Russian mixers, might this be a problem?

[OROBTC]

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For various good reasons, mixing BTC is a good idea for many people.  Breaking the link between acquisition of BTC and their subsequent "resting place" gives a measure of security.

But, I have found that even rudimentary blockchain analysis techniques can pick up the fact that you have used a mixer.  And likely the chain analysis firms can track the country where the mixer operates.  Also, there are clues that can be sussed-out from the mixers' websites and/or commentaries.

This might become, very soon perhaps, a problem for users of mixers.

I have decided that CoinJoins will work better for me for the time being.

I welcome discussion!


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[1714216255]

1714216255

[suchmoon]

But, I have found that even rudimentary blockchain analysis techniques can pick up the fact that you have used a mixer.

The purpose of a mixer isn't to hide the fact that you're using a mixer, it's primarily to break the link between incoming and outgoing coins. Technically CJ never breaks that link, it just introduces a shitload of plausible deniability. But if you mix a large amount you have to be very patient with it. Mixing e.g. 100 BTC will stand out.

Anyway, I use CJ almost exclusively since I'm not in a hurry so my coins are tumbling there for months and that gives me sufficient anonymity I think. For a quick mix I may still use a centralized mixer (three guesses as to which one) once in a while, never cared where it's based. You don't know where the coinjoins are coming and going either.

[dkbit98]

I have decided that CoinJoins will work better for me for the time being.

I don't know if you saw recent publications posted from Chainalysis how they deanonymized all transactions made by wasabi wallet using coinjoin.
This could very well be one more of their propaganda advertisement like they are doing with Lightning Network tracking,  but in this case they did show connection with DAO hacker from 2016.
Laura Shin revealed the identity of DAO hacker in her book, but Chainalysis is still refusing to explain with more details how they are doing this.
I think that mixers are superior compared to coinjoins but with both of them users can make mistakes that could lead to deanonymization and making connections with your addresses.

Here is one article with more details about this case:
https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/135148/a-look-at-chainalysis-claim-to-track-bitcoin-through-mixing-service-coinjoin

[ABCbits]

But, I have found that even rudimentary blockchain analysis techniques can pick up the fact that you have used a mixer.  And likely the chain analysis firms can track the country where the mixer operates.  Also, there are clues that can be sussed-out from the mixers' websites and/or commentaries.

This might become, very soon perhaps, a problem for users of mixers.

What kind of problem user could face if they use mixer which operated from russia rather than another mixer (which operated from different country or unknown location)? Most centralized service already blacklist coin which comes from any kind of mixer/coinjoin.

[OROBTC]

But, I have found that even rudimentary blockchain analysis techniques can pick up the fact that you have used a mixer.  And likely the chain analysis firms can track the country where the mixer operates.  Also, there are clues that can be sussed-out from the mixers' websites and/or commentaries.

This might become, very soon perhaps, a problem for users of mixers.

What kind of problem user could face if they use mixer which operated from russia rather than another mixer (which operated from different country or unknown location)? Most centralized service already blacklist coin which comes from any kind of mixer/coinjoin.

Well, it's precisely Russia (under massive sanctions nearly worldwide) that make me wonder.  I already know that various mixers are from Russia, including at least one that I have used.

There may be increasing pressure from Western governments to closely examine ANY transactions to/from Russian mixers.  Yes, I understand that many centralized services do not want "tainted" BTC from mixers/coinjoins.

[NeuroticFish]

There may be increasing pressure from Western governments to closely examine ANY transactions to/from Russian mixers.

The governments already consider mixers undesirable (to say it nice), no matter where are they from. So I don't see any significant change.
And while I do expect them easily see what money was mixed, I don't expect them know which mixer was used for all those addresses.

And, finally, it's known that the illegal money transferred through crypto is rather small amount and I don't expect this change much and suddenly during this war. So I don't think that keeping a more vigilant eye expressly on Russian mixers worth the hassle.

[hugeblack]

I do not expect a mixer to provide official registration papers and a license to work in a country, and I also do not think that a country will give that mixer that license. Therefore, it is difficult or almost impossible to know the location of the mixer.

It is possible to know and trace the source of the coins and therefore using a mixer such as CoinJoins means that more central services may know the source of your funds.
Generally what are you trying to look for here?


If you want to break the link between your input and output, using centralized or decentralized platforms that do not require identity verification or any central mixer will suffice.

But if you want to be 100% anonymous, Bitcoin is not the right option or at least you have to be careful and professional (manage full node, Tor, broadcast transactions yourself, etc.).

[Rmcdermott927]

What kind of problem user could face if they use mixer which operated from russia rather than another mixer (which operated from different country or unknown location)? Most centralized service already blacklist coin which comes from any kind of mixer/coinjoin.

Well, it's precisely Russia (under massive sanctions nearly worldwide) that make me wonder.  I already know that various mixers are from Russia, including at least one that I have used.

There may be increasing pressure from Western governments to closely examine ANY transactions to/from Russian mixers.  Yes, I understand that many centralized services do not want "tainted" BTC from mixers/coinjoins.

I agree with @NeuroticFish, government already take non-friendly stance against mixer and it's likely both government and blockchain analysis service already track/analyze all transaction/address which comes from/to mixer.

While it's possible they spend more money/effort to trace transaction/address which comes from/to russian mixer, it's likely Russian who're being skeptical use mixer which not originated from russia.

.

Mixers are a terrible idea in general.  Never give someone you don’t trust unfettered access to your coins.   I’d give the advice I would give with gambling.  Don’t risk anything you are not fully prepared to lose.

[NeuroticFish]

Mixers are a terrible idea in general.  Never give someone you don’t trust unfettered access to your coins.   I’d give the advice I would give with gambling.  Don’t risk anything you are not fully prepared to lose.

Anybody should always be cautious when using a new platform, no matter it's gambling, trading, mixing related.
One should be careful and try to use, where possible, reputed platforms and never with life changing funds at once.

That's OK. But from normal cautiousness to labeling all mixers "a terrible idea" is a big step in the wrong direction.
I'd say that your statement is pretty much similar with telling "never use any exchange because not your keys, not your coins".



PS. Some may say that my statements here are biased. Well, I would say the same even if I would not wear this signature, but one can believe what he wants; this is the beauty of the freedom of speech.

[mk4]

Mixers are a terrible idea in general.  Never give someone you don’t trust unfettered access to your coins.   I’d give the advice I would give with gambling.  Don’t risk anything you are not fully prepared to lose.

So.. pretty much screw literally any service that (temporarily) holds custody over your bitcoin? It's not like you need to go all in with all your bitcoin when using mixers in the first place, because you definitely don't need to.

[PrimeNumber7]

Anyway, I use CJ almost exclusively since I'm not in a hurry so my coins are tumbling there for months and that gives me sufficient anonymity I think. For a quick mix I may still use a centralized mixer (three guesses as to which one) once in a while, never cared where it's based. You don't know where the coinjoins are coming and going either.

It is possible, in some cases to trace the inputs to their outputs when using CJ. Deductive logic can be used to make these conclusions, along with clustered addresses before and after coin is passed through the CJ. If there is a series of CJ transactions that are continuously running, and people can have their coin in the CJ for an arbitrary amount of time, tracing the transactions would be more difficult, but not impossible.