometimes they might have penalties for late payments, even if the payment is only a few hours past the deadline. 

If we negotiate a "pay by" date, then we should make sure to pay it on time or maybe a day early or whatever so that we don't suffer any penalties.  Sometimes, with something like rent, they might have a 5 day grace period, and then the penalties start to kick in.. so most times it is best to pay by the deadline and/or within the grace period..  unless there might be abilities to negotiate late payments.. .Most times, it is better to comply with terms that you agreed to in order to save being penalized or even burning up good will for things that you should be trying to make sure that you can comply with.

It can be similar with various utility bills that a person has.  There might be some that have a grace period and others that penalize and sometimes they might have penalties, but they don't tend to enforce unless a person is habitually out of compliance.

At the end of the day it is a smart move to make since you can cut down on how much you would have had to pay for the high interest loan in the same time frame.

Sometimes if we are comparing loan terms, we might have to make sure that we are not being tricked, but if we can negotiate (or obtain) loan terms that are better, then it can be a good idea to refinance to the loan with the better terms.

[edited out]

..........In this initial phase, our perseverance will be tested by ourselves, Such as our self-confidence, Eliminating negative thoughts and worries, and strengthening our mentality. I believe if this is Successful, We will be strong enough to buy Bitcoin for longer than our target. For example, we plan to hold for 10 years, but with strong conviction, we can increase our holding period to 20 years.

I doubt that there is any value to change the target for the mere sake of it, and yeah, maybe we start out investing and we have a $30k per year income and we would like to reach a stage in which our bitcoin will support us at $80k per year (without working or being able to stop working) and maybe after 10 years we have not yet gotten close to meeting our goal, and maybe even we have to tweak our goal based on changes in our income, changes in cost of living and various changes in our expectations.

There does tend to be value in holding longer and building longer, yet if we start investing and we are hopefully making progress each year, we can revise our target and target expectations based on measurements of our progress (and maybe even set backs from time to time).

One of the funny things about investing is that sometimes the compounding effects can become quite great and there might be times that we are not measuring much progress, but then there might be other times that our category of progress does some kind of a step up, so maybe in my example after 6 years the guy might see that he has not even quite invested a whole year of his income into bitcoin, so he might ONLY have an ability to sustainably withdraw in the ballpark of $8k per year (which is about 1/10th the targeted amount), but then maybe after another 4 years, he is able to measure that he has an ability to sustainably withdraw around $20k per year, which is starting to show quite tremendous progress, even though the amount is still 1/4 the targeted amount, and it may also be the case that after 10 years, he realizes that his income has gone up so he had been able to increase his bitcoin accumulations and he also realizes that he might need to raise his target income level up to $120k per year.. .just to account for some of the surprise changes in the cost of living...and maybe his expectations that he might need another 5 more years of accumulation and perhaps even a year or two or waiting (maintaining), even though he had initially considered that he might be able to reach his goal in 10-12 years.

[Cyber_warrior]

That why it is said to invest with you discretionary income, taking loans to invest is like investing with what you can afford to lose, with that your emotions tends to get the bette of your investment when the market is not going the way you want.

When you invest with a loaned money, you will end up not having discretionary income at your disposal every week, you won’t be able to continue investing if you are using the DCA strategy and at the end you will end up having little investment.

Take your time, build your financial life that you will be able to get a discretionary income before investment in bitcoin.

It's not totally wrong to take loans to invest. As long as you are able to allocate part of your income for the repayment and also has your necessary expenses taken care of then it's not really a bad thing to do. Loans give you fast access to money and since Investing shouldn't be delayed loans can be helpful yet you just have to make sure your repayment plan is well structured in a way that you are still able to take care of your needs without unnecessary pressure. If your finances are properly managed you can take a loan and pay back without pressure.

Taking loan doesn't also stop your DCA strategy. So far you don't use all your income to clear your loan you can invest if you have discretionary income left after taking care of your important expenses and setting aside some for your debt.

