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I am going to add a price tag for every item in that picture.
Prices may vary greatly, and it also depends on the kind of tools already available. My immediate guesstimate of all the material in the picture is in the region of 90 euros.


I strongly advice against local language of BIP39 word list. They are poorly supported and implemented.
Also I know words are uniquely identified by the first 4 words, but I think the time save is not comparable to the increased risk in case of data loss: what if I print only 4 words, and a strange accident damages 2 letters of every washer?so I deliberately decided to print all letters.

As I described in my thread, the jig costs less than 5€ in material and should be around 10€ to have it printed. I myself, had mallets aplenty and used a large hammer as stamping surface. I also had stamping letters, so I only had to buy the washers and screw for 4€ per backup in total.
The letters had cost me around 20 in the past, though I wouldn't count the cost of them since you have to buy them with any type of steel (plate) backup, where often the plate(s) alone with shipping cost $20+. Those don't require a jig, but you can also stamp washers without jig if you want an unattractive result. :P

I'm pretty sure that it's a requirement for any language's 'seed alphabet' that the words need to be uniquely identifiable by the first 4 letters.

Is it not better for this topic to sit in the Beginners & Help section of the forum?  The method of backing up a seed is crucial for any Bitcoin holder.  The more members see this, the more educated they HOPEFULLY are.

I have been having a lot of fun on my own creating seeds particularly to experiment with a specific method of backup and try destroying them later on.  Now, does anyone have any idea how to dispose of these washers?  Paper wallet disposal is easy, but what about steel?  The only ways I can think of is throwing away one washer at a time during a long trip on the road and melting the steel, which is safer and maybe better for the environment.  The latter is unless someone finds my washers a thousand years from now and I unintentionally created an amazing piece of Internet and Cryptocurrency history.

But for overly paranoid ones like me, throwing away one washer at a time could definitely come with consequences.  If you are being spied on, there is a chance someone will follow you and pick up your disposed washers one by one, exactly the same way you threw them away.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

If I wouldn't have read this is a phone number, I may have never guessed it. Adding a +country might help (but there's probably no "+" in the stamp set), or otherwise at least add the full word: "PHONE" or "PHONE NUMBER" (at the back).

If the phone number is intended to help out someone who doesn't know crypto, it might also be beneficial to add some washers with the name of the coins you (intend to) store using this seed phrase. That is of course annoying if you want to add another coin later, but it might save someone from having to search through hundreds of altcoins that could possibly be stored with that seed.

In my experience, hot glue sticks much better if you heat up the metal before applying the glue.

You could use the I key twice (rotate stamp by 90 degrees).

As Per Your request:

Cost Estimate for the complete setup:
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob250a54c8450670f1.jpeg

Washers (https://www.leroymerlin.it/prodotti/ferramenta/tasselli-viti-bulloni-chiodi/rondelle/rondella-piana-largastanders-8-4-24-mm-8-pezzi-82938236.html)+Screw (https://www.leroymerlin.it/prodotti/ferramenta/tasselli-viti-bulloni-chiodi/viti/vite-passo-metrico-testa-bombata-l-80-x-m8-mm-34141800.html)+ Bolt	EUR  3.00 (Sold By Weight)
BlockMit Jig (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=blockmit+jig&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)	free
n0nce Jig (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.msg58080870#msg58080870)	EUR 30.00
Sledgehammer (https://www.leroymerlin.it/prodotti/utensileria/utensili-manuali/martelli-e-scalpelli/mazzetta-kapriol-power-0-8-kg-30673993.html)	EUR 12.99
Anvil (https://www.leroymerlin.it/prodotti/utensileria/allestimento-officina-garage/morse-da-banco-e-incudini/incudine-in-ghisa-2-095-kg-31273956.html)	EUR 9.90
Stamps (https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B07GGTB5RT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)	EUR 28.79
Safety Labels 100x (https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B07GP14JB4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)	EUR  12.99
Container (https://www.amazon.it/Contenitore-portatile-sigillato-impermeabile-aromatiche/dp/B08JL9WCHW/ref=sr_1_12?__mk_it_IT=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=38I1WHVPSPDK1&keywords=contenitore%2Ba%2Bvite%2Balluminio%2Bimpermeabile&qid=1644854133&sprefix=contenitore%2Ba%2Bvite%2Balluminio%2Bimpermeabile%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-12&th=1)	EUR  15.27
Gloves (https://www.leroymerlin.it/prodotti/utensileria/antinfortunistica/guanti-da-lavoro/guanti-in-nylon-dexter-9-l-2-pezzi-82374397.html)	EUR  2.50
Duct Tape (https://www.amazon.it/Tesa-56490-00001-01-XP-Universale-Nastro/dp/B00CA36JUA/ref=sr_1_5?__mk_it_IT=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=39136FV3LVGQD&keywords=nastro%2Btesa%2Bnero%2Btelato&qid=1647178848&sprefix=nastro%2Btesa%2Bnero%2Btelato%2Caps%2C85&sr=8-5&th=1)	EUR 03.99
Microfiber Cloth  (https://www.amazon.it/UIHOL-Microfibra-lucidatura-Sbiadisce-Professionale/dp/B088KBC1NZ/ref=sr_1_37?__mk_it_IT=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=1SY9OG553A8PY&keywords=panno+microfibra&qid=1647178975&sprefix=panno+microfibra%2Caps%2C100&sr=8-37)	EUR 01.00
Hot Glue Gun (https://www.amazon.it/Einhell-4522170-TC-GG-Pistolla-Incollatrice/dp/B01MQQVK0F/ref=zg_bs_3120282031_7/262-1026513-5333727?pd_rd_i=B01MQQVK0F&psc=1)	EUR 09.50
Circle Stickers (https://www.amazon.com/AVERY-6738-Avery-Multiuse-Label/dp/B076HDM3XY/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=Circle+Stickers&qid=1647179679&sr=8-8)	EUR 00.90
Indelible Marker (https://www.amazon.it/Staedtler-348-9-BKD-Penna-Punte/dp/B003JYVABM/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=tratto%2Bpen%2Bfine%2Bindelebile&qid=1647179997&sr=8-12&th=1)	EUR 8.13
GRAND TOTAL	EUR 138.96

Well, this is actually more than I had expected.
It's true that a lot of materials are already in most houses, and a lot of materials could be replaced with cheaper ones, but I wanted to account everything (double jig included).
Also, buying a crypto steel, probably, you should also account an hammer or somewhere to punch letters...

Ah, luckily I hadn't necessity to use scissors, so they are in the picture, but I haven't used them.

I would think the easiest way would be to use a complex enough passphrase along with any seed phrase backed up on metal, and then move all your coins to a new wallet if you need to dispose of the back up. Then it is unlikely anyone would be able to brute force your wallet even if they obtained your discarded back up, and even if they do, you have only lost your privacy and not any coins.

The next easiest option would be to "write over" the seed phrase, so to speak - stamp every letter of the alphabet on top of every character already stamped on each washer. They will quickly become unreadable and therefore unrecoverable.

I am not sure I get the question right, as I wouldn’t never dispose any phrase with funds in it. As this is a trivial assumption m, I guess no one will ever embark the gargantuan security task to follow me everywhere I could toss a washer: down the toilet at home, at work and at a random stops on the motorway, where I would also toss other washers while crossing rivers, dumps or deserted lands.
I could also bury a washer here:


And another here:



And the last one here:


Plenty of possibilities.

That's what I did when I had messed up one washer.
I didn't want to even leak a single word of my seed to anyone going through my trash^(nobody), so I just hammered multiple random letters on top of the ones I had already stamped, then trashed the washer.

Distributing washers in various locations internationally would be statistically secure, but mathematically not. The probability of finding all washers would be less than winning the jackpot 100 times in a lifetime probably, but not zero. So as a lover of numbers, that wouldn't make me feel confident enough. I would prefer some sort of destruction.. ;D A welder could for example damage the washers to a large degree.

I still have a few washers I messed up stamping and I immediately wondered what I should do with them.  Welding is a good idea too.  And to fillippone, believe me or not I have not even thought about disposing of them in toilets or burying them in the ground, one washer every trip.

But being the freak that I am, I agree with n0nce.  Even if it is practically impossible to find even 4 of them, probably even 3 or 2 long as nobody sees you and follows the buried spot, it would drive me nuts knowing that the washers are not in my household anymore but sitting outside where anyone could pick them up with my seed still stamped onto them.

My idea of disposing of washers comes from the fear that someone finds my empty seed and gets to see and analyze the history of my coins.  Welding, throwing them away or burying them separately miles away each, stamping multiple letters to make the letters unrecognizable.  I love brainstorming.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

I'll repeat what I said in another thread just yesterday: I think we are bordering on the ridiculous here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.msg59513248#msg59513248).

The chance of somebody accidentally stumbling across, say, 20 of your washers (assuming the remaining 4 words could be brute forced) which you have disposed of in various places around a city is infinitesimal. Spread those across a state or a country, and the chance is essentially zero.

If we are considering a targeted attack, then what's the likelihood that someone who wants to steal your coins is going to know enough about you to know your system, know you are disposing of it, and follow your every move for weeks or even months to pick up every washer that you throw away, versus some other far easier and more direct attack?

Still, this is wholly unnecessary. Just stamp over them, make them unreadable, and throw them in your trash. Job done.

Putting a bunch of metal down your toilet sounds like a great way to get yourself an expensive plumbing bill.

Actually it's good point. Reducing chance of data loss is more important than saving time during setup.


I checked the specification[1] and looks like it's true for any language which use alphabet similar with English alphabet. But it's not applicable to CJK characters[2-4] which might use less than 4 character.

[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/bip-0039-wordlists.md (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/bip-0039-wordlists.md)
[2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/chinese_simplified.txt (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/chinese_simplified.txt)
[3] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/japanese.txt (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/japanese.txt)
[4] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/korean.txt (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/korean.txt)

I missed this question yesterday, but I'll respond anyway because it's fun :P
I'd say you can give the washers the same treatment as a hard drive: clamp it in a vice, get an angle grinder, and destroy the letters.

Don't do that, it'll just get stuck in the pipes very close to your toilet.

It becomes interesting when thousands of people are disposing of their washers. Even if you'd find them all, you still wouldn't be able to use them.

Even better if you use different trash bins: one per week at home, one in the office. Hide it in something dirty like coffee grounds or diapers.

I know! I said that, too:


But it's just a gut feeling thing, you know! ;D

I have another idea! Hang each washers on a weather balloon. They can fly round half the world before bursting and the washer falling down into the ocean or any random place.

@fillippone this is truly one amazing megapost and you even provided videos for lazy people (cool music but I expected something more Italian).
Can you please tell me about material that is used for making Hermetic container?
I have seen few of these before on aliexpress and ebay but I think most of them were cheap and made from aluminum if I remember correctly.
It would add to structural integrity a lot if this could also be made from stainless steel.

Exotic idea.
He could literally send his bitcoin to the moon or maybe even throw them in Etna one by one, I hear this volcano has been more active recently.
Just watch out not to burn yourself doing that fillippone.

Ah. Challenge accepted. Bear with me.

Regarding washers disposal, I think we can be satisfied with the more easy easy of disposal: dustbin, diapers, tossing into rivers… weather balloons, volcanoes and interplanetary ships might be a fun idea, but ultimately an overkill.


VVV while geothermal energy is good to generate bitcoin, no way fillippone is going to ditch precious sats in Earth mantel, irrespective of how much poetic it might look.

I see you are not impressed with my Etna suggestion :-[ but it would be so poetical you know, El Salvador is using their volcano for mining and you are using yours for destroying it... sort off.

Interesting way of storing the seed. I suppose stamping is better at remaining legible than say, etching it. If anyone got a hold of this, they'd still be able to use it right? Is there any additional thing that can be done to prevent that or at least make it harder for them to access?

What do you think of like doing a simple encoding of the passphrase so that it'll take longer for them to access the content?

I can think of a few things :D You could for instance use the washers to hang 400 kg of concrete from your ceiling. After all, you're dealing with construction material. That'll make it hard to steal.

I added a few suggestion that came out from the comments in the OP.
I also corrected some embarrassing typos (I love "tinkering", not "thinking"!)

Hopefully, more valuable content will continue to come!

No, I didn't added the Etna suggestion, yet.


Also your Italian videos are coming later.

The container is in a very light aluminium.
Not more structural stiffness is needed, as per Jameson Lopp test. (https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/safu-ninja/)
Also, in case of levate temperature, aluminium could be easily removed, without transforming the washers + case in an unmanageable blob of metal.

