JJG’s Outline of Bitcoin Investment Ideas

[Jostern]

It's actually the smart way to go about it, don't sideline one because of the other when you have the discretionary income to build the two together, sometimes people are more into being aggressive in their investment to the point where they want to put all of their discretionary income into their investment without thinking about setting up their backup fund as well, they simply want to accumulate bitcoin as much as postad quickly as possible, if you have the discretionary income then you would be better off just doing the two side by side.

Going aggressively over our bitcoin accumulation is always advisable  when we have already make availability of our back up funds 3 times our income. Then with such availability of back up funds then we can wish to go aggressively but when no availability of back up funds then going aggressively would only open us to higher risk.

Investment can be start with just discretionary income alone but at the long run the back up funds should be build for emergency in future that will push us into selling our holdings. Having availability of back up in check during the journey helps to guide our portfolio from risk and emergencies that will lead to sell off.

When there is no availability of backup funds it is no longer investment but gambling at that time and that is being over aggressive at least a little bit of a backup funds should be there  while building it up alongside with your investment, this is what I considered to be the best practice because ignorance to this will result to selling your Bitcoin to sort out emergencies when it happens, being aggressive with your investment is encouraged as it should be done within the means of your discretionary income and not overdoing it.

You’re absolutely correct, not having a backup funds is more like gambling, because as a long time investor it’s more important to to have a backup funds, else you will be gambling with your bitcoin investment, having a backup funds doesn’t mean that you will have to start building a backup fund before you start investing in bitcoin, like it’s been said previously, as soon as you have a discretionary income get started with investing in bitcoin, then you can start building your backup funds afterwards, it’s very important to have a backup fund as a long term investor, talking about being aggressive, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive in a good way, and being cautious as well and also knowing your limits of aggressiveness.

[adultcrypto]

Investment shouldn't just start with discretionary income, it should be done only with your discretionary income.
When a person wants to be aggressive in bitcoin it's actually up to them to do so, especially when their backup funds are already in place, with nothing else major dragging on their discretionary income they can absolutely go aggressive on their investment but this is because they've already set up their backup funds already

Why the confusion in your comment that I highlighted above? Your entire response is showing that you might be mixing some things up regarding the discretionary income hence it is important you understand it properly to avoid making a mistake. Discretionary income is what you have left after you have removed money for your basic needs. It is from the discretionary income that investment should be made, reserve funds and emergency funds set up and every other protective funds set aside. An investor being aggressive simply means allocating more money into purchasing bitcoin than he would have, and this is done through avoiding many unnecessary spendings so that the bitcoin accumulation will take priority.

[Brizi5000]

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I think your explanation is very accurate and realistic, as starting with a small amount of investment is far more profitable than waiting to accumulate large capital. You're on the right track. Starting to invest with a small amount also trains you to manage expenses and prioritize investments over other less urgent needs. This strategy is not just about saving money from your income, but also about building financial discipline because you are consistently investing. This is a habit that is often ignored by those (including your friends) who are waiting to have large amounts of money.
Those who wait for large capital are often trapped in the illusion of "the right time to start investing is when you already have a lot of money," whereas in practice, consistency and time or duration of investment are the main keys to achieving financial freedom in the future.

I also believe that there is no specific time to start investing except starting now with the capital you have. Therefore, we ourselves will strive to develop an investment plan by considering the initial cash flow when starting and will also deliberately allocate specific funds for future investment from the income we have received so far. Because I've also seen some people who still prefer to wait for large capital, essentially never starting investing under any circumstances. They not only have to prepare the capital, but also have to prepare their interest and mentality for long-term investment, as this isn't just for a day.

So, for those who still prefer to wait for large capital to invest, it's best to start now with the funds you already have, especially now that the Bitcoin price is experiencing a downward correction, making it a good idea to buy now and continue making a more mature plan for the long term. Waiting will only waste time and opportunity by buying Bitcoin at the current price. When the price rises again, it will feel like a large investment will seem trivial, and the benefits will be negligible.

it will be worthy of note that there’s no perfect time to start investing in bitcoin but rather  when we have discretionary income available and this should be figured out after we finished sorting out our basic needs. A discretionary income is the capital needed to invest with in bitcoin and also build up emergency funds and other various back up funds from it. So it doesn’t matter what the price is at the moment, as a long term investor the goal is to focus on figuring out a discretionary income to use and invest in bitcoin at any market price through the DCA strategy. If your income is able to cover your basic needs and then you’re still left with some cash then it’s actually advisable you can start accumulating bitcoin from it and decide how much of the discretionary income you can allocate to buying bitcoin and how much to allocate for saving up emergency fund and  various back up funds to keep the investment going for long term purpose.

[Dump3er]

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I never said that newbies need an emergency fund before starting to invest in bitcoin, yet I did say that beginners need some back up funds so that they do not use non-discretionary funds to invest into bitcoin.

I think it is not that simple for most here to differentiate between back up and emergency funds. I absolutely agree that back up funds should be in place, ideally for anyone at any age in any situation. As for emergency funds, it depends on what an individual's emergency potential looks like. If someone needs a car to get to work, has three kids, pays a mortgage for a house, is the sole earner in the family, doesn't have insurances in place for everything, an emergency fund sounds like a must have to me. The exposure to emergencies is quite big under those circumstances.

If you are single, got a decent job, an injury/disability insurance to cover risk in case of an accident and subsequent loss of income, do the laundry at the laundromat around the corner, the exposure to emergencies is very different and allows for higher risks to be taken. I think there is a category of people that doesn't necessarily need excess cash, like back up cash, but a back up plan, which some may say boils down to the same. I have been in the situation and knew what I could do just in case I had to bridge a financial gap.

I think most people should be able to get started with a reasonable income-based DCA approach. If there is really no discretionary income whatsoever, every month ends with a net minus, I think some other fundamentals should be changed first urgently to improve life quality in general, apart from bitcoin investments. I know it's tough for some people and circumstances can be horribly stressful, but from time to time it would be better to face that truth first because otherwise there is definitely no financial leeway to survive any bear phase in the bitcoin market ever. IIRC, JayJuanGee has often said that your calculation should put you in a place that allows you to get along with either your holdings or DCAing for at least a four year period. That sounds about right to me. You can't predict the next war or the next crazy president, so you better be prepared to be able to hold on for four years or longer.

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Guys should not be starting investing into bitcoin with absolutely zero back up funds and/or emergency funds.  If you are a beginner and you invest 100% of your discretionary funds into bitcoin, and you otherwise have no back up funds (or emergency funds), then how is that going to work if you have any basic expense prior to your next paycheck?  And, what if your next pay check does not come in the amount you expected or it gets delayed?  What you going to do?

This is a good point because depending on where you work on what your health situation is or your exposure to possible injury because of your job, your next paycheck may actually not be safe. That could become a serious issue one has not included in their calculations. I think almost all of us know someone who took their job for granted, up to the point when it was not.

[Creeper0]

You’re absolutely correct, not having a backup funds is more like gambling, because as a long time investor it’s more important to to have a backup funds, else you will be gambling with your bitcoin investment, having a backup funds doesn’t mean that you will have to start building a backup fund before you start investing in bitcoin, like it’s been said previously, as soon as you have a discretionary income get started with investing in bitcoin, then you can start building your backup funds afterwards, it’s very important to have a backup fund as a long term investor, talking about being aggressive, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive in a good way, and being cautious as well and also knowing your limits of aggressiveness.

You are right, the backup fund is one of the security measures provided by the investment fund. If this security measure is weak, the investment fund will definitely be at risk. However, it is not necessary to prepare the backup fund before investing or delay the investment to prepare the backup fund, rather, you can allocate some of your discretionary money for investment and some for the backup fund. Just as investment is important, backup funds are also important to protect the investment. To be successful in investment, increasing investment is important to achieve goals, and even more important is to maintain investment.

