BitBox02 Experiences

[OROBTC]

...

BitBox is a sponsor at the Bitcoin 2022 Conference this April in Miami.  I plan to go, and will take a look at their booth (and Bitbox02 as well I presume).  Miami Ref: https://b.tc/conference

Have any of you had the chance to use BitBox02 (whether the Bitcoin only version or the multi-currency one)?


(I have used Trezor Model 2 and Ledger S, I prefer the Trezor)

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[Pmalek]

You asked this before. In October 2021, you created a similar thread.
Back then, n0nce told you he used one and posted some feedback about it:

I have some experience with this wallet. Very easy to set up, back up, use.
App works well on all operating systems, intuitive and simple, but with enough options like different currency conversions etc.; it also works with Electrum.
Build quality is good, although the screen cover is just plastic (like all other hw wallets I've seen so far), which means if you carry it in your pocket it will scratch up fast. I hope they will fix this in the future, but unfortunately many wallets that have a larger screen, have this issue.
What's quite interesting is the password entry. It's done by tapping the case on either side in specific locations. Compared to the BB01, where the password was entered via the GUI on the host computer, this is much better since you can't write a software that tries brute-forcing it and you can't key-log it either. It's also very hard to e.g. video record (or watch) someone enter the password and properly see what they're inputting, compared to e.g. a two-button input sequence that may be spotted from a distance.

If he still uses it, he might be able to share some more info about what he thinks of it today.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

BitBox is a sponsor at the Bitcoin 2022 Conference this April in Miami.  I plan to go, and will take a look at their booth (and Bitbox02 as well I presume).  

I just stumbled across this thread, as I recently purchased a BitBox02 and was wondering if anyone was discussing it.  And by the way, did you go to the conference?  I looked and it was earlier in the month, so I'm curious how it was and if you ended up seeing the BitBox booth.

So far I'm impressed (or at least satisfied) with the BitBox02, though I haven't put it through heavy use by any means.  I didn't know exactly how they worked before I bought mine, and now that I've used it I'm left with this question:  Why not just use Electrum instead of having a HW wallet that depends on Electrum, which appears to be the case with the BitBox?  

Anyhow, I like the size of the device and the display.  It wouldn't even come close to the Ledger's appeal factor (for me) except for the fact that the BitBox code is open-source (which is why I got the thing in the first place).  I'm going to search this section again to see if anyone else has shared their experience with it, but if not I'd like to hear some opinions.  I can't imagine none of the HW Wallet section haven't at least tried the BitBox.

Oh, and it's way, way too expensive for what you get if you compare it to other hardware wallets.

Edit: DOH!!  I got confused with the Electrum dependence thing--I'm thinking of the Satochip, which I also tried out.  You can tell I haven't used either one that much since getting them.  My memory, it's slippin'.

[n0nce]

Why not just use Electrum instead of having a HW wallet that depends on Electrum, which appears to be the case with the BitBox? 
[~]
Edit: DOH!!  I got confused with the Electrum dependence thing--I'm thinking of the Satochip, which I also tried out.  You can tell I haven't used either one that much since getting them.  My memory, it's slippin'.

Is it clear that when using Electrum without a hardware wallet, the key resides on your PC and exposes it to a larger attack surface?

Anyhow, I like the size of the device and the display.  It wouldn't even come close to the Ledger's appeal factor (for me) except for the fact that the BitBox code is open-source (which is why I got the thing in the first place).  I'm going to search this section again to see if anyone else has shared their experience with it, but if not I'd like to hear some opinions.  I can't imagine none of the HW Wallet section haven't at least tried the BitBox.

I don't have much to add to what was said above, other than the fact it's worth considering they, as a Switzerland-based company, are heavily involved in AOPP and everyone should make their own judgment on this matter. More on AOPP in this topic.

One thing that I mentioned somewhere else here in another context is that in the past I had created a 'secondary wallet' for someone in the BitBox software and after a few years when they wanted to access it again, it didn't show up. It was very counterintuitive to get it back: we had to 'create a new Bitcoin wallet' again and there the funds reappeared. They appear to be using derivation paths to allow you to have multiple different wallets under the same seed and without passphrase, but the wallet doesn't store or communicate this information to the host. So in practice, if you get a new PC, it 'forgets' that these wallets exist. It was the only 'bad experience' with this wallet, really.