I know the cost section might put a lot of users off the idea of doing this, but ignore the total cost, because the total cost is likely not going to to be anywhere near that. Since, most of these items, people already have especially if they're a home owner. For example, I have millions of washers/screws (including the size required), I have a sledge, gloves, duct tape, hot glue gun, and a micro fibre cloth. That has already reduced the price by 35+ euros based on the OP's pricing. Although, I bet I have a tonne of other stuff in storage that can either be substituted to a degree or already have. For example, the stickers could potentially be substituted.

This is just going to draw more attention to yourself, since whoever is snooping in your bins, will now be asking why your feeding washers to your baby. Nah, but in all seriousness that's a good idea, even some of the lowly of thief's aren't going through diapers.

You could encode it if you really wanted too, but depending on your threat model could potentially be overkill. However, to answer your question if someone got their hands on the washers it contains the seed, so they would be able to use it just like anyone else. This basically protects against losing the seeds though various natural threats, for example fires, flooding to degradation of materials. Steel washers are decent at surviving most things, maybe not very high temperatures, but it really does depend on how you store them, hence the container suggested.

Although, if you've got into this much effort, it's probably safe to assume you also have at least some physical security in place to prevent prying eyes. The security labels are a good idea, but effectively if the container has been opened, and therefore the stickers have been torn, you can safely assume that its already been compromised. It's more of a warning that it has been compromised, that something that'll help you save it, if you get what I mean. It doesn't necessarily safeguard your seed.

Honestly, the raw material cost is nothing. 4€ for washers and a few euros for the stamp (you can skip that if in a pinch). Tools should be easily available in any household or can be borrowed by some friend without any weird questions.
All the other stuff like tube, stickers, hot glue etc. aren't needed, so while fillippone went total overkill, I think washers are actually the absolute cheapest way to get a steel wallet backup.

The letter stamps have to be purchased with any type of steel wallet product, except those where you slide the letters, but those aren't recommended since they fall out if the casing bends (e.g. under rubble). So I wouldn't really count them into the price, just like the hammer.

A stack of washers (especially larger ones) is extremely solid. I am sure you can even find it in a destroyed house and restore the backup.

I strongly, strongly advise against it. There's a saying that goes something like 'don't roll your own crypto'. There are various posts about it (https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/2202/lessons-learned-and-misconceptions-regarding-encryption-and-cryptology/2210#2210) online. In the context of Bitcoin seed backups it's not really because of security concerns, but more about doubts in people's ability to remember what they did one, two or 10 years ago to their seed. Something that seems trivial now (e.g. 'I swap every 4th word with every 5th word' or something), might be completely forgotten mere months later.

I recently ran into an issue where I knew I had a secondary wallet inside a hardware wallet, but couldn't remember how to access it. I knew it wasn't through passphrase and the software didn't show me a second wallet either. It turned out through trial and error, that that wallet used derivation paths to create multiple wallets (without using the standard passphrase feature) and I had completely forgotten about it. It was solved by 'creating' a new secondary wallet in the software (this information is stored on the PC and I had gotten a new one) and the funds were back. But you might not be so lucky with a stack of washers that you applied some random custom 'crypto' to multiple years ago.

This is exactly my understanding: I wanted to be crystal clear about all the costs, this is re reason why I put that section (apart of being asked this very question in the comments). I went for the "full package", but really, much of the things (even the container) are not necessary, ultimately.


Agree also on this.
Do not overcomplicate things. Keeping things as linear and simple as possibile is an intrinsic safety measure.

I heard horror stories of people putting HW Wallets (without backup) in a safe box in a bank, then losing the backup and now they forget the PIN. Nice way to lose millions in BTC. Why should you protect with a PIN an HW wallet in a safe box in a Bank? So you can add a layer of disaster!

Today I saw a tweet from @Alex Bosworth.

https://i.ibb.co/L8qq2bR/59534238.jpg (https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1503519338099183618?s=21)

Of course he’s referring to the derivation path.

How this could be addressed in our case?

The first solution would be of using the WIF standard, as suggested by Federico tenga in his article.


Another one it would be to use a common wallet to generate the seed, so that funds are stored in a well known derivation.

I didn’t explicitly mention derivation path as I didn’t want to mess up things. Maybe it’s better to state the obvious? “Don’t use any fancy wallet to generate the seed? I should include a derivation washers”? Might be unintelligible  by the person who should get the Satoshi?

If you use a non-standard derivation path, it doesn't hurt to hammer it into another washer. Or hammer the wallet name + version.

---

---

This makes me wonder if some people use a very high derivation path to avoid someone stealing their coins: if you use for instance m/44'/44'/1875626591'/0 and even if someone gets your seed words, I doubt they'll ever find your (shit)coins.

Adding a non standard derivation is adding a potential failure to the system.
So, I am stamping the correct derivation on a wahser: “1875626591“ to stick to your example.

What is the point of storing this strange derivation together with the seed? He who control the seed, controls the deviation also.

But what happens if the washer with the derivation get damaged? 4 numbers become unreadable, because there was a mechanical failure at the store. How are you going recover the funds?

So no increased security, but greater exposure to failures.

As I said, it’s like protecting an HW in a safe box with a PIN: counterproductive.

Oh nice, there is still hope for Etna special edition :D
Are you sure it's still 4€ in all places?
I heard $5 wrench attacked is now renamed to $10 wrench attack because of inflation and price increase ;)
Maybe it's good idea to stock up on steel washers as I am expecting price of metal to go up more in future, and you can always use them in real life.
I talked many times before and importance of derivation path especially if you are using hardware wallets with BIP39, some of them are totally different by default.
If you only use Bitcoin there is less chance of having issues in future, but add any other shitcoin and you could be having a lot of issues.
Best thing would be to add name of the wallet (also important if you used Electrum for seed generation) on one of the top washer.

€3,17 (https://www.toolstation.nl/carrosseriering/p20188) per 100! Or €6,10 (https://www.toolstation.nl/carrosseriering/p20189) to go a bit bigger. Or €3,83 (https://www.toolstation.nl/carrosseriering/p20426) if you settle for thinner rings. Cheap stuff :D

Another thought: how fun would it be to use euro coins to stamp seed words into? :D

You are pretty safe unless they are deliberately exposed to a furnace or similar. The melting point of stainless steel is well in excess of the temperatures reached in a house fire or similar.

There's no point storing them together, just as there is no point storing your passphrase alongside your seed phrase. But given that there are more possible derivation paths (by many orders of magnitude) than there are potential seed phrases, it could be used as a "surrogate" passphrase, so to speak, where an attacker would need to know your seed phrase and derivation path. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

Fun maybe, but a quick Wikipedia search tells me the alloys which make up these coins have a significantly lower melting point and tensile strength than stainless steel, so probably not recommended.

Yeah, easily. It was 4€ a few months ago at least, for the huge (and thick) 30mm washers I used and stainless steel screw & nut. So it's already 'inflation-adjusted' if you wish. Of course this means it would have been possible to do this for probably 2-3 bucks a few years ago! :D

Thanks for looking up some numbers; your place seems cheaper than mine. Maybe different material. But yeah; the idea is that a pack of 100 washers for <5€ can give you backups for as little as a few bucks each (e.g. if you use washers double-sided). It's supposed to be a cheap alternative to those steel seed plates, however in this and the other discussion thread we saw it even has lots of advantages other than price.

I love this! ;D Just the visualization of (ab)using one currency, reducing it to its material value to store another, much better currency, would really be a piece of art honestly!

Lol, we all follow the same twitter accounts!

https://i.ibb.co/ZWPLZWf/59536609.png (https://twitter.com/dmlayt/status/1503462611295215619?s=21)

Maybe it's good idea to stock up on steel washers as I am expecting price of metal to go up more in future, and you can always use them in real life.


Please, I talking about bitcoin only. I don't store shitcoins.
Also, even if I do all correctly, they are going to be worth zero anyway by the time I want to move them out of cold storage.

My third post in the forum:




Abusing Fiat money is art: I have a 100 trillion Zimbabwean dollar banknote hanging on my wall, and I am seriously mulling the idea of hanging also a few US dollars.

Stamping euros is a nice idea, but I would stick to something more resistant, both tho high temperature and to mechanical stress.

 

Initially I was thinking this is a bad idea but then I looked the content of euro coins ands they are made from at least 75% copper, and depending on banknote there are nickel and zinc in different percentage.
Now, copper has lower melting point than stainless steel but I still consider it a very good and cheap material alternative for bitcoin metal backup.
Note that some countries (with their own currencies) may be using different and lower percentage of copper in their banknotes.
Imagine one crazy thing... using silver coins instead of euro coins to increase value  :o

I am not following this account, but this is certainly trending in twitter for bitcoin related stuff ;)

I have something similar on my wall, as a daily reminder for real value of fiat currency papers.
  

First of all, amazing work on this thread fillippone. I can't even imagine how long that must have taken. Respect!

No offense to newbies, but most wouldn't be interested in securing their seed this way. We are still years away from people realizing the dangers of storing seeds in digital formats on your computer or cloud services. Some would probably not even understand what they are reading at all if they saw this thread.

Not necessarily. A good hardware wallet costs $100-200 these days. The fact that you have to spend a few hours to make it with your own two hands will put people off.

Thank you for the responses, decided against encoding the passphrase. I'm not even decent with cryptography (sometimes I do "encrypt" texts with tools like cryptii) and considering my history with passwords, I might indeed be unable to decode it properly. Once I do get large enough funds I'd follow the steps in this thread, maybe cover it "starlite" as well.

I just bought the basic stuff needed from my local hardware store.  The cost was way lower than what fillippone has paid for their items.

Got the stamps for $20.  Definitely not the best quality, but they do their job.  12 washers + 1 bolt + 1 nut for less than $1.  Sledgehammer for $10, anvil for $10.  That is $45 for one seed and for every additional seed I increase the total by around $1.

I, for one, consider all the rest to be extra.  And in my case, I already had one sledgehammer, an anvil, some safety labels and gloves in my storage room.  That means my costs would have been $21 had I not wanted to buy an additional sledgehammer and a smaller anvil.  140 EUR seems very expensive.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Very nice! Have fun stamping! The prices reflect roughly what I paid as well; $1 per backup means it's pretty cheap to introduce redundancy and / or multisig. Whereas buying 4, 5 'ultra special bitcoin seed plates' for $50 each would quickly get expensive. With this method, it'll be $5 instead.
Did you already print the jig / have it printed or do you intend not to use one? If there are any issues with the file please let me know. :)

I have faith in people being stingy enough, that they'd rather use their own two hands attempting something, than spend their own hard earned cash. Nah, but in all seriousness, most of these items are common household items, and therefore the final cost is less than a hardware wallet. As suggested too, you don't even need to own these items, you could potentially borrow them, without actually revealing what you intend on using them for.

Also, while a hardwallet can only be used for Bitcoin, and potentially altcoins depending on the one you get. This method could be used for acting as a physical password manager. You could effectively use this for storing any sensitive data you want, as long as you keep them relatively safe from physical attacks. The convenience is lost of a password manager, but I could see some people preferring the physical approach.

Even if its not storing passwords, secret keys for physical security keys come to mind. Since, its not really recommended to digitally store those, but in case of damage or loss of the security key, a physical way of backing them up like this could benefit.

So, when you do compare hardware wallets to this method, the convenience definitely lies with hardware wallets, the security of each could be debatable depending on how its handled, but the potential diversity that this method offers definitely beats any hardware wallet, for typically less money, and a little bit of your time.

Perfect!
I bought my stamps on Amazon as my local hardware store didn’t sell any.
Regarding the total money spent, you are right. I bought all the possible item to show the “worst case”, but you were right spending the least possible amount of money!
Do not forget to let us know how you got your jig and of course take some picture of the whole process!

After reading this thread, I came up with the idea to simplify jig. Undoubtedly, n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.0) is convenient and useful, but there may be cases when there is no time to search or create jig. In this case, my downgrade (because the design is simplified as much as possible) can perform its function as a template for stuffing letters just as well.

Making. Minimalism at its finest.
1) Take the washer, apply it to the cardboard and trace it with a pencil along the outer and inner circles.

2)  After cut it out it will turn out something like this.

3) Apply the stamp with the back side (or something with the right size) and draw around the contour with a pencil. In 2 places. Choose an interval of your choice (this will allow to have equal spacing between letters). Cut out a hole in the shape of a stamp.

4) Glue small circles, large circles, and then large ones with small ones.


Usage. Even a child can handle it.
1) Insert stencil with a small circle into the hole in the washer. The picture is a rear view.

2) Put the stamp in a square cutout and beat with a hammer. We get a letter. (In my case, the letters are marked with a marker due to the lack of stamps).

