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Author Topic: Foundation Passport (FE) hardware wallet review and walkthrough  (Read 1591 times)
dkbit98
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March 03, 2022, 10:04:33 PM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #21

@n0nce did you hear the latest new about delayed release of Passport Batch2, because of supply chain issues manufacturing will begin in late March.
Website will be updated with more details next week, and now check out small sneak peak for new device bottom part with dials.
Much more sharper design this time, reminds me on decepticons from transformers Smiley


https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1499492207081963524

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n0nce (OP)
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March 04, 2022, 02:05:36 PM
 #22

@n0nce did you hear the latest new about delayed release of Passport Batch2, because of supply chain issues manufacturing will begin in late March.
Website will be updated with more details next week, and now check out small sneak peak for new device bottom part with dials.
Much more sharper design this time, reminds me on decepticons from transformers Smiley


https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1499492207081963524
Oh no that doesn't look very good! Cry You're right, it does seem like something from the Transformers movies.
Let's see what else they can tell us about them next week; fortunately you can cancel the preorders at any time..

I honestly don't understand why they are again using this model of: developing something with little to no information, collecting money (but offering to refund any time) and only showing the final product shortly before release. This way they have no chance to incorporate user feedback because it's way too late (molds done and stuff).

In v1, people could have warned them to make sure the circuit works with Alkalines, could have asked them not to make a plastic screen, and they could have made it. Since they didn't give any info about this before shipping, obviously it was too late. This time, there is no way for them to change the buttons at this point in time, since they never asked - during the design stage.

Usually, crowdsourced projects are (should be) developed with close communication to the 'investors' / buyers to make sure they won't be unhappy with the product and to make sure they won't all cancel their orders shortly before you want to ship.

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dkbit98
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March 04, 2022, 08:08:34 PM
 #23

Let's see what else they can tell us about them next week; fortunately you can cancel the preorders at any time..
I see many people commenting how they like the new design and I guess it's always going to be something like that when someone is creating redesigned device.
Best thing would be to have smaller group of testers who would provide feedback before main release, that way most of the issues would be avoided.
I think that crypto crowdsourced projects are totally different from normal tech industry, but on positive side look what ledger did with many millions they collected, they created worst X crap ever.
Let's wait few more days to see more information and better image previews.

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May 14, 2022, 09:00:13 PM
Merited by Pmalek (2), JayJuanGee (1), ABCbits (1)
 #24

Thx @n0nce for a competent review and picking on important issues. That's transparancy I enjoy.

The first version of the wallet has properties that are almost a no-go for me. Inferior power supply design. (While I like the ability to use AAA or better AA size batteries, the power circuit should've indeed been better designed to get more high enough voltage out of more normal batteries of rechargeable ones.)
But I'm not going to address any more on the first device version.

Regarding "batch 2":
I kinda like the design more than the first one, to be honest. But design has less priority for me. It has to be easy to use for the tasks that it's made for.

I have no idea how long those Li-ion rechargeable batteries will be available and how long one lasts, even if it is a very common type. For a device intended to be kept for years such rechargeables are kind of "planned" obsolescense, a point of failure which I'm not happy with. The manifacturer could mitigate this if it were possible to use the device connected to a cabled power source like the charger but without necessity of a rechargeable battery inside the wallet. Is this possible? This way you could still use the device if the battery isn't available anymore or you happen to have none which is still OK.

There is one thing that I don't understand and what is for me nearly a no-go for this nice hardware wallet: what is the purpose of a non-resettable device PIN once it has been defined for the first time? Does this also apply for the batch 2 variant? What is the security idea behind such a device design decission? I don't get it.
From a hardware wallet I expect it to be fully factory resettable, including any user defined device PIN to unlock it.

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n0nce (OP)
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May 15, 2022, 12:31:20 AM
Merited by Pmalek (2), ABCbits (1), aysg76 (1)
 #25

Let's see what else they can tell us about them next week; fortunately you can cancel the preorders at any time..
I see many people commenting how they like the new design and I guess it's always going to be something like that when someone is creating redesigned device.
On one hand, sure, but how about just offering some colour choices to choose from? Shouldn't be too much more expensive. Anyhow, I decided to keep the preorder since I ended up liking and continuing to use the v1 to this day. The timeline was pushed back a few times; hopefully it arrives soon.

Best thing would be to have smaller group of testers who would provide feedback before main release, that way most of the issues would be avoided.
I think that crypto crowdsourced projects are totally different from normal tech industry, but on positive side look what ledger did with many millions they collected, they created worst X crap ever.
Let's wait few more days to see more information and better image previews.
Yes, being able to give early product feedback would be great; renders would completely suffice for figuring out elements like form factor, colours and overall design - no need to send out prototypes (which are admittedly extremely expensive to make one-offs of).