To be aggressive, it is important to be aware of our capabilities. It is important to have knowledge about how much we are able to be aggressive and how much aggressive we will be able to manage financial management normally after being aggressive in investment. There is nothing wrong with being aggressive in investment, but it is important to know about the capabilities. If you are more aggressive in investment than you are able, that effect can be on the investment.

[ChocolateBitcoinK]

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I never said that newbies need an emergency fund before starting to invest in bitcoin, yet I did say that beginners need some back up funds so that they do not use non-discretionary funds to invest into bitcoin.

Some individuals seems to be stressing on this matter and it seems like they don’t understand anything happening on this thread, as soon as you have a discretionary income then I think it’s just better that you get started with investing in bitcoin immediately, the fact that you’re starting immediately doesn’t mean that you don’t wouldn’t start up a backup funds, because backup funds are very important for a long term investors.

It goes without expressing that backup funds are a lifeline of every investor's bitcoin investment and must be put in position to avoid not only the draining of non-discretionary funds but as well as discretionary funds which should have been used in adding up your bitcoin accumulation but has to be used in covering other matters which backup funds should have been able to take care with. A pure distortion of a consistent massive bitcoin accumulation dew to a no backup funds.

Not only do we have to invest, but we also have to think about protecting this investment in the long term. There are many who often underestimate the importance of an emergency fund or backup fund, but they forget that this is the most important thing to keep their investment safe. When an unexpected expense, lost job, medical expenses or any other emergency arises, if we have an emergency fund, then the investor does not have to break his long-term Bitcoin plan. This is the main thing, that is, we have to think about it first so that our investment remains intact even in any unexpected situation.

[Loyang]

Investment shouldn't just start with discretionary income, it should be done only with your discretionary income.
When a person wants to be aggressive in bitcoin it's actually up to them to do so, especially when their backup funds are already in place, with nothing else major dragging on their discretionary income they can absolutely go aggressive on their investment but this is because they've already set up their backup funds already

Your comment is a bit vague. Of course we need to start investing with discretionary income and we need to build an emergency fund, and whatever measures we need to take or fund to protect our holdings should be built from discretionary funds.

How aggressive we are depends entirely on our financial situation. Because if our financial situation is such that we can invest aggressively, then we can definitely invest aggressively. There are many people who invest without knowing the limits of their aggressiveness, and after some time they need that amount of money and they are forced to sell their holdings. So we should determine the level of aggressiveness depending on our financial situation.

[Abbatty]

You’re absolutely correct, not having a backup funds is more like gambling, because as a long time investor it’s more important to to have a backup funds, else you will be gambling with your bitcoin investment, having a backup funds doesn’t mean that you will have to start building a backup fund before you start investing in bitcoin, like it’s been said previously, as soon as you have a discretionary income get started with investing in bitcoin, then you can start building your backup funds afterwards, it’s very important to have a backup fund as a long term investor, talking about being aggressive, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive in a good way, and being cautious as well and also knowing your limits of aggressiveness.

You are right, the backup fund is one of the security measures provided by the investment fund. If this security measure is weak, the investment fund will definitely be at risk. However, it is not necessary to prepare the backup fund before investing or delay the investment to prepare the backup fund, rather, you can allocate some of your discretionary money for investment and some for the backup fund. Just as investment is important, backup funds are also important to protect the investment. To be successful in investment, increasing investment is important to achieve goals, and even more important is to maintain investment.

To be aggressive, it is important to be aware of our capabilities. It is important to have knowledge about how much we are able to be aggressive and how much aggressive we will be able to manage financial management normally after being aggressive in investment. There is nothing wrong with being aggressive in investment, but it is important to know about the capabilities. If you are more aggressive in investment than you are able, that effect can be on the investment.

I don’t really agree on this, sometimes we focus so much on back up fund and actually forget to invest. Everyone who is intrested in bitcoin top priority should be to invest, we should focus on investment so far we have a discretionary income. Backup fund is something we can build along the journey. Sometimes a lot of people might even feel to delay their investment because of not having back up fund yet.

As a newbie or not backup fund is important but the top priority should be to invest, to start your investment journey as soon as possible.

[Cgrexp]

It's actually the smart way to go about it, don't sideline one because of the other when you have the discretionary income to build the two together, sometimes people are more into being aggressive in their investment to the point where they want to put all of their discretionary income into their investment without thinking about setting up their backup fund as well, they simply want to accumulate bitcoin as much as postad quickly as possible, if you have the discretionary income then you would be better off just doing the two side by side.

Going aggressively over our bitcoin accumulation is always advisable  when we have already make availability of our back up funds 3 times our income. Then with such availability of back up funds then we can wish to go aggressively but when no availability of back up funds then going aggressively would only open us to higher risk.

Investment can be start with just discretionary income alone but at the long run the back up funds should be build for emergency in future that will push us into selling our holdings. Having availability of back up in check during the journey helps to guide our portfolio from risk and emergencies that will lead to sell off.

When there is no availability of backup funds it is no longer investment but gambling at that time and that is being over aggressive at least a little bit of a backup funds should be there  while building it up alongside with your investment, this is what I considered to be the best practice because ignorance to this will result to selling your Bitcoin to sort out emergencies when it happens, being aggressive with your investment is encouraged as it should be done within the means of your discretionary income and not overdoing it.

You’re absolutely correct, not having a backup funds is more like gambling, because as a long time investor it’s more important to to have a backup funds, else you will be gambling with your bitcoin investment, having a backup funds doesn’t mean that you will have to start building a backup fund before you start investing in bitcoin, like it’s been said previously, as soon as you have a discretionary income get started with investing in bitcoin, then you can start building your backup funds afterwards, it’s very important to have a backup fund as a long term investor, talking about being aggressive, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive in a good way, and being cautious as well and also knowing your limits of aggressiveness.

Personally, if they do not have enough income for 4-10 years or more and cannot afford to invest money that they can afford to lose, then they should not invest in Bitcoin. Similarly, if they use money that they know they will need for their expenses, then they are not investing but trading or gambling. Because they need money for their expenses and have no real ability to predict the direction of the Bitcoin price in the short term. Even the direction of the Bitcoin price in the long term is not known in advance. Which is another reason to invest with extra money. If the investment goes against you, you have the ability to lose that money.
Investors have a lot of potential to increase their income and even get promoted. But even then, sometimes they have to work on their skills. Gain experience and network. So that they can get a higher-paying job. However, investors should not have illusions about what is not in front of them. Rather, find the ability to invest in Bitcoin within the reality of your own income.

[Furious 7]

It is good to have a reserve fund but don't focus too much on it because what we want to do is invest and just because of meeting the reserve fund standards then you throw away the opportunity to buy bitcoin as soon as possible for me it's wrong.

If we are seriously considering both getting started in bitcoin and then figuring out and following some kind of an ongoing bitcoin buying situation, then we are likely considering how to balance what cash (and other resources) we are starting out with, what income and expenses that we have and what might be a meaningful pace to build up our bitcoin (and our back ups) so that we can make some progress in building our wealth and potentially bringing better options to ourselves in the future, even though it may well take some efforts to put those systems in place and to follow them... even if it might take 4-10 years or longer.

Balancing cash is more understandable than trying to secure a reserve fund first. Not that in this case the reserve fund is bad because obviously when we invest, the reserve fund must remain but when the initial intention is to invest but from the beginning the focus is only on strengthening the reserve fund, it becomes lame because the method that wants to be done is not in line with the treatment we do.
 

We already have money that we are ready to buy bitcoin because our intention is to invest but we are busy with collecting reserve funds even for security for the next 3 months? That's not the way I feel about investing.

