Proof of work vs proof of stake? Why can't i STAKE my BTC?

[hd49728]

You can not stake your Bitcoin because Bitcoin network is Proof of Work, not Proof of Stake.

If you want to do staking, you have to join staking pool or DeFi pool but you don't stake your Bitcoin directly. You will have to swap your Bitcoin to tokens that can be on ERC-20 or BSC or any chain, and use those tokens to stake.

If you want to get your Bitcoin and stake rewards, you have to convert them to Bitcoin via swap.

[1715258834]

1715258834

[1715258834]

1715258834

[1715258834]

1715258834

[Wind_FURY]

It all depends on the algorithm itself. If the developer of a coin wants to implement POS algorithm, you will be able to stake. For example, ETH is now a POW coin so you can mine it. But in 2022 (hopefully) they will be moving to POS mechanism, so you will be able to stake the coin and won't be able to mine it using your computing power.  

What many people were hopeful about ethereum 2.0 was that people will be able to stake ethereum and also pay low transaction fee, but now still getting longer and ethereum fee is very high like nothing has been changed. Let us hope ethereum will finally move to PoS by 2022, but just that PoW is far better than PoS as the equipment used for mining are bought and help the companies producing the equipments to also gain unlike PoS that only deals with staking, also that electricity companies are also paid to produce more electricity, PoW helps in the progrey of these companies.

But that high electricity consumption from POW mining has become a weapon for the environmentalists. Whenever the bad side of POW is discussed, electricity consumption and increase carbon emissions remains the top concerns amongst others. So I personally think that POS is far better than POW.

This issue can’t be just a matter of opinion. The truth is far from your personal “opinion”, ser. Because you believe that POS “is better” than POW will not make it so. With all due respect, do your research before posting foolish things in the forum.

[franky1]

But that high electricity consumption from POW mining has become a weapon for the environmentalists. Whenever the bad side of POW is discussed, electricity consumption and increase carbon emissions remains the top concerns amongst others. So I personally think that POS is far better than POW.

You don't need expensive hardwares, you don't need to maintain the mining setup. All you need is some amount of that coin to lock up under a contract within the chain. If you don't have the required amount of coins to stake, pool staking is also available.

POS actually makes cryptocurrency more accessible to mass!

you dont need to work to get social security. so in your mind, a life on social security is a better life then working for a living?

PoW is not a weapon of environmentalists.
the big farms have since 2014 been using renewables.
its actually a weapon of the small minded racists.

ill explain briefly
alot of media portrays china as evil enemies of the west. saying that china wastes fossil fuel and produces more emissions..

but here is some stats.
american population 320mill - emissions 5gtonne
chinese population 1400mill - emissions 10gtonne

do the math. gtonne / 100m population
america: 1.56gtonne
china: 0.71gtonne

china produce under HALF as much emissions per populous

next lets look at the Gwatts produced by country
      Total(GWh)    Total RE(GWh)    RE % of total    
USA:  4,322,038       637,076       14.7%
china: 7,142,200       1,739,400    24.35%    

translate to 100m populous
      Total(GWh)    Total RE(GWh)    RE % of total    
USA:  1,350,636       199,086       14.7%
china: 510,157          124,242    24.35%    

and again china use less electricity in general per populous but more of it is renewable.
and this is even with china being the mega manufacturer of most electronic goods for the world.
think about all them factories. and industry. yet america wastes more electric and more of that electric is not renewable

so when media exaggerate that china is killing the planet. china is producing too much carbon, china is not using renewable.. thats MEDIA. not reality

..
when there are two people.. one using 13 non efficient lightbulbs in his house. and another guy using just 5 efficient lightbulbs. and its the 13bulb guy trying to tell the 5 bulb guy that the 5 bulb guy need to use less lights... sorry but thats not logic. and its definitely not a "environmental" argument. its just a way to be racist to the 5 bulb guy to try getting him to play to the whims of the 13 bulb guys naive ignorant mindset.

much like the 13 bulb guy wants to pay for his electricity using his social security cheque because he does not believe in working for his earnings, whilst the 5 bulb guys works for a living

[pooya87]

I'm unbelievably ignorant of computer science and programming, so I don't know what those attack vectors are for PoS coins (and I haven't read anything about that topic).  I don't want to go off-topic, but I'm curious as to what those are and if they've ever compromised a PoS coin before.  I've been a fan of them for a while now--and yeah, you can call me stupid for that if you like--and I haven't heard of a PoS coin that's been hacked or attacked or what have you.