[Alonso_]

Owing debts doesn't stop Bitcoin investment as long as you have discretionary income left and your expenses are taken care of.
The only time you don't get to invest is when you don't have discretionary income left after taking care of your expenses or your income is barely enough to settle your necessary expenses. But if otherwise then there's no reason to delay your investment just because you're owing debts.

That is very true, owing debt doesn’t stop an investor from investing in Bitcoin, considering that you have a discretionary income, in as much as you have a discretionary income leftover money after paying for your bills and expenses then you have serviced your loans or whatever money that you’re owing, and you have a discretionary income then you can invest and buy bitcoin as soon as possible.

But if after paying for your expenses and bills and you don’t have a leftover money discretionary income then I after servicing your loans then it would be impossible to investing in bitcoin.

The best thing to do is take care of your expenses and bills then after that you can service your loans, and keep buying bitcoin, when you are done with paying for your loans then you can be buying bitcoin on a more consistent and regular basis.

I think it's not okay for one to get serious with accumulation of Bitcoin while your debt is due and reading or interest increasing, or ignoring your basic necessities and aggressively accumulating Bitcoin. Such acts will only return you to square zero when the pressure mounts up. That's even why it is advisable to just invest within your means and avoid borrowing to invest. Some investors have borrowed to invest just because some persons have gone ahead of them, or they want to be aggressively involved in the market while neglecting there basic needs. So its best to buy within your means, and not out your investment at risk buy borrowing unnecessarily or buying aggressively when you don't have extra funds to do it

Well you should still understand that at some point you find yourself in a difficult situation and you end up not doing enough for yourself, and you have no choice, but to take a loan, you see why I said you can take a loan and still be accumulating bitcoin is that, considering you have an income that is good enough to adjust with paying up your loans, and still be taking care of your financial expenses then you can actually consider taking out some loans and still you have availability of discretionary income then you can accumulate bitcoin, but considering that you’re struggling to pay your loans and you struggle with your expenses and how is that possible to have a discretionary income to buy bitcoin, I think at that point everything becomes absolutely difficult.

[Chronic Gambler9]

That why it is said to invest with you discretionary income, taking loans to invest is like investing with what you can afford to lose, with that your emotions tends to get the bette of your investment when the market is not going the way you want.

When you invest with a loaned money, you will end up not having discretionary income at your disposal every week, you won’t be able to continue investing if you are using the DCA strategy and at the end you will end up having little investment.

Take your time, build your financial life that you will be able to get a discretionary income before investment in bitcoin.

It's not totally wrong to take loans to invest. As long as you are able to allocate part of your income for the repayment and also has your necessary expenses taken care of then it's not really a bad thing to do. Loans give you fast access to money and since Investing shouldn't be delayed loans can be helpful yet you just have to make sure your repayment plan is well structured in a way that you are still able to take care of your needs without unnecessary pressure. If your finances are properly managed you can take a loan and pay back without pressure.

Taking loan doesn't also stop your DCA strategy. So far you don't use all your income to clear your loan you can invest if you have discretionary income left after taking care of your important expenses and setting aside some for your debt.

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

[RockBell]

It's not totally wrong to take loans to invest. As long as you are able to allocate part of your income for the repayment and also has your necessary expenses taken care of then it's not really a bad thing to do. Loans give you fast access to money and since Investing shouldn't be delayed loans can be helpful yet you just have to make sure your repayment plan is well structured in a way that you are still able to take care of your needs without unnecessary pressure. If your finances are properly managed you can take a loan and pay back without pressure.

Taking loan to invest is not wrong because u have watched rich people take good loans with the intention of boosting there business and that is exactly how it is suppose to be because, there are some money that you don't have a choice than to take a loan and there is not guarantee that everything is going to work well even after taking the loan so it is more of a 50/50 situation a lot of things can happen in this period, just that most since they are investing to get the money back with the returns and it takes a lot to manage finace so you can not even take chances.

Taking loan doesn't also stop your DCA strategy. So far you don't use all your income to clear your loan you can invest if you have discretionary income left after taking care of your important expenses and setting aside some for your debt.