It seems guys focusing on accumulating cash are distracted, especially since cash does not tend to hold its value too well and cash is pretty much guaranteed to lose around 7% of its purchasing power each year (depending on where we are at and depending on which shitty currency we might be holding).  Of course, we likely have to hold onto some shitty currency since many times our bills are denominated in shitty currencies..so we have to ongoingly hold onto some of the shitty currencies and we may well also be earning our income in such shitty currencies that are not really worthy of holding for extended periods of time nor in large quantities, since the large the quantity of the shitty currencies that are held, then the greater the loss in actual value of that currency, which makes it quite difficult to actually build up the shitty currencies to be more valuable in actual future purchasing power, whether referring to goods and/or services.  

But, yeah, we have to hold onto some of the shitty currencies, and guys who struggle to earn enough of that shitty currency (in order to have extra of it) have difficulties converting at least some of their shitty currencies into better currencies (such as bitcoin) and/or other assets that hold their value better than the shitty currencies, not that it is even as practical for many people to be able to buy various assets that are better than shitty currencies but not as good as bitcoin... bitcoin is the superior of currencies to be trying to accumulate and hold, even for guys who are poor, so long as they are capable of generating enough income to be able to ongoingly accumulate it and hold it.

True, the focus is too far off here because if you look at what you said indirectly this will also create another risk where the reserve funds that are collected should become even greater because the longer the value of the fiat stored is shrinking which makes the purchase even longer to delay and that is a basic mistake even though the opportunity to buy bitcoin is already there but they fail to carry out their plans just because they focus on storing cash first.

We don't have to forget about currencies because institutionally they are more recognized for now but that doesn't mean we should accumulate them first because as you alluded to the value will shrink over time so it would be better to focus on what we think will secure a hedge rather than force being in a “shitty” currency whose value continues to shrink for the long term.

[BluebloodCXVI]

You’re absolutely correct, not having a backup funds is more like gambling, because as a long time investor it’s more important to to have a backup funds, else you will be gambling with your bitcoin investment, having a backup funds doesn’t mean that you will have to start building a backup fund before you start investing in bitcoin, like it’s been said previously, as soon as you have a discretionary income get started with investing in bitcoin, then you can start building your backup funds afterwards, it’s very important to have a backup fund as a long term investor, talking about being aggressive, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive in a good way, and being cautious as well and also knowing your limits of aggressiveness.

Perhaps some people like to focus on getting into the bitcoin market but they don’t focus on what can help them to stay in the market. It is very much easier to hold on to your investment during bad days when you are sure that an unexpected emergency will pop up and make you tamper with your stash. Nothing can humble an aggressive investor faster than a surprise expense showing up like it owns the place when the investor has not prepared backup funds down.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

You don’t need a large amount of money to invest in other words, you can start and make investments even with a small amount of money. Basically, once you’ve decided to invest, do it as soon as possible there’s no need to wait for a large sum of money. It’s better to adjust your investments to your own financial capacity, no matter how small the amount. I was once laughed at by a friend for starting with a small investment, but because I did it consistently, in the end my friend fell behind because they waited for a large sum of money to invest.

Between about late 2014 and mid-2017, I had a pretty close friend who laughed at me a lot during that time... yet that friend also participated in bitcoin during that time while laughing at me about my technique that involved mostly ongoing buying and holding.. even though I also started to sell during that time too, in the form of sustainable price-based withdrawal, which was right around (and progressively) less than 10% of my holdings for every time the BTC price doubled (yet in smaller integers).  

The friend mostly stayed out of bitcoin until about August 2015, and so then the friend started to buy bitcoin and ended up with an average price that was around $230 per bitcoin, and I am pretty sure that he accumulated 17 bitcoin at around that time.. Like I mentioned this friend had a trader's mindset rather than a investor's mindset.

It was around September-ish of 2015 that I told the friend about a situation of another friend who had accidentally sold all of his bitcoin on Circle (a then exchange) that had allowed the conversion of the whole bitcoin holdings into dollars, and the friend had converted all of the bitcoin to dollars at around $225-ish, and I think that the bitcoin stash size was around 20 bitcoin.. and after some back and forth discussion with me, the 20 bitcoin friend realized the mistake and was able to convert all of the dollars back to BTC without suffering too many losses, which would have had been difficult at that time to not suffer too many losses since the conversion had been done at such then low prices.

So my friend with the 17 bitcoin got quite eager about the possibility of beging able to convert all of his bitcoin without hardly any fees, so he started to watch the BTC price for a convenient time to convert all of his bitcoin, and in about mid-October the bitcoin price went pretty quickly from about $250 to $500, and the friend ended up selling all of the 17 bitcoin at around $350.. so there were something like $2k in "profits" that the friend used to buy some seemingly frivolous consumer good as a way of rewarding himself.  he felt pretty good about selling all of the 17 bitcoin at $350, yet when the BTC price kept going to $500, he kept thinking that he could have had done much better to have had waited until somewhere closer to $500, and so the friend told me that he was going to buy back all of the BTC when the BTC price went back down to $300, and the price did end up shortly going down to $300, but my friend was not able to execute the buy because he was busy with work at the time that the BTC price went down to those levels, and by the time the friend noticed, the BTC prices were back into the $340-ish areas..or at least there was various waiting and hoping that the BTC price would go back below $300, which it did not end up doing. .and by the time the BTC price was in the $340s or higher, there was a realization that the BTC price was probably not going to go back down to $300.. and I am pretty sure that the friend ended up buying back around 4-5 bitcoin in the $400 to $430 prices, since the BTC price was in the $400 to $430 territories for quite a lot of time between December 2015 and May 2016, and I am pretty sure that the friend bought back the 4-5 BTC somewhere in the middle of that time, yet continued to complain that he used to have 17 BTC and that he could have had 17 BTC, but instead, he only had 4-5 BTC.
 
In regards to my own situation that the friend had considered laughable was that in late 2014 when BTC prices were in the upper $300s, I had largely come to a conclusion that I had gotten enough bitcoin, since I had pretty much allocated right around 10% of my then quasi-liquid investment portfolio into bitcoin, yet my average cost per BTC was in the ballpark of close to $600 per coin.  Nonetheless, I felt that I had put enough value into bitcoin, yet since the BTC price stayed so far down from that point until late 2015 - and surely had some dips below $200 yet BTC spent so much time at or below $250 per coin, and so I could not resist but to continue to accumulate bitcoin, even though my cashflow situation was not very good between about late January 2015 until around mid-2015, yet every time I would get some free cash, like an extra $20 or some other relatively small extra amount, I would buy bitcoin with half of the amount, and so there were several times that I had made relatively small purchases in that period between January and July 2015 and my 17 bitcoin friend continued to laugh about how much time I was wasting in my ongoing strategizing of my bitcoin buys with such ongoing low amounts of money.  

By the time July/August 2015 came, I was getting worn down by my then having had invested right around 13.5% of my quasi-liquid investment portfolio into bitcoin (and my ways of trying to calculate my estimations of liquidity from various assets I then held), so I largely was feeling that I had overaccumulated bitcoin by right around 3.5% since my earlier rationalization of my target was that I was going to hold and maintain my bitcoin at 10% of my quasi-liquid investment portfolio, so around that July/August 2015 time, I had considered that I had gone beyond my bitcoin accumulation targets.. and so it seems to me that I needed to try to work out some plans about how to deal with my perceived overaccumulation status (and surely my ideas about overaccumulation status have changed over the years and the formulas that I use to figure out overaccumulation status have also changed over the years too).