3) Turn our template counterclockwise until the 1st embossed letter appears in the left square cutout. Align the position and again beat with a stamp in the 2nd empty field.

4) Repeat as many times as needed.

Nuances.
If there are difficulties with fixing the position of the stamp on the template, then you can use several layers of a large circle (gluing them) and / or using thicker cardboard (thin is easier to cut into shape).

Advantages.
Making from improvised materials, such as cardboard, glue, pencil, stationery knife and scissors. All this can be easily found in almost every home or bought at the nearest store for pennies.

Cheap. Fast. Easily. 100% anonymity (who would ever think to ask what these tools and materials are for?).

You can make a similar stencil on a 3D printer with variations to your choice.

In fact, my version is the inside of n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.0).

I apologize for the quality of product, but I hope the idea was clear and useful to you are.

P.S. Sellers are surprised by the sudden demand and hype for washers. They say they are expected to be in short supply. :)

Wow, good job! I really like this idea.

I was about to say: One layer will be suboptimal, because (you'll notice this when you try with real stamps), you tend not to hold the letter perfectly straight without a jig, resulting in letters being deeper at the top than at the bottom for instance.
I've got an example picture here, and it's even harder with larger letters:
https://i.postimg.cc/mkSV2Qfq/image.png
However, if you were to cut out like 10 of those disks and glue them together, it might hold the stamp straight enough (or help you hold it straight, since the cardboard would be easier to bend by hammering than bending the plastic).

In general it has to be tried out if there are any forces that apply to the jig which can't be taken up by cardboard, but if alignment is enough, it should work well, honestly!

Another option that is cheap and quick to manufacture (if you have the tool) is laser-cutting. Multiple layers of plywood glued together should work really well. And would give the lateral stability that I don't yet fully trust in when using cardboard.

I'm already heavily invested in the washer market! All these posts I'm writing are pure market manipulation. ;)

The main difference I believe, is that re-stamping is hard without notches. I had to do it since my material was quite hard, the table I used was quite soft (absorbed a lot of the impact), and my letters are pretty large - so imprints weren't always deep enough for my taste.

So out of the 3 benefits of my jig, with more cardboard disks this should check all boxes but one (3):
1) Equal letter spacing (looks nicer)
2) Holding the stamp straight, giving a uniform letter (readability)
3) 'Re-stampability' (readability)

I can think of great ways to store seed phrases in steel plates with laser cutting, but I wouldn't assume it's cheap.
Example:
https://www.metaltags.com/assets/images/content/laser_cut_metal_1_1.jpg

I could also think of a very nice storage design if you happen to have a CNC cutting machine. But even if you have access to very cool hardware, it brings the problem of wiping it's memory. That makes a pen or letter punch is much safer by default.

Sorry, I meant creating the tool with a laser cutter. :) A small 30W laser cutter should be available for around $200, so it might even be cheaper than buying a 3D printer. But of course you can only do plywood cutting and cardboard with those weak diode lasers. In a pinch though, it would allow you to make a few disks and glue them together. In fact, even the original 'full stamp' design should be laser-cuttable in multiple layers with minor modifications.

As you mentioned, this would still circumvent the issue of not wanting to have the seed phrase in any sort of encoding on any sort of electronic device.

Of course, you can't help but like this idea, since it's basically your idea. ;) I just simplified it and slightly changed it, making it accessible even to a schoolboy.

Yes, I assumed that the layer in my case is too thin and in real use with a stamp, a thicker thickness is needed. This is a kind of prototype, which aims to show the general concept and requires further development for practical use.

Yes, in my case there are few sheets of cardboard. More is needed to better fix the stamp.  I think the optimal thickness will be ~ 5-10 mm.

Oh yeah, laser. How did it not occur to me. Can even cut a template out of plywood and it will be durable and regular in shape.

Well, I didn't assume otherwise and was sure that there was a vested interest here. :)

How about using washers from another metal? Softer, for example, aluminum. This metal is not subject to corrosion due to the oxide film, which is quite resistant to weathering. The melting point is also not very low. But the main advantage is ease and pliability in processing.

You misunderstood. A laser can be used to make a template. For example, from plywood, something like here.
The perfect place to store seed-phrase, right? Ok, at least cute for sure. :)

Wood will be stronger than cardboard and hold its shape well, almost like plastic. Also, the laser burns out the edges of the plywood, which strengthens the wood in these places. So, I think the strength is quite high (in theory).

Can order along with the details for the template and other elements, so as not to raise questions, why do you need this product. Lose them among other elements. Something like bitcoin-mixer. No one will guess why you need a few circles in a common pile of details. And already at home you can glue them (as in my post with cardboard) or fasten them with bolts (or other ways ) and apply them to your needs.

While I was writing the answer to LoyceV, you already outstripped me with an explanation.

The laser can't cut plastic from a piece, can't it? And how about engraving washers with this laser? Engraving depth not enough?

I would still do a few and glue them together though, to keep the stamp from wobbling around.

Yeah, on one hand steel backups are way more popular since it's less easy to bend e.g. if a house were to burn down and it's crushed. On the other hand, those are usually single sheets of steel, while this method gives you a compact, solid cylinder of metal that should be a lot harder to bend, even if the material itself was as soft as aluminium.
Only other reason against it could be price, but it does sound like a good substitute for a better result and less corrosion risk!

I like this idea. You really think outside the box. :D Make the circle part of some other design (such as the box you've shown) and trash the rest once you receive it. Nice!

It cannot, it would melt! Though if you have a CO2 laser, you can cut certain types of acrylic sheets. Engraving metal also requires one of the more expensive CO2-based laser cutters.

But why? Why would you use a laser cutter for plywood, and not a drill, chisel or jigsaw? What happened to old-fashioned DIY woodworking?

Or both: one steel and one aluminum backup, so you get the benefits from both materials while mitigating the drawbacks.

Interesting little project, but this looks like a cheap alternative that is more time consuming to make, and it's inferior to engraving procedure in many ways, and using glue and markers means that it can easily be removed with some liquids.

This is terrible idea!
Never use aluminum in any way for storing seed words... you can see Jameson Lopp test with some metal backups made partially from this metal.
It can be distorted much easier and it melt's on much lower temperature than stainless steel or copper, especially if it's some cheap alloy it can be even lower.
Someone said that you can easily avoid corrosion for stainless steel with industrial fat or even with paint, if you worry about that (I wouldn't if stored properly).
For comparison, it can have almost three times lower melting point compared to cheap washers made from stainless steel:

Aluminum 1220 F  or 660 C
Aluminum Alloys 865-1240 F  or 463-671 C
Copper 1983 F  or 1084 C
Stainless Steel  2750 F  or 1510 C

Few days ago I saw in my local shop they are selling cheap engraving tool that works on Li-ion batteries and it comes with several templates made from letters, numbers and shapes.
This can easily be used to make custom metal backup for bitcoin, but templates and tip is bigger than washers, so I would need to buy bigger washers, or use metal plates.
Engraving tool I saw works on all surfaces like wood, plastic, stone and metal, nut I am not sure how it will work on stainless steel yet.
Here is one video of one similar tool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_tq8ixXmLM

Most likely, yes, it will be better that way. Need to test this and choose the most optimal solution.

Together with the outer capsule, the strength should be acceptable. Also, you can use a capsule made of a more durable material (steel or stainless steel).

This is not just a box, but a safe with a combination lock for storing your washers capsule or paper seed-phrase (no one is responsible for safety).  ;D

Can add a few elements you need to such a drawing and give it to any company on order (to cut parts with a laser), even if you have it across the road. No one will guess about the extra elements, unless of course they read this topic. :)

Yes, that's right, it was conceived as a cheap alternative that is simple and quick to make. It will not take so much time to make: draw a shape, cut it out of cardboard, glue it - that's all.

Oh no, no. You didn't quite understand my idea. I used a marker (for clarity) only because I don't have stamps (I wrote about this above). According to my idea, stamps should be used instead of a marker, as in n0nce's project (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.0).

Ok. If Jameson is against aluminum :), then can replace it with any metal, be it copper, stainless steel, brass - which has high corrosion resistance, high melting point and strength. The catch may be that it will not be easy to find washers made of any metal.

My alternative to washers: cut out a polygon from a sheet of metal (metal and thickness of your choice).  For example, a hexagon (I assume that a hexagon will be quite enough). The number of polygons will depend on the degree of your laziness, because you have to cut it yourself.  ;) Then drill a hole in the center. You will get a low-poly analogue of a washer. Using a hand-held power tool (drill, dremel), there should be no problems with making. I hope LoyceV will approve my proposal with an idea old-fashioned DIY woodworking metall.  


Advantages: The ability to customize for any size of the "washer", holes (can choose a bolt with a smaller diameter), and most importantly, ample opportunities with the choice of metal (can even make it from gold :)).

Disadvantages: The need for power tools and the skills to use them. You can compensate for all this by "outsourcing" the production.

Using an engraver is also an effective idea. Then don't need a jig at all (instead of stamps), but you can use my little project as a stencil for drawing letters evenly. First, you can draw the letters with a marker (do exactly the same as in my 1st post in this thread), and then just go over the inscription with an engraver.

You can make your own template out of cardboard or plywood with the right size for pucks, for example. Also, look at well-known chinese stores, where you can find smaller tips.

I'm sure it will work the same way. After all, that's what he was made for.

I don't know what you mean exactly...because most washers are made from stainless steel and it has even better corrosion resistance than aluminum.
Aluminum in normal conditions have good corrosion resistance and will not rust, but if any acidic or base liquid is added it corrodes rapidly resulting in catastrophic failure.
This means that stainless steel is almost perfect for seed storage, and only other metal that would be better is titanium, that is much more expensive.

This is just to much complicated for average human being, cutting metal is not very easy to do especially stainless steel, and will most likely result is cutting accidents and spilled blood, if not done correctly.
I am saying don't invent warm water all over again, just use washers or plates and don't overthink it.

Why a hexagon, and not just squares? Even easier: don't cut at all, just take some sheet metal, and start hammering:
01 ABANDON
02 ABILITY
.......
24 ABLE
Then fold the metal, and store it. No need to drill and use a bolt.

Cutting it is easy, making it look good is the difficult part ;)

Did you actually ever tried cutting stainless steel metal?
I did cut various metals before in my life but it was never stainless steel  so I can't really say more about it.
Most people would create very sharp edges that are begging for blood from fingers, and I have seen people cut themselves many times even on paper :)
You would need to have proper tools depending on how thick metal is, and it's not good if metal is to thin.
Video showing cutting of stainless steel sheet metal with angle grinder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO7sX9MixV0

Of course :) And indeed with a 1 mm INOX cutting disk (as mentioned in your video). It cuts through steel like a warm knife through butter.

Cleaning the edges is indeed more work than the actual cutting.

The real danger is when a cutting disk breaks and spreads high velocity fragments:
https://external-preview.redd.it/qVMDLhaXQN8Vd9UI6d5fDswF396ZNv3B2rPwg3OYGso.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=9690f4ae2d548a62c3f4c4c7546ba154c4eee86d

I don't dispute the superiority of stainless steel over aluminum in terms of corrosion resistance and strength, but stainless steel is less machinable (although this is affected by the thickness of the metal). For example, stamping on aluminum is easier and the depth of the letters will be deeper, and hence the legibility of the text. That's the reason why I suggested aluminum.

Each metal has its own characteristics. Based on this, everyone can choose with the characteristics necessary for him and under his own specific conditions. For additional protection, can paint after all, right.

It seems that someone has already mentioned this, but why not use several variants of storage from different metals? That is, duplicate text on 2 or more types of metal.

Washers are good - no doubt. There is no universal solution, and therefore, which of the methods to use, we will leave it to everyone to decide personally. Below is the text why I still tried to invent warm water.

The hexagon (or other polygon) was chosen because this shape is more like a circle and will fit in the cylindrical capsule suggested by n0nce. After all, we are still discussing in the topic where washers + capsule are used for storage.

You can also make a square shape, but then need a square-shaped capsule or other case. This is the case if you cut plates. It will have to be stored in something or fastened together so as not to get lost.

In principle, the hole in the center can be abandoned if the hexagons are still stored in the capsule. Just need to fix them tightly inside. For example, pour or compact something. Of course, so that later you can extract.

As a reminder, the hexagon was chosen to expand the range of metals (and not be limited to stainless steel or aluminum washers) that can be used to store seed-phrase.

The option with a sheet of metal is also good, but in this case the surface area will be larger (folding the metal foxes like a sheet of paper will not work). I like the capsule puck idea because it makes the storage compact.

