JJG’s Outline of Bitcoin Investment Ideas

[Joeboy]

I already responded to these ideas of loans, and I said that loans are more advance techniques, so one of the main ways of getting started investing in bitcoin tends to involve investing within your discretionary funds and to build up your back up funds and it does not involve loans.. .especially in the beginning.

Loans can be used to buy bitcoin and/or to shore up cashflow matters, even though there are needs to calculate the various costs of the loans and to have an ability (or even various abilities) to pay them back even if the bitcoin prices go down after using the loan money to buy bitcoin (and/or to shore up cashflows).

So there is a need to have source money from other places besides bitcoin proceeds, otherwise taking a loan would be gambling rather than investing, and I don't recommend gambling in regards to bitcoin.

By the way, if you have gambler in your name, you might not even know what investing is, so hopefully you are chiming into this thread to talk about investing rather than trading and/or gambling.

Surely sir I very much agree with you on this... Most folks tends to kickstart their accumulation journey with the mindset that the price will always go up and perform exactly as it did in the past, thereby neglecting what may happen if the price dosen't go as they expect...Truly Bitcoin exceeded many of our expectations in the previous years, but yet again it's current price appreciation is not always guaranteed, and so it wouldn't be a good idea for a newbie to invest with a loan, when they are yet to build any kind of savings or backup funds which could very well be used in repayment of their loan.. Depending on Bitcoin to repay your loan is pure gambling, coz no one can say for sure or predict what will happen in the market... And so folks should only invest using loan if they can repay that loan without necessarily depending on the proceeds of their Bitcoin investment..

[SmartCharpa]

We must buy consistently when we're in the accumulation phase. There's no need to force ourselves to develop various strategies at the beginning of our purchases, We should simply focus on weekly purchases.

The Bitcoin accumulation phase simply requires increasing our focus and purpose. If we can focus, we won't miss a single step in buying Bitcoin. Our purpose is long term, So we won't worry about today's or tomorrow's price because our target is long term.

In this initial phase, our perseverance will be tested by ourselves, Such as our self-confidence, Eliminating negative thoughts and worries, and strengthening our mentality. I believe if this is Successful, We will be strong enough to buy Bitcoin for longer than our target. For example, we plan to hold for 10 years, but with strong conviction, we can increase our holding period to 20 years.

I agree with you, during the process of buying Bitcoin, the best thing is buy little by little whether weekly or monthly, depending on your financial situation. Long term Investors do not need to stress themselves too much trying a new strategy, or bother with the price because the goal is to hold for a long term. Bitcoin investment requires patience and don’t let your emotions control you, because the price changing will make you fear and panic sometimes. But that always happens and during that period, long term investors continue to invest with more confidence to reach their targets.

It is not a good idea to take loan to invest in bitcoin and then to become a debtor. Taking loan without any plans on how to salvage the loan in the future is very wrong. As for bitcoin investment,  you don't need to be carried all in the name of wanting to increase the stash of bitcoin in your bitcoin holdings by going to take loan and then end up putting oneself into tight corner or unnecessary pressure.

Bitcoin is a volatile asset, the price change up and down, if the match go down deeply, the pressure might be too much, that’s why it not advisable for anyone to take a loan to invest in bitcoin. People who understand bitcoin prefer to invest with the money they can afford to lose or money they will not need anytime soon. It’s better to build your accumulation gradually with the money you can afford, instead of taking a loan and end up worrying yourself if the market does not operate the way you expected.

[Finebone]

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

Starting your bitcoin investment journey with a loan is a bad idea, and you should never go that route, because with your above statement, it looks like you don't have a discretionary income or source of discretionary income, which is what keeps your accumulation consistent. So my advice to you is that, since you don't have a discretionary income to invest consistently with, what you should do , is by looking for a job or any other source of discretionary income, so that you can accumulate and invest consistently through the discretionary income you were able to figure out from your source of income.
So don't ever consider taking any loan this moment because you don't have any means of paying it back, so it's a bad idea to start off your Bitcoin investment that way, because you will either sell off your investment to pay off the loan or you might not even be able to repay back the loan, since the value of Bitcoin might be down when the loan is due, so it's a horrible idea from start to finish.

[liasbaa]

In life there must always be a challenge or challenges wether we like it or not because life is not a bed of roses though some people seems not to have any challenge or trouble that is because of how they have prepared themselves to overcome challenge without making it look like there was... I'm not a fan of loan but there are time or period it can be necessary and if you have a means you can use to offset it later then going for a loan is not really a bad idea even institutions, organization and private individual do take loan so the most important thing is having a means to repay.

  At times in someone's life one needs to take some risk that are worth taking. Applying for loan is something i try my possible best to neglect as a man but at times to get somethings done very quickly we definitely need high amount of funds which we know our salary or wages would not be enough for it. And basically am not talking about bitcoin invesment alone just giving instance on real life scenarior.
   life is full of challenges so we should always be ready for what so ever life might shoot against us. we can be in debts and still move along with our bitcoin investment  so far our discretionary income are in check.

It is not a good idea to take loan to invest in bitcoin and then to become a debtor. Taking loan without any plans on how to salvage the loan in the future is very wrong. As for bitcoin investment,  you don't need to be carried all in the name of wanting to increase the stash of bitcoin in your bitcoin holdings by going to take loan and then end up putting oneself into tight corner or unnecessary pressure.

Bitcoin should never be invested in debt or aggressively, and I think it will never be possible to hold Bitcoin in the long term by borrowing or aggressively investing. The reason we continue with long-term Bitcoin investments is because we invest in Bitcoin with prudent income. Bitcoin should be invested with as much money as you can afford to lose, so that no investor faces danger with his Bitcoin holdings in the future.
These are things that every Bitcoin investor must know, so every investor or new person should be careful of the idea that Bitcoin should not be invested in debt in any way.