In around August and September 2015, I had put together various Excel spreadsheets to try to figure out how to deal with my then perception of my overaccumulation status, and I had placed my bitcoin into about 4 different buckets (tranches) depending upon the time line that I had accumulated them, and so they had differing cost bases, yet the buckets overlapped in their accumulation time lines and they had differing average costs in each bucket.  Nonetheless, I used those buckets to figure out how much I was authorized to sell on the way up (using the idea of a maximum of 10% for each doubling of the price for each bucket, yet the BTC would have to be "in profits" in order to authorize any sales).  So, since some of the buckets were smaller than others, and some of the buckets were not authorized to take any action until the BTC price got above certain price thresholds, I had created some buckets that were authorized for sale as long at the BTC price were to stay above $250, so I recall sometimes having some sales and buy backs in those ranges of $250 to $300 that were based on relatively small BTC price moves of $5 to $10 or so, and so then if there was a sale  and then a buy back, then maybe my holdings would make $0.20 to $2 depending on the situation, and my 17 BTC friend would laugh and laugh at me in regards to what he perceived to be the pettiness of what I was doing, and my assertion that I was largely practicing with my BTC and with only certain "authorized" portions of certain buckets of bitcoin that I had authorized for being able to sell on the way up and to buy back if the BTC price were to fall a certain amount, yet I had never felt that I was selling any bitcoin with an expectation of being able to buy back cheaper.  As far as I was concerned at that time in 2015 and even at times after 2015 until now, is that my systems of selling bitcoin and how much I authorize myself to sell have never been motivated by desires to buy bitcoin back cheaper but instead dealing with how much bitcoin that I held and authorizing certain amounts of bitcoin to be sold within what I had characterized as my overaccumulated amounts.

Accordingly, I have never proclaimed to be motivated by trading, or desires to buy back cheaper, yet I considered the then price-based sustainable withdrawal systems that I had theorized and put into practice since 2015 and into the present to have had been kinds of ongoing insurance mechanisms to deal with my perception of having had overly accumulated bitcoin since late 2014 and beyond my initial acceptance of what I considered to be a reasonableness of a 10% bitcoin allocation that I had concluded to be the tentative situation in late 2014 and I had continued to think that 10% would have had been acceptable within the framework of my total financial situation and my then ideas of putting value into bitcoin as compared with other places that I could choose to put time, energy and value.  

Again as I mentioned, my ideas of bitcoin accumulation and/or overaccumulation have changed somewhat since then, and it seems that between about 2014 and even up until about early 2020, I continued to consider 1% to 10% bitcoin allocations to be reasonable, and for myself (and maybe just ideas of normal and reasonable allocations to bitcoin), until early 2020, I had continued to consider 10% to be on the high range of reasonable accumulation.  After March 2020, I started to consider 5% to 25% to be reasonable levels of bitcoin accumulation (allocation) in light of total quasi-liquid investment portfolios and/or even in consideration of how much of a guy's income that he might reasonably choose to put into bitcoin (presuming that the discretionary portion of his income is enough to cover such 5% to 25% allocation into bitcoin from his gross income (his income prior to subtracting expenses).

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You don’t need a large amount of money to invest in other words, you can start and make investments even with a small amount of money. Basically, once you’ve decided to invest, do it as soon as possible there’s no need to wait for a large sum of money. It’s better to adjust your investments to your own financial capacity, no matter how small the amount. I was once laughed at by a friend for starting with a small investment, but because I did it consistently, in the end my friend fell behind because they waited for a large sum of money to invest.

I think your explanation is very accurate and realistic, as starting with a small amount of investment is far more profitable than waiting to accumulate large capital. You're on the right track. Starting to invest with a small amount also trains you to manage expenses and prioritize investments over other less urgent needs. This strategy is not just about saving money from your income, but also about building financial discipline because you are consistently investing. This is a habit that is often ignored by those (including your friends) who are waiting to have large amounts of money.
Those who wait for large capital are often trapped in the illusion of "the right time to start investing is when you already have a lot of money," whereas in practice, consistency and time or duration of investment are the main keys to achieving financial freedom in the future.

It is likely that normal people are a wee bit delusional about what "investing" means and what "wealth growth" means.

So frequently, when it comes to wealth building, there is going to be ongoing and persistent building in various small ways rather than jackpots, and sure, there are examples of jackpots getting hit by folks who become rich as fuck, yet the underlying story tends to revolve around ongoing and persistent stacking of wealth and perhaps even signs that do not really clearly establish that progress is unambiguously happening... so then perhaps there might be various BIG jumps in wealth along the way, and sometimes it might take years and years and years of uncertainty before the actual clear progress can be felt in meaningful and material ways.

So frequently normies will get frustrated in their perception of such slow progress and even question whether progress is being made, which may well even contribute towards their stopping with their stacking of value towards bitcoin and/or even their choice to prematurely sell too much bitcoin too soon, which largely ends up resulting in their inabilities to get back to their previously stacked bitcoin quantities.

You don’t need a large amount of money to invest in other words, you can start and make investments even with a small amount of money. Basically, once you’ve decided to invest, do it as soon as possible there’s no need to wait for a large sum of money. It’s better to adjust your investments to your own financial capacity, no matter how small the amount. I was once laughed at by a friend for starting with a small investment, but because I did it consistently, in the end my friend fell behind because they waited for a large sum of money to invest.

Your answer is correct. What's essential in investing is having the intention to invest so the amount isn't the main priority. For example someone might have a large amount of money but have no intention of investing at all. This indicates that it's difficult for us to start an approach to refer to someone who can invest. Therefore what's really needed in investing is the intention to start.

What is important is the actual starting rather than merely the intention to start.

Sure, it is true that thought likely precedes action, yet the action portion is what remains important in order to both reinforce the thought, but to also give significant and material meaning to the thought.

The problem of the amount can be done later and this does not mean that money is not necessary but more towards the intention and mentality that is most prioritized by someone to start investing in Bitcoin so that if you already have the intention of course with a small amount what is important is understanding how to maintain the investment that is done because the knowledge about how to invest is already owned so that if one day when you have a lot of capital or money it will certainly not be difficult anymore in investing especially by making long-term investments it will be more practical to do by someone who actually has experience and knowledge in the end you only need to control what you do on the investment to protect against the risks in investing in Bitcoin.

You seem to still be problematically emphasizing knowledge, understanding and intention rather than the need to couple such thoughts/feelings with actual action.

I never said that newbies need an emergency fund before starting to invest in bitcoin, yet I did say that beginners need some back up funds so that they do not use non-discretionary funds to invest into bitcoin.

Some individuals seems to be stressing on this matter and it seems like they don’t understand anything happening on this thread, as soon as you have a discretionary income then I think it’s just better that you get started with investing in bitcoin immediately, the fact that you’re starting immediately doesn’t mean that you don’t wouldn’t start up a backup funds, because backup funds are very important for a long term investors.

Newbies doesn’t need an emergency backup funds before they can start investing in bitcoin, this individuals doesn’t read through properly before they start misquoting someone.

Surely, there can be quibbling about how much emergency funds (or back up funds) are exactly needed in order to get started, and my main emphasis is that it cannot be zero, yet I am not really proclaiming to know exactly how large such back up funds need to be, except maybe I am saying that at minimum it needs to be the same size that is put into bitcoin.. just to have some kind of a starting out cash cushion.  There could be guys who reasonably proclaim that it is o.k. to give more emphasis to the back up funds or less emphasis to the back up funds, yet ultimately those are determinations that are completely up to the individual to figure out, and if he ends up getting the amounts (or the emphasis) wrong, then he may well end up suffering the consequences for his poor judgement..and at the same time, sometimes newbie bitcoiners could end up doing dumb and risky things, yet if the market does not turn against them, then maybe they do not end up suffering any negative consequences for their poor judgement and their carrying out of excessively risky actions.