Thx @n0nce for a competent review and picking on important issues. That's transparancy I enjoy.

The first version of the wallet has properties that are almost a no-go for me. Inferior power supply design. (While I like the ability to use AAA or better AA size batteries, the power circuit should've indeed been better designed to get more high enough voltage out of more normal batteries of rechargeable ones.)
You're welcome. I actually have a little update on the 'battery situation'. After having bought a huge pack of Alkaline batteries (40 or so), I've only used 2 of them so far and switched to number 3 & 4 a while ago. If you just turn it on, verify an address and turn it back off, it (understandably - but still) uses very very little energy and you can use it regularly without swapping batteries much. It also doesn't drain them at all if you leave them in when powered down (I had the suspicion there was a little power draw while turned off but I was wrong).
So it's not as bad as it first seemed, but it's still clear they messed up the circuitry; Foundation honestly admitted themselves they found this problem too late & had to 'quick fix' it by telling people to buy expensive Lithium batteries. I expect this to be much better on v2, let's see if the device meets expectations.

Regarding "batch 2":
I kinda like the design more than the first one, to be honest. But design has less priority for me. It has to be easy to use for the tasks that it's made for.

I have no idea how long those Li-ion rechargeable batteries will be available and how long one lasts, even if it is a very common type. For a device intended to be kept for years such rechargeables are kind of "planned" obsolescense, a point of failure which I'm not happy with.
I guess design is just very subjective, but like you, I can disregard it if it's technologically a good device. The battery model that they seem to be using is one that I've seen around for at least 10 years, maybe even heading towards 20.

1200 mAh Lithium ion battery in Nokia BL-5C form factor (included with purchase).
Indeed, this battery form factor has been around for at least 19 years this year. I expect it to continue being made; even if it stops, there seems to be a ton of rolling stock from which you can buy a few and they'll last a bunch of years for sure.

Over 250 million 1100s have been sold since its launch in late 2003
[...]
Battery: Nokia BL-5C

The manifacturer could mitigate this if it were possible to use the device connected to a cabled power source like the charger but without necessity of a rechargeable battery inside the wallet. Is this possible? This way you could still use the device if the battery isn't available anymore or you happen to have none which is still OK.
I don't know about this, as I haven't gotten my preordered unit yet.

There is one thing that I don't understand and what is for me nearly a no-go for this nice hardware wallet: what is the purpose of a non-resettable device PIN once it has been defined for the first time? Does this also apply for the batch 2 variant? What is the security idea behind such a device design decission? I don't get it.
From a hardware wallet I expect it to be fully factory resettable, including any user defined device PIN to unlock it.
This is explained in their user manual:

To change Passport's PIN, first enter your old PIN and then confirm the new PIN twice.
Passport will display new security words when entering your new PIN.
For security reasons, you cannot erase the PIN and bring Passport to a factory-fresh state – you can only change the PIN.
There are a few potential attacks if it were possible to remove the PIN, one of the most trivial to understand being the supply chain attack. Someone could resell a used unit as new by resetting the device and resealing everything. They could buy the device, flash a modified (insecure) firmware, remove the PIN and sell it to a victim. As far as I know, you need to set it up once (thus also seting a PIN) to flash a custom firmware.

I don't know if v2 will be exactly the same, but I've asked them once and if I recall correctly, they're aiming to keep the codebase of v1 and v2 similar / mostly the same. As their naming suggests, as a 'batch 2' device, it should be fairly similar to v1 software-wise, with mostly hardware changes.

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May 15, 2022, 07:56:44 AM
 #26

There are a few potential attacks if it were possible to remove the PIN, one of the most trivial to understand being the supply chain attack. Someone could resell a used unit as new by resetting the device and resealing everything. They could buy the device, flash a modified (insecure) firmware, remove the PIN and sell it to a victim. As far as I know, you need to set it up once (thus also seting a PIN) to flash a custom firmware.
How does a non-technical person verify that it's a genuine Foundation Passport hardware wallet with a genuine firmware? You mentioned supply chain attacks, and since I only have experience with Ledger, I know that a fake Ledger device can't connect to official Ledger servers. So if someone in the supply chain replaced the HW with a fake one or made modifications to it, I wouldn't be able to use it with the official software. How does it work with Foundation's HW? 