In the sense of borrowing and investing aggressively, I think that doesn't make any sense because it will affect the investment whether the investor like it or not but investing aggressively from our discretionary income will not affect  an investor that knows what he or she is doing because there are investors that doesn't really know what they are doing to some point. There is nothing wrong in been aggressive with your discretionary income but I don't encourage someone to be agressive with a borrowed money.

You can do aggressive DCA by borrowing to accumulate Bitcoin if you have multiple sources of income and you have alternative sources of repayment in due time. Aggressively accumulating Bitcoin is not a problem if you have the financial stamina, be it through borrowed money or through discretionary income.
You need to be determined to accumulate Bitcoin for the long term and be financially prepared to do so. Investment decisions through borrowed funds have proven to be wrong in most cases for poor investors as they plan for short term profits and make decisions based on emotions. While there is nothing wrong with being aggressive through discretionary income make sure you have an emergency fund and it is enough to cover at least 3-4 months of income shortfall.

[Chronic Gambler9]

I already responded to these ideas of loans, and I said that loans are more advance techniques, so one of the main ways of getting started investing in bitcoin tends to involve investing within your discretionary funds and to build up your back up funds and it does not involve loans.. .especially in the beginning.

Loans can be used to buy bitcoin and/or to shore up cashflow matters, even though there are needs to calculate the various costs of the loans and to have an ability (or even various abilities) to pay them back even if the bitcoin prices go down after using the loan money to buy bitcoin (and/or to shore up cashflows).

So there is a need to have source money from other places besides bitcoin proceeds, otherwise taking a loan would be gambling rather than investing, and I don't recommend gambling in regards to bitcoin.

By the way, if you have gambler in your name, you might not even know what investing is, so hopefully you are chiming into this thread to talk about investing rather than trading and/or gambling.

Okay, noted. As a beginner I need to get a steady source of income where I Can get discretionary income from so I won’t tend to make lot of wrong decisions during the investment.

I do get a lot of wrong impression about my name but I’m here to invest rather to think of gambling or trading. I’m here to invest and make plans for my future. Thanks for the clarity again.

[Charcol]

[Edited out]

it is very unwise and wrong approach for any investor of such a highly volatile asset like bitcoin to borrow money to invest and still rely on his bitcoin investment for the repayment of such debt or loans. anyone who does that is a gambler who is gambling and messing around with his investment with such a traders mindset. most times people keep getting the whole idea wrong in terms of borrowing money to start or to sustain their bitcoin investment. its not as if one cannot borrow money to invest in bitcoin, you can actually borrow if the need be but when borrowing such money you shouldnt depend on your bitcoin investment for the repayment, so it will be very unwise to borrow money without making plans of repayment when due and even more wrongly done when youre depending on the performance of your bitcoin investment for the repayment. the advise is, if you know you are depending on your bitcoin investment for the repayment of debts then dont borrow to invest, but if you know you arent depending on it for its repayment then you can borrow.

You have done justice to the context of borrowing to invest in bitcoin because most times it looks like it's completely absurd to borrow and invest in bitcoin. What really makes borrowing to invest in bitcoin bad is your repayment plan for the loan. You cannot hope to pay back a loan borrowed with bitcoin profit because bitcoin is not a trade that you are fully sure of making gains at any point you sell within a short period of time.

This boils down to creating an avenue for an alternative source of income because you need to have an active source of income to be able to repay a loan. When you fail to plan well before collecting a loan, you already plan to fail. You must know that your bitcoin investment is something for the future and not something you can mount the pressure of paying back loan on to avoid loosing your bitcoin stash or selling prematurely.

Exactly… I’ve just came across this thread just recently, and I got to understand the point@JJG is making which is clear that;
- investment in bitcoin most especially should be the utmost priority! This I strongly I agree with.

@JJG's view is that priorities depend on a person's cash flow, type of loan, interest rate, emergency fund, family, time frame, risk tolerance, and how much Bitcoin they already have.

-Even if the loan has high interest, that should not  scare you and make you shy away from investing so long as you have proper plan to pay the loan along side investing with your discretionary income.

High interest rates are one thing that will almost certainly put a direct strain on your cash flow.I am optimistic that Bitcoin will do well in the future, but there is no guarantee that it will or will not. So I would say that if someone has a very high interest rate on their loan, they need to consider the total cost of the loan, the interest rate, the term of the installments, and even the state of their emergency fund before getting too aggressive with Bitcoin.I am not saying that you should pay off your loan first, then invest.It is also not that Bitcoin comes first. A realistic position in between these two is to divide your financial situation. For example, if someone has $300 of discretionary income, they might put $100 in a backup fund, $100 in debt reduction, and $100 in DCA. Someone else might consider their own situation and put $200 in debt and $50 in Bitcoin. Again,if someone has a low interest rate on their loan and a good backup fund, they might put more of it in Bitcoin.Can give. In a word,the same rule does not apply to everyone. You have to decide for yourself by understanding your own financial situation.But I just tried to explain with an example.

[nara1892]

I already responded to these ideas of loans, and I said that loans are more advance techniques, so one of the main ways of getting started investing in bitcoin tends to involve investing within your discretionary funds and to build up your back up funds and it does not involve loans.. .especially in the beginning.

Loans can be used to buy bitcoin and/or to shore up cashflow matters, even though there are needs to calculate the various costs of the loans and to have an ability (or even various abilities) to pay them back even if the bitcoin prices go down after using the loan money to buy bitcoin (and/or to shore up cashflows).

So there is a need to have source money from other places besides bitcoin proceeds, otherwise taking a loan would be gambling rather than investing, and I don't recommend gambling in regards to bitcoin.

By the way, if you have gambler in your name, you might not even know what investing is, so hopefully you are chiming into this thread to talk about investing rather than trading and/or gambling.

