Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[HideYourKeys]

I also printed a quick prototype, to check if everything fits.

Available for free download, if anybody wants to try it:

https://hideyourkeys.io/product/bitjig-lite/



I have also upgraded the design of the regular BitJig, for M6 and M8 washers, I made it a bit thinner and easier to grab:

[m2017]

The rubber will indeed absorb part of the kinetic energy from the hammer, which means there's less energy remaining to stamp a letter into the washer. The harder the surface under the washer, the better you can stamp.

Will the rubber from a tractor wheel be hard enough? I meant rubber of this type (firmness and elasticity), not soft. There is no need to cut a piece of rubber from the wheel of a tractor working at a nearby construction site , because can look for material with similar parameters in a hardware store (or in grandma’s pantry \ grandfather's workshop).

Wood is not bad, I am currently using a 4mm-thick small metal plate that I had. I place the BitJig on top of that, and then I place everything on the floor, or a plastic board (I could use the floor directly, but just to make sure that the nut does not make small marks on the floor).

Try placing a piece of rubber (with a balance of elasticity and hardness) between the wood and the floor and your floor will not be damaged.

Wow, you also have capsules (but you are silent about it ).

I just wanted to say that it’s high time you offered BitJig for sale, but it turns out that your website already has a “shop” tab.

And even prudently, it is possible to pay in bitcoin. Great.

This is an affordable alternative for those who don't have a 3D printer (who would buy 3D printer for the sake of printing only 1 Jig?).

[LoyceV]

Will the rubber from a tractor wheel be hard enough?

Based on physics, every bit of shock absorption makes the hammer less efficient. Just test it: if it works, it works. Or just hit the hammer a bit harder.

I place everything on the floor

If I wouldn't have a heavy vice, I'd use the edge of a table, right above the leg.

[Easteregg69]

I don't care. I would use a printer on a public network for back-up.

What is the next big thing that is gonna drive mods insane because they can't let it walk out the door?

You get rate limited if you try to spread joy. Make a paper wallet.

[larry_vw_1955]

storing a seed phrase with washers has very few benefits unless you think that youir house is going to burn down. but if you thought that you could just store a separate copy of your seed phrase ON PAPER in a bank deposit box or someplace else. if you ever have to travel and bring things with you then you might be screwed if the TSA needs to inspect that strange looking device with a bunch of washers on it that showed up in the x-ray machine because it is metal. they might think it is an explosive device or a silencer for a gun or maybe it is got cocaine in it. at the very least, they might take it apart and inspect it more closely and in doing so they will know your seed phrase. then they will ask you what it is. and if you tell them what it is then you just told them how to take all your money.

what someone thinks is a rock solid indestructible way to store their seed phrase could become a serious liability too.

[m2017]

storing a seed phrase with washers has very few benefits unless you think that youir house is going to burn down.

Fire protection is one of the reasons for using washers (washers made of refractory stainless steel - the melting point is higher, than in a fire).

but if you thought that you could just store a separate copy of your seed phrase ON PAPER in a bank deposit box or someplace else.

This is a completely bad decision to store the seed phrase (entirely) in a safe deposit box. The bank (their employees) are people who are strangers to you, but at the same time have access to your safe deposit box. If you store the seed phrase in a safe deposit box, then divide it into parts and in different banks.

if you ever have to travel and bring things with you then you might be screwed if the TSA needs to inspect that strange looking device with a bunch of washers on it that showed up in the x-ray machine because it is metal.

Firstly, washers is not for transportation with you to airports (but for long-term storage in one safe place). To do this, use hardware wallets.

Secondly, what’s stopping you from making seed washers on something other than metal (plastic, fiberglass, and anything else that can’t be detected by x-ray), if you want to carry it with you to different countries?

they might think it is an explosive device or a silencer for a gun or maybe it is got cocaine in it. at the very least, they might take it apart and inspect it more closely and in doing so they will know your seed phrase. then they will ask you what it is. and if you tell them what it is then you just told them how to take all your money.

Under these pretexts they can check the personal belongings of anyone, which makes the question “why carry seed washers with you?” even more relevant.

what someone thinks is a rock solid indestructible way to store their seed phrase could become a serious liability too.

There are no universal solutions to get rid of any problem. Seed washers is not intended to be carried and taken for X-rays at airports. Metal washers is a good and effective way to store seed phrases, but in a secluded place for many years.

Don't take washers with you on travel and everything will be fine.

[fillippone]

but if you thought that you could just store a separate copy of your seed phrase ON PAPER in a bank deposit box or someplace else.

This is a completely bad decision to store the seed phrase (entirely) in a safe deposit box. The bank (their employees) are people who are strangers to you, but at the same time have access to your safe deposit box. If you store the seed phrase in a safe deposit box, then divide it into parts and in different banks.