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May 15, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), Pmalek (1), dkbit98 (1)
 #27

There are a few potential attacks if it were possible to remove the PIN, one of the most trivial to understand being the supply chain attack. Someone could resell a used unit as new by resetting the device and resealing everything. They could buy the device, flash a modified (insecure) firmware, remove the PIN and sell it to a victim. As far as I know, you need to set it up once (thus also seting a PIN) to flash a custom firmware.
How does a non-technical person verify that it's a genuine Foundation Passport hardware wallet with a genuine firmware? You mentioned supply chain attacks, and since I only have experience with Ledger, I know that a fake Ledger device can't connect to official Ledger servers. So if someone in the supply chain replaced the HW with a fake one or made modifications to it, I wouldn't be able to use it with the official software. How does it work with Foundation's HW?  
You can read about it at 11.1 Passport Supply Chain Validation.

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/blob/main/SECURITY/SECURITY.md

Does the Foundation ever consider sending the devices themselves from the EU, e.g. to Austria, Switzerland, etc.? Then you don't have to trust the reseller.
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May 15, 2022, 12:58:07 PM
 #28

There are a few potential attacks if it were possible to remove the PIN, one of the most trivial to understand being the supply chain attack. Someone could resell a used unit as new by resetting the device and resealing everything. They could buy the device, flash a modified (insecure) firmware, remove the PIN and sell it to a victim. As far as I know, you need to set it up once (thus also seting a PIN) to flash a custom firmware.
How does a non-technical person verify that it's a genuine Foundation Passport hardware wallet with a genuine firmware? You mentioned supply chain attacks, and since I only have experience with Ledger, I know that a fake Ledger device can't connect to official Ledger servers. So if someone in the supply chain replaced the HW with a fake one or made modifications to it, I wouldn't be able to use it with the official software. How does it work with Foundation's HW? 
JL0 correctly linked to the guide from Foundation Devices about supply chain validation, which they urge you to go through during setup. They obviously also have some packaging protection as highlighted in my unboxing.

Honestly, constantly relying on some server to be able to use the device seems a risk of security and effectively allows the manufacturer to brick the device whenever they want. Foundation needs online servers for this initial verification, but after that you can use it indefinitely without server availability.

Does the Foundation ever consider sending the devices themselves from the EU, e.g. to Austria, Switzerland, etc.? Then you don't have to trust the reseller.
Yes, they ship international.

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May 15, 2022, 09:11:26 PM
Last edit: May 15, 2022, 09:28:23 PM by JL0
 #29

Quote
Does the Foundation ever consider sending the devices themselves from the EU, e.g. to Austria, Switzerland, etc.? Then you don't have to trust the reseller.
Yes, they ship international.
But you can not deliver the package to the parcel lockers. Because of customs etc. there are problems. For example, Keystone has recently started to deliver directly from Europe.
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May 16, 2022, 08:14:23 AM
 #30

Quote
Does the Foundation ever consider sending the devices themselves from the EU, e.g. to Austria, Switzerland, etc.? Then you don't have to trust the reseller.
Yes, they ship international.
But you can not deliver the package to the parcel lockers. Because of customs etc. there are problems. For example, Keystone has recently started to deliver directly from Europe.
Really? It may depend on location; I have a system where my locker is basically a regular address; never had an issue, also with imports. But it surely depends on the system and of course direct delivery would be better. Or just order from a local official reseller.

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May 16, 2022, 08:34:14 AM
 #31

Does the Foundation ever consider sending the devices themselves from the EU, e.g. to Austria, Switzerland, etc.? Then you don't have to trust the reseller.
The shipping is quite expensive. I remember checking it back when n0nce created his review and it was $40 no matter where you ship it to. I randomly tried with different EU, non-EU, and South American countries, but the rates never changed.

Yes, they ship international.
Their reseller network is not bad.

  • They have the UK covered with BTC Direct.
  • Cryptomaan is for costumers from the Netherlands and Belgium.
  • Other European countries include Slovenia, Russia, and Ukraine.
  • Asia has only one reseller located in Malaysia.

https://foundationdevices.com/resellers/

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May 16, 2022, 04:59:40 PM
 #32

Does the Foundation ever consider sending the devices themselves from the EU, e.g. to Austria, Switzerland, etc.? Then you don't have to trust the reseller.
They ship international to most countries but shipping can be expensive, so I recently saw someone who is opening EU based shop, but I am not sure if this is official reseller or not.
All this is for Passport Foundation Edition, and I don't think there are any resellers who are selling new batch devices.
Maybe you should contact Foundation team to find more information about this.