It does not stop DCA but instead of taking loan is it not better to just work strategically to make things more easy foe you because taking loan is another financial problem that needs to be solved with a period of time so better still just do you DCA and stick to it because if the price is down, you will have to wait for the price to bounce back before you think of paying back and also making profit and also paying interest on the loan so which one would you prefer.

[JayJuanGee]

That why it is said to invest with you discretionary income, taking loans to invest is like investing with what you can afford to lose, with that your emotions tends to get the bette of your investment when the market is not going the way you want.

When you invest with a loaned money, you will end up not having discretionary income at your disposal every week, you won’t be able to continue investing if you are using the DCA strategy and at the end you will end up having little investment.

Take your time, build your financial life that you will be able to get a discretionary income before investment in bitcoin.

It's not totally wrong to take loans to invest. As long as you are able to allocate part of your income for the repayment and also has your necessary expenses taken care of then it's not really a bad thing to do. Loans give you fast access to money and since Investing shouldn't be delayed loans can be helpful yet you just have to make sure your repayment plan is well structured in a way that you are still able to take care of your needs without unnecessary pressure. If your finances are properly managed you can take a loan and pay back without pressure.

Taking loan doesn't also stop your DCA strategy. So far you don't use all your income to clear your loan you can invest if you have discretionary income left after taking care of your important expenses and setting aside some for your debt.

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

I already responded to these ideas of loans, and I said that loans are more advance techniques, so one of the main ways of getting started investing in bitcoin tends to involve investing within your discretionary funds and to build up your back up funds and it does not involve loans.. .especially in the beginning.

Loans can be used to buy bitcoin and/or to shore up cashflow matters, even though there are needs to calculate the various costs of the loans and to have an ability (or even various abilities) to pay them back even if the bitcoin prices go down after using the loan money to buy bitcoin (and/or to shore up cashflows).

So there is a need to have source money from other places besides bitcoin proceeds, otherwise taking a loan would be gambling rather than investing, and I don't recommend gambling in regards to bitcoin.

By the way, if you have gambler in your name, you might not even know what investing is, so hopefully you are chiming into this thread to talk about investing rather than trading and/or gambling.

[Tonimez]

[Edited out]

it is very unwise and wrong approach for any investor of such a highly volatile asset like bitcoin to borrow money to invest and still rely on his bitcoin investment for the repayment of such debt or loans. anyone who does that is a gambler who is gambling and messing around with his investment with such a traders mindset. most times people keep getting the whole idea wrong in terms of borrowing money to start or to sustain their bitcoin investment. its not as if one cannot borrow money to invest in bitcoin, you can actually borrow if the need be but when borrowing such money you shouldnt depend on your bitcoin investment for the repayment, so it will be very unwise to borrow money without making plans of repayment when due and even more wrongly done when youre depending on the performance of your bitcoin investment for the repayment. the advise is, if you know you are depending on your bitcoin investment for the repayment of debts then dont borrow to invest, but if you know you arent depending on it for its repayment then you can borrow.

You have done justice to the context of borrowing to invest in bitcoin because most times it looks like it's completely absurd to borrow and invest in bitcoin. What really makes borrowing to invest in bitcoin bad is your repayment plan for the loan. You cannot hope to pay back a loan borrowed with bitcoin profit because bitcoin is not a trade that you are fully sure of making gains at any point you sell within a short period of time.

This boils down to creating an avenue for an alternative source of income because you need to have an active source of income to be able to repay a loan. When you fail to plan well before collecting a loan, you already plan to fail. You must know that your bitcoin investment is something for the future and not something you can mount the pressure of paying back loan on to avoid loosing your bitcoin stash or selling prematurely.

[The Founding Titan]

Also anyone taking a low interest loan to pay for a high interest loan should ensure to do thst only if it's their last resort,  its pointless to use a loan to pay for a loan when you can pay for it another way, it's an added risk that should not be taken unless neccessary.

If you are able to get a lower interest loan, you are lessening your risks not increasing them.  I don't see why it would be a last resort.. As soon as you find out about it, you should take it, especially if it is a meaningful difference in the rates.  Other factors to the loan, including amount,  time duration and/or other terms might be considered as well.  The terms of the various two loans might not match.