The bank doesn't have access to your safe deposit box.
They can access it only with an order from the judiciary power (an executive order by a judge).
They have materially no access to it (they need a blacksmith to open it, as they don't have your key).
This is the point of a safe deposit box.
Hopefully, you can prepare in advance for such an order.

[larry_vw_1955]

This is a completely bad decision to store the seed phrase (entirely) in a safe deposit box. The bank (their employees) are people who are strangers to you, but at the same time have access to your safe deposit box. If you store the seed phrase in a safe deposit box, then divide it into parts and in different banks.

i don't think they do have access to your safe deposit box. at least the one i saw it has 2 key holes and a key has to go into each one. one from the bank and one from you. and so they can't open it without you. it's not like mail boxes etc where they can reach in your box from the backside  

Firstly, washers is not for transportation...

that's what you say but what do you end up doing in an emergency? you grab your washers and take them with you right? like a house fire.

Secondly, what’s stopping you from making seed washers on something other than metal (plastic, fiberglass, and anything else that can’t be detected by x-ray), if you want to carry it with you to different countries?

the simple fact that all of your luggage can be searched at any port of entry that's what. they will stand there while you watch and go through every single thing in your handbag or luggage and ask you questions about anything they find while also asking you other things like what's the purpose of your trip and how are you supporting yourself but that's neither here nor there.

Under these pretexts they can check the personal belongings of anyone, which makes the question “why carry seed washers with you?” even more relevant.

because you didn't want to destroy something you worked so hard to make. unlike a simple piece of paper that you can just tear up...

Seed washers is not intended to be carried and taken for X-rays at airports.

well yeah I mean we all agree with that!

Metal washers is a good and effective way to store seed phrases, but in a secluded place for many years.

for many years where?

Don't take washers with you on travel and everything will be fine.

no it might not be. like if you move out of your house and forget to take the washers with you, you can't just exactly sneak back in there once someone new has moved in. and eventually it will be found since it cannot be destroyed. so you put yourself into a bad situation. or lets say you end up in the hospital where you can't go back home. but you need money to pay your medical bill so you have to tell someone where that washer device is so you can pay your bills. hopefully you trust them because if not they can steal your bitcoin. by reading the washers.


i'm not sure if you get it or not but consider this scenario: your house burns down while you're at work. you come home and the fire department is putting out the fire but you can't go back inside. but you HAVE to go back inside AT SOME POINT. even though they tell you not to. because you're worried that your little washer contraption is still in readable condition and you would hate for the fire department or some salvage crew to find it and take your bitcoin. so you literally have to sneak back in somehow and go searching through all the rubble to find that darn thing just so that someone else can't get it! you are in a terrible situation. the only option you have is to stop using that particular wallet, transfer all your funds out of it and create another one. but someone is going to find that thing and know alot about you for one that you are a hardcore bitcoin user and they'll be able to look up all your transactions on the blockchain from that wallet.

[HideYourKeys]

Try placing a piece of rubber (with a balance of elasticity and hardness) between the wood and the floor and your floor will not be damaged.

This is not a bad idea, so far it is working good with just wood

Wow, you also have capsules (but you are silent about it ).

Glad you noticed! There are also many other vases and pots where we can hide the washers, the capsules would be the most basic option

 I just wanted to say that it’s high time you offered BitJig for sale, but it turns out that your website already has a “shop” tab.

Yes, I would be a bit concerned if nobody noticed the shop  . I added a "bitcointalk" coupon for a 5% discount + another 5% discount when paying in bitcoin (in case somebody ever reads this thread   ).

This is an affordable alternative for those who don't have a 3D printer (who would buy 3D printer for the sake of printing only 1 Jig?).

This was the whole approach of the idea

-----------

i don't think they do have access to your safe deposit box. at least the one i saw it has 2 key holes and a key has to go into each one. one from the bank and one from you. and so they can't open it without you. it's not like mail boxes etc where they can reach in your box from the backside  

I would not feel safe with my seedphrase inside of a bank safe, depending on the country of course, but in some places it might be more risky than having them at home (and the fact that it has certain fixed monthly costs is also a drawback)

As fillippone said, washers are not for air transportation, imho, the washers approach is a good starting point compared to a piece of paper. There are better options, of course (for instance, memorizing them), but there is no perfect solution, each one has its flaws and advantages.

You could even disassemble a 12 washer set, mix some of them with coins and get them through the airport x-ray machine disguised as coins, but I would rather use a hardware wallet for air transportation.

The best solution would be either to keep the words in your mind, memorized, or some sort of digital puzzle which nobody else knows. But the washers is a good solution when combining them with a passphrase or a multisig solution.