This is not a competition for the most beautiful seed storage, but a way to save important information. The main function is safety and readability, and everything else is secondary. Imho.

I hope I was able to explain the reasons for my proposed ideas.

To avoid injury,can use the services of those who know how to process metal. It is unlikely that anyone will be surprised to cut out hexagons or squares from a sheet of metal. When asked what it is for, it can always be explained by the creation of components for a hobby.

Why though? It just takes much longer, needs a lot higher-end tools and provides zero benefits. Washers are already super inconspicuous to buy, readily available, they exist in any size and the jig can also adapted to any size of washer with my code. I don't see anyone doing this honestly.
Washers also do exist in enough types of materials. From the top of my head: aluminium, steel, stainless steel. Stainless steel is fine enough to stamp; what I said before was mostly a side note (about sometimes not stamping deep enough).

The advantage of washers over sheet metal is that it should be easier and cheaper to get and with the jig it gives you a quick and nice result. It's also more compact and I'd argue it should be easier to find in rubble.

Guys, the whole point of the experiment is grasping the beauty of the simplicity of the design.
A few washers, a nut and a bolt. That's it.
Maybe a fancy aluminum container, just because.
Stop it.

Tamper seals and everything is not necessary.
Do not overcomplicate things.

Less is more.

As I said in OP, the method used to secure your own phrase should be carefully selected.
On this topic, a. very interesting read by Jameson Lopp:

How to Back Up a Seed Phrase (https://blog.lopp.net/how-to-back-up-a-seed-phrase/)

Mamma mia!
I have to say Jameson Lopp always have some new interesting articles and materials for reading.
Most important thing for using any solution for backing up your seed phrase is to Test Your Backup.

On topic of Seed Words backup I am posting one VIDEO (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi0TRyVqHG8) Comparison of Best Metal Seed Phrase Storage solutions based on Jameson Lopp testing.
This guy even made nice spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1poBdHCVrd5eErAWySjSBoKh2f_6VCHsy3ForvL8JCRE/edit#gid=197446072) with most currently available devices, so you can consider it addition to original work made by Jameson Lopp.

I also saw one more stainless seed plate (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5323755.0) made by our forum member willi9974 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=216582), and I think he is sending that plate for new round of Lopp testing.

https://i.ibb.co/Qjg9btw/imge9f6c91c64eced61ede14ec7ecf65221.gif

If anyone in the United Kingdom wants to buy a Blockmit jig (though I believe mine is better due to the ability to customize it! ;)) I just found out this 13 year old kid runs a 3D printing Bitcoin shop over there and has the jig in stock for £5.00 which is a pretty solid price in my opinion.

https://robotechy.com/
https://i.postimg.cc/hPMf9zRg/image.png

I'm sure you could also send him a customized STL file of my jig and he'd print it for a similar price.
Not affiliated, just giving a shout out to a young entrepreneur!^{(I'm sure there are parents in the background to help him, but still I support it when children do something useful with their time)}

Wow... I have to say that I am impressed with this kid!
He is 13 years old and he already have his own website, and he is selling 3d printed stuff, SeedSigner, Raspberyy Pi Zero (in stock!) and he is accepting both Bitcoin and Lightning payments!
Even if you don't live in United Kingdom you can order from that website if you live anywhere in Europe or anywhere lese in the world.
He is learning programing languages for Bitcoin, and one more interesting thing is that his sister (sheis seven years old btw), want's to start her own Bitcoin only store, according to one of his tweets @IsaacWeeks  :o

Yesterday I wrote in topic stainless seed plate (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5323755.0) and came to the conclusion that it should have been posted here. Which is exactly what I'm going to do now.


I decided to add visibility to my yesterday's idea and refine it a little, diluting it with my comments on this matter.

I took the already known washers (the most common metal ones, not inox), a couple of nuts and a threaded rod. You can vary set according to their availability in your toolbox or store.

With this mini-experiment, I want to clearly show that 4 words can be applied to 1 washer. 2 on one side and 2 on the back. If reduce the number of letters to 4 (this is enough to identify the desired right word and restore seed-phrase). There is still space for numbering the puck so as not to make a mistake with the word order.


In principle, if you use slightly larger washers, you can fit more symbols.


In order to place 24 words (the first 4 letters), 7 washers will be enough. On 5 washers , apply 4 words, and on 2 washers, only 2 words on one side for each (when assembling the storage, place these 2 washers on 2 sides, clean sides out). This will hide the image.

Also, nothing prevents you from combining 2-3-4 seed phrases into one construction, this will be 12-18-24 washers.

Now about my symbols in the pictures. These are arbitrary symbols to show their legibility, applied with a regular screwdriver (hard alloy is needed). As I said, the thickness of the washers is 3 mm, and this allows you to apply text on both sides. There are no dents or marks on the back side. This can be seen in the pictures above.

I would like to add that I don't invent what was invented by fillippone, but only slightly modernized in order to make the storage more compact.

On first thought, I really like the idea; it allows to have more compact backups and even combine two backups on one screw.
However, I personally always value legibility over size / anything else. This also applies to stuff like custom crypto (shuffling words, ...) or super strong passphrases. That's because I am convinced the risk of losing funds due to unrecoverable backups is much higher than losing funds by being attacked.
In this context, I think paying a few cents more and getting enough hardware to write down all words in full, is definitely going to be worth it.

For instance, you will need to either number (but that takes up more space) every 4-letter 'word slice' or you'll have to remember / mark somehow for each washer which is the first, second, third and fourth word. If you do it like myself or fillippone, you will have one word per side and one number per side, so it's easy and clear to read.

Keep in mind that these backups are supposed to withstand extreme conditions, under which a letter may become indecipherable. In such a situation, you'll be happy that you wrote down more than the minimum required 4 letters per word. ;)

It could be viable as a secondary backup, especially for being able to store a few wallets' seeds in one small convenient location, with separate, 'full backups' somewhere else. Like, if you have to move somewhere for a while or something, I get it that carrying multiple of my backups will quickly get heavy.

Fully agree with the above statement.
There is no point saving a few centimeter printing both side of the washers, risking that any mishap to the backup make the seed unreadable.
I prefer reliability over convenience, in this specific case.

I've also been thinking about employing this technique for other non related Bitcoin things, such as passwords, obviously randomly generated passwords. Might be more secure than a password manager since the weakness there is your master password, and hardware key if you've got one. The thing is the capsule is much easier to disguise, and doesn't initially scream like your hiding something, although I can also think of other ways of concealing washers quite innocently.

Nice one, pretty decent price considering that there's not much of a competing market out there. Might just get one to support him also. Its nice to see someone get into this niche at such a young age, obviously I'm assuming there is some sort of parental guidance going on.

That's why I prefer to have 2 different backup systems in place for the same data. I do of course test both systems independently, to see if I can recover them (before funding).

I couldn't help but smile at the thought of going somewhere, suffering under the load of all your Bitcoin backups :D

Each of us can pursue different goals, and in this case, for some, legibility /readability will be important, for others, compact storage. The choice of method for preserving a seed-pharse
 will depend on the goals pursued by each individual.

I understand your concerns about the possible loss of backup data and therefore I suggest that need to make several copies of it.

I mentioned this above, but thanks for expanding my vision with your comment.

I don't think that extreme conditions will affect the readability of the text, because the washers fit snugly together and the construction looks solid and reliable. You need to make a lot of effort and pursue the specific goal of spoiling the text in order to be able to do this.

I'm also more inclined towards having a duplicate of the same seed-pharse and stored in completely different locations. The short version of the text is in easy and immediate accessibility, the full version is in a safe and hard-to-reach place.


Your point of view is clear. But you can't help but agree that putting text on both sides of the washer will not affect the quality and safety of the seed-phrase in any way. Because the thickness of the washer allows to apply text in this way without any damage, and this will positively affect compactness. Noticeable advantage.


Any important information (the text is easily divided into numbered washers) can be stored using such storage. Ways to hide washerss are only limited by the man's imagination. For example, you can use washers for its intended purpose (assembly of products, structures or decorative elements) by putting text on the inside. Who would ever think to check every detail that caught their eye, what is on its inside?

It's not like you are going to drastically reduce size by doing this experiment, and you are increasing chances of mixing up correct ordering of words that could lead to losing of your funds.
Stainless steel washers are dirt cheap, you can buy them anywhere in your local areas, so reducing cost is not appealing enough for me to do this.

When you are talking about extreme weather conditions, I don't know if you know this but 304 stainless steel can easily be corrupted if exposed to salt water, so if you are living in area near sea water I would opt out for better 316 stainless steel.
I am not sure if Jameson Lopp did any tests with salt water, but I believe that is much more realistic threat for some parts of the world compared to acid exposure.

Not all stainless steel is made the same, there are different types and grades, so while 316 SS is better for salt water it does have slightly lower melting point compared to 304 SS:

Grade 304 melting points: 1400-1450°C (2552-2642°F)
Grade 316 melting points: 1375-1400°C (2507-2552°F)
Grade 430 melting points: 1425-1510°C (2597-2750°F)
Grade 434 melting points: 1426-1510°C (2600-2750°F)
Grade 410 melting points: 1480-1530°C (2696-2786°F)
Grade 420 melting points: 1450-1510°C (2642-2750°F)

Pick 304 if you want high temperature resistance, or pick 316 if you want high corrosion resistance.

That's always great; any sort of redundancy is really mandatory.

Something like this?

https://i.postimg.cc/gcvdptRd/image.png

Thank you so much for looking this up; I originally went for a cheap SS that I had in my local hardware store, but I'll add this to my topic so everyone can buy according to their needs. I would agree that exposure to salt water seems like a relatively likely scenario in many places of the world, so it's well worth considering.

For most people you would assume high temperature resistance would be preferable. I imagine most ways that people store this won't be at risk of coming into contact with corrosive substances. However, a house fire is much more likely. House fires might not be enough, but I guess it depends on the specific circumstances of how its stored. For example, storing your backup in your garage which has a ton of fuel around could increase the risk.

I will say one thing though that its time to put on your tin foil hats. Don't store your washers in your kitchen cupboard that has anything with chlorine in it :D. Chlorine will eat away at your stainless steel as its particularly vulnerable to it. It's worth mentioning that your tap water could potentially have low levels of chlorine in it, so if you have a pipe that could be dripping onto them for a while, obviously depending on how you store them, over time you might have a issue. Though, drinking water is usually has a very low concentration of cl2. Although, some places might be more than others. 1-2 parts per million could potentially give you that corrosion over time, and that's obviously ignoring the damage the water could do itself. Anyway, that's my tin foil rant over.

The point I was trying to make wasn't that chlorine in particular is a problem, but rather don't store your washers in random places in the house that have corrosive substances near them. For example, not everyone wants to put them in a capsule, and not everyone wants to store them together. So, they might opt to place them all around the place, to make them look quite innocent to anyone looking through your house. For example, a thief isn't going to even look at a washer that might be in your kitchen cupboard or your garage.

To me, 304 is going to be the one that makes the most sense for most people.

I slightly edited the OP to correct some repetitions, typos and other horrible errors.
Thank you, @gazetabitcoin, for helping me sort out that monstrosity and making my posts even better.

In any learning, understanding the author's mind is the most important aspect of the book or in the reading process. Especially when the content is not familiar with the specific field of your study or the content in the context. From the OP's analysis of the , it was not easy for me to understand. I read the article for about 2 times before really getting the real message of the author. And I have understood it to the core.

First of all, I really appreciate your effort of getting the washer to secure your seed phrase. It is one of the best Wallet security apparatus I have seen. I was planning to get it in my locality but what I have is different. And the printing process is stressful. It takes days to complete the process though it all depends on the printer.

These are the most important objects of the printing. Heating the printing stamps and the hitting the anvil needs very hot oven or light to do that.

I got it from a welder in my location.
https://i.imgur.com/Xypg7SY.png

I don’t know if I understand right, but both anvil and stamp don’t need to be heated for stamping. All tre process is done with cold instruments.
I would have told you to do so.
Also, your washers look quite different from the one I used. I never saw a washer with borders. Are you sure are you using the right tool?

It sounds like you're trying to write a school essay.

Those are dumbbell discs. And they're big enough to stamp all your seed words at once.

Ohhh no no no no - if I didn't know your handle, I'd assume your post to be sarcastic.
I think you totally overestimated the size of what we call 'washers'. What fillippone and I are using are small metal discs, between 20 and 30mm in diameter and 2-3mm thick. They are cheap to procure, easy to stamp and compact to store and conceal.