The most recent thing I could think of is the paper by cryptography experts from Stanford University on 3 attack vectors on ETH PoS: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2110.10086.pdf
Cost of such attacks is negligible compared to cost of attacking even a low hashrate PoW.

Generally speaking we can name some of the serious PoS attack vectors:
- The adversary who controls a large amount of PoS coin can have a strong control over that network. For example the premined altcoins or cheap coins that could be bought with little amount of money. It is like PoW 51% attack but it doesn't necessarily need 51% of the supply.
- Long range attack called Stake Bleeding where the adversary can build an alternative chain without publishing it until it is long and the adversary has a huge stake in that chain then publishes it essentially replacing the entire honest blockchain with very little cost: https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/248.pdf
- Another long range attack called "Posterior Corruption" or "“costless simulation" which is when an old stake holder who has sold their stake perform a history-rewrite attack: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/919.pdf This could also happen if someone bought the old keys used for staking

The whole "getting paid for having money" thing isn't necessarily a design flaw, nor is it a new concept.  Investors who own dividend-paying stocks get paid for holding their stock, and it's a perfect example of passive income.

Then PoS coins should not be called cryptocurrencies anymore. Lets refer to them as high risk cryptoinvestments.

Another fundamental flaw in this economical design IMO is that those who are securing the network in Proof of Stake can abandon that chain in an instant and move to another chain. All they have to do is to dump their coins and convert them to another PoS coin.
This is not as easy in PoW because the miners that are securing the PoW chain can not easily dump their ASICs and buy new ones to mine an alternative algorithm. Even the reward you get in a PoW algorithm can not be dumped right away, coinbase outputs have to "mature" for 100 blocks before they can be spent.

[franky1]

The most recent thing I could think of is the paper by cryptography experts from Stanford University on 3 attack vectors on ETH PoS: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2110.10086.pdf
Cost of such attacks is negligible compared to cost of attacking even a low hashrate PoW.

Generally speaking we can name some of the serious PoS attack vectors:
- The adversary who controls a large amount of PoS coin can have a strong control over that network. For example the premined altcoins or cheap coins that could be bought with little amount of money. It is like PoW 51% attack but it doesn't necessarily need 51% of the supply.

exchanges have most custody of PoS coins. no need to buy/pre-mine them. just offer a custody service for free and get free coin deposited to you.

[Oshosondy]

This issue can’t be just a matter of opinion. The truth is far from your personal “opinion”, ser. Because you believe that POS “is better” than POW will not make it so. With all due respect, do your research before posting foolish things in the forum.

Some people are very lazy and will not want to research and know about how to mine but only prefer staking while what I have heard before is that people that is not having 25 ether will not be able to stake, that is a lot high amount of money now if compared to US dollar. I see how this might be a possible way of centralisation but maybe there will be staking pools which are not centralized. I still prefer PoW over PoS and what I prefer most about bitcoin PoW is that bitcoin still have the strongest blockchain in the world.

[buwaytress]

This is purportedly derived from the interest charged to borrowers, where the company taking your Bitcoin is supposed to loan out your BTC, charging interest, and giving you that interest minus their commission for managing the whole thing. It's a great model, except for the fact that borrowers in crypto tend to default. There's an entire history of crypto loan platforms going bust because Bitcoin's volatile (simplistic but that's the key).

Most of the mature platforms that have people locking in billions of dollars worth of BTC actually just rely on the smart-contract for liquidations if the collateral falls below a certain level. So, there isn't really a risk of default to these platforms. They have already functioned the way they were supposed to. The main issue is that the collateral cannot be expanded to include all kinds of shit. This is something that the established platforms shy away from.