Oh, and it's way, way too expensive for what you get if you compare it to other hardware wallets.

On the contrary, I find it really well priced. It's 119€ with tax included, has open-source hardware and software and they offer a Bitcoin-only version with reduced attack surface. I also like that you can do SD card backups, which the only really cheaper alternatives (Trezor and Ledger) don't have. This feature alone makes it more suitable for friends & family that I don't trust remembering how to handle, store and restore seed words. It's easier for them to keep the SD card safe and plug it into a new BitBox if it breaks, to restore the seed. It's not a replacement for a proper raw paper backup, but it's a really nice addition.

[dkbit98]

So far I'm impressed (or at least satisfied) with the BitBox02, though I haven't put it through heavy use by any means.  I didn't know exactly how they worked before I bought mine, and now that I've used it I'm left with this question:  Why not just use Electrum instead of having a HW wallet that depends on Electrum, which appears to be the case with the BitBox?

I don't think that BitBox device is depending on Electrum wallet, and they have their own open source application you can use if you want.
It's not the same thing if you are using only Electrum because private keys never leaves bitbox device and they never touch internet.

Oh, and it's way, way too expensive for what you get if you compare it to other hardware wallets.

I don't understand what do you mean exactly?
€119 is one of the cheapest hardware wallets available on market, only trezor model one and ledger s/s+ are cheaper, but it's not a drastic difference.
Trezor one doesn't have a secure element, and ledger is all closed source device that has bunch of problems.
Bitbox is open source and it's based on modified Trezor code with addition of secure element, but I don't like their AOPP stance.

[Pmalek]

One thing that I mentioned somewhere else here in another context is that in the past I had created a 'secondary wallet' for someone in the BitBox software and after a few years when they wanted to access it again, it didn't show up. It was very counterintuitive to get it back: we had to 'create a new Bitcoin wallet' again and there the funds reappeared. They appear to be using derivation paths to allow you to have multiple different wallets under the same seed and without passphrase, but the wallet doesn't store or communicate this information to the host. So in practice, if you get a new PC, it 'forgets' that these wallets exist. It was the only 'bad experience' with this wallet, really.

Ledger does the same, however you can check the derivation paths to all your accounts from the settings menu. Each account has a slightly different derivation path. Is BitBox using something non-standard? Judging by the info on https://walletsrecovery.org/, BitBox and Ledger have the same standard paths, and it shouldn't be too difficult to adjust. Do you remember what path the account had that you created for that other person?

[n0nce]

One thing that I mentioned somewhere else here in another context is that in the past I had created a 'secondary wallet' for someone in the BitBox software and after a few years when they wanted to access it again, it didn't show up. It was very counterintuitive to get it back: we had to 'create a new Bitcoin wallet' again and there the funds reappeared. They appear to be using derivation paths to allow you to have multiple different wallets under the same seed and without passphrase, but the wallet doesn't store or communicate this information to the host. So in practice, if you get a new PC, it 'forgets' that these wallets exist. It was the only 'bad experience' with this wallet, really.

Ledger does the same, however you can check the derivation paths to all your accounts from the settings menu. Each account has a slightly different derivation path. Is BitBox using something non-standard? Judging by the info on https://walletsrecovery.org/, BitBox and Ledger have the same standard paths, and it shouldn't be too difficult to adjust. Do you remember what path the account had that you created for that other person?

Actually, the software shows no paths at all, that's just an assumption made by me, due to the fact that creating a new 'wallet #2' didn't create a new wallet at all, but returned the secondary wallet we had created.
Therefore I also can't easily tell what paths it uses. It's possible that you can view it somewhere in the software settings or so, but I don't have the device here to test.

I'd just wanted to make people aware of this and also encourage trying to retrieve the path of any wallet and store it together with its seed phrase backup.

[OROBTC]

...