In this thread, I have frequently asserted my ideas and even proclaimed what I believe to be better and best practices, yet in the end, each guy has to figure out for himself the extent to which he might agree with my assertions of better and/or best practices and/or even tailor his own practices to his judgement of what he believes to be applicable to his situation and circumstances.  Frequently, there are a range of possible solutions, even if my own asserted preference might be on one end of the range, and even with my own emphasis at any given time and/or any given decision, I might not end up getting the balance right.

Oh, and we frequently refer to relative scales of whimpy versus aggressive, and surely if there might well be a considerably wide-range of reasonableness within the options that are available, it is totally up to each person if they choose to be whimpy or aggressive or maybe choosing some place that they consider to be more in the middle of the extremes of the discretionary range of possible reasonable options that are available at any point in time.

One thing I'll also like to clear is the purpose of backup up funds, provided that we have something to fall back to doesn't mean we can go around spending it on wants and tag that as emergency. Emergencies should be urgent unplanned needs not something that happens all the time like paying bills, and that is why we should be strict with our saving our backup funds, if possible do it with same percentage as your bitcoin investment.

That’s why it is encouraged that investors should differentiate their backup funds from the beginning. If you are saving for emergency purposes, tag that account as emergency funds account, and the other one reserves account. So that in the future when there is need to take out money, you will know the account that such needs fall under. Like the paying of bills you referenced, that should come under backup funds, if it happens that tomorrow the investor is having financial inflow difficulties, and there is need to pay bills, he can pay from the reserved account. Because I don’t see how possible it is for an investor to have money in backup funds account, and there is need to pay bills and you don’t expect him to take from the backup funds account.

So to avoid this from happening, the investor should save for emergencies separately from reserved funds. When you say backup funds, you are generalizing all the money kept aside by the investor. It consists of emergency funds, reserved funds, and others. So you can’t fault an investor entirely when he dips hand into his backup funds to pay  bills, because the money was kept aside for all purposes when not differentiated from the beginning.

It might be helpful to clarify the matter of spending from back up funds, whether the back up funds are labelled as reserve funds or emergency funds.  Guys have to figure out for themselves how they set such spending limitations, yet if a guy is in the practice of ongoingly building his bitcoin investment and also building his back up funds, there may well end up being times in the process that he believes that he had already accounted for all of his basic expenses, and maybe he carried out a certain amount of investing into bitcoin and even discretionary spending as a result of his calculations related to how much discretionary funds he has available until the next paycheck comes, yet if the guy ends up making an error and some kinds of new expenses happen or even become known, then he may well have to determine if the new expenses have to be paid immediately (which would indicate that they may well be basic expenses and needs rather than discretionary expenses and wants)..

Of course, if a guy has a sufficiently large amount of back up funds that includes both emergency funds and reserve funds, then he may not be bothered about whether the newly discovered expense is basic or discretionary, since he has plenty of funds to cover it.  The more difficult questions might come when he starts to deplete his reserve funds and then if he only has emergency funds remaining in his back up funds, then he may well have to determine whether the expenses are wants or needs and/or if the expenses can be deferred until after he receives his next paycheck.  Another thing is that if the next paycheck is delayed or is not as large of a quantity as expected, then the guy may well be forced with further depletion of his various back up funds, so of course, the needs have to be paid first, and the wants might be able to be deferred or delayed, and if the reserve funds are continuing to run out, then the guy might be forced to ONLY cover the needs and to not spend on any of the wants.  So, the spending of emergency funds does not need to be any kind of a dire situation, but instead perhaps situations in which the income has gone down and/or the basic expenses have gone up and the more and more the back up funds are depleted, the more and more the guy may be forced into discerning between needs and wants and ONLY paying the needs until perhaps his income can go back up and/or his basic expenses can go back down.

[Rabata]

You’re absolutely correct, not having a backup funds is more like gambling, because as a long time investor it’s more important to to have a backup funds, else you will be gambling with your bitcoin investment, having a backup funds doesn’t mean that you will have to start building a backup fund before you start investing in bitcoin, like it’s been said previously, as soon as you have a discretionary income get started with investing in bitcoin, then you can start building your backup funds afterwards, it’s very important to have a backup fund as a long term investor, talking about being aggressive, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive in a good way, and being cautious as well and also knowing your limits of aggressiveness.

You are right, the backup fund is one of the security measures provided by the investment fund. If this security measure is weak, the investment fund will definitely be at risk. However, it is not necessary to prepare the backup fund before investing or delay the investment to prepare the backup fund, rather, you can allocate some of your discretionary money for investment and some for the backup fund. Just as investment is important, backup funds are also important to protect the investment. To be successful in investment, increasing investment is important to achieve goals, and even more important is to maintain investment.

To be aggressive, it is important to be aware of our capabilities. It is important to have knowledge about how much we are able to be aggressive and how much aggressive we will be able to manage financial management normally after being aggressive in investment. There is nothing wrong with being aggressive in investment, but it is important to know about the capabilities. If you are more aggressive in investment than you are able, that effect can be on the investment.

I don’t really agree on this, sometimes we focus so much on back up fund and actually forget to invest. Everyone who is intrested in bitcoin top priority should be to invest, we should focus on investment so far we have a discretionary income. Backup fund is something we can build along the journey. Sometimes a lot of people might even feel to delay their investment because of not having back up fund yet.

As a newbie or not backup fund is important but the top priority should be to invest, to start your investment journey as soon as possible.

It is not right to underestimate the backup fund too much. Because if you do not have a backup fund, you may be forced to sell Bitcoin in an emergency. But the problem is that if someone waits to invest in Bitcoin on the pretext of not having a backup fund, then it is not a good decision. Backup funds and Bitcoin savings are not enemies of each other. Therefore, an investor can create a long-term accumulation plan by balancing discretionary income, cashflow, basic expenses and backup fund. It will not be too late to start saving Bitcoin, and it also gives you time to think about creating a backup fund.

[DubemIfedigbo001]

Emergencies should be urgent unplanned needs not something that happens all the time like paying bills, and that is why we should be strict with our saving our backup funds, if possible do it with same percentage as your bitcoin investment.

You're correct, your bills are not emergencies, they're part of your expenses which you should consider before identifying to having discretionary income. Some bills can be graded as future expenses if they don't come regularly and they should be adequately planned for in advance so they don't take the investor unawares, this is why proper planing and cashflow management is needed to effectively estimate your expenses and ensure you're investing solely from your discretionary income.

E.g if you've a bill of $300 to pay every 3 months, then you should be keeping $100 monthly separately to attend to such expenses on the third month without stress, you should add the $100 to your monthly expenses budget which you'll remove from your total income before identifying the discretionary income from which you invest and build backup funds.

Emergencies are purely unforseen circumstances, such that takes us unawares like accidents, hospitalization, war effects e.t.c. Your bills should be planned out adequately and it's both wrong and bad planning to use your backup funds to attend to them.

[Lembo69]

As a newbie or not backup fund is important but the top priority should be to invest, to start your investment journey as soon as possible.

Yes, for those who are new to Bitcoin or are in the very early stages of collecting Bitcoin, there are definitely some advantages in not delaying investing in Bitcoin. So it is wise to start as soon as possible. Although there are chances of various ups and downs in their Bitcoin investment journey in a new situation. However, those who can ignore these issues and start investing as soon as possible, their chances of making a profit in the future may be greater.
Many may think that if we start a little late, then the market will also be seen and if there is a recession, we will be able to start investing in a larger amount. In fact, they are following the wrong path. Because we have to understand the value of time. Time waits for no one. So the sooner we start, the more we can move forward according to our plan.

An investor can invest in the medium or long term. However, the market never guarantees him a sure profit. But one of the reasons for starting quickly is that the sooner we can start, the more BTC it will be possible to accumulate. Therefore, it would be wise to start investing as soon as possible, even if you prioritize the value of time.