How do you plan on hiding seed words stamped on actual barbell weights? I also assume they're pretty expensive to the washer backups we're talking about here.

I am wondering how wasn’t clear what a washer is and how bit it is.
 I also wrote in the article the actual size.
To be honest those look quite similar to barbell weights, but isn’t a bold the object peeking in the bottom right of the picture? Is that a giant bolt?

In addition to that, what is the oven story?

Probably the actual barbell. Everything in the picture looks like barbell parts.
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/299b7338-2cc8-467c-9ff2-1137f59706d4.6d34db81d2e64ed15a7a8de3f6266eb0.jpeg

He probably had to heat the tools to be able to dent the barbell weights' surface. But I'd really like to see how the words look like; even if it's a single letter.

I have seen those “strongest man” competition where you are supposed to lift spherical stones,  turn gigantic tires or stuff like that. News year the prize will be awarded to who will be able to print a seed phrase on those barbell weights!

That's the idea. They will start the competition from easy 6 word seeds, then average 12 word seeds and at the end the most difficult seeds 24 words.
Additionally there may be one more task - Tower of Hanoi build from seeds.

Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers takes it to the next level. This also has its advantages: thieves will definitely not steal your seed phrase, because they simply can't carry it away. :) Sorry, I couldn't resist saying that.

Oh yeah, what would be the total weight of the vault if you wrote one word for each washer dumbbell disc?

This picture sparkled with new colors in this context? :)


I hope that this was a joke from Agbe, because in this thread the dimensions of washers were discussed many times, which in no way could be confused with dumbbell discs.

Theoretically, if Agbe so desires, let him use GYM discs to store seed phrase. He just needs to figure out a way to hide what he wrote and Agbea can be awarded a prize for the most original way of storing seed phrase. Personally, on my own behalf, I award him merit. He deserved it. :)


This is easily done with a dremel or laser engraving. Agbe shouldn't have any problems with the laser, because he has already found welder. Sorry again. This story still makes me smile.

I smile sir. Sir please don't be confused. Although I did not explain the irons well for easy understanding. I was trying to give example of my understanding of your thread that, I got a similar disk from a welder. I Know for sure that they are not washers but washer look alike. And also they are bigger than washer.  They are barbell weights, even though the welder uses them to print the seed phrase, I believe I can't secure or hide the seed phrase because it is too big to hide seed phrase.

As for the oven. I was trying to say that, from your presentation, you gave the examples of the tools used in printing the seed phrase, I know before you print the seed, you must heat (make it hot) your Stamps either by light, gas, stove or charcoal to make it very hot before using the anvil and the hammer to make the printing less stressful.

I really appreciate your presentation and also today I came to know about washers which can be used to secure seed phrase although it will be very difficult for me to have washer in my village but that not withstanding I can use something else to secure my phrase and also present it here. So don't be confused. I am your boy that always learning from you.

Another idea: You need to carry a bag full of weights with seed words on them and if you manage to cover a set distance, you're allowed to open it and your prize are the seed words. ;D Olympic games, Bitcoin style.

Something like this!

So you did have someone engrave / weld a seed phrase into them? I see you censored something on them.

Your welder had to heat his tools to get the seed phrase into the weights or do you mean that fillippone heated his stamps for stamping washers? I wouldn't recommend to heat up 'washer-caliber' stamps, because it would damage them. It's certainly possible that that's required to stamp actual freaking gym weights, though... ;)

That's pretty creative, I'll give you that! Never would have imagined engraving barbell weights with a Bitcoin seed phrase.
Now, that makes me think there are tons of other, more easy to stamp and conceal, metal 'things' we could stamp.

I believe someone mentioned stamping an actual door hinge, before screwing it into the wall, for instance.
You could probably also stamp your car's frame underneath the carpets or engrave some actual metal coins, maybe stored together with other coins in a piggy bank.

Heating your stamps will weaken them. If anything, you can heat the washers, but those metal stamps are designed to be used on cold metal. They're hard enough, just hit them with a hammer.

So you gave your seed phrase over to someone else and had them engrave the plates for you? That's a big mistake! If you have any coins on the seed phrase you handed over you should move them ASAP.

I have to say as well, those weight plates look like cast iron without any protective coating, and they already look pretty badly rusted. I think there is a risk of your seed phrase becoming illegible over a long enough time frame here.

You don't need to heat the seed phrase to be able to stamp them in a washer and also there is absolutely no reason to stamp the seed phrase in your gym equipment :o If your welder tells you that only he can stamp it because it needs to be heated I m 100 % shure he wants to steal your coins in the future. So send all your funds to a newly generated wallet with a different seed phrase ASAP. Take that new seed phrase and secure it secretly, not in plain sight on your gym equipment.

If washers are difficult to find in your village, then this is not a problem. You can print seed phrase on any pieces of metal you can find. Ideally, it should be stainless steel, but you can also use aluminum, copper, brass (only given that these metals are subject to destruction under certain conditions, which means they are not suitable for storage for a very long period), etc. Washers are just a starting point for your imagination, which gives you an idea of ​​how you can save seed phrase. There is a wide field for creativity and experimentation. In the absence of washers, a square, hexagon or other shape can be cut out of metal. Drill a hole in the center of each such plate and connect them with a bolt and nut. On the free areas of the plates, apply the text you need. You didn't have any problems engraving text on dumbbell discs, therefore, if you wish, it will not be difficult to implement the method I proposed.

As i can see in the picture, you have painted over the text on the disks. This is certainly good for safety, but it is not clear to us on this forum what the result of your labors looks like. Could you show at least 1 random letter so that bitcointalk community can appreciate what the seed phrase engraving on gym discs looks like?

@o_e_l_e_o is correct. The whole point of the guide is to have the washers stamped without anyone having the clue of what you are doing with this very common hardware.

Giving your seeds to someone to print it is the most basic error you could do in seeds management.
I can’t believe you have done such a stupid thing.

I love the idea to save your seed phrase on a washers or metal in general.

In this case I think I went a bit too far with it.

https://i.imgur.com/q5swTYi.jpg

I can post the results later if anyone is interested :D

Made a test piece here... made it less visible on purpose.

https://i.imgur.com/U9gzs8c.jpg

Can you explain more about the equipment that you used and is this an offline process or how do you create the files that the machine can read? Also is it easily possible to scan such an QR Code with a Smartphone?

I think it is one of those beast:
 
https://www.sic-marking.com/sites/default/files/public/styles/image_md_portrait/public/products/e-mark_web-min_0.png (https://www.sic-marking.com/e-mark-cordless-marking-system)

https://www.sic-marking.com/e-mark-cordless-marking-system

Wow, that looks great!

Good job TheBeardedBaby; this looks like a cool alternative to basically all other methods which require to stamp every letter individually by hand. It's a little bit exhausting. Typing the seed on the device itself is great for security, as it's basically 'air-gapped', right. May I ask how much such a machine costs? It doesn't look very cheap, but I love the end result.

I am very interested in your review of this machine.

I have only the doubt about the costs, and the fact that, being quite a specific industrial machine, someone could be suspectful of the usage if shipped to a private customer.

I would gladly make a review when I'm back from vacation.
Just some quick info.
In general, it's a great dot peen type for marking any metal surfaces, stainless steel, iron, no problem.
It comes with a software and you can design the labels on the computer, then transfer the files via USB stick or another clever option is to create a barcode for the label, print it out on paper and there's a wireless barcode scanner (I think it's an option, depending on the package) when connected to the machine and when you scan the code, you can directly load the label from that barcode.
You can adjust the hardness of punching, you can also crate and punch logos.
Of course, the price (of a new one) is almost as the price of a 10 years old VW up! but it's a hell of a machine. If you are lucky to put your hands on one of those you won't regret.

Does not support QR codes, at least not by default, you can upload a QR code in form of picture.
Can use datamatrix code and it comes in a nice suitcase with spare battery and spare needle.
I think it's about 3 kg, quite heavy but there's conformable handle to hold it, and you can make a small stand for if you planning to punch series of plates.

That's for now, I'll take some pics when I'm back :)
 

On the Italian thread, someone suggested a less hardcore capital intensive alternative: a laser engraving frame. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5388917.msg60273532#msg60273532)


I like this badass toy more.. I can’t wait to have some test by you @TheBeardedBaby.

Was also interested in knowing the price and searched for it on their site but didn't find out the pricing manual and on other sites also they show that we need to ask for quotation after filling a form with our details

 Industry Plaza e-mark machine  (https://www.industry-plaza.com/e-mark-cordless-marking-p186276585.html)

So it seems we have to ask for quotation or the man here can tell us the exact price for it.

This machine is really cool like the lithium ion 18V battery with capacity to mark on the metals like steel upto 62HRC and you can plug in USB cables also for file transfer and then choose the options from screen on the beast and have watched this video from SIC official YouTube channel

SIC e- mark machine  (https://youtu.be/5tSTVKcK8eQ) This is cool and was out of our sight for so many years and thanks @TheBeardedBaby for bringing this up and would like to see more detailed review about it's usage from you once you are back.

TheBeardedBaby first intrigued the machine, and then forces us all to wait! How cruel it is. :) We are already waiting for a detailed review and an approximate price.

Since this machine is industrial or for professional work, the price should be significant, as many of you assume. Undoubtedly, the result of this machine is amazing, but buying one will be unnecessarily expensive for the sake of a few seed-phrases and until you play enough with applying text to everything that comes to hand in your home.

I hope some startup will figure it out before others and create a simpler analogue for a reasonable price for bitcoiners. Such a machine can be a success. At what price would you be willing to buy this?

In addition to a machine review, it would be nice to do tests for the strength of the text, because the marking depth is only 0.3 mm. Whether the text will be vulnerable to scratches and other mechanical impacts that prevent further readability.


Copied info from the manufacturer's website https://www.sic-marking.com/e-mark-cordless-marking-system (so that the characteristics are in this topic):

Mechanic features
Dimensions: 288 x 271 x 135 mm (11.34" x 10.67" x 5.3")
Marking Types: Alphanumeric, Variable (serial or text), Datamatrix Code, and Logo
Marking Window: 60 x 25 mm (2.36" x 0.98")
Weight: 3.2 kg (7 lbs.)

Electronic features
Memory: 100 MB
LCD color screen: 320 x 240 Pixel
Keyboard: integrated Overlay Membrane
Power: 100 Watt
18V Li-ion 18V Battery: 4 Hours Marking Autonomy (normal use)

Steering software
Marking Types: Alphanumeric, Variable (serial or text), Datamatrix Code, and Logo
Transfer of Marking Files: Via USB Key
Fonts: 4x6, Arial, Courier, OCR, OCR-A, OCR_BOLD, Comic, and Comic_B
File Editing and Creation: Complete Set-Up of All Parameters
Impact Force: 1 to 9
Marking Depth: 0.3 mm (may vary depending on the material being marked)
Resolution Between Dots: 0.05 mm
Password: 1 level

Wow, I never thought that this machine would draw so much  interest.
Regarding the price, I'll quote my previous commet.


The Initial investment is serious but you can make a ton of money providing marking service or renting it out.
I promise I'll do a nice review when I get the time.

Who's going to rent a device to "print" their seed phrase? That seems risky!

I'm not talking about renting it to make seed phrase backups, that's still "electronic device" and even if you delete the seed file, for sure there will be a way to recover it.
There are many small manufacturers which could use your service. Of course, all depends from where you are located. In a rural farmlands you won't have that much marking there to do for sure :)
As I said in my first post, buying this machine only for making seed backups is an overkill.

For a fraction of the price of the e-mark you could get this >
https://images.clasohlson.com/medias/sys_master/hee/hdc/68039639695390.jpg

It will do the same job, not that nice and not that fast but way cheaper :)

I don’t like it.
Or you go full badass overkill mode with the E Mark 18v or you go the smart way with washers, sledgehammer, and anvil.
There is no way in the middle!

/j

This is interesting, but it would require at least a metallic normograph for clear lettering.
At this point I would choose the laser engraving frame proposed on the Italian thread.

On a side note I had to check what is this price everyone is talking about:
Roughly 0.25 BTC (one week worth of sig campaign in the good ol’time).

https://i.ibb.co/VqLT57j/60537616.jpg

I just learned from o_e_l_e_o that the privacy-focused email provider proton.me (https://proton.me/), which some of you may be using, now offers to create 12-word recovery phrases for your email account.
This will be another useful application for this seed phrase backup technique. After all, these washer backups are dirt cheap after initial investment for the equipment.
Just wanted to let all the 'washer guys' (? :D) here know about it in case they're interested..

Very interesting thanks.
It’s the first time I see a seed outside the bitcoin protocol.
But yeah, for sure you can use the same technique!