Its those cheap, degen farms on BSC and MATIC that these anon "devs" keep throwing up everyday with only one purpose. To scam away at newbies like OP trying to understand the difference between Proof of "Stake" and "Stake" on a platform.

Tell that to MakerDAO users circa Black Monday 2020 (last year). And to a lesser extent, Compound and Aave a year later during yet another flash crash. Some very unsuspecting people otherwise "earning" easily for months got wiped out and you'd be hard pressed to find a platform more mature than MakerDAO, Compound, Aave.

Yes, smart contract liquidations work pretty well but Black Swan events (I hate using terms like these but since so many crypto people do I guess people actually get it) have incredibly unpredictable outcomes for untested smart contract functions... I'd also probably disagree with you on what makes a "mature" platform. Bitcoin is mature, Ethereum a bit behind that, but most of the platforms we're talking about here haven't even been around for 4 years.

Really I'm waiting for one of those wrapped Bitcoin defi protocols (I may be completely using the wrong terms here) to get exploited badly and people losing actual Bitcoin, for people to realise what a lie "Bitcoin defi" is.

[amishmanish]

Tell that to MakerDAO users circa Black Monday 2020 (last year). And to a lesser extent, Compound and Aave a year later during yet another flash crash. Some very unsuspecting people otherwise "earning" easily for months got wiped out and you'd be hard pressed to find a platform more mature than MakerDAO, Compound, Aave.

Hard to disagree with this because the stuck transactions and network congestion resulted in a lot of vault holders losing their collateral with no refunds on liquidation. It was indeed due to the inability of the platforms to handle such events. Though if you compare them to centralized system, people do lose money in black swan events but I'd have to dig a bit more to find a analogy.

I'd also probably disagree with you on what makes a "mature" platform. Bitcoin is mature, Ethereum a bit behind that, but most of the platforms we're talking about here haven't even been around for 4 years.

I was meaning more like Compound, Ave versus the farms on BSC and Polygon. There is really no comparison to Bitcoin. These are all quite risky plays but one can't deny that people are certainly making life-changing money from them because of the exact same reason.

[buwaytress]

Tell that to MakerDAO users circa Black Monday 2020 (last year). And to a lesser extent, Compound and Aave a year later during yet another flash crash.

Hard to disagree with this because the stuck transactions and network congestion resulted in a lot of vault holders losing their collateral with no refunds on liquidation. It was indeed due to the inability of the platforms to handle such events. Though if you compare them to centralized system, people do lose money in black swan events but I'd have to dig a bit more to find a analogy.

And I should also point out, these are only known and reported cases. In each of these, the platforms were forced to comment or issue statements, because big account holders were affected. I'm pretty sure, as was the case before with centralised p2p lenders, small accounts when affected just get ignored or swept under the rug, or aren't taken seriously for yelling on reddit or such.

I'd also probably disagree with you on what makes a "mature" platform. Bitcoin is mature, Ethereum a bit behind that, but most of the platforms we're talking about here haven't even been around for 4 years.

I was meaning more like Compound, Ave versus the farms on BSC and Polygon. There is really no comparison to Bitcoin. These are all quite risky plays but one can't deny that people are certainly making life-changing money from them because of the exact same reason.

Slightly more mature then =) but I'd say no difference since BSC and copyclones generally just lift the code and contracts from predecessors, with some improvements (if any)... right?

For sure people are making a lot of money. A lot. Just that I feel a lot more will be losing money down the line after the whales and first-floorers extract their gains.

[GreatArkansas]

There are already a lot of ways to stake your Bitcoin these days, but you will use another chain, not the Bitcoin network alone.
There is some alternative chain where you can wrapped your Bitcoin to a particular chain, like in Ethereum/Solana/Avax/BSC, what will happen is you will bridge your assets from one chain to another, for example, the Bitcoin, you will bridge it to Ethereum network and now you can use your Bitcoin as wrapped to Ethereum network.
Then this time, there is some platform that offers staking wrapped Bitcoins, and now you get incentives.