There is a saying, "What you want to do tomorrow, do today. And what you want to do today, do now." Therefore, the more time you waste in starting to invest, the further behind you will fall.

[Ryu_Ar1]

Surely, getting started is the real deal, and then setting a target of accumulation which includes a long term investment plan.

Even though we might argue that a back up fund is crucial and a most for every investment, yet, we cannot also forget the fact that we can actually start immediately without already having a back up funds, but by figuring out our discretionary income and starting, and slowly building the much needed back ups for your in investment.
Thus, waiting to get an emergency funds and other back up funds first before starting investments are all delay and may keep such investor away from starting at all.

Getting started is of course the best step but not paying attention to the emergency fund is also a mistake because even though we want to start quickly from your discretionary funds, we must still set aside the discretionary funds into an emergency/reserve fund. If you insist on spending all of your discretionary funds then it is dangerous because the consideration is our life until we get back our next income and that is too much.

I agree when you say investing using discretionary funds but you have to remember there are some parts that we have to separate from the discretionary funds besides investing then we should also try to set aside it for a reserve fund when we just started investing.

[Sally9256]

I don’t really agree on this, sometimes we focus so much on back up fund and actually forget to invest. Everyone who is intrested in bitcoin top priority should be to invest, we should focus on investment so far we have a discretionary income. Backup fund is something we can build along the journey. Sometimes a lot of people might even feel to delay their investment because of not having back up fund yet.

As a newbie or not backup fund is important but the top priority should be to invest, to start your investment journey as soon as possible.

I get your point, nothing is as important as buying Bitcoin not even a back up but having at least a little back up fund before Investing can be useful because we don't know when emergency will arise. When we have discretionary income figured out we have no more reason to delay buying Bitcoin. Yet that doesn't mean having a little back up funds is not important before investing. I think if we must start buying Bitcoin without any back up fund then we will have to build our back up fund along side buying Bitcoin. The main idea is to have a more balanced investment. Buying Bitcoin without any back up makes them vulnerable and building back up funds without any Bitcoin is totally pointless.

I think in as much as a beginner needs to invest when they figure out their discretionary income it's important for them to have some back up fund too that's why it's best if they invest and build their back up funds together when they start investing.

[Grease5000]

Let me ask you this question, do you prefer to have a huge backup funds and a small portfolio because of little discretionary income or do you prefer to have a huge portfolio and little or moderate backup funds? I want to believe this question is very simple and a wise someone will know what to chose over the other. How will an investor have lots of backup funds when you don't have a good portfolio I mean what are you saving the back up funds for?  So I will prefer to have a good discretionary income and good portfolio because that is the ultimate.

For me I see it a bit differently. A strong portfolio is important no doubt but a reasonable backup fund is also important too. The goal is not to choose one over the other, but it is finding a balance.

Personally, I would rather grow my portfolio steadily while also building a backup fund. That way, whenever  an emergency comes up, I won't be forced to sell my investments at the wrong time. Both work together to create long term financial stability.

[JayJuanGee]

Of course, many people want to invest in bitcoin, and rush to invest without building the emergency fund. The emergency funds is very important because, as an investor, you will be sure that you are investing from your discretionary fund, and not from the funds that are meant for other expenses. If new investors buy without having the backup funds, you might be forced to sell when you need money to cover other things.

However, as a long term investor, it requires patience, because bitcoin is a volatile asset and every long term investor is ready for any up and down during the market. And this is why it is advised to invest for a long term, instead of chasing short term profits. Having an emergency fund from the beginning makes you more comfortable and maintain your investment plan without experiencing any stress.

I never said that newbies need an emergency fund before starting to invest in bitcoin, yet I did say that beginners need some back up funds so that they do not use non-discretionary funds to invest into bitcoin.

Yes I totally understand your point, but what I am saying is that emergency funds are very important. It’s not something we should abandon only because it is not necessary to have that before investing. As long as you can set aside discretionary income from what you earn, you can invest, and there is no need to wait for any perfect time to invest.

You are still speaking ambiguously (unclearly) in regards to what you mean exactly.  I already stated (and I keep repeating) that some level of back up funds is absolutely necessary to assure that guys are not investing beyond their discretionary funds, yet you seem to want to continue to fight that idea.

Regarding how much back up funds and how guys build their back up funds, that is up to each guy to figure out how much he needs and how to balance those matters, and to me it seems that a guy cannot really justify investing into bitcoin with aggression unless his back up funds are in a reasonably strong place, since if he invests aggressively he increases the likelihood that he might make mistakes, so back up funds would serve a important purpose to smooth over variabilities and inadvertent mistakes that might happen from time to time when guys are trying to push limits in the direction of trying to invest aggressively into bitcoin.

Of course, the level of aggressiveness that guys choose is within their choice, so any guy could purposefully choose to invest into bitcoin less aggressively, more conservatively and even somewhat whimpily so that he does not have to worry about having enough cash and/or making mistakes in regards to how much of his discretionary funds he is putting into bitcoin... so surely, less aggressive and/or whimpy investors do not necessarily need to be as organized and they are also likely placing less priority on bitcoin as compared with other matters that they have going on in their lives, whether it is discretionary consumption related or just wanting to be more relaxed in terms of how much time, energy and value that they are choosing to put into bitcoin.

But what if your situation does not allow you to create an investment fund and a backup fund at the same time or it is not enough

Do you think that you are going to invest in bitcoin without any back up funds?   How is that investing? rather than gambling or trading?  How can you hold for 4-10 years or longer if you have absolutely no back up funds?

It’s impossible to hold bitcoin for a 4-10 years without an emergency fund. The person will end up touching their investments if anything goes wrong with their life. Maybe in a situation where you need to pay for a medical emergency or unexpected things happen, the person will have no choice to sell off or part of their holdings. If you get the emergency fund you don’t have to touch your investment during any difficult situations.

Having an emergency fund is not going to protect a guy (or his bitcoin) from all possible situations that might come about in which the income might go down and/or the expenses go up, so ultimately, it is likely that guys are striving to figure out a level of balance that is comfortable for their own expectations about losses in income and/or increases in expenses and the various resources that they believe might be available to them to deal with the more likely situations that might arise.   And, even a guy who might have several years of his expense in bitcoin, he might be willing to take a position that his bitcoin is going to serve aspects of his back up funds, especially more dire emergencies that might end up happening, and so frequently there can be all kinds of options that exist for guys who have already spent a decent amount of time, value and energy accumulating wealth as compared with guys who might still be in their earliest of stages of building wealth.  Some guys who are in the earliest of stages building wealth may well end up taking way more chances than they need to be (or should be), and so they are ongoingly rolling the dice and/or failing/refusing to put sufficient and/or adequate back up funds (and systems) in place so that they don't have to sell any bitcoin at a time that is not completely of their own choosing, and even some of the poor guys get lured into nonsense about profits, and they may well not appreciate that even if their bitcoin is "in profits" they need to keep building it, so they end up making mistakes of selling too much bitcoin too soon merely because they are distracted by their holdings "being in profits."

[edited out]

Emergency funds is very necessary for a long term investment plan. Though it's not actually necessary having it in place before investing but it's very mandatory to think of setting it in future else you will rarely survive when real life challenges comes and will be likely forced to use from your investment holdings to settle up issues which is not advisable or healthy to any investment.

Do you think that you are going to invest into bitcoin with absolutely zero emergency funds (back up funds)?  You sound too cavalier about what you seem to be proclaiming to be the unimportance of emergency funds (back up funds).

And again, it's not that compulsory that we must have a huge amount of emergency funds at a go if in case that is our fear, in our best interest and also for our convenent, we can be accumulating our emergency funds bit by bit as much as we can go along side our investment journey till it reach up to the level of what we want instead of pressuring ourselves for no reason .