There was a thread about it here: Proton-mail is using BIP39 for its recovery phrase! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5385346.0)

As noted in that thread, this account recovery phrase follows the exact same specification as BIP39. You can see the code here: https://github.com/ProtonMail/bip39

It should go without saying that you should not use the same seed phrase for both ProtonMail recovery and for storing bitcoins, for obvious reasons.

Yeah also recently came to know about the news from him and was happy to see that they are adopting BIP-39 entropy for the recovery seed phrase.Along with it you can download the recovery file and you have to upload it if you want to change the password for your mail.This seed needs to be properly backed up and don't leave it at unsafe places.

---

Coming back to the orginal topic for seed phrases then we see above the SIC marking Doot peen marking machine beast that could help you to mark up on metals with clarity also but didn't know the prices for the same.

So there was one article which I found interesting about these marking machines depending on the metal type we are using and explain in good depth how the engraving works and which technology is best for the particular metal and if you "washer guys" are interested in it you can read it here :  Right marking machine  (https://www.heatsign.com/how-to-choose-the-right-marking-machine-on-metal/)

As many of you suggested, using those machines require putting your seed into those.
I would never trust any of those machine, even if they claim they don’t track what has been stamped.
So, either we buy one of those for personal use, and then we are ready to destroy it after the first use, or the washer method is superior in security terms.

Since we're throwing around ideas:

Based on the laser CNC idea from the Italian board, as seen below, how about using an actual (cheap, DIY type) CNC router?

From what I can tell, you can get DIY CNC routers for $200-$300; compared to laser etching, you can't hurt your eyesight, the cut would be deeper and it should be much quicker (though a bit messier).
What's nice about these simple machines is that in general (from my experience with 3D printers), they don't save the code persistently. When they're turned off, they essentially 'forget everything' and often print / cut from a microSD card directly, which you can wipe after you are done. It can also be generated offline with the supplied software or something more elaborate on a dedicated laptop. Most people who do 3D printing and milling have a dedicated machine in the shop just for the purpose of generating toolpaths anyway.

I think the KISS principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle) applies here: a seed storage doesn't have to look good, because you can't show it off and you won't hang it on the wall. It's literally meant for your eyes only, so if a hammer and letter stamps can do the job, I wouldn't use a CNC cutter.

Very nice.
I didn’t know this principle, but for sure applies here: the less, the simpler, the better.
Only thing is that probably a better stamped letter is more resistant to damage than a poorly stamped one. So the right tool might be necessary.

And the cheaper (although that's probably what you meant). E-mark machine, of course, is a cool thing, or even a laser, but a hammer and a stamps will cost less.

Regarding the laser: under what conditions can a text applied in this way become unreadable? What is vulnerable to text printed with a laser? However, the text printed with stamps will be difficult to spoil due to the intaglio printing on metal, and this method seems to be more reliable than laser.

I made a sample (in an earlier post in this thread) using a slightly sharpened screwdriver (hard to call it the right tool) and the stamping result was quite readable with sufficient depth of writing. So, if desired and diligent, you can print the text on washers and with improvised means. Although it will take longer and the result will be far from participating in art competitions (but the main thing is readability).

Totally agree with the looks not being as important, but from my experience so far, it gets a little exhausting doing a few backups in a day.
On the other hand, I just realized an issue with CNC cutting, which is that you'd need to find a way to mechanically fasten the washers in place without the drill bit interfering with your fastening method. So I'd say 'scratch that idea'.. ;)

By the way, I'm certain a better stamping surface will make it much easier, since the rather soft workbench I use with a piece of metal on it, simply absorbs a lot of force. By using a nice anvil like fillippone, most of your energy will go into the letter.

Absolutely!

While using a CNC cutting machine anyway, just start with a metal plate. Engrave the words, then cut out washers (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oGB57V8CiX0) :D

Definitely! You shouldn't stamp on wood, even just a heavy hammer under the washer will do.

Just an idea here, if you change the letters into binary then instead of buying a whole set of stamping letter you need two old screwdrivers one Philips and one flat one and you are done, you need just a bigger washers.

That defeats the purpose of using words, and makes mistakes much more likely again.

At that point a would suggest the WIF format.
This is a good compromise between human readability and the risk associated with the slightly different implementations of the BIP39 standard (I.e. Word lists, derivation paths etc.)

A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design (https://blog.lopp.net/a-treatise-on-bitcoin-seed-backup-device-design/)

I had his KISS and privacy principles in mind when realising this guide.

Nice reading material from JL as usual!
Did you know he is working on testing new set of metal seed backup plates/devices?
I think he received some of them from forum members that found about Jameson Lopp in this place ;)
He made post about stress testing new devices few weeks ago (Secret Seed, Coinplate, Cryptotag, etc.):
https://nitter.kavin.rocks/lopp/status/1555683927502819334

I guess that article is not an end to his backup solution reviews, but rather a “summary” of lessons learned so far.
This is useful to both users assessing the quality of their storage solution and Producers, trying new design ideas.

So I guess he’s not done with testing rounds and reviews!

Regarding 'A single solid piece of metal' as a requirement for a good seed backup; I am really curious about what he thinks about the washer backup technique, compared to the commercial solutions.
I know he tried it already, but it would have been great if that was included in this summary, as well.

As of right now, a seed phrase backup 'product' would really need to be something extraordinary to move me away from washers. It's just so simple, so private, so unconspicuous and I love how you can easily re-stamp words if you messed one up.

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.

No he is not done yet, as long as people are making new stuff and sending him for stress testing.
Maybe someone could send him regular stainless steel washers with random words for empty wallet, if he didn't test that already.
Problem is that not all washers are made equally, so it's important to note exact size and metal alloy.

I don't know if anyone made titanium washers but they would be much more expensive.
Stainless steel washers are good enough, unless they are some cheap chinese alloy mix with aluminum.

He can simply state which alloy was used, in fact it's something he's already doing when speaking about plate-type seed backups:


Titanium washers exist; not cheap, but not unviable.

https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ ~3€ each
https://www.titane-services.eu/epages/230155.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/230155/Products/TIR-MU05GR5 ~1.50€ each

Since you can do a 24-word backup on 12 washers, plus one to hide the first word when everything's screwed together, it will be between 20 and 40 bucks. Just in case anyone absolutely wants to do it for whatever reason.. ;D

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.

OMG they exist already!  :D
I am not sure why people would use titanium washers in real life, but maybe someone is using them in nuclear plants, or in places that need higher melting point.
For titanium it's around 1650 – 1670 °C (3000 – 3040 °F) and for stainless steel it's 1230 – 1530 °C (2250 – 2790 °F).
They are still cheaper than most stainless steel ready made products, but only thing I would be concerned if adding letters would be much harder, or if it's even possible to add them.

Titanium - The strongest metal on earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAR3allc7U

I looked at your links and I will say yes, you are right, it is quite affordable (although I had the belief that it was too expensive), even with shipping included. If necessary, those who wish to obtain an ultra-reliable method of storing seed phrase can use titanium washers and it won't ruin them financially. :)

Titanium washers will cost more than $20-40. And that's why:
https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ - in this link there are washers with an outer diameter of 15mm, which I consider very small and it will be problematic to put text on them. Also, the thickness of the washer seems to me too small - only 1mm. As a result, the dimensions and thickness of this particular sample will not allow you to write 2 words for each washer. With due skill and necessity, this is doable (despite the miniaturization of the text), but it is better to choose https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-washer-m12-28mm-od-form-c/ - washers with an outer diameter of 28mm and a thickness of 2.5mm at a price of 6.6£ each.

Let's calculate the costs:
12 words + 1 hiding the first word = 7 washers (if applied on 2 sides) = ~46£.
24 words + 1 hiding the first word = 13 washers (if applied on 2 sides) ~ 86£.
Multiply the price by 2 if only 1 word will be writed on each washer.

Probably, after my preliminary calculations, it will no longer seem cheaper.

While I want to congratulate fillippone for this incredible article and for all the (physical) work he did for being possible to write it, this topic reminded me of something and I wanted to post these thoughts for a while now, but I keep forgetting to do it...

Seeing fillippone's enthusiams (and also the ones' mentioned in OP), this reminded me of modders. Do you remember the modders? Those enthusiasts which started, many years ago, to modify PC cases, to make exotic cable management, add lights and so on...? Those which did physical work to cut the cases in various shapes as their imagination drove them...?

Well, no matter how well designed a case was, modders' "credo" was this: "why not modify it if we can?" -- this being, of course, in contradiction to PC cases designers, which would say "why would you change such a beautiful case, since it's just perfect?" :)

Similar to the two credos mentioned above, nowadays we have many types of wallets, each competing with the others for attracting as many users as possible. But still, there are some enthusiasts, such as fillippone, which are willing to try new ideas, ideas also involving physical work, same as modders do. And also, most likely, having same question in mind: "why not change it (n.b. the "old-school" method of storing coins inside a wallet) if we can?".

And, as you see, from this mindset beautiful ideas may arise, including to actually use an anvil (!!!) for storing BTC / private keys...

---

Hihi, anytime! (Although I don't remember anymore what the monstrosity was :))

Thanks for the kind words, but when I got this notification on my hairy wiriest, I really hoped you had finally published your contribution to this topic!
Less words, more facts!
 ;)

Well that might be true because the washer itself might be cheap in some countries but differ in prices in the location. This made me to do some research on the price difference and I came to see that the prices are not the in different sites. I thought because of the size of the washers or the quality.

 https://racetechtitanium.com/product-category/fasteners/titanium-fasteners/titanium-washers/


Even the sites n0nce provided, the prices are not the same. That means different companies sell it with different prices. Therefore, in some wholesales and retails sell differently. And also that can not be compared to a close place with a distance location and to interior Hamlets.

My friend @hymperion from the Italian Board:
made a hard treatment to the washers without any apparent effect:

(courtesy translation by me, original post in Italian)


The images are pretty self-explanatory.

He also mentioned using acid as H2SO4 on the washers without any major effect still.

Awesome! Merits given.

Also the 'POS SCHIFO'? :P Really liked that easter-egg.

Hi all, glad my work has been appreciated.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.

That would be a good addition I think.
Even if I really can’t figure out a scenario where your seed is flooded with sulphuric acid (while I can understand why it could be exposed to 700°).

But it would be interesting to know it there is any data loss after a few days in the acid.

it will be done

I'd like to see the same test, but with multiple washers tightened together by a bolt. Can you still separate them after they've been red hot and cooled down?

What exactly did you use? Pure H2SO4 isn't very corrosive to steel, try diluted H2SO4 ;)

the temperature is not such as to cause a fusion and make them stick but I can also do this test without problems.

Are you using acid diluted with water?

I'm not using it myself, but that's what I mean.

Great work man and it's really nice to see members testing the extreme conditions that these washers can survive because we are talking about engraving our seed phrases over them.But yes the acid test would be giving more specific results and does it have any effect over it or not so will be good if you publish the results.

I think steel is corrosive to diluted nitric acid with water but yes you can try it with diluted H2SO4 to see if there is any effect that can cause damage to the engraved seed over them or not.

okay then I'll dilute it with water and see what happens.

Be very careful there! I don't know how you get pure H2SO4 in your house, but adding water releases a lot of energy > heat > splashing.

Be careful! Mixing water and sulfuric acid is exothermic enough that it can make the water boil. And since water is less dense than sulfuric acid, any boiling happens on the surface of your container and so the reaction is prone to spit and splash acid all over the place.

Instead add the sulfuric acid slowly to a container of water, so the sulfuric acid will sink through the water and the larger quantity of water will dissipate the heat without boiling.

Edit: Beaten by Marcel by 2 minutes!

I like where there are diverse talent on the forum! Who would have guessed you need chemistry notion to master bitcoin? As much as  cryptography was easy, then you risk your hand securing your result of elliptic curve scalar multiplication!

Thanks so much for the advice and concern.  :D

I should already have a tank of acid diluted 40% with water.

I'm not sure it's needed. We're just nerd at heart :P, and therefore must overcompensate on everything when it comes to security. As you said previously, it's highly unlikely you get acid anywhere near these things, and if you did you'd probably have to question your security in the first place, and why you stored it close to potentially hazardous material.


I do think though, any tests being carried out should be done as you intend to store them. That way you get a more accurate test. As was said above, storing them together then heating them up. Same as the acid should probably be tested with them stored how you're actually going to store them, as there could be something unpredictable in the way you're storing them.

