bip 39 mnemonic pass phrase

[bitboy23]

Hi all. I have one question (well two actually) that I think I know the answer to but want to be 100% on and cannot find a precise answer to. If I keep secure only my BIP 39 seed pass phrase is this all I will ever need to recover my private keys? Do I need to keep additional information as well? I have heard you should keep such things as the wallet you generated the keys on, the date you generated the seed etc. Is this really necessary? Is there a chance in future the bitcoin standard could evolve away from the 24-word BIP39 standard and my seed phrase could become inoperable to regenerate my private keys?

My second question is what coins are not covered by the BIP39 pass phrase? I heard etherum isn't but uses another standard. Any others? Do most coins do so? Thanks in advance!

[1714092193]

1714092193

[1714092193]

1714092193

[mk4]

It's highly highly unlikely that I'd say it's impossible for there to be an update to Bitcoin that would make the current backup scheme obsolete. The devs and community always take backwards compatibility into account.

And no, you only need the 12-24 words (and the passphrase, if you've chosen to have one).

My second question is what coins are not covered by the BIP39 pass phrase? I heard etherum isn't but uses another standard. Any others? Do most coins do so? Thanks in advance!

Haven't heard of a single project that doesn't use BIP39.

[odolvlobo]

If I keep secure only my BIP 39 seed pass phrase is this all I will ever need to recover my private keys? Do I need to keep additional information as well? I have heard you should keep such things as the wallet you generated the keys on, the date you generated the seed etc. Is this really necessary? Is there a chance in future the bitcoin standard could evolve away from the 24-word BIP39 standard and my seed phrase could become inoperable to regenerate my private keys?

In addition to the phrase, you need the derivation paths of all of your accounts. Typically, you can look up the derivation paths that the wallet uses, so you don't absolutely need to record them. The derivation paths are important because different wallets may use different derivation paths. So, if you move to another wallet you may need to enter custom derivation paths instead of the default paths used by the wallet.

BIP-39 and BIP-32 (which generates the private keys from the seed phrase) are implemented in wallet by the wallet developer. They are not part of the Bitcoin protocol and so what happens in the future depends completely on the wallet developers.

My second question is what coins are not covered by the BIP39 pass phrase? I heard etherum isn't but uses another standard. Any others? Do most coins do so? Thanks in advance!

It totally depends on the wallet.

[Charles-Tim]

If you use a BIP39 seed phrase and seed phrase generated by Electrum wallet, you will be able to use only the seed phrase to recover your coins, it is good to use a wallet that follows the standard derivation parts too for the seed phrase to generate your keys and addresses.

If you include passphrase while you generated the seed phrase, the keys and addresses will be different from when you generate seed phrase and you do not include passphrase, this will lead to generation of another keys and addresses. In this regard, you will have to include the passphrase to recover your keys and addresses, else your coins will be lost if only seed phrase is remembered.


Let me add this, you do not need your password during recovery, your password is only limited to your present wallet. During recovery, what is most important is your seed phrase (+passphrase if included).

[pooya87]

If I keep secure only my BIP 39 seed pass phrase is this all I will ever need to recover my private keys?

Don't confuse BIP39 seed phrase and the BIP39 passphrase.
The former is the 12 to 24 words that represent your entropy and the later is an optional arbitrary length string you can add to the seed phrase to "extend" it.
Since passphrase is optional you only need to create a secure backup of your seed phrase.

Do I need to keep additional information as well? I have heard you should keep such things as the wallet you generated the keys on, the date you generated the seed etc. Is this really necessary?

You don't need the date but you need to know what wallet generated the seed phrase. It is because you need to know the algorithm (BIP39 or Electrum or aezeed) that generated the seed phrase and the derivation path as was explained above.
You don't need to know anything else.

Is there a chance in future the bitcoin standard could evolve away from the 24-word BIP39 standard and my seed phrase could become inoperable to regenerate my private keys?

Unlikely but not impossible. You just have to keep up with the news. Even if the protocol changes, there will be lots of alerts and a lot of time to act on it.

My second question is what coins are not covered by the BIP39 pass phrase? I heard etherum isn't but uses another standard. Any others? Do most coins do so? Thanks in advance!

BIP39 and other alternative algorithms as I named them above, are a way to encode an initial entropy to human readable words and then derive a key from those words or the entropy. They only differ in details such as the cryptography algorithm they use.
The derived key can be used any way you like, for example you could derive a 256-bit key and use it for secp256k1 key aka bitcoin private key, or use it as secp256r1 key ethereum private key. Or you could even use it as a PGP key.