Okay, noted. As a beginner I need to get a steady source of income where I Can get discretionary income from so I won’t tend to make lot of wrong decisions during the investment.

I do get a lot of wrong impression about my name but I’m here to invest rather to think of gambling or trading. I’m here to invest and make plans for my future. Thanks for the clarity again.

Yes, your first task is to ensure you have a steady and stable income. However, this doesn't mean you can immediately start investing once you have it. The point is, first check to see if you have any income left over after you've covered all your monthly living expenses. If there isn't, I don't think you should force it.

Personally, there are several things I need to fulfill before I start accumulating Bitcoin. First, I need to have a stable income, set aside an emergency fund, and also have other businesses outside of my main job. The goal is simple: if something unexpected happens that requires me to spend money, I won't have to touch my Bitcoin assets because I have an emergency fund and income from my side business to cover the problem.

[Rockstarguy]

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

Firstly, you don't need a capital to invest in Bitcoin, and you also don't need to take a loan to invest in Bitcoin. What you need to invest in Bitcoin is income, and you can invest in Bitcoin with the amount you can afford. The most important thing you need is just the income, and having this, you need to understand how to manage your income by setting aside money that is meant for expenses. Whatever is left is your discretionary income, which from here you can figure out the amount you can use to buy Bitcoin.

The reason taking a loan is not a good idea is that Bitcoin is a long-term investment, and taking a loan simply means that you see Bitcoin as an investment that can provide quick profit. Bitcoin is an investment that requires good planning, and if you approach it in the wrong way, it will definitely affect you, and the investment won't be successful in the end.

[Bright0515]

Yes, your first task is to ensure you have a steady and stable income.

I understand your point clearly but I guess you saying it like this looks more like you are trying to convince beginners to ensure that they have stable income before they start buying Bitcoin.
However, based on my little knowledge, I believe that all you need is your discretionary income, having multiple income only helps you to increase the amount you are DCA'ing with or buy Bitcoin aggressively if you have spare an unexpected money or excessive funds which you won't be needing till the next 3 - 4 years time.
To be honest, everything can not just be perfect. Well my point is that if you wait till you get everything sorted out, you might end up waiting forever without buying any Bitcoin because most times things doesn't work the way we expect them to be. So what's why it's important to start immediately you have spare money to buy Bitcoin.
Actually it is very important to learn and develop the mindset of investment early so that you will achieve your targets earlier as well. Although no time is late but the perfect time to start investing into Bitcoin is when you have the spare money to buy it (no matter how little it is).
Honestly, with the bold part of your comment I think it can discourage beginners with low source of income to start buying Bitcoin, as you already stated that they should ensure that they have stable income.

However, this doesn't mean you can immediately start investing once you have it.

You can not buy Bitcoin with the money for your survival because you will end up selling at loss. So before buying Bitcoin all you need to do is settle all necessary expenses, and also keep some funds for emergency situations, then if after all the necessary bills has been sorted out and you have some leftover money (no matter how little it is), what you need to do is invest with it.

[New Judgement]

Bitcoin is a volatile asset, the price change up and down, if the match go down deeply, the pressure might be too much, that’s why it not advisable for anyone to take a loan to invest in bitcoin. People who understand bitcoin prefer to invest with the money they can afford to lose or money they will not need anytime soon. It’s better to build your accumulation gradually with the money you can afford, instead of taking a loan and end up worrying yourself if the market does not operate the way you expected.

Taking a loan to invest in bitcoin is not the problem, but taking a loan and hoping to repay the loan with proceeds from the bitcoin investment is where the problem is, and that’s what we are against. You don’t have a problem taking a loan to invest in bitcoin, provided you have other means of settling the loan and the interest of the loan outside the bitcoin you are accumulating with the loaned money. For instance you did a contract and your payment is due in two months time, but as of today you saw an opportunity in the market which you want to capitalize on, you approached a friend to loan you some money that you will repay him in two months time when your contract money is due to be paid to you. He loaned you the money, and you invested it in bitcoin. Two months later, your contract money arrived your account, and you repaid your loan and the interest to your friend. No long talks and no delay. In cases like this, it is not wrong to obtain a loan, for the purpose of investing in bitcoin. People are only discouraged on taking a loan to invest in bitcoin when they don’t have other laid out plans to repay the loan.

[Showlove01]

That why it is said to invest with you discretionary income, taking loans to invest is like investing with what you can afford to lose, with that your emotions tends to get the bette of your investment when the market is not going the way you want.

When you invest with a loaned money, you will end up not having discretionary income at your disposal every week, you won’t be able to continue investing if you are using the DCA strategy and at the end you will end up having little investment.

Take your time, build your financial life that you will be able to get a discretionary income before investment in bitcoin.

It's not totally wrong to take loans to invest. As long as you are able to allocate part of your income for the repayment and also has your necessary expenses taken care of then it's not really a bad thing to do. Loans give you fast access to money and since Investing shouldn't be delayed loans can be helpful yet you just have to make sure your repayment plan is well structured in a way that you are still able to take care of your needs without unnecessary pressure. If your finances are properly managed you can take a loan and pay back without pressure.

Taking loan doesn't also stop your DCA strategy. So far you don't use all your income to clear your loan you can invest if you have discretionary income left after taking care of your important expenses and setting aside some for your debt.

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

You just want to start and you want to start with optioning for a loan to get started, well i wouldn't advice you to do so Bitcoin is not a short time investment but a long one so if you can't yet figure out your discretionary income don't borrow to invest in Bitcoin because you will definitely sell back to repay your loan and you might also sell below the price you bought at that time you lost , but if you can figure out your discretionary income you can get started and if you will also have to borrow make sure you have other means to pay back without depending on your Bitcoin investment to do so.