I actually think the Hermetic container would probably be the weak point. Since, there's plenty for sale, but having one that is to the same grade as your washers is vital.

exactly, a very important caution is not to expose the first word, you have to put another additional washer ahead so if the container were to melt due to a fire it would not stick to the engraving of the seed word.

Nice work testing steel washers!
You could become European and Italian version of Jameson Lopp  :D
If you don't know he tested and tortured many metallic seed cold storage backups and he wrote extensive reviews.
Maybe you can get some ideas for future testing by reading his reviews:
https://blog.lopp.net/tag/cold-storage/
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

Have you by chance tested storage options for the washers? I'm taking a look at the options out there, and while they all claim to be a certain grade of steel or whatever, I can't really verify their claims by looks alone. That's just sort of trusting their claims, without actually knowing its a certain grade. Seems to be something that would be easily said, and gotten away with too. Since, I suspect most people don't test the claims.

I might have to purchase a few, and test them out myself. I do like the compactness of the suggestions in the original post though. I'd just be concerned about if it were to melt, even if you put a spacer in between, is the melted metal going to get past that if it doesn't fit absolutely perfectly. I guess gravity acts as a seal somewhat between the washers with the seed on it.

I think I made a lot of references to Jameson Loop's articles in the OP and I even linked the guide to Bitcoin Storage.
So I think the moral tribute to JL is pretty clear on this thread!

how about stainless steel bento box

and heat bags.

outer bento box

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B091Y6MNQZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?

inner bento

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CJJX3VZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?



small fire proof

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085BL9XW2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?

large fire proof

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074S2H4H9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?



so (washers) in (small fire proof) in (small bento) in ( large fire proof) in ( large bento )

I would think this would withstand 1000f in an oven for quite a long time

but that the fire proof bags could melt

I also would say

washers wrap in kevlar cloth drop in small bento wrap in kevlar cloth in large bento

might work well .

I have a few yards of kevlar and a kevlar scissors.


it rates to 800 f

https://www.armorco.com/online-store/Kevlar-Fabrics-c23597470

is my supplier for kevlar.

this fire blanket is also good.

https://www.amazon.com/Fiberglass-Emergency-Suppression-Retardant-Fireplace/dp/B09H2H2KSF/ref=sr_1_7?

1022f. good price

Looks like you're planning to store washers at the foot of an erupting volcano. ;D I don't think most people will need that many layers of protection, although I admit that in some parts of the world it would make sense to take your advice. By themselves, washers can withstand a fairly high temperature, and in standard cases this should be enough. Well, for those who have high risks of contact with fire, then you should think about the use of refractory materials. For example, those that can be bought at a hardware store. Or store in that part of the house (or other buildings) where these materials were used during construction.

I am tempted to test this with paper in my oven.

My oven goes to 575f

I have all the bentos.
I have the kevlar
I have the fire proof bags
I have the fire blanket.

I think the small bento and the small fireproof bag should be good enough.

But I would go
 1)paper sheet.
 2) fire leak proof bag
3) wrap with kevlar
4) small bento

I think it would do 575f for two hours.

House fires actually get surprisingly hot; I was impressed myself when I first read about them.


Personally, I like to keep things simple and stupid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle). It should be pretty safe to use a thick, high-temp resistant metal for washers, screw and nut and store the whole stack somewhere in your basement. A physical safe is generally a good idea, too, especially when not using passphrases.

In my mind, enclosing it in a ton of layers may give you more headache than helping, when trying to get it out again; I could be wrong, though.

Apparently, the ignition temperature of paper is around 500°F; however a house fire can go over 1500°F, so you'd need a bit more heat to test whether the temperature within all those layers can be kept below 500°, with an outside temperature of 1500°.

Hammer the words into the back of the safe, then mount it to the wall. You don't need washers if you have a 30 kg steel box.

Less convenient to work with / take out / move places, I guess, but yeah, you're not wrong. :D

It's a feature, not a bug. Who's going to steal a safe if the key is there and there's nothing of value in there?

Than you don't need your laptop, you can use your National Supercomputer Snellius for managing Bitcoin and Electrum wallet, nobody is going to steal that  :P

Maybe not inside, but it's outside the box.
Someone who knows what you did (last summer) hammering that seed words on that steal box, could leak the information and someone could actually steal what is valuable.
Didn't you watch all the movies where thieves steal the safe deposit boxes because they can't open them quickly enough, than they could bring it home and examine it from all sides?
If you have safe deposit at home it's obvious that you have something valuable to hide.

Caught On Video: Burglars Steal Safe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6i06D5p7D4

They're usually dumped not far from where the crime was committed, so you could potentially retrieve it again. That's if they didn't see the seed that is. However, I'd agree smash, and grab is far more likely than them taking the time or tools to get into a safe on site. Since, it either takes too long or makes a lot of noise.

I think most homes have safes, right? Some houses used to come built with them in, and they were massive ones. You probably aren't going to be hauling that around, not far anyway. Most people put the deeds on their houses, and various other stuff in it. Unfortunately, they usually keep the key in the house, which obviously presents its own problems.

I don't think that's the case anymore since most people are living in tall buildings and flats, and I doubt each apartment has a safe.
People are still hiding their valuable things but they are mostly using hidden compartments or in walls, and some of them still trust the banks  :P
I honestly don't know many people who publicly say they own safe deposits in their homes and I never saw it myself, but nobody is going to brag in public about that obviously.
Getting back to steel washers, most people do own some basic home tools and steel washers, so nobody would be interested in them very much ;)

Fair enough, maybe it's a cultural thing or location dependant or even a generational thing. I know quite a lot of older people who are totally against banks, and have cash stowed away. They were self custodial-ing before it was cool to do so.

A lot of the olders houses around the UK have built in safes, and they're big bastards. You aren't getting it out without a bit of a struggle, and a lot of noise. Times are changing those, we're moving to the digital money age, and therefore houses don't come with them any more. Honestly, I don't think these new timber framed houses could hold a safe of that weight up anyway.

Yeah, steel washers with your seed could potentially even be left out in a tool box (although probably shouldn't be stored with expensive tools). Since, not many people are going to think twice about that. Not my particular choice of method, but I could see the reasoning behind it. Basically, anyone breaking into your house is looking for electronics, jewellery, and likely a safe of some kind. Since people are creatures of habit, they tend to store these safes in the same places too.

  Take it from me

 safe = attention getter

Engraving a list of 12 words on the back of a safe without no one around, and mounting that 30Kg box without anyone noticing the word list on the back of the safe, could be a tricky task, to say the list.

Same thing for the recovery of the seed.

That's why I said "the key is there", so it's obvious there's no value in it.

They took the safe in less than 2 minutes, which means it wasn't wall mounted. Here, we have concrete floors and wallls. If it's properly mounted, there's no way a crowbar is enough to pry it loose.

Not where I'm living.

Here's another idea: let them waste time on your safe, and hide your seed words elsewhere :)

I see no problems there: close the curtains, get the power tools. Give me 30 minutes, and another 30 minutes to securely verify the seed words before funding the wallet.

Like I said, that's intentional (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg61343320#msg61343320) :) I don't need seed words to be readily available.

I do DIY all the time. All my neighbors would hear is a bit of banging and drilling (just like when I host a Foxpup party). I could easily just be putting up some shelves or building some new piece of furniture. No one is going to suspect someone is engraving a seed phrase every time they hear a bit of building working going on.

I have some wallets which I haven't accessed a seed phrase back up once since I set them up many years ago, other than to check the integrity of my back ups. But if the words are engraved in a safe and bolted to my wall/floor, then I can be certain the integrity is just fine unless my home has been destroyed.

You can also put 2-3 seed phrases in the safe so that the attackers lose more time. Preferably, consisting of 24 words. In this case, every minute is precious and time works against them. If they check seed phrases on the spot, then the likelihood that someone will frighten (neighbors or residents) them increases, which means that the attackers will leave with empty wallets.

The safe can be used as a distraction and for storing small change (seed phrases with access to the minimum amount).

The best place to hide something is the most visible place. Turn on fantasy and store seed phrases in the place where they will least search. Like in that movie, when the diamonds lay at the bottom of the aquarium among the pebbles and the glass.

if you want to hide them in plain sight, why not paint your words on a big painting and hang them on the wall:

https://i.ibb.co/cydj936/61362458.png

prompt:

I'm back, sorry for the wait.

meanwhile I put 1 washer in normal water and 1 in h2so4 at 38%

https://i.postimg.cc/s2SyRyp9/photo-2022-11-29-11-42-51.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/bvRCnB8f/photo-2022-11-29-11-42-40.jpg (https://postimg.cc/t1YNQDYB)

the acid reacts with the zinc. let's see what happens in the long run.

instead for the test of several attached washers exposed to the flame here are the results.

https://i.postimg.cc/2jnwLtxc/photo-2022-11-29-11-42-36.jpg (https://postimg.cc/YjqgJbZY)

I wrenched the nuts as tight as I could.

https://i.postimg.cc/jqhfbYcb/photo-2022-11-29-11-42-25.jpg (https://postimg.cc/c6rCRjP9)

was in direct exposure for more than 5 min.

https://i.postimg.cc/KjYBW0dL/photo-2022-11-29-11-42-56.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

after letting them cool I unscrewed the nuts and some washers were attached, probably the impurities melt and cause this but it was enough to slam them on the counter to make them split. The incisions would not have been damaged under any circumstances.

Well done.
I don’t know if it is the image hosting provider that is downsizing the pro tires or you took them with a device from the 90’s.. but the pictures are really bad and I can’t see anything.

Would you mind re-uploading with a better resolution (I use imgur.com)?

Click them :)

I prefer images that be seen without clicking too.

Mind: blown


Who am I to disagree?
What is the whole point of having a service like that if you need to click an image to see it?

You do not need to click to "see it". Thumbnails maybe are a little too small but it is disputable, at least it saves transfer. IMHO there is nothing wrong in click to see it in "normal" size. And now I wonder if you talk about that click (from thumbnail to middle size) or about the next one, from middle size to "original" size. I like that idea, because "normal" size is enough to understand what you see, while "original" size is far too big, I see only a part of the image on my screen and I must scroll. Unhandy.

even if the mystery has been resolved :D I edit the post with the full image, I used the thumbnails to avoid visually polluting the page.

How long do you plan on keeping washers in this acid liquid?
One more idea is to do long term test with salt water, some stainless steel is affected by sea and salt water and corrosion can happen for cheaper stuff.
This could happen if there is no molybdenum in stainless steel mix, but we never know this until we test it ;)

Here is one example of mostly used grades of stainless steel, so better check out what type is used in your washers:
https://www.mchoneind.com/stainless-steel-grades-chart

hello, in the acid I can keep them as long as we want it's not a problem, even a month.

Since salt is not stainless steel, I can't find any useful results on that table. I just have to add some salt to the jar with just the water.

The only problem with this, unless you test it yourself you're taking the manufacturers word on what grade it is. Ideally, you'd buy a test batch, and run through your risks, and do actual physical tests on them. Even then, you can't guarantee their entire inventory is made with the same standard. So, there's always going to be a degree of risk.

I took a look at some of my washers I had handy, and there's no indication whatsoever what was used in the manufacturing process. So, I have no clue what grade they are. These are washers that are used on a industry that we all use though, and should be manufactured to a decent quality.

In my opinion, these experiments are amazing, but in the end, for 99.9% of people it should be fine taking the best material they can find & afford and then let the backups sit for a while. You should check them (condition, accessibility) from time to time anyway. If you notice they catch a lot of rust quickly or start sticking together (for whatever reason), you should be able to spot it quickly enough and redo them.

The one exception to this would actually be fire or salt water (if you live near the sea); because house fires and floods are not normally occuring events, but could happen.

yes, I'm only missing the one with salt water, I'd like to get the sea one directly but now I don't know where to find it, I'm a bit far away.

Depends on what country you live, but some regions are often affected with this.
For example if you live in Florida that hurricanes and floods are happening every year, just look what happened with Tesla crap cars and salt sea water this year.
Lithium batteries are reacting with salt water (they create chemical reaction) and turning into literal bombs with fire that are very hard to put down with regular water.

Italy is surrounded by sea last time I checked, but you can order it online and pay with Bitcoin  :D

https://i.imgur.com/79Jncpa.jpg

You can mix it yourself with table (or sea) salt from the store. :D

That's why I said that fire and salt water are tests that make sense; anything more extreme (like exposure to acids) is highly unlikely to actually happen to your seed backups.
I loved your very 'graphic' description of Tesla cars exploding like bombs. What makes it funnier is that it's accurate. ;D

For real; people buy bottled salt water?