I bought one (BitBox02, BTC-only) at the Miami BTC conference.  I am out of town so don't remember exactly what I paid for it, but I think it was a little bit less than I have seen online, my price was something on the order of $120.  I didn't have to worry about Sales Tax or VAT either...  Nor did they ask who I was, smile.

It was not as easy to learn as I had hoped ("tap" is a very light tap for example), but I was able to get it set up quickly, the "secondary password" was also easy and pretty clear to set up.

I have NOT yet figured out how to do "coin control" yet (out of town), that it is a feature I like about Wasabi.  I will explore that upon return home.

So after some more work exploring my device, I will likely be able to say which of Trezor Model T or BB02 I like better, but both are very good experiences as far as I am concerned.

[dkbit98]

It was not as easy to learn as I had hoped ("tap" is a very light tap for example), but I was able to get it set up quickly, the "secondary password" was also easy and pretty clear to set up.

I saw several people complaining about that and I personally prefer normal buttons instead of touch screen fake buttons.
My suggestion is to not remove protective foil from the screen, or make your own custom one to avoid scratches.

I have NOT yet figured out how to do "coin control" yet (out of town), that it is a feature I like about Wasabi.  I will explore that upon return home.

I think you can use coin control just fine with Electrum, and to make things easier to you BitbBox02 works with other third party wallets like Wasabi, Specter and Sparrow.
If you are using their native app it's simple if you follow this simple guide and Enable coin control in Advanced Settings:
https://shiftcrypto.support/help/en-us/14-privacy/31-how-to-use-coin-control

[OROBTC]

It was not as easy to learn as I had hoped ("tap" is a very light tap for example), but I was able to get it set up quickly, the "secondary password" was also easy and pretty clear to set up.

I saw several people complaining about that and I personally prefer normal buttons instead of touch screen fake buttons.
My suggestion is to not remove protective foil from the screen, or make your own custom one to avoid scratches.

I have NOT yet figured out how to do "coin control" yet (out of town), that it is a feature I like about Wasabi.  I will explore that upon return home.

I think you can use coin control just fine with Electrum, and to make things easier to you BitbBox02 works with other third party wallets like Wasabi, Specter and Sparrow.
If you are using their native app it's simple if you follow this simple guide and Enable coin control in Advanced Settings:
https://shiftcrypto.support/help/en-us/14-privacy/31-how-to-use-coin-control

Thank you very much, dkbit98.  I will examine shiftcrypto's support link you cited.

Once I figured out how the device worked ("tap", etc.), I got used to it.  So far so good.

[n0nce]

It was not as easy to learn as I had hoped ("tap" is a very light tap for example), but I was able to get it set up quickly, the "secondary password" was also easy and pretty clear to set up.

I saw several people complaining about that and I personally prefer normal buttons instead of touch screen fake buttons.
My suggestion is to not remove protective foil from the screen, or make your own custom one to avoid scratches.

I don't know if you're aware of that, but it's not a touch screen. The device just has touch-sensitive areas on all sides, under the plastic. So you don't need to touch the actual screen and scratch or smudge it. I personally really enjoy that interface, since buttons wear out and it could be easier to 'shoulder surf' when there are buttons involved.
With that said, the screen does scratch very easily (without touching it!! ); even quicker than thin, plastic screen protectors. I found cutting one of those to size works. It's a pity though that they have a logo that sticks out, because it means either a large air bubble or you need to cut out that area.

[dkbit98]

I don't know if you're aware of that, but it's not a touch screen. The device just has touch-sensitive areas on all sides, under the plastic. So you don't need to touch the actual screen and scratch or smudge it.