Borrowing to invest in Bitcoin doesn't necessarily mean that person doesn't know how to figure out or sort out their discretionary income but rather the reason why an investor will borrow or take loan to invest in Bitcoin is because they may be out of discretionary income to use in their accumulation because it will be unwise for an investor to borrow or went to take loan when they already have discretionary income to invest or accumulate with.

[JayJuanGee]

[Edited out]

Exactly… I’ve just came across this thread just recently, and I got to understand the point@JJG is making which is clear that;
- investment in bitcoin most especially should be the utmost priority! This I strongly I agree with.
-Loan can be a setback not to start investing if you don’t have other means to pay back your loan aside the money you borrowed for the investment.

-Even if the loan has high interest, that should not  scare you and make you shy away from investing so long as you have proper plan to pay the loan along side investing with your discretionary income.
-it’s is always Advantageous and a step ahead to be among the early bird to investment regardless.

-I think this few point should help anybody that is confused and thinking what to do between clearing debt before considering investment, or doing the two simultaneously without having to any challenge.
This really has changed my thinking honestly. I now consider investing first before any-other things since I know i have got some discretionary fund.

These points are all fairly clear, and they do not cover everything that we were discussing about the role of loans and/or loan management in the context of anyone who is also wanting to make sure to be building his financial future to include bitcoin in the mix.

There are truths that guys end up becoming way too overly burdened with loans, so there continues to be advantages in keeping loans manageable and paying attentions to loan terms so that higher interest rate loans are paid off faster, and yeah, if there are barely available any discretionary funds because so many loans are outstanding, then that surely should be a sign that the loan burden may well be too much and there may well be some value in either reducing the loan burden or otherwise figuring out ways to increase discretionary funds by increasing income and/or cutting expenses - and since our discretionary funds can be used for investing, savings and/or discretionary consumption, we are likely going to feel better to have the ability to put value in each of those three categories and to choose our priorities.

By the way the basic levels of servicing of loans (such as the minimum payments due each month) would have had become part of basic monthly expenses, yet whenever guys pay extra towards their loans (perhaps to reduce them faster), those extra payments would be part of discretionary spending... because as long as we are complying with the minimum terms of paying the loan, when we choose to pay extra, the extra amounts are no longer part of basic expenses, but instead discretionary, even though that discretionary spending to service loans faster would end up reducing our outstanding loan debt and then also reducing our future basic expenses because the minimum payments will likely become less onerous in the future by our having had reduced the overall outstanding loan amount.

[edited out]

You just want to start and you want to start with optioning for a loan to get started, well i wouldn't advice you to do so Bitcoin is not a short time investment but a long one so if you can't yet figure out your discretionary income don't borrow to invest in Bitcoin because you will definitely sell back to repay your loan and you might also sell below the price you bought at that time you lost , but if you can figure out your discretionary income you can get started and if you will also have to borrow make sure you have other means to pay back without depending on your Bitcoin investment to do so.

I think that you have the right ideas, Zackz5000, yet you are expressing your ideas with a bit of unclarity.

Even though it is o.k. to start to invest in bitcoin when guys might already have existing debt, it is going to tend to not to be o.k. to either create more debt or to be unorganized in the management of debt when we start to invest into bitcoin.

Frequently, there is a bit of a learning curve whenever we add any new activities to our lives, including if we had not been investing into bitcoin, when we add bitcoin, we likely need to get used to it in a variety of ways.  Some guys have more experience than others in terms organizing their personal finances and also in terms of already having had been investing and having investing experiences, so surely if a guy has more knowledge, skills and experiences at the time that he comes to bitcoin, then he would already have the capability to come into bitcoin with more aggressive tactics... .. yet everyone still has to attempt to tailor to his own individual circumstances (including considering his 9 individual factors).

Over the years, one of the great things about bitcoin had been that there were ways to make a shit ton of money, even with fairly basic tactics that revolved around ongoingly building and holding bitcoin (without trading or selling) and managing personal finances in a sound way so that back up funds were always available to absorb any fluctuation in income and/or expenses.

The punchline seems to be to try to start buying bitcoin from where we are at no matter if we might start out with complicated finances or not, and our building of our bitcoin should inspire us to organize our finances in better ways to not only be able to continue to buy bitcoin, but to hold whatever bitcoin that we buy for 4-10 years or longer, and surely, we are free to consider the use of debt in our own ways of dealing with our finances and/or our cashflows, yet many times there will be advantages to making sure that we otherwise have our cashflows in good order prior to including the extra costs of servicing debts - yet ultimately each person is responsible to figure out the balances so that even if he is trying to be as aggressive as he is able to be in his building of his bitcoin stash, he makes sure that he has various back up systems in place so that he is not overdoing it, engaging in too much risk or even sometimes putting himself into worse circumstances based on the way he is managing his bitcoin investment and/or his cashflows. 

Historically in bitcoin, there have been so many guys who thought that they were smarter than everyone else and pushing matters to the limits, yet the reality of the matter ended up showing itself when they end up taking very large losses and likely even setting themselves back further because they were overdoing it without realizing their own vulnerabilities. ..and bitcoin has been such a great performing asset over the years in which basic techniques and non-leverage has ended up paying off quite well, even for poor people, yet there have been some guys who want to push limits too much, and then they ended up getting caught with inabilities to continue to hold (and/or to build) during periods in which the BTC prices ended up going down to great levels and/or staying down without going up for extended periods, so we should be attempting to prepare ourselves financially and psychologically for BTC price situations that could go in either direction and even stay in price ranges for periods that are way longer than we expected.