I'm not saying taking the loan is bad, I'm simply saying to take it only if you can't pay up fast enough without it,

I think that you don't know what you are talking about.

The speed at which you pay or can pay or not is almost irrelevant.

If the loan has a certain cost, and then there is an ability to get the same amount or maybe a some similar amount and then to use the proceeds from the new loan with the lower interest rate to pay off the old loan with a higher interest rate, then that seems like free money, whether it is being paid off in 6 months or 2 years or whatever. 

Of course, there could be some situations in which the lower rate is ONLY achieved by extending the loan, yet if we are using our cash to invest in bitcoin, we know that we already have a good use of our cash, so if we are getting a good interest rate on a loan, then it would be good idea to get it.. especially if our existing loans might have bad terms.

Let's say for example, we have a loan that is $10k, and it is payable monthly with an interest rate that is 8% annual, and it is due over the next 3 years.

On the other hand, we are able to either refinance it or to get another loan for $10k that has only a 4% interest rate, and it can be paid over 6 years. 

The second loan seems better even if it were to have some kind of an early payoff penalty.

if you can pay for the high interest loan without having to take out another loan (low interest) then there is no need to take the low interest then.

Well if you are just going to pay off the loan then it makes little sense, yet a lot of people have loans because they either prefer not to pay it off or they want to drag out the payments, so if you ONLY have one or two payments remaining, then it might not make sense to get another loan. 

in order to make an assessment, you can also assess the total cost of the loan over the life of the loan, and make decisions on that in terms of how much you might save, depending on the terms and how much time is remaining on the loan period of the original loan.

Also if the interest rate for the old loan is 8% and the interest rate for the new loan is 7%, the difference might not be great enough to make the change - which would partially depend upon how much principle is still outstanding and how long the term is for the loan, and if there are penalties for early payoff.  You can measure these matters rather than just blanketedly presuming one thing is better than another or that it would not be worth it to get a second loan that has a lower interest rate.

When we are investing in bitcoin and we are still building our bitcoin stash (which happens to be part of what this thread is about), then there can be quite a few motives to increase discretionary funds in one way or another, and sure there are some changes that might cause complications or not be worth making, but there are other changes that make sense in terms of overall costs and then also how payments can be spread out...  Sometimes there can also be advantages to defer payments that are optional if there are not any costs to making such deferrals or if the benefits of deferral outweigh the costs of making the deferral.    We should be able to calculate these kinds of tradeoffs rather than just proclaiming something to be better than another thing without engaging in any calculations.

I do see your point though, the faster you can pay the high interest loan  the better since you then wouldn't have to worry about the interest increasing the longer its taking to pay up the loan,

Initially, I was referring to getting a second loan that completely pays off the first loan, so then the outstanding loan amount would become the second loan that has the lower interest rates.

One of the most important aspects of a loan is its interest rates, and some folks get tricked into focusing on the wrong things, such as if there might be lower payment amounts, but if the interest rate is higher than the lower payment amounts would still be costing more.. so we tend to be better off when we are figuring out costs and benefits and trade offs for various options that might be available to us. They all add up, especially if we might be in our earliest times of building our bitcoin holdings.

Maybe over the month, we take x action, y action and z action, and each one of them saves us a certain amount of money that we are able to put into bitcoin (or to add to the amounts that we are already putting into bitcoin).

the low interest loans will be easier to pay off

low interest saves money, but they still need to be calculated properly, and frequently it is best to make sure that you understand the annual rate and even how the compounding takes place. .there can be daily compounding, quarterly compounding or some other ways of calculating that could change the effective annual rate, and if we are getting loans we should be able to calculate these numbers or at least to be able to understand how they are being calculated so that we are not paying a higher interest rate than what they are claiming the rate to be.

We can also use excel to calculate and there are probably also various websites that will help us to calculate to make sure that we understand the interest rate we are paying or that we would be paying..