[bitboy23]

In addition to the phrase, you need the derivation paths of all of your accounts. Typically, you can look up the derivation paths that the wallet uses, so you don't absolutely need to record them. The derivation paths are important because different wallets may use different derivation paths. So, if you move to another wallet you may need to enter custom derivation paths instead of the default paths used by the wallet.

In what way would knowledge of which wallet a seed was generated on would effect recovery of the keys from the seed on another wallet? Say in 30 years time or some other long time period the wallet I generated my keys on was no longer available and all I kept was the seed. How recoverable are my keys? This thread began from me thinking about long-term storage of bitcoin without having to keep current on developments in the field. "Just keep your seed and forget about it" sort of thing.

Also what do you mean by "derivation paths?" How would that effect the recovery of keys from a seed?

[odolvlobo]

In addition to the phrase, you need the derivation paths of all of your accounts. Typically, you can look up the derivation paths that the wallet uses, so you don't absolutely need to record them. The derivation paths are important because different wallets may use different derivation paths. So, if you move to another wallet you may need to enter custom derivation paths instead of the default paths used by the wallet.

In what way would knowledge of which wallet a seed was generated on would effect recovery of the keys from the seed on another wallet? Say in 30 years time or some other long time period the wallet I generated my keys on was no longer available and all I kept was the seed. How recoverable are my keys? This thread began from me thinking about long-term storage of bitcoin without having to keep current on developments in the field. "Just keep your seed and forget about it" sort of thing.

Also what do you mean by "derivation paths?" How would that effect the recovery of keys from a seed?

The derivation path is used to specify how private keys are organized and generated, as described in BIP-32 and BIP-44. There are standard derivation paths, and most wallets use them, but a wallet is actually free to use whatever it wants.

30 years from now, if you create a wallet using your seed phrase and there are no bitcoins and no history, then the problem is either that you also need to enter a passphrase or the derivation path is wrong.

If you have the seed phrase but don't know the derivation path, you can probably look it up if you know the name of the wallet software, or perhaps you can even run the old wallet and see what it uses. Or, as a last resort you can use software that will search for any derivation paths that have coins on them.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0044

[Charles-Tim]

In what way would knowledge of which wallet a seed was generated on would effect recovery of the keys from the seed on another wallet?

The best is to know the type of wallet you are using. For standard BIP39, the derivation paths are: BIP32 (old), BIP44, BIP49 and BIP84.

BIP32: m/0'/0/0 for hierarchical deterministic (old)
BIP44: m/44'/0'/0'/0/0 for legacy
BIP49: m/49'/0'/0'/0/0 for nested segwit
BIP84: m/84'/0'/0'/0/0  for native segwit

What those above represent:
m’ / purpose’ / coin_type’ / account’ / change / address_index
The apostrophe (') means hardened, to know more about it, you can read this: Hardened and non-hardened derivation

Read more hear
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/derivation-paths
https://medium.com/mycrypto/wtf-is-a-derivation-path-c3493ca2eb52

For Electrum, segwit which is now the default derivation path is m/0'/0/. For address m/0'/0/0

I do not know if you may understand this I posted above, but they are the derivation path for standard BIP39 wallets and the second for Electrum wallet.

It is good to be careful of the seed phrase wallet you are using, making sure they follow the standard onee.

[bitboy23]

If you have the seed phrase but don't know the derivation path, you can probably look it up if you know the name of the wallet software, or perhaps you can even run the old wallet and see what it uses. Or, as a last resort you can use software that will search for any derivation paths that have coins on them.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0044

Derivation path = BIP number?

BIP32: m/0'/0/0 for hierarchical deterministic (old)
BIP44: m/44'/0'/0'/0/0 for legacy
BIP49: m/49'/0'/0'/0/0 for nested segwit
BIP84: m/84'/0'/0'/0/0  for native segwit

Or should I just write which of these is applicable below my seed?


For example, which of the below should I add to my "seed card":

https://wiki.trezor.io/Standard_derivation_paths

[Charles-Tim]

Derivation path = BIP number?

BIP means Bitcoin Improvement Proposal, which is a document meant for introducing new features to bitcoin. This is the list of Bitcoin Improvement Proposal (BIPs), you can see the ones used to introduce derivation path in HD wallets there.

Derivational path is used in hierarchical deterministic (HD) wallet in a way the wallet can be able to derive specific keys and addresses, first introduced in BIP32.