But you can not deliver the package to the parcel lockers. Because of customs etc. there are problems. For example, Keystone has recently started to deliver directly from Europe.
Is this Keystone Amazon EU store opened or you are talking about something else?


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May 17, 2022, 10:35:28 AM
 #33

Does the Foundation ever consider sending the devices themselves from the EU, e.g. to Austria, Switzerland, etc.? Then you don't have to trust the reseller.
They ship international to most countries but shipping can be expensive, so I recently saw someone who is opening EU based shop, but I am not sure if this is official reseller or not.
All this is for Passport Foundation Edition, and I don't think there are any resellers who are selling new batch devices.
Maybe you should contact Foundation team to find more information about this.

But you can not deliver the package to the parcel lockers. Because of customs etc. there are problems. For example, Keystone has recently started to deliver directly from Europe.
Is this Keystone Amazon EU store opened or you are talking about something else?


Yes it is the Amazon store.

Cryptomaan:

Quote
You have the right to return your order up to 14 days after receipt, without having to state your reasons, provided the seal hasn't been broken. When the seal is broken, your order is finalised and can no longer be returned. If you wish to make use of your right of withdrawal, then you have another 14 days to return your product after the cancellation. The return costs will be at your own expense.

Foundation:

Quote
Since Passport is a security device for storing Bitcoin, we cannot accept product returns.

That's why I don't want to buy from Amazon, Cryptomaan or anything else.
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May 17, 2022, 06:06:26 PM
 #34

That's why I don't want to buy from Amazon, Cryptomaan or anything else.
Sorry, but I don't understand what do you mean exactly...
You plan to order hardware wallet, but you already know that you are going to return it later or what?
It's pretty standard procedure and I don't remember last time I had to return something that I ordered, especially if it was paid by bitcoin.

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May 17, 2022, 06:14:42 PM
Merited by dkbit98 (1), n0nce (1)
 #35

That's why I don't want to buy from Amazon, Cryptomaan or anything else.
Sorry, but I don't understand what do you mean exactly...
You plan to order hardware wallet, but you already know that you are going to return it later or what?
It's pretty standard procedure and I don't remember last time I had to return something that I ordered, especially if it was paid by bitcoin.
I may have expressed myself wrong. I was concerned that if I would order the wallet, I would only buy it from the manufacturer himself. Because at Amazon, Cryptomaan etc. the products can be returned. For me, this is no longer a security product. There have already been enough cases like e.g. with Ledger. Fake ledgers were sold there. They looked exactly like the originals. I want to say that the Foundation is on the right track and does not accept returns after shipping.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/8v5d43/is_my_ledger_fake_i_ordered_this_from_amazon_from/
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May 18, 2022, 12:07:24 PM
 #36

That's why I don't want to buy from Amazon, Cryptomaan or anything else.
Sorry, but I don't understand what do you mean exactly...
You plan to order hardware wallet, but you already know that you are going to return it later or what?
It's pretty standard procedure and I don't remember last time I had to return something that I ordered, especially if it was paid by bitcoin.
I may have expressed myself wrong. I was concerned that if I would order the wallet, I would only buy it from the manufacturer himself. Because at Amazon, Cryptomaan etc. the products can be returned. For me, this is no longer a security product. There have already been enough cases like e.g. with Ledger. Fake ledgers were sold there. They looked exactly like the originals. I want to say that the Foundation is on the right track and does not accept returns after shipping.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/8v5d43/is_my_ledger_fake_i_ordered_this_from_amazon_from/
hardware wallets that provide a physical form of wallets that are lightweight and easy to carry anywhere, although it's not a dream but I need to save money to buy this wallet unlike software, which is quite the opposite. lucky you who are in the scope of the amazon market another thing that makes it easy to return and exchange if not what you want happens. Me who is in Asia may be able to complain, but time efficiency and risk on the road are taken into consideration beyond the price of a hardware wallet, of course what is sent

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June 05, 2022, 11:46:31 PM
Last edit: June 05, 2022, 11:56:54 PM by Agbe
 #37

Whao! @n0nce, this is one in series of hardware wallet review I have ever seen. At first I thought hardware wallet is meant only for Fiat physical currency while software wallet is for online banking and transactions but today I have come to fully understand the hardware wallet.

Divers hardware wallets
After reading the OP, I also made some research to see more hardware wallets and to understand it more, then I came to see different kinds of hardware wallets.


Flash drive like and cell phone like hardware wallets and I was wow!!!

https://www.google.com/search?q=hardware+wallet&client=ms-android-transsion-itel-rev1&prmd=inv&sxsrf=ALiCzsYnOJiQ_iHd_joKghamx8pKYRKe6A:1654468865318&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjohonosJf4AhVThM4BHcv4CCwQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=320&bih=512&dpr=1.5


Hi, this is Zach from Foundation Devices.

