Some of the next generation miners should be based on USB-C

[nullama]

I just realized that the latest standard, USB-C 2.1 spec, allows for up to 240W of power to be delivered in a single USB-C cable. [1]

That means that you could even power a FutureBit Apollo with it, as it comes with a 200W power supply.[2]

And USB-C hubs are now able to provide up to 60W of power per port(12A).[/s]

It would be great to see a next-gen stick miner using USB-C with up to 12A.

The GekkoScience Compac F runs at 2A with normal settings, but overclocked it requires 3A per port, which makes it difficult to find an appropriate hub for it.

In theory it should be possible to have a USB-C hub with USB-C to USB3.1 adapters on each port, allowing up to 3A to be delivered to the Compac Fs. [4]

USB4 hubs allow data and power up to 3A per port using USB Type-C current, but it might be possible that they also allow data and power up to 12A as suggested by [3]. That would be great for the next generation of USB miners.


[1]: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2021/5/25/22453936/usb-c-power-delivery-extended-power-range-epr
[2]: https://shop.futurebit.io/products/pre-order-futurebit-apollo-200w-power-supply-shipping-july?variant=18591452070003
[3]: https://www.coolgear.com/product/usb-power-delivery-4-port-type-c-240w-super-speed-hub
[4]: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5355470.msg59705483#msg59705483

[1714992362]

1714992362

[1714992362]

1714992362

[1714992362]

1714992362

[1714992362]

1714992362

[DaveF]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCeSCk2JYnU

The issue I see is that there are a lot of crap USB C cables out there and as we learned with crap PCIe connectors is that they can short and destroy miners
Fire bad. [ https://youtu.be/fS6udST6lbE?t=101] (NSFW Language if you watch the entire thing)

And there are also a lot of crap USB power bricks out there. Some are a total joke in terms of what they put out vs. what they say on the label.

At this point PCIe is known and more importantly has shown that it can hold 150W for months on end with no issue.
Do you really want to try that with the $1.99 USB cable you picked up at the local 7-11?

-Dave

[sidehack]

Every time this idea has been mentioned in the last couple years, it comes down to that USB-C spec doesn't allow for both Power Delivery and data transfer at the same time. I didn't follow up on any of your links but unless that changes, it's a no-go.

[nullama]

Every time this idea has been mentioned in the last couple years, it comes down to that USB-C spec doesn't allow for both Power Delivery and data transfer at the same time. I didn't follow up on any of your links but unless that changes, it's a no-go.

Fair enough, that's for the maximum power delivery of 240W.

But USB4 hubs can deliver data and power up to 3A(15W) per device.

This is from the USB Type-C® Cable and Connector Specification Release 2.1 from May 2021: [1]



And here is an actual example of this, a USB4 hub that provides 3 ports at 3A each: [2]

Powerful Ports—3x USB4 / Thunderbolt 4 ports for speeds up to 40Gbps, and 15W charging for phones and tablets. 1x USB-A up to 10Gbps, 1x upstream Thunderbolt 4 port up to 60W charging to host

Given that it's getting harder to get those older USB2-3 hubs at 3A, and that they are not even standard, I think it would make sense to design the next USB miners with USB-C in mind, as the 3A per port is standard now there, and USB4 hubs are broadly available now.

[1]: https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-type-cr-cable-and-connector-specification-release-21
[2]: https://plugable.com/products/usb4-hub3a

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Yes using the USB-C format should be the way to go because that is headed to be the global standard for small device data and power delivery. Buutttt...

That said you have to remember one thing: The USB protocol is a master-slave setup and any USB port MUST be either a master or a slave. One way used to enforce that distinctions is the USB-A and USB-B connectors. The flat/wide 'A' side plugs into the master (pc of some sort) while perpherials - being slaves - like a printer get the square 'B' connectors.

When UBS-PD was created it kept the same master-slave setup and when it comes to delivering power the PD port is a master. Thing is that means it cannot also be a data xfr master port at the same time because 2 masters cannot control the same port. You can however have the PD port be a data slave with a 'smart' device at the other end of the cable as the data master and a power slave fed by the PD port allowing the 2 to transfer data back and forth using the 1 cable for both power and data.

So yes, you could make a stick or module that uses USB-C PD for high power delivery BUT the port it plugs into cannot also be the data master and that rules out having the 1-port (cable) idea of a tiny PC w/PD port running a stick or whatever.

[nullama]

Yes using the USB-C format should be the way to go because that is headed to be the global standard for small device data and power delivery. Buutttt...

That said you have to remember one thing: The USB protocol is a master-slave setup and any USB port MUST be either a master or a slave. One way used to enforce that distinctions is the USB-A and USB-B connectors. The flat/wide 'A' side plugs into the master (pc of some sort) while perpherials - being slaves - like a printer get the square 'B' connectors.

When UBS-PD was created it kept the same master-slave setup and when it comes to delivering power the PD port is a master. Thing is that means it cannot also be a data xfr master port at the same time because 2 masters cannot control the same port. You can however have the PD port be a data slave with a 'smart' device at the other end of the cable as the data master and a power slave fed by the PD port allowing the 2 to transfer data back and forth using the 1 cable for both power and data.

So yes, you could make a stick or module that uses USB-C PD for high power delivery BUT the port it plugs into cannot also be the data master and that rules out having the 1-port (cable) idea of a tiny PC w/PD port running a stick or whatever.

Fair enough, but you can get today USB4 hubs with 3A per port using USB Type-C current. You need USB-C PD for power higher than 3A.

And given that the current best USB miner works at 2A, overclocked at 3A, it seems like a logical next step to go with USB-C for the next generation, using 3A per miner.

[sidehack]

Cool so we'll switch to a less mechanically rigid connector and tie it into a more complex frontend that digitially negotiates a high voltage low current power and pushes that into a less efficient main regulator while leveraging a data bus designed for multi-gigabit transfer converted to a sub-megabit primitive protocol.

I mean, maybe if I didn't already have a bunch of other stuff to do I'd think about it, but I already have a bunch of other stuff to do so I would kinda rather keep doing what's worked so far. Especially since the price tag of that 3-port fancy hub you linked is about equal to what some people mentioned was an over-price for the badass-for-power seven-port regular hubs also available.

Not to say nobody else should be doing this, just that Gekko probably isn't doing this.

[DaveF]

For those of you who want something fun to do go to amazon and order one of these:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08L8NGQ6S
And one of these:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B09FLFJ7NY

And see how much power those hubs and ports can really put out for an extended period of time.


Might want to get one of these too:
https://smile.amazon.com/First-Alert-1038789-Standard-Extinguisher/dp/B01LTICQYE

To be fair I did think about larger USB powered miners for a bit then I saw how bad most of the hubs & power supples are and stopped thinking about it.
Yes you do have the better ones (Gekkos) but for the most part if you try to put real power through them for sustained time it's not going to happen.

-Dave

[sidehack]

If PD plus data was not terribly difficult, and hubs with real power throughput were more common, and cables didn't generally suck, I'd absolutely be thinking about a one-cable pod miner using USB-C. It's probably been two years since I first mentioned wanting to do that. But all the hubs I can find are more built for charging something and also attaching like extra screens and 10g NICs and stuff. Miners have a somewhat unique power/data profile and I don't really want to build a USB3/4 hub just to make it work when, like, power bricks are already a thing.

But a one-cable pod miner would be pretty sweet.