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

With your statement, it means you do not have any repayment plan since ordinary you do not have capital and may not know how to figure out your discreationary from whatever source you have available so you think getting a loan is the best way to start Bitcoin I mean for someone in your financial status, don't even attempt that, what you have to do is to start from somewhere, it is very important for you to understand that this idea will not work for you, as newbie thats ready to start acumulating Bitcoin especially someone that fall within what you just narrated, accessing a loan is not for you, hope you understand that Bitcoin is a long-term investment as such you are not supposed to withdraw any dime from your portfolio for any purpose since you are buying to hodl for a long-term, so how do you intend to pay back your loan if let's say the loan repayment plan is monthly which might be spread across 2years or more and with your statement otbks obvious that you do not have money, I'm not saying you won't have money on the line but we can work with might when it comes to loan, so you should desist from such idea because it is not a nice one for you.

Yep, Rockson1.  You are exactly correct to lecture Chronic Gambler9. He seems to be wanting to read his own lame ideas into investing and perhaps even just wanting to gamble or trade and likely thinking in terms of how he might be able to play this cycle, so he might not even have a timeline that is greater than 4 years - so even though he is saying that he is "investing," he really seems to be trying to figure out ways to trade bitcoin..and or use leverage with a loan, too. 

If we are really considering investing, then we likely need to build from our basics first to make sure that we are investing from our discretionary funds, and if we don't have regular funds or even some source of income that is coming in from time to time, then it is going to be difficult to maintain our bitcoin investment, and the desires to earn money from our bitcoin by putting money into it and then cashing out when the bitcoin price goes up, that tends to be a fairly risky proposition, even though surely some guys have been able to make short term profits when they invest into bitcoin in those kinds of trader/gambling ways - and really they are not investing and they are just wanting to generate income from bitcoin, so they may well not realize the value of generating income outside of bitcoin and then using the extra money (after expenses) to build up the bitcoin holdings in such a way that there is no plan to tap into the bitcoin for 4-10 years or longer, and with younger people, they are likely going to be better off to have bitcoin investment timelines that are either longer than 10 years or even considerations of how to make sure that they are holding onto bitcoin for the totality of their lives.

It is understandable that in some places in the world it can be quite difficult to earn decent amounts that both allow the payment of various basic expenses and/or even being able to live decently and also to be able to invest into bitcoin too (with the extra income), and so there are so many guys who want to generate income off the internet and/or even generate income from trading (and/or gambling), and surely there can be some niche places, including that many guys are participating in the forum and using their signature campaign funds in order to be able to buy bitcoin, when they might otherwise be struggling to have enough money every week (or month) in order to be able to buy bitcoin, and I am not going to blame guys for those kinds of activities whether their online activities end up being all of their income or merely ways to supplement other income that they might be able to generate in their physical world...

...so then yeah, there can end up being some erroneous thinking in terms of how to think about bitcoin as a fountain of funds rather than as a place to build up and to be able to later start to draw from the bitcoin once it reaches greater amounts, which may well take a couple of cycles or more before the bitcoin stash might reach a sufficient enough of a size to be able to start to be able to sustainably withdraw from it within reasonable parameters, whether a guy might want to make $8k per year from his bitcoin or $20k, or $50k, or $80k or some higher amount..

Sometimes guys get so anxious about being able to make money from their bitcoin stash that they don't even build their bitcoin stash up to a high enough amount to cause it to be sustainable, so they end up depleting the principle rather than really understanding the power of sustainable withdrawal, even if the sustainable withdrawal might supplement rather than completely replace other income sources.

Even if I might not really agree with the amounts that guys might seek to get from their bitcoin and I place value on sustainable withdrawal rather than goals to deplete the principle, guys can do what they want, yet since this is a thread about my investment ideas, I am going to tend to criticize ideas that are aiming to deplete their bitcoin holdings rather than trying to figure out sustainable withdrawal practices, except if there are cases of age and/or health or some other emergencies, then of course, guys might end up being forced into some kind of bitcoin management approaches that end up depleting the principle rather than employing sustainable withdrawal methods (practices). 

[Edited out]

High interest rates are one thing that will almost certainly put a direct strain on your cash flow.I am optimistic that Bitcoin will do well in the future, but there is no guarantee that it will or will not. So I would say that if someone has a very high interest rate on their loan, they need to consider the total cost of the loan, the interest rate, the term of the installments, and even the state of their emergency fund before getting too aggressive with Bitcoin.I am not saying that you should pay off your loan first, then invest.It is also not that Bitcoin comes first. A realistic position in between these two is to divide your financial situation. For example, if someone has $300 of discretionary income, they might put $100 in a backup fund, $100 in debt reduction, and $100 in DCA.

What about discretionary consumption?  You expect people to live and maintain social relations and even their own sanity without discretionary consumption?

I agree that your categories of $100 DCA and $100 back up funds are valid discretionary spending categories.

The $100 debt reduction might partially fit under discretionary spending, to the extent that it is optional (or extra being paid for debt servicing), yet some of the $100 is likely part of the basic monthly payments, so it would not be part of discretionary funds to the extent that it is within the minimum payment amounts... Any amount beyond the minimum would be within discretionary funds.

Another thing is that all debt is not created equal, so if a person has outstanding debt that has an interest rate that is relatively low, such as less than 5% annualized, then there might not be any incentive to pay that back early, and so a person with that kind of debt might choose to purposefully just pay only the minimum required amounts.  On the other hand, if guys have debt with interest rates that are 12% or higher, then there should be a lot of incentive to try to pay those loans down more quickly, to the extent that discretionary funds are available.. so then there might be questions about how much to put into paying down the loan early versus how much to put into stacking bitcoin.

For sure, there is some individual determinations in regards to how fast or slow to pay back loans that already exist and also there are individual determinations in regards to the extent to which any new loans might be entered into.  If guys are getting loans in order to buy consumption goods that can be problematic, even if the rate was already low, unless maybe he was going to buy the item anyhow, but people sometimes even lie to themselves about their use of consumer debt.  Sometimes guys can get loans with fairly reasonable interest rates and long durations for property related matters, but then the property would serve as collateral, so there surely can be risk to collateral based loans, even though they might be ways to get loans with more favorable terms (such as rates/duration).