What I explained above in my previous post is derivation path, but the documents which were used to introduce them each individually and accepted is the BIP32, BIP44, BIP49 and BIP84. BIPs is beyond, you can check the list by click the above link to see more proposals that have been documented.

Or should I just write which of these is applicable below my seed?

Just make sure you use wallets that follow the BIP39 and the above derivational part, or use Electrum wallet. If you doubt about the derivation path a wallet is using, you can ask us here to tell you if the wallet is reputed or not.

[bitboy23]

If I use a Trezor One AFAIK the derivational path from the link at the bottom of my previous post is:

BIP44: m/44'/0'/0'/0/0

So I just write this below my seed words in my seed note?

[Charles-Tim]

Writing down the derivation path is highly not necessary, just use a reputed wallet that follows the standard derivation path.

So I just write this below my seed words in my seed note?

Trezor is a reputed wallet that follow the standard derivation path, you do not have to bother writing down the derivation path Trezor uses to generate you address.

The derivation path you post is for legacy address, address that start from one. From the link you post, you can see the derivation path for nested segwit (addresses start from 3) and native segwit (address starts from bc1).

So the derivation path depends on the type of address generated and you do not need to write the derivation path down. What is most important is to backup you seed phrase which will be needed for wallet recovery.

[witcher_sense]

Is there a chance in future the bitcoin standard could evolve away from the 24-word BIP39 standard and my seed phrase could become inoperable to regenerate my private keys?

Even if that ever happens, don't worry -- you won't lose access to your funds. As long as there are no hard forks in the bitcoin network, which could make things that work today unfunctional in the future, your private keys will still be able to unlock the coins you have obtained in the past. Your private keys are derived deterministically from your seed phrase; the process of derivation is described in certain standards. Everything about these standards is completely transparent, and all the code is free to download and implement into any wallet. Most wallets have already adopted these standards, it is extremely unlikely they will switch to something else in the foreseeable future. Even if they find a better way to organize wallets, the old code won't suddenly disappear, be forgotten, or be destroyed. You will always be able to find old versions of software that use BIP39 standards, and therefore you can always recreate your keys from your initial seed phrase.

Unlikely but not impossible. You just have to keep up with the news. Even if the protocol changes, there will be lots of alerts and a lot of time to act on it.

What I really like about bitcoin and is what differentiates bitcoin from shitcoin is that you don't need to keep up with the news to maintain access to your funds.

[bitboy23]

Even if that ever happens, don't worry -- you won't lose access to your funds. As long as there are no hard forks in the bitcoin network, which could make things that work today unfunctional in the future, your private keys will still be able to unlock the coins you have obtained in the past. Your private keys are derived deterministically from your seed phrase; the process of derivation is described in certain standards. Everything about these standards is completely transparent, and all the code is free to download and implement into any wallet. Most wallets have already adopted these standards, it is extremely unlikely they will switch to something else in the foreseeable future. Even if they find a better way to organize wallets, the old code won't suddenly disappear, be forgotten, or be destroyed. You will always be able to find old versions of software that use BIP39 standards, and therefore you can always recreate your keys from your initial seed phrase.

OK, that is very reassuring and what I was trying to get at in the OP. So the only thing I should conceivably worry about is a hard-fork of bitcoin which deprecates entirely the version compatible with BIP39 (admittedly a very, very unlikely, bordering on impossible, thought admittedly we can never say anything to 100%, scenario)?

Charles-Tim: Is there any value in writing down the name and firmware version of the wallet used to generate the keys from the seed words along side the seed or is that just overkill?


Edit: In all this I am thinking of the scenario of bequeathing my bitcoin to my grandchildren (not that I have any, just a scenario) many decades from now. If I leave them only my seed is this likely to be enough for them to recover my/their bitcoin whenever they desired? How much information would they likely need at a minimum?

[pooya87]

So the only thing I should conceivably worry about is a hard-fork of bitcoin which deprecates entirely the version compatible with BIP39

Not BIP39 because that is not part of the Bitcoin protocol, it is just a key derivation function that we use so it doesn't need any kind of fork to change. As I already said above, a change in Bitcoin itself, more specifically changing the Elliptic Curve cryptography that involves keys (their size, valid range, converting to pubkey, ...).

Is there any value in writing down the name and firmware version of the wallet used to generate the keys from the seed words along side the seed or is that just overkill?

It doesn't hurt to write down additional information, certain details may be gained by that.
For example Electrum mnemonic algorithm has changed at least twice in this project's lifetime.