Batteries

For the batteries, we chose AAA's very early on for a few reasons. We liked the security profile (they are 100% "dumb" with no chip inside), they are readily available across the world, and they allow for the device to operate in an airgapped manner.

What we didn't realize, though, is how bad normal AAA's are at holding their voltage. If the voltage dips too much, then Passport simply can't operate. So normal AAA's used with Passport aren't fully drained – they can be used in devices like remote controls – but they are too drained for Passport to handle.

We didn't realize this until later on, and by then it was too far along to pause everything and redo the electromechanical design. So we responded by canceling our order of normal AAAs, finding some sources for more expensive Lithium AAA's, and publishing a support guide that recommended an option of rechargeable lithium (constant voltage) AAA's to our users.

In hindsight, I think our AAA decision was a mistake, and we are rectifying this for Batch 2.


zherbert, in any electronic device that uses battery. Battery is the most important feature of the device. If the battery is not strong the device is useless. If you can see the cell phone technological world, those cell phones that have weak battery are not popular in the market. Therefore, with this review even though you can't retrieve all the batteries that have been produced and sent, the new ones you are to produce should be improved to stay longer for good recommendation.

I am also using AAA batteries for my Satellite Decoder Remote now and the batteries are better than Tiger batteries.

.
.Duelbits.
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June 06, 2022, 12:04:50 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), n0nce (1)
 #38

<Snip>
I guess you have a lot to catch up on when it comes to hardware wallets. Luckily, you are in the right sub-board for that. Start reading the threads in the Hardware wallets sub that you think look interesting.

Let me give you a few recommendations and then we should get out of this thread because this discussion is about the Foundation Passport and not HWs in general. If you have additional questions, ask in the appropriate threads.

[BIG LIST] Hardware wallets (80+)
This is a big list of popular and not so popular HWs.

Open Source Hardware Wallets
This is a shorter one focusing only on devices that are open-source.

Show off your hardware wallet
Here you can take a look at some picture posted by forum members and see how they look in real life.

Sorry n0nce...

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June 26, 2022, 11:41:58 PM
Merited by PrivacyG (3), JayJuanGee (1), Pmalek (1), dkbit98 (1)
 #39

I've waited a bit longer than I thought for another update on Passport, but I wanted to have more than one thing to share.

First of all, it appears after multiple months of delays, things are speeding up now.
The price was increased from the 'preorder' price of $199 to the final price of $249; much closer to the 'batch 1' / 'v1' price of $299, but probably a better deal since it appears to be a bit better and costs almost 20% less. It also indicates that the 'shipping in July' notice seems realistic, as waiting more than a month, paying 'retail' (as opposed to the earlier 'preorder') price would be a bit of a ripoff.
$249.00 Add to cart

They announced a 'very soon' deadline a lot of times already, but the price increase indicates to me that they're confident this time (fingers crossed).
SHIPPING UPDATE

We are excited to announce that final assembly for Passport Batch 2 is beginning next week, and we expect to begin shipping to customers by end of next week!

Special preorder pricing of $199 for Passport is also ending this week.



My second update to this thread is that after 5 months of frequent usage, I went through less batteries than I thought, but in some situations it's still pretty unconvenient / risky if you don't have 'Lithium' (not Lithium-Ion!) batteries.

To visualize this: if you set the screen brightness to the lowest setting and quickly turn on the device, enter your password, sign a PSBT on a microSD and turn it right back off, it consumes so little energy that you can use a set of batteries for months.
But if you do something more energy intensive, like a firmware upgrade, it drains the battery terrifyingly quickly; to the point where I was worried it would shut down during the upgrade and brick the device. So while I'd today say 'it's fine' using readily available Alkalines in everyday usage (and I still love the idea of using those) it's risky to run it on Alkalines for firmware upgrades or probably also stuff like device reset and restore operations. In that case, do get new (expensive) Lithium one-time-use batteries or hook up an external 3V power supply to the battery connectors.

Something like this could actually make sense for maximum safety:


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dkbit98
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July 05, 2022, 01:29:45 PM
 #40

While we are waiting for n0nce to receive his new batch2 Passport wallet, I found some comparison images between old and new Passport devices.
We can see that new device is taller, thinner and it has much better screen, but I think that major improvement was made inside with new battery design.
All owners of Passport Founder’s Edition can apply for beta testing of their new Envoy app.

   

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