I know about that, this touch sensitive areas are on top side and there is no connection with screen, but he has a new device and I heard that people are saying that screen scratches very easy from regular usage.
I always try to keep foils on all my devices as long as I can

[cygan]

with the Motterascio update (v9.15.0) released today, the hardware wallet BitBox02 receives with miniscript an exciting new functionality in addition to minor improvements. miniscript will open up many new and, above all, more complex possibilities for storing one's own Bitcoin in the future, which can now be implemented much more reliably and easily in practice thanks to a uniform standard.
miniscript is actually not a completely new programming language, but rather a kind of interpreter that translates from a principle that is comprehensible to humans into a more complex and 'raw' Bitcoin script. this standardized conversion into the more complicated of the two languages thus enables significantly more application possibilities on the one hand.


https://bitbox.swiss/blog/bitbox-08-2023-marinelli-update/
https://github.com/digitalbitbox/bitbox02-firmware/releases/tag/firmware%2Fv9.15.0

[Pmalek]

<>

Not that long ago a vulnerability was found with the Miniscript language and its spending policies in Ledger hardware wallets. In theory, it created wrong addresses that others could abuse to spend your coins. In practice and according to what Yamane_Keto explained, there was no wallet implementation that fully supported the Miniscript feature and the creation of descriptors. According to him, no wallet was vulnerable to the vulnerability. It has, in the meantime, been fixed. Hopefully, the BitBox team knows what not to do.

[cygan]

with the following tweet BitBox has just announced the integration of a lightning wallet into the BitBox app. what is particularly exciting is that the ln wallet will be set up using the BitBox02 hardware.
the private keys of the cold storage naturally remain where they belong - securely on the hardware wallet. it will likely be a while before today's announcement becomes a reality for BitBox customers and the new lightning wallet can enter beta.


https://twitter.com/BitBoxSwiss/status/1714646190040449361
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-tJSj-dU0&ab_channel=BitBox

[Pmalek]

what is particularly exciting is that the ln wallet will be set up using the BitBox02 hardware.

What did you mean when you said this? It makes it sound like the hardware device will provide the RNG for the entropy of the keys for the lightning wallet, but that's probably not it. Will the Lightning Network wallet be separate from the main one (with its own keys) or just a feature of the standard wallet?

[cygan]

✂️
Will the Lightning Network wallet be separate from the main one (with its own keys) or just a feature of the standard wallet?

the integration of a lightning wallet takes place directly in the own BitBox app. as a user, you are supposed to keep full control over your own keys.
the whole thing is made possible by a partnership with Breez SDK, which in turn relies on Greenlight as a 'lightning-as-a-service' provider.
more information can be found in the following medium article: BitBox Chooses Breez SDK for Lightning Integration

[cygan]

a counterfeit version of the BitBoxApp, the wallet software for the BitBox02, has emerged. as with the Ledger Live counterfeit, this is by no means an actually functioning version of the original software, but merely a simple visual imitation. it attempts to put the user under pressure by displaying a supposed error message asking them to enter the 12 or 24 recovery words.
fortunately, the affected user immediately became suspicious when the 'BitBoxApp' asked for his recovery words and reported the incident to the BitBox support team.
the victim caught the fake BitBoxApp himself via a top-listed search engine result. in such cases, it is easy to overlook the fact that it is not the correct domain or that the website looks incorrect in one place or another.

you can read exactly what happened in the tweet below:


https://nitter.net/BitBoxSwiss/status/1725491128521068958

[The Sceptical Chymist]

a counterfeit version of the BitBoxApp, the wallet software for the BitBox02, has emerged.

I'm shocked, I tell you.  Shocked!!

what is particularly exciting is that the ln wallet will be set up using the BitBox02 hardware.

What did you mean when you said this? It makes it sound like the hardware device will provide the RNG for the entropy of the keys for the lightning wallet, but that's probably not it. Will the Lightning Network wallet be separate from the main one (with its own keys) or just a feature of the standard wallet?

Now this is actually what I came to the HW wallet section for, because I was just on Bitbox's website and saw that they were developing their own little device from which you could run a bitcoin lightning network node, which they called the BitBoxBase.  I'd never read anything on the forum about this and was wondering if anyone knew about it.  It's not revolutionary for experienced users, of course, but for retards like me it might be a neat thing to blow money on.



Guess they put the development on hold for some reason.

[cygan]

today another video was published by BitBox, which shows how an ln transaction is received on a desktop computer and spent again via a mobile phone


https://twitter.com/BitBoxSwiss/status/1729874292249407915