Someone else might consider their own situation and put $200 in debt and $50 in Bitcoin. Again,if someone has a low interest rate on their loan and a good backup fund, they might put more of it in Bitcoin.Can give. In a word,the same rule does not apply to everyone. You have to decide for yourself by understanding your own financial situation.But I just tried to explain with an example.

This portion is fair, and largely similar to what I was saying above in regards to considering the terms of the loan, the strength of the cashflows and perhaps even considering how much bitcoin had already been accumulated.. guys who are early in their bitcoin journey may well be wanting to give higher priorities to building bitcoin as compared with guys who might have had been already building their bitcoin stash for more than a whole cycle or longer.

[BluebloodCXVI]

High interest rates are one thing that will almost certainly put a direct strain on your cash flow.I am optimistic that Bitcoin will do well in the future, but there is no guarantee that it will or will not. So I would say that if someone has a very high interest rate on their loan, they need to consider the total cost of the loan, the interest rate, the term of the installments, and even the state of their emergency fund before getting too aggressive with Bitcoin.I am not saying that you should pay off your loan first, then invest.It is also not that Bitcoin comes first. A realistic position in between these two is to divide your financial situation. For example, if someone has $300 of discretionary income, they might put $100 in a backup fund, $100 in debt reduction, and $100 in DCA.

What about discretionary consumption?  You expect people to live and maintain social relations and even their own sanity without discretionary consumption?

I agree that your categories of $100 DCA and $100 back up funds are valid discretionary spending categories.

The $100 debt reduction might partially fit under discretionary spending, to the extent that it is optional (or extra being paid for debt servicing), yet some of the $100 is likely part of the basic monthly payments, so it would not be part of discretionary funds to the extent that it is within the minimum payment amounts... Any amount beyond the minimum would be within discretionary funds.

Another thing is that all debt is not created equal, so if a person has outstanding debt that has an interest rate that is relatively low, such as less than 5% annualized, then there might not be any incentive to pay that back early, and so a person with that kind of debt might choose to purposefully just pay only the minimum required amounts.  On the other hand, if guys have debt with interest rates that are 12% or higher, then there should be a lot of incentive to try to pay those loans down more quickly, to the extent that discretionary funds are available.. so then there might be questions about how much to put into paying down the loan early versus how much to put into stacking bitcoin.

For sure, there is some individual determinations in regards to how fast or slow to pay back loans that already exist and also there are individual determinations in regards to the extent to which any new loans might be entered into.  If guys are getting loans in order to buy consumption goods that can be problematic, even if the rate was already low, unless maybe he was going to buy the item anyhow, but people sometimes even lie to themselves about their use of consumer debt.  Sometimes guys can get loans with fairly reasonable interest rates and long durations for property related matters, but then the property would serve as collateral, so there surely can be risk to collateral based loans, even though they might be ways to get loans with more favorable terms (such as rates/duration).

Your point is spot on. People can’t just strip out discretionary spending and still expect life to keep running smoothly, they still have to eat, they have to move around, maintain relationships, and have some breathing room and if they don’t do this things, everything can start to feel unsustainable pretty quickly. The same thing with debt, minimum payments are non-negotiable, you must at least pay the minimum amount required on your debt every month, anything above that is where you actually have some flexibility. And you’re also right about not treating all debts the same, it doesn’t even make sense to treat all debt the same way. Low-interest debt can sit there without much pressure, but high-interest debt is a different story because it grows on you fast and quietly eats up your money over time.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to tradeoffs, you’re constantly trying to balance between living your life, clearing obligations, and trying to grow your money. None of this things exist in isolation, so the right move usually depends on your specific situation, not a fixed rule.

Someone else might consider their own situation and put $200 in debt and $50 in Bitcoin. Again,if someone has a low interest rate on their loan and a good backup fund, they might put more of it in Bitcoin.Can give. In a word,the same rule does not apply to everyone. You have to decide for yourself by understanding your own financial situation.But I just tried to explain with an example.

This portion is fair, and largely similar to what I was saying above in regards to considering the terms of the loan, the strength of the cashflows and perhaps even considering how much bitcoin had already been accumulated.. guys who are early in their bitcoin journey may well be wanting to give higher priorities to building bitcoin as compared with guys who might have had been already building their bitcoin stash for more than a whole cycle or longer.

I think that people tend to overthink this by trying to turn it into fixed rules when it’s really not that deep in practice. I believe that once someone is honest about how much they earn, what they owe, and how stable their situation is, the right allocation usually becomes pretty clear on its own.
The bottom line is that, it’s less about competing categories and more about balance and making sure you’re not putting yourself under unnecessary pressure while still leaving room to grow.

[B-BossMan]

If we are really considering investing, then we likely need to build from our basics first to make sure that we are investing from our discretionary funds, and if we don't have regular funds or even some source of income that is coming in from time to time, then it is going to be difficult to maintain our bitcoin investment, and the desires to earn money from our bitcoin by putting money into it and then cashing out when the bitcoin price goes up, that tends to be a fairly risky proposition, even though surely some guys have been able to make short term profits when they invest into bitcoin in those kinds of trader/gambling ways - and really they are not investing and they are just wanting to generate income from bitcoin, so they may well not realize the value of generating income outside of bitcoin and then using the extra money (after expenses) to build up the bitcoin holdings in such a way that there is no plan to tap into the bitcoin for 4-10 years or longer, and with younger people, they are likely going to be better off to have bitcoin investment timelines that are either longer than 10 years or even considerations of how to make sure that they are holding onto bitcoin for the totality of their lives.