Sure.  This part is largely correct, yet there is likely a need for you to get it into your head (and your way of speaking) that makes it clear that guys cannot be starting out with absolutely no back up funds otherwise they have no way of having any level of confidence that they are not investing into bitcoin with money that is beyond their discretionary funds, which surely is not investing but instead is either gambling or trading depending on other possible specifics regarding how such bitcoin newbie is planning to carry out any basic expenses that might come to his responsibility before his next paycheck arrives.

Even though it is important to get started investing in bitcoin as soon as possible, it makes little to no sense to start out with absolutely no emergency funds (back up funds).

At least some back up funds need to be present, otherwise a person cannot be sure that he is not investing into bitcoin with non-discretionary funds.  One of the requirements of bitcoin investing is to use discretionary funds - and don't be making dumb mistakes that relate to trading or gambling.. especially since investment in bitcoin should be considered to be 4-10 years or longer, even if in the beginning a newbie might not be ready, willing or able to establish his investment timeline to be 4-10 years or longer.

Of course, many people want to invest in bitcoin, and rush to invest without building the emergency fund. The emergency funds is very important because, as an investor, you will be sure that you are investing from your discretionary fund, and not from the funds that are meant for other expenses. If new investors buy without having the backup funds, you might be forced to sell when you need money to cover other things.

However, as a long term investor, it requires patience, because bitcoin is a volatile asset and every long term investor is ready for any up and down during the market. And this is why it is advised to invest for a long term, instead of chasing short term profits. Having an emergency fund from the beginning makes you more comfortable and maintain your investment plan without experiencing any stress.

I think the balanced approach is to do both gradually. For me, once I can identify my discretionary income, I can start buying Bitcoin, even if my emergency fund is still small.

At the same time it important to have a backup fund incase of an emergency so rather than waiting for a perfect emergency fund or ignoring it completely, I prefer to build my Bitcoin position and emergency fund side by side.

It's actually the smart way to go about it, don't sideline one because of the other when you have the discretionary income to build the two together, sometimes people are more into being aggressive in their investment to the point where they want to put all of their discretionary income into their investment without thinking about setting up their backup fund as well, they simply want to accumulate bitcoin as much as postad quickly as possible, if you have the discretionary income then you would be better off just doing the two side by side.

Let me ask you this question, do you prefer to have a huge backup funds and a small portfolio because of little discretionary income or do you prefer to have a huge portfolio and little or moderate backup funds? I want to believe this question is very simple and a wise someone will know what to chose over the other. How will an investor have lots of backup funds when you don't have a good portfolio I mean what are you saving the back up funds for?  So I will prefer to have a good discretionary income and good portfolio because that is the ultimate.

Huh?  You started out with a decently good question about how to balance the investment into bitcoin and the back up funds, and then you switched over to referring to discretionary funds, which makes no sense.

if we might have had already calculated the quantity of our discretionary funds while we are deciding how to use it (invest, save and/or discretionarily consume), then after we are into the dilemma, then all of a sudden you ask if we want to increase our discretionary funds?   How does that make sense?

Of course, most folks would like to increase their discretionary funds if they are able to accomplish such by increasing their income and/or by cutting their basic spending, yet once they have established what are their discretionary funds, then they have to figure out how they are going to use it within the categories of 1) invest, 2) save and/or 3) discretionarily consume.

Maybe you know what you are talking about, even though your presentation got garbled up somewhere in the process of your outlining it.

I never said that newbies need an emergency fund before starting to invest in bitcoin, yet I did say that beginners need some back up funds so that they do not use non-discretionary funds to invest into bitcoin.

Some individuals seems to be stressing on this matter and it seems like they don’t understand anything happening on this thread, as soon as you have a discretionary income then I think it’s just better that you get started with investing in bitcoin immediately, the fact that you’re starting immediately doesn’t mean that you don’t wouldn’t start up a backup funds, because backup funds are very important for a long term investors.

It goes without expressing that backup funds are a lifeline of every investor's bitcoin investment and must be put in position to avoid not only the draining of non-discretionary funds but as well as discretionary funds which should have been used in adding up your bitcoin accumulation but has to be used in covering other matters which backup funds should have been able to take care with. A pure distortion of a consistent massive bitcoin accumulation dew to a no backup funds.

You sound confused with your expression to "put back up funds into position" prior to investing in bitcoin.

Maybe you should give an example regarding what you mean by "putting back up funds into position" prior to starting to buy bitcoin in the context of investing.

It's actually the smart way to go about it, don't sideline one because of the other when you have the discretionary income to build the two together, sometimes people are more into being aggressive in their investment to the point where they want to put all of their discretionary income into their investment without thinking about setting up their backup fund as well, they simply want to accumulate bitcoin as much as postad quickly as possible, if you have the discretionary income then you would be better off just doing the two side by side.

Going aggressively over our bitcoin accumulation is always advisable  when we have already make availability of our back up funds 3 times our income. Then with such availability of back up funds then we can wish to go aggressively but when no availability of back up funds then going aggressively would only open us to higher risk.

Investment can be start with just discretionary income alone but at the long run the back up funds should be build for emergency in future that will push us into selling our holdings. Having availability of back up in check during the journey helps to guide our portfolio from risk and emergencies that will lead to sell off.

When there is no availability of backup funds it is no longer investment but gambling at that time and that is being over aggressive at least a little bit of a backup funds should be there  while building it up alongside with your investment, this is what I considered to be the best practice because ignorance to this will result to selling your Bitcoin to sort out emergencies when it happens, being aggressive with your investment is encouraged as it should be done within the means of your discretionary income and not overdoing it.

You’re absolutely correct, not having a backup funds is more like gambling, because as a long time investor it’s more important to to have a backup funds, else you will be gambling with your bitcoin investment, having a backup funds doesn’t mean that you will have to start building a backup fund before you start investing in bitcoin, like it’s been said previously, as soon as you have a discretionary income get started with investing in bitcoin, then you can start building your backup funds afterwards, it’s very important to have a backup fund as a long term investor, talking about being aggressive, there is nothing wrong with being aggressive in a good way, and being cautious as well and also knowing your limits of aggressiveness.

You are building back up funds afterwards?  What does that mean?  You are starting investing into bitcoin without any back up funds?

How come guys have so much trouble figuring out how to describe how to start buying bitcoin?  Perhaps if guys are saying confusing things, then they might need to give an example of what they mean, since I tend to think that if guys are proclaiming that they can start their back up funds "later," then to me, that means that they are starting to buy bitcoin without any back up funds.  That does not sound like a good way to start investing into bitcoin.

Regarding your point about being aggressive?  You are going to be aggressive in buying bitcoin without any back up funds?  How is that going to work?  You just say, put 100% on green?  and then you hope for the best?

Are you sure that you are in the right thread?  You know that this is bitcoin investment thread, and specifically, my ideas about bitcoin investing.  How does gambling relate to this thread?

-

I never said that newbies need an emergency fund before starting to invest in bitcoin, yet I did say that beginners need some back up funds so that they do not use non-discretionary funds to invest into bitcoin.

I think it is not that simple for most here to differentiate between back up and emergency funds. I absolutely agree that back up funds should be in place, ideally for anyone at any age in any situation. As for emergency funds, it depends on what an individual's emergency potential looks like.

For all practical purposes the context in which I used "back up funds" and "emergency funds" above, there is no meaningful difference.  In other words they are the same thing in the above way that I was using them.