[larry_vw_1955]

As fillippone said, washers are not for air transportation, imho, the washers approach is a good starting point compared to a piece of paper.

i'm not convinced it is a good starting point for storing a seed phrase. to me it seems like more of a liability. because it has to be destroyed at some point in the future. i think for the vast majority of people, storing it on a piece of paper is perfectly fine. then put that piece of paper inside some small metal container if you like to keep it protected...

people that go through this washers method it is a huge hassle. and they know it! but if that's what they want to do then it's interesting seeing their overkill behavior on full display  

oh and not every safe deposit box has a monthly fee...but i guess most of them do.

[LoyceV]

I would not feel safe with my seedphrase inside of a bank safe

Wasn't the Winklevoss' system to have parts of a multisig in different safe deposit boxes around the world? It'll take you 2 days by private jet, but you can feel reasonably safe that way

it has to be destroyed at some point in the future.

Why?

You should never delete a wallet.

But if you insist, it's not so difficult:

I'd say you can give the washers the same treatment as a hard drive: clamp it in a vice, get an angle grinder, and destroy the letters.
~
use different trash bins: one per week at home, one in the office. Hide it in something dirty like coffee grounds or diapers.

[m2017]

The bank doesn't have access to your safe deposit box.
They can access it only with an order from the judiciary power (an executive order by a judge).
They have materially no access to it (they need a blacksmith to open it, as they don't have your key).
This is the point of a safe deposit box.
Hopefully, you can prepare in advance for such an order.

March 2021. Third parties simply opened (hacked) 1,400 safe deposit boxes and took out everything they could get their hands on (The FBI took $86 million from safe deposit boxes. An appeals court will decide if that's constitutional). No matter how they convince me of the safety of storage in safe deposit boxes, I will say - NO. This applies to any service providers for the safe storage of money or other valuables - you give to third parties. Which means the actual transfer of ownership rights (unofficial), that is, you are deprived of your property for the period of provision of safe storage services to you.

If you search on the Internet (ru-local), you will find more than one case where deposits in safe deposit boxes were stolen. Without unauthorized hacking, therefore, bank employees had access.

What you described in the list must be observed, but in different countries the attitude towards laws is slightly different from those adopted in the world. Simply, a bank (or their employees) can easily rob their client. You can think otherwise, but numerous cases from life cannot be refuted. Facts are stubborn things.

i don't think they do have access to your safe deposit box. at least the one i saw it has 2 key holes and a key has to go into each one. one from the bank and one from you. and so they can't open it without you. it's not like mail boxes etc where they can reach in your box from the backside  

I don't undertake to judge how technically the theft of safe deposit boxes occurs, but by googling you will find out many interesting cases when clients of safe deposit boxes lost their savings.

that's what you say but what do you end up doing in an emergency? you grab your washers and take them with you right? like a house fire.

Washers is not for taking with you. Washers will withstand fire. Washers is when you put it down once and don’t touch it until absolutely necessary. Washers is a backup that you only access as a last resort. Therefore, it must be stored in such a way as to withstand most force majeure circumstances (fires, natural disasters, break-ins and thefts, etc.). Washers is your last chance to access your savings, and not a trinket in your pocket for traveling to different countries and daily access.

because you didn't want to destroy something you worked so hard to make. unlike a simple piece of paper that you can just tear up...

You are confusing the application / purpose of seed washers. This is for long-term storage (10-20-50 years), and paper is for short-term storage (1, 2, 5 years). If you are aware of the difference, then everything will fall into place in your understanding.

for many years where?

It's up to you to decide.

This should be a safe and secure place with sole access to you (or those with whom you are willing to share the content).

Yes, I would be a bit concerned if nobody noticed the shop  . I added a "bitcointalk" coupon for a 5% discount + another 5% discount when paying in bitcoin (in case somebody ever reads this thread   ).

That is, users (and readers) of the bitcointalk can receive a final discount of 10%?

If I were you, I would make a higher discount when paying for bitcoin, but only during a bearish trend.

You could even disassemble a 12 washer set, mix some of them with coins and get them through the airport x-ray machine disguised as coins, but I would rather use a hardware wallet for air transportation.

Will the next proposal come to put the seed phrase on coins (instead of washers) and carry it with you? Well, it’s a strong and refractory metal, thieves won’t take small change, customs officers don’t pay attention to coins - it’s just an ideal solution.

/sarcasm off

because it has to be destroyed at some point in the future.

For what?

The contents have been transferred to another wallet and there is no need to destroy the carrier of the seed-phrase.

And even if you have to do this, then it’s enough to use your resourcefulness power tools, and not drown the washers in hot metal, like the T-800.

If washer wallet is stored securely enough, it will never need to be destroyed.

[LoyceV]

You are confusing the application / purpose of seed washers. This is for long-term storage (10-20-50 years), and paper is for short-term storage (1, 2, 5 years). If you are aware of the difference, then everything will fall into place in your understanding.

I'd argue that, under normal circumstances, both last more than a lifetime. But indeed, metal feels tougher