Good, you have actually highlighted a very important point, and I agree with you that before someone to starts investing in bitcoin, one should  truly focusing on building thier financial stability and also making sure that they are actually investing thier discretionary income. Using discretionary income to invest in bitcoin is actually a safer approach without any emotional stress and it also prevent panic selling during the market volatility. Also if someone doesn’t have the a steady source of income regularly,it will actually becomes more difficult for the person to hold Bitcoin for long-term growth. Many people tends to enter the market with the aim of making quick money by buying at lower and sell higher. But to me that approach Is very risky and sometimes seems as gambling to me instead of true investing.

In addition, many people now eventually realized that it's good to also make money outside Bitcoin and consistently use thier extra funds to accumulate and hold for long-term  or over may years. It's just requires patience and proper cashflow management.

[SPIDERMAN008]

Bitcoin is a volatile asset, the price change up and down, if the match go down deeply, the pressure might be too much, that’s why it not advisable for anyone to take a loan to invest in bitcoin. People who understand bitcoin prefer to invest with the money they can afford to lose or money they will not need anytime soon. It’s better to build your accumulation gradually with the money you can afford, instead of taking a loan and end up worrying yourself if the market does not operate the way you expected.

Taking a loan to invest in bitcoin is not the problem, but taking a loan and hoping to repay the loan with proceeds from the bitcoin investment is where the problem is, and that’s what we are against. You don’t have a problem taking a loan to invest in bitcoin, provided you have other means of settling the loan and the interest of the loan outside the bitcoin you are accumulating with the loaned money. For instance you did a contract and your payment is due in two months time, but as of today you saw an opportunity in the market which you want to capitalize on, you approached a friend to loan you some money that you will repay him in two months time when your contract money is due to be paid to you. He loaned you the money, and you invested it in bitcoin. Two months later, your contract money arrived your account, and you repaid your loan and the interest to your friend. No long talks and no delay. In cases like this, it is not wrong to obtain a loan, for the purpose of investing in bitcoin. People are only discouraged on taking a loan to invest in bitcoin when they don’t have other laid out plans to repay the loan.

The example you gave as payment for contract work, where payment is given after 2  months, I look at it a little differently. First of all, it would never be right to make a decision based on short-term opportunities within those 2 or more months. If you want to accumulate Bitcoin with a long-term mindset, you have to invest in Bitcoin depending on cashflow, not on what the price of Bitcoin has been.

I assume he has the ability to repay the loan, but it will be after 2 months. In that case, he will wait for these two months and start investing after two months. Because the situation may change after taking a loan from a friend. Especially, the client may not pay, unexpected expenses may come, and even the relationship with the friend may deteriorate. So in such a situation, an investor should wait for some time and adjust his position and then start investing. There is no need to take any unnecessary risks.

[Different patterns]

Owing debts doesn't stop Bitcoin investment as long as you have discretionary income left and your expenses are taken care of.
The only time you don't get to invest is when you don't have discretionary income left after taking care of your expenses or your income is barely enough to settle your necessary expenses. But if otherwise then there's no reason to delay your investment just because you're owing debts.

That is very true, owing debt doesn’t stop an investor from investing in Bitcoin, considering that you have a discretionary income, in as much as you have a discretionary income leftover money after paying for your bills and expenses then you have serviced your loans or whatever money that you’re owing, and you have a discretionary income then you can invest and buy bitcoin as soon as possible.

But if after paying for your expenses and bills and you don’t have a leftover money discretionary income then I after servicing your loans then it would be impossible to investing in bitcoin.

The best thing to do is take care of your expenses and bills then after that you can service your loans, and keep buying bitcoin, when you are done with paying for your loans then you can be buying bitcoin on a more consistent and regular basis.

I think it's not okay for one to get serious with accumulation of Bitcoin while your debt is due and reading or interest increasing, or ignoring your basic necessities and aggressively accumulating Bitcoin. Such acts will only return you to square zero when the pressure mounts up. That's even why it is advisable to just invest within your means and avoid borrowing to invest. Some investors have borrowed to invest just because some persons have gone ahead of them, or they want to be aggressively involved in the market while neglecting there basic needs. So its best to buy within your means, and not out your investment at risk buy borrowing unnecessarily or buying aggressively when you don't have extra funds to do it

Well you should still understand that at some point you find yourself in a difficult situation and you end up not doing enough for yourself, and you have no choice, but to take a loan, you see why I said you can take a loan and still be accumulating bitcoin is that, considering you have an income that is good enough to adjust with paying up your loans, and still be taking care of your financial expenses then you can actually consider taking out some loans and still you have availability of discretionary income then you can accumulate bitcoin, but considering that you’re struggling to pay your loans and you struggle with your expenses and how is that possible to have a discretionary income to buy bitcoin, I think at that point everything becomes absolutely difficult.

Your point is well understood. And I can clearly say taking a loan is not a bad decision to take, because sometimes life can put people in tight situations financially.
On other hand, either way someone should continue to accumulate bitcoin while servicing of a loan varies entirely on the people financial income and stability strength, If someone has a steady income which is enough to  settle the debt, handle daily bills and maintain an emergency money, and have some extra money left, then use a small amount of that extra cash to gather bitcoin can still make sense, in that aspect, the person is not putting thierselves under pressure that is not necessary.
But the real issue starts when the person is already battling with settlements, basic expenses and funds.
At that time, focusing on bitcoin collection over stability of financial can cause more stress and deeper debt.
Bitcoin investment should come from extra funds, not from money that you need for loan settlement or for survival.
Financial freedom should come first always before you begin to think about long-term investment like bitcoin

[Alonso_]

Yes, your first task is to ensure you have a steady and stable income.