Also, for example, if you get a loan that has a 9 month pay off period, and they tell you that they are charging you 8% for that period, yet if you calculate the annualized rate then the effective annualized rate would be 10.6%, which is quite a bit higher than 8%.. and that is calculated by 9/12 = 0.75...  8% (0.08)÷ 0.75 = 10.67% (.1067)
 

and in the case of any delay in paying back then the interest won't jump up too high too fast.

The pay back terms of loans need to be taken seriously, since sometimes they might have penalties for late payments, even if the payment is only a few hours past the deadline. 

If we negotiate a "pay by" date, then we should make sure to pay it on time or maybe a day early or whatever so that we don't suffer any penalties.  Sometimes, with something like rent, they might have a 5 day grace period, and then the penalties start to kick in.. so most times it is best to pay by the deadline and/or within the grace period..  unless there might be abilities to negotiate late payments.. .Most times, it is better to comply with terms that you agreed to in order to save being penalized or even burning up good will for things that you should be trying to make sure that you can comply with.

It can be similar with various utility bills that a person has.  There might be some that have a grace period and others that penalize and sometimes they might have penalties, but they don't tend to enforce unless a person is habitually out of compliance.

At the end of the day it is a smart move to make since you can cut down on how much you would have had to pay for the high interest loan in the same time frame.

Sometimes if we are comparing loan terms, we might have to make sure that we are not being tricked, but if we can negotiate (or obtain) loan terms that are better, then it can be a good idea to refinance to the loan with the better terms.

Understood sir.
Thanks for clearing it up for me

[Livingleged]

[Edited out]

it is very unwise and wrong approach for any investor of such a highly volatile asset like bitcoin to borrow money to invest and still rely on his bitcoin investment for the repayment of such debt or loans. anyone who does that is a gambler who is gambling and messing around with his investment with such a traders mindset. most times people keep getting the whole idea wrong in terms of borrowing money to start or to sustain their bitcoin investment. its not as if one cannot borrow money to invest in bitcoin, you can actually borrow if the need be but when borrowing such money you shouldnt depend on your bitcoin investment for the repayment, so it will be very unwise to borrow money without making plans of repayment when due and even more wrongly done when youre depending on the performance of your bitcoin investment for the repayment. the advise is, if you know you are depending on your bitcoin investment for the repayment of debts then dont borrow to invest, but if you know you arent depending on it for its repayment then you can borrow.

You have done justice to the context of borrowing to invest in bitcoin because most times it looks like it's completely absurd to borrow and invest in bitcoin. What really makes borrowing to invest in bitcoin bad is your repayment plan for the loan. You cannot hope to pay back a loan borrowed with bitcoin profit because bitcoin is not a trade that you are fully sure of making gains at any point you sell within a short period of time.

This boils down to creating an avenue for an alternative source of income because you need to have an active source of income to be able to repay a loan. When you fail to plan well before collecting a loan, you already plan to fail. You must know that your bitcoin investment is something for the future and not something you can mount the pressure of paying back loan on to avoid loosing your bitcoin stash or selling prematurely.

Exactly… I’ve just came across this thread just recently, and I got to understand the point@JJG is making which is clear that;
- investment in bitcoin most especially should be the utmost priority! This I strongly I agree with.

-Loan can be a setback not to start investing if you don’t have other means to pay back your loan aside the money you borrowed for the investment.

-Even if the loan has high interest, that should not  scare you and make you shy away from investing so long as you have proper plan to pay the loan along side investing with your discretionary income.

-it’s is always Advantageous and a step ahead to be among the early bird to investment regardless.

-I think this few point should help anybody that is confused and thinking what to do between clearing debt before considering investment, or doing the two simultaneously without having to any challenge.

This really has changed my thinking honestly. I now consider investing first before any-other things since I know i have got some discretionary fund.

[Zackz5000]

That why it is said to invest with you discretionary income, taking loans to invest is like investing with what you can afford to lose, with that your emotions tends to get the bette of your investment when the market is not going the way you want.