Ultimately back up funds is just a broader term that captures both emergency funds and reserve funds.. .yet if we are talking about whether to start with zero back up funds or to start with some back up funds, it does not really matter what you call it.. .if you are starting investing in bitcoin and you have absolutely no back up funds that go beyond the discretionary funds that you are dividing up to put into 1) investing, 2) savings (back up funds) and/or 3) discretionary consumption, then it does not matter what you call it.. it is the only money that you have to get you by before your next paycheck, so most likely you want to make sure that you don't run out our use it up otherwise you are starting from zero again when the next paycheck arrives.

yeah, it is risky being at or near zero.. and it would seem that normal people are going to try to build up some kind of a cash cushion so that they don't run out of money and they are also going to end up prioritizing spending on needs versus wants, especially if they don't have much if any cash cushion.

If someone needs a car to get to work, has three kids, pays a mortgage for a house, is the sole earner in the family, doesn't have insurances in place for everything, an emergency fund sounds like a must have to me. The exposure to emergencies is quite big under those circumstances.

Of course, the more expenses that a guy has, then the more challenging it will be to both make sure that the money from his job covers all of his expenses, and the more likely that he needs more extra money to make sure that he does not run out of money in between each of the times that he is paid.

If you are single, got a decent job, an injury/disability insurance to cover risk in case of an accident and subsequent loss of income, do the laundry at the laundromat around the corner, the exposure to emergencies is very different and allows for higher risks to be taken. I think there is a category of people that doesn't necessarily need excess cash, like back up cash, but a back up plan, which some may say boils down to the same. I have been in the situation and knew what I could do just in case I had to bridge a financial gap.

I am not sure if you are making any deeper point beyond that some individuals have more expenses than others.

I think most people should be able to get started with a reasonable income-based DCA approach.

Sure, it is possible that most people have discretionary funds, yet we cannot necessarily presume it, especially since discretionary funds is a requirement for both investing and for the application of a DCA approach. 

The justification of applying a DCA approach tends to presume that in the long term the value/price of the underlying asset has an upward trajectory in its price curve, even though there is no guarantee of such upward price trajectory.

If there is really no discretionary income whatsoever, every month ends with a net minus,

Yeah, but, in recent times, it seems that we have been having a lot of discussion that presumes the existence of discretionary funds, yet the non-existence of back up funds, so then the central questions had been revolving around how to get started in cases in which the starting out point involves discretionary funds and no back up funds.   So if you want to talk about the lack of discretionary funds, then you seem to be talking about a different situation in which it seems that most guys participating in this thread seem to already recognize that there needs to be discretionary funds in order to get started investing in bitcoin.

I think some other fundamentals should be changed first urgently to improve life quality in general, apart from bitcoin investments. I know it's tough for some people and circumstances can be horribly stressful, but from time to time it would be better to face that truth first because otherwise there is definitely no financial leeway to survive any bear phase in the bitcoin market ever.

Why does it matter if bitcoin happens to be in a "bear phase" or not? If we might be talking about any person that is brand new to bitcoin, then once they establish that they have discretionary funds, they are eligible to invest into bitcoin, and so if they either have absolutely no bitcoin or if they happen to be a low coiner, then they still would be (and should be) motivated to get the fuck started buying bitcoin, and yeah, if they choose some other path or they want to wait, then that surely is not what we are talking about in this thread.

IIRC, JayJuanGee has often said that your calculation should put you in a place that allows you to get along with either your holdings or DCAing for at least a four year period. That sounds about right to me. You can't predict the next war or the next crazy president, so you better be prepared to be able to hold on for four years or longer.

I don't expect a brand new investor into bitcoin to have had resolved that the minimum investment timeline for bitcoin is at least 4 years, even though surely I would think that after some time, and some looking into bitcoin, the logical conclusion would be that bitcoin is an investment and not a trade, and with bitcoin the investment timeline is 4-10 years or longer... but yeah, it may well take newbies some time to be able to reach those kinds of conclusions about their investment timeline being 4-10 years or longer. 

So then surely my opinion is that guys who have been into bitcoin for a while and/or who might be in their bitcoin accumulation phase, they should likely understand that any new bitcoin purchases would have a 4-10 year or longer timeline attached to it, otherwise why buy bitcoin?

There are going to be some guys who are able to front load their bitcoin investment by reallocating from other assets into bitcoin, yet I tend to presume that an overwhelming majority of normal people who get started investing into bitcoin, they are going to have to invest (and accumulate) bitcoin from their discretionary funds as those funds come in, so in that regard, DCA is going to tend to be the most practical, even if from time to time, they might have opportunities to lump sum invest into bitcoin based on either additional funds that might come available or their making further funds come available through their authorization of moving funds into bitcoin, yet these days, even guys who might be able to invest 15%  or more of their income into bitcoin (which tends to be a fairly aggressive rate) will still likely tend to take more than a whole cycle and perhaps even a couple of cycles before they might start to be justified in moving away from DCA and potentially into some other accumulation approach that might allow for considering supplementing their bitcoin accumulation through buying by buying on dips, too.

Of course, even though this thread is intended to talk about these kinds of BTC investment matters, guys still have to figure out whether they agree and they have to figure out how to go about investing in bitcoin and not get distracted into trading and/or shitcoins and/or other possibly irrelevant and distracting matters, even though in recent times, we also have a lot of paper bitcoin and bitcoin derivative products that might be problematic for various aspects of the strength of bitcoin's investment thesis, and of course, even if guys might have reluctancies in their getting involved in bitcoin or how they get involved, sometimes position size can also help out while they are trying to figure out how bullish that they might be about bitcoin's abilities to get through some of these ongoing adoption issues and likely ongoing attacks upon it.

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Guys should not be starting investing into bitcoin with absolutely zero back up funds and/or emergency funds.  If you are a beginner and you invest 100% of your discretionary funds into bitcoin, and you otherwise have no back up funds (or emergency funds), then how is that going to work if you have any basic expense prior to your next paycheck?  And, what if your next pay check does not come in the amount you expected or it gets delayed?  What you going to do?

This is a good point because depending on where you work on what your health situation is or your exposure to possible injury because of your job, your next paycheck may actually not be safe. That could become a serious issue one has not included in their calculations. I think almost all of us know someone who took their job for granted, up to the point when it was not.

I tend to presume that most normal people who have a job and various expenses tend to maintain something like 2-6 weeks of various kinds of cash cushions already in place, so if they come to bitcoin, they likely would be accounting for what might be their already existing quantity of back up funds and they may well start to build their bitcoin position and/or to strengthen their already existing back up funds and starting from whereever that they might be at the time that they start buying bitcoin, whether they start buying bitcoin weekly or otherwise, and yeah, sometimes it could take a bit of time to both hear about bitcoin and to start to consider it as a possible investment and then to pull the trigger to start the weekly investing or whatever might be the buying intervals, and even though I would not expect brand new bitcoiners to have the answers to all of their individual factors, they likely could get started buying bitcoin on a regular basis and also realize that they may well need to spend some time and energy looking into (and learning) about their 9 individual factors.

[Crytohillss]

You don’t need a large amount of money to invest in other words, you can start and make investments even with a small amount of money. Basically, once you’ve decided to invest, do it as soon as possible there’s no need to wait for a large sum of money. It’s better to adjust your investments to your own financial capacity, no matter how small the amount. I was once laughed at by a friend for starting with a small investment, but because I did it consistently, in the end my friend fell behind because they waited for a large sum of money to invest.

What really stands out to me is that one might wasn't truly investing into Bitcoin, he was trying to outsmart the market the theory is that the mocked a method  focused on accumulation and the risks management yet end up making costly  traders mistakes of selling everything waiting for the right entering can cause one miss everything completely making a glamorous little purchase , can generate systematic profits but over time discipline usually beats prediction.
The part that really hits is how he went from 17  to 4–5 BTC, not because Bitcoin failed, but because timing the market repeatedly proved harder than expected. That's a lesson a lot of people learn the expensive way.