I understand your point clearly but I guess you saying it like this looks more like you are trying to convince beginners to ensure that they have stable income before they start buying Bitcoin.
However, based on my little knowledge, I believe that all you need is your discretionary income, having multiple income only helps you to increase the amount you are DCA'ing with or buy Bitcoin aggressively if you have spare an unexpected money or excessive funds which you won't be needing till the next 3 - 4 years time.
To be honest, everything can not just be perfect. Well my point is that if you wait till you get everything sorted out, you might end up waiting forever without buying any Bitcoin because most times things doesn't work the way we expect them to be. So what's why it's important to start immediately you have spare money to buy Bitcoin.
Actually it is very important to learn and develop the mindset of investment early so that you will achieve your targets earlier as well. Although no time is late but the perfect time to start investing into Bitcoin is when you have the spare money to buy it (no matter how little it is).
Honestly, with the bold part of your comment I think it can discourage beginners with low source of income to start buying Bitcoin, as you already stated that they should ensure that they have stable income.

From your statement I don’t think you really understand what nara1892 is talking about, literally you’re not investing in Bitcoin with your stable income, but first of all you have to be consistent with investing in Bitcoin, don’t you think that you need a stable income, we all know that we are investing in Bitcoin with a discretionary income, and you get your discretionary income from your source of income, consistency in bitcoin accumulation is very important, assuming that you don’t have a stable income how do you remain consistent, from my knowledge and experience of investing in Bitcoin so far, I have been able to remain consistent with a stable income and having a discretionary income, there was a point when I didn’t have a stable income and I was struggling to have a discretionary income so I couldn’t accumulate bitcoin for quite a number of months, so I believe that is also very important in the journey of bitcoin accumulation.

[Umulala-alala]

I already responded to these ideas of loans, and I said that loans are more advance techniques, so one of the main ways of getting started investing in bitcoin tends to involve investing within your discretionary funds and to build up your back up funds and it does not involve loans.. .especially in the beginning.

Loans can be used to buy bitcoin and/or to shore up cashflow matters, even though there are needs to calculate the various costs of the loans and to have an ability (or even various abilities) to pay them back even if the bitcoin prices go down after using the loan money to buy bitcoin (and/or to shore up cashflows).

So there is a need to have source money from other places besides bitcoin proceeds, otherwise taking a loan would be gambling rather than investing, and I don't recommend gambling in regards to bitcoin.

By the way, if you have gambler in your name, you might not even know what investing is, so hopefully you are chiming into this thread to talk about investing rather than trading and/or gambling.

Okay, noted. As a beginner I need to get a steady source of income where I Can get discretionary income from so I won’t tend to make lot of wrong decisions during the investment.

I do get a lot of wrong impression about my name but I’m here to invest rather to think of gambling or trading. I’m here to invest and make plans for my future. Thanks for the clarity again.

You can still start buying bitcoin if your income is not steady at first provided you were able to find a discretionary income but for you to maintain a regular purchase of bitcoin or to increase your discretionary income you will need a steady cash flow but there are people who didn't wait to get that steady income after they could figure out there discretionary and later start working on there financial cash flow so if you can figure out your discretionary income you can gradually be buying with the dca strategy and hold for long.

[Abbatty]

I can see both of you are making Valid points, both has it advantages and also disadvantages, well I guess we will wait for JJG to clarify which is best. I’m a newbie who is looking into investment. Though no capital yet but I could get a loan, so I don’t want to make mistake in investing. Please any other user with a more valid points could also tag me. Thank you.

With your statement, it means you do not have any repayment plan since ordinary you do not have capital and may not know how to figure out your discreationary from whatever source you have available so you think getting a loan is the best way to start Bitcoin I mean for someone in your financial status, don't even attempt that, what you have to do is to start from somewhere, it is very important for you to understand that this idea will not work for you, as newbie thats ready to start acumulating Bitcoin especially someone that fall within what you just narrated, accessing a loan is not for you, hope you understand that Bitcoin is a long-term investment as such you are not supposed to withdraw any dime from your portfolio for any purpose since you are buying to hodl for a long-term, so how do you intend to pay back your loan if let's say the loan repayment plan is monthly which might be spread across 2years or more and with your statement otbks obvious that you do not have money, I'm not saying you won't have money on the line but we can work with might when it comes to loan, so you should desist from such idea because it is not a nice one for you.

You are totally right, it not asif getting loan to invest in bitcoin is a bad thing but then for a newbie who is actually not into anything it won’t  work for you. Loans I are suppose to come in as either emergency funds or reserve funds. it comes in as emergency funds in the sense that when you are in an emergency situation and the maybe your emergency won’t be enough you can get loan to add to it. Same can also go for reserve funds.

There have been case study about people getting loans to invest, most end in failing because they go about it the wrong way.

Just like my colleagues have said, get something doing so you can have discretionary income at your disposal.

[Creeper0]

You are totally right, it not asif getting loan to invest in bitcoin is a bad thing but then for a newbie who is actually not into anything it won’t  work for you. Loans I are suppose to come in as either emergency funds or reserve funds. it comes in as emergency funds in the sense that when you are in an emergency situation and the maybe your emergency won’t be enough you can get loan to add to it. Same can also go for reserve funds.

There have been case study about people getting loans to invest, most end in failing because they go about it the wrong way.

Just like my colleagues have said, get something doing so you can have discretionary income at your disposal.

There is nothing wrong with investing with debt if you already have sufficient resources and a plan to repay the debt. However, I do not always like investing with debt, in normal times we should invest within our means, but when the market gives us a good opportunity to buy at a low price, if we do not have the immediate funds to be aggressive in investing, then you can take a loan to invest, but in this case you have to be careful that you have the ability to repay the loan very soon.

If you are planning to repay the loan by taking profit from the investment, then you are gambling with the investment, you are taking a step that may be enough to destroy you. Debt is good as long as you have the ability and mindset to repay the loan, otherwise it is like poison.