When you invest with a loaned money, you will end up not having discretionary income at your disposal every week, you won’t be able to continue investing if you are using the DCA strategy and at the end you will end up having little investment.

Take your time, build your financial life that you will be able to get a discretionary income before investment in bitcoin.

It's not totally wrong to take loans to invest. As long as you are able to allocate part of your income for the repayment and also has your necessary expenses taken care of then it's not really a bad thing to do. Loans give you fast access to money and since Investing shouldn't be delayed loans can be helpful yet you just have to make sure your repayment plan is well structured in a way that you are still able to take care of your needs without unnecessary pressure. If your finances are properly managed you can take a loan and pay back without pressure.

Taking loan doesn't also stop your DCA strategy. So far you don't use all your income to clear your loan you can invest if you have discretionary income left after taking care of your important expenses and setting aside some for your debt.

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

You just want to start and you want to start with optioning for a loan to get started, well i wouldn't advice you to do so Bitcoin is not a short time investment but a long one so if you can't yet figure out your discretionary income don't borrow to invest in Bitcoin because you will definitely sell back to repay your loan and you might also sell below the price you bought at that time you lost , but if you can figure out your discretionary income you can get started and if you will also have to borrow make sure you have other means to pay back without depending on your Bitcoin investment to do so.

[Cgrexp]

That why it is said to invest with you discretionary income, taking loans to invest is like investing with what you can afford to lose, with that your emotions tends to get the bette of your investment when the market is not going the way you want.

When you invest with a loaned money, you will end up not having discretionary income at your disposal every week, you won’t be able to continue investing if you are using the DCA strategy and at the end you will end up having little investment.

Take your time, build your financial life that you will be able to get a discretionary income before investment in bitcoin.

It's not totally wrong to take loans to invest. As long as you are able to allocate part of your income for the repayment and also has your necessary expenses taken care of then it's not really a bad thing to do. Loans give you fast access to money and since Investing shouldn't be delayed loans can be helpful yet you just have to make sure your repayment plan is well structured in a way that you are still able to take care of your needs without unnecessary pressure. If your finances are properly managed you can take a loan and pay back without pressure.

Taking loan doesn't also stop your DCA strategy. So far you don't use all your income to clear your loan you can invest if you have discretionary income left after taking care of your important expenses and setting aside some for your debt.

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

You just want to start and you want to start with optioning for a loan to get started, well i wouldn't advice you to do so Bitcoin is not a short time investment but a long one so if you can't yet figure out your discretionary income don't borrow to invest in Bitcoin because you will definitely sell back to repay your loan and you might also sell below the price you bought at that time you lost , but if you can figure out your discretionary income you can get started and if you will also have to borrow make sure you have other means to pay back without depending on your Bitcoin investment to do so.

When someone invests with a loan, it is not his extra money. I think taking a loan means that the person does not have extra money after meeting all his necessary expenses, due to which he has to take a loan. And most people do not have the mentality to lose the borrowed money. Therefore, every investor is told to invest from a discretionary income. Because if you invest with such money, the loss will not affect your daily life and at the same time it will not create a problem of paying off the loan or a deficit like investing from an emergency fund. Investing with borrowed money loses patience. An investor should ask himself whether he has the ability to handle losses from wherever he invests.

[Rockson1]

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

With your statement, it means you do not have any repayment plan since ordinary you do not have capital and may not know how to figure out your discreationary from whatever source you have available so you think getting a loan is the best way to start Bitcoin I mean for someone in your financial status, don't even attempt that, what you have to do is to start from somewhere, it is very important for you to understand that this idea will not work for you, as newbie thats ready to start acumulating Bitcoin especially someone that fall within what you just narrated, accessing a loan is not for you, hope you understand that Bitcoin is a long-term investment as such you are not supposed to withdraw any dime from your portfolio for any purpose since you are buying to hodl for a long-term, so how do you intend to pay back your loan if let's say the loan repayment plan is monthly which might be spread across 2years or more and with your statement otbks obvious that you do not have money, I'm not saying you won't have money on the line but we can work with might when it comes to loan, so you should desist from such idea because it is not a nice one for you.