You'd be amazed on the way women people are able to spend their money.
I am sure I saw canned air for sale.
Regarding the sea, it's obviously an excuse for @hymperion not to ruin his own OpSec... or actually the contrary, as the vast majority of Italy is in the immediate vicinity to the coastline.

That's ridiculous! We only have cans, and they came free of charge:
https://images0.persgroep.net/rcs/x2BUnbVpidOSHULLL0557DlcI3M/diocontent/179948213/_fitwidth/694/?appId=21791a8992982cd8da851550a453bd7f&quality=0.8

 ;D ;D ;D ;D you always see us long!


after musk made parfume with his hair and sold it for $200 if i'm not mistaken nothing surprises me anymore haha

Yes they are ... just search the term ''selling sea water'' on internet :D
On Amazon I found Panakos was selling DEEP Seawater in 5.28 gallon, and I am sure there are other examples.
People are selling everything on internet, and every merchandise finds it's buyer in the end, question is if they are accepting Bitcoin for ''special'' ocean water ;)
Just hire few actors to advertise this on TV commercials and movies and you will have lines of people waiting to buy this...

https://i.imgur.com/PEZAMEs.jpg

Salt water, is for boys.
Canned air is for men:

https://www.ea-essentialair.com/ea-home/ea-universe/ea-air/


You can buy it on the internet.

Back on topic: I don't see many reasons why your seed should be damaged by salt water, but you can try a long-run test. Just leave them in a jar for a couple of months to see what happens.

I agree, the tests are fun, and it's always fun testing for the unlikely, even if that unlikely is incredibly unlikely :P.

Plus, I'd submerging your materials inside of water too. I know it's not as abrasive as salt, but flooding from rain water is more common than from the sea, unless you live extremely close to the sea obviously. The reason being, as I said before you can't automatically trust the manufacturer of these materials, and whether they'll not degrade given a decent amount of time in water.

I don't know how many times I've had questionable metal, that's suppose to not rust, and do. I've even had titanium which rusted within a few days. I'm currently looking for these Hermetic containers though, struggling to find them.

This is the whole point of the thread.
I guess in reality it would be very unlikely for any of those seeds to be submerged in salt water for too long.
Even in the most dramatic earthquake, you are allowed to go back to your place and recover your belongings.
This would be your chance to recover your precious bolted washers.

Reagarding the rust free metals, There's a big difference between rust free coating and rust free metal.
Many sellers play with that and expected quality is far from the reality.
If the coating is damaged the bottom layer will start rusting.
It saves money to the seller but do the opposite to the buyer.
I haven't seen stainless steel washers rusting yet. If they are 316L then you are on the safe side.

In case you are in a doubt, you can always apply grese on the washers in case you live close to the coastline. That will add a few more decades life of the washers in case of tsunami, or you can hide them in a water too.

Even on rusted washers exposed on normal weather conditions, if the stamps are deep enough, they will be readable for years.

Then the thickness of the metal on the washers will need to be thicker, which, accordingly, will increase the overall size of the washers. The thicker they are, the larger the size. This creates some difficulties for ordinary users. Making deep stamps on thick metal with stamps is almost impossible and will require deep engraving, laser or dremel. In any case, you will need special equipment.

This level of protection and preservation of the puck can only be done by people with access to the necessary equipment and the appropriate skills. No one in their right mind would think to apply with such an order to specialized services.

Even that miracle machine causes only superficial and not deep dots - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg60523498#msg60523498.

Although a piece of metal in the last photo in that post is impressive.

I've never had the pleasure of owning titanium, but Google tells me pure titanium doesn't rust.

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

Wax would probably also work well. And hide what they are. Get a candle mold, put the stack in, make the candle with a wick and put it on a shelf. Decorative candle that holds your seed phrase in an airtight way. Odds are a thief is not going to go after a candle on a shelf if you happen to get robbed.

And yes, pure titanium should not rust but a lot of titanium alloys will.

-Dave

Other than oil, there is also paint that is used specially for protection against rust.
I even saw some examples of users who created painted DIY bitcoin stainless seed washers.

That's a good idea, because oil and water doesn't mix at all, and even putting them in grease or fat would work just fine.
Titanium is great, and I think someone said that washers from titanium exist,  but they are much more expensive.

Works 100%.
I know people who are using bee wax for securely sealing containers.

Unless your candle is orange and decorated with a BTC symbol, yes, I would say that a candle is another place a random burglar wouldn't check.

This makes me object that the problem is not on where you hide, but actually "how" you hide.
You can have the most convolute system to hold your seed, but if you ultimately have to tell someone where this seed is, that is the most critical point of failure (I guess the average divorcing wife can make a candle disappear, or eradicate a safe box from the wall.

Well, that was the issue. I didn't own titanium either because it rusted within a few days. It should react with the oxygen in the air, and provide a sort of protection from the rust. That was the point I was trying to make, even though some might say the metal is x, they could potentially be pulling your leg. For a lot of metals its not actually obvious what type of metal or grade it is. We just take the manufacturers or the person selling it for their word.

Oil could work, I suppose. Wouldn't that pose extra risks with fire then? Oil increasing the heat of a potential fire, and then still having to rely on the washers or containers supposed grade.

It was likely a blend of titanium, and other metals. Since, this metal was fairly cheap for a chunk of titanium. I was suspicious at the time.

If that's a concern, you could use high-temperature grease, I have some C5-A at home that's supposed to withstand 1800 ^oF (980 ^oC). But a backup is a much simpler solution :)

I am just wondering which kind of tool you have at home.
I have no grease, no anvil, and no hammers. I basically had to buy everything for this guide while you guys have "home improvement-grade" sheds full of the weirdest tools.

At first when I saw the thread I thought to myself this is too time taking to read through, but then I had to go through it anyway and it was worth it in the almost about 30mins I spent to read through.

I am completely impressed with the whole idea of the corrosion-resistant stainless steel seed phrase storage as it going to last for decades if not for time immemorial in addition to other advantageous factors attached like it being fire safe too. But the whole cost of getting the entire enlisted materials available for the whole procedures raise a concern to me based on my financial feat, even though it is worth it. And so I have come up with another idea of getting to use a goldsmith to print for me (to cut cost in the purchase of materials)  but with an aluminum steel. For security of not exposing my seed phrase I also thought of taking each phrase seed to different goldsmiths  in different distant locations. All these is just to help me in saving cost as getting all those materials needed as listed by fillippone might soil my pocket at the moment.  ;D

Just the usual I guess, I've collected it over the years. I started with cheap 40-in-1 boxes as a teenager, and now switched to buying only quality tools. I don't use them often, so I expect it to last a lifetime.

So you're starting your tool collection :) Next time, you'll have to buy less.

That's a terrible idea!

What's that?

It's still terrible for security. Don't do this, don't risk it.

You must live in a country with very low wages. Here, a goldsmit opening the door already costs more than all the equipment listed in this topic.
My advice when you're on a budget: get washers (you'll need them anyway) or even cheaper: a plate of scrap metal. Buy letter punches. All the rest you can improvise MacGyver style.

Definitely don't take my equipment list too literally. I just described an overkill configuration. But a bunch of washers, an hammer  and a nut and a bold would be enough for a more than decent backup.
The important thing, like @LoyceV said, is security. Never expose your seed, or part of it, to anyone.

Getting those materials also depend on the location or the country of the buyer. You might think that those things are cheap in your area but might not be the same in another area. That bunch of washer which comprises of the hammer, bold, and the plate the name may be will cost like $20 plus in my locality. And if it is not found in the locality, you will ship it from out country which will cost another extra expenses. If someone really get that, it will be a nice saver of seed phrase.

I generally agree with that; I've definitely come across items that are commonplace in Europe and impossible to find in the US, and vice-versa.
However, I don't see how people in other locations would build anything without washers. This would be like saying 'oh yeah, over here we build furniture without screws' or 'we do not use nails'. Wherever you find screws (anywhere, no?) there should be washers nearby.

I've noticed it with ball bearings vs carbon brushes: the former are very cheap here, the latter very expensive (compared to international prices). Both are mass-produced and used in very large quantities. It doesn't make sense that only one of them is very expensive (1000-2000% price increase).

And if not, they can be produced locally from scrap metal (https://youtu.be/eKrMyPlObBc?t=94). And we're worrying about high quality titanium to avoid corrosion or melting in a fire.
Letter punches may be more difficult to find.

It's true that washers can be found anywhere in the world, but question is how good is quality of materials that is used to make them.
There are different types of stainless steel, and some cheap alternatives are made from regular steel or the use different metal alloys with worse specifications.
I would buy washers only from trusted sellers and always check label and specification for exact material that is used.

Let the washer be of poorer quality and from slightly different alloys, it will still be better than cardboard or paper. In case of emergency, ordinary iron washers can be used, only taking care that the metal doesn't come into contact with oxygen, which causes an oxide film in the form of rust. This can make the printed text unreadable. Use modern ways to protect metal, like paint or something like that. Ultimately, this is an additional way to hide the text on the washers (you can't accidentally peek and if someone removes the paint, you will know that the seed phrase is compromised), which you can always remove with a solvent.

This is not the best solution, but in the case of limited components, it is quite acceptable.

The purpose of this guide was to provide a very basic way of safeguarding seed with very commonly available materials that can be bough basically everywhere without raising OpSec concern.
Nothing says this is the ultimate way of storing your seed.

Still on the hunt for those containers. I like the look of them, and I'm sure there's other ways of going about it, but they satisfy the nerd in me.

I've just accumulated weird tools as life has progressed. So, I did have some of the stuff for this guide. I haven't got any grease that'll withstand that sort of temperature though. Same as the washers, I'm not sure the grade of metal used in my washers as they're plain, and a little beat up. They probably came off of something years ago that I can't remember.

A nice idea to hide your seed:

https://i.ibb.co/bJQhd9v/61693327.png (https://twitter.com/add_BTC/status/1620177700932689921?s=20&t=azeIFjiF_UkA1sP551IiOw)

Of course there is a big risk when you want to recover your seed, or that you unvoluntailty expose it if you forget it's hidden there! (it can happen!)

Sorry honey, I'm doing some online shopping, I'll put back the 12 doors when I'm done.

Those looks like hinges from a big closet/wardrobe. So probably detaching one of those at a time doesn't need to fully dismount the door.
But you are right, ultimately the problem is the security in writing/reading the seeds. A little bit like the scenario descrived here in the thread of the seed engraved on the external case of a safe in a wall.

It's a pretty old idea, no? At least I've heard it a couple times before.
Definitely an alternative to washers in terms of acquiring a flat piece of metal at a cheap price, with built-in concealment.

Although I still believe washers to be the most versatile option, as well as more common in a wide variety of materials. I.e. I can get super-high-temp-special-washers, meanwhile it will be much harder to find similarly fire-resistant door hinges.

I guess washers are absolutely a superior choice. Again because they are easily moveable to a different location when needed. What might have you to do in case you need to clear your house in a few minutes?

In the case of door hinges, if they hide seed-phrase on the reverse side, it will not be difficult to quickly remove them if necessary. All you need to do is unscrew a few screws.

In general, the idea is quite interesting. In fact, you can hide seed-phrase in this way in any piece of furniture that uses metal elements.

The challenge, in my opinion, is finding hinges (or other pieces of metal in your furniture) made of quality metal that are resistant to corrosion, shattering, and fire.

Door hinges, as it turned out, are made of nickel, brass, and even stainless steel 304 (easily googled in a well-known chinese store). And also, you can pick up other stainless steel fittings who want to hide the phrase under them. There is a wide field for creativity here.

*Don't try this if the furniture is not yours, obviously, like if you are renting an apartment. :)

It would probably be restricted to one piece of paper though. Because as you stuff more papers inside a hinge or any other place, really, it starts to get cumbersome to keep all the papers inside without overflowing.

??? Stuffing is a creative idea; but I believe we're talking about engraving the seed phrase onto the back part of the hinge (that faces the wood).

It's not a bad idea though, a piece of paper behind a door hinge is much easier than stamping 24 words in 12 different hinges.
But I'd rather put it in a hole in concrete, much better fire resistance and less likely for anyone to ever find.

I thought the idea was to stamp all the words into a single hinge. Or maybe 2 hinges of a door. In total they have 4 individual (hidden) sides, so it would only be 3 words per hinge-part.

Something like this, but obviously on the other side.
https://i.postimg.cc/HxZ1t4DG/image.jpg

Words are supposed to go here.
https://i.postimg.cc/3RynPg0Q/image.png

Make sure to double check if you have the correct side.
I remember guys who worked on my new windows several years ago, they totally screwed everything up and set them up in reversed way, yeah this really happened. :)
Instead of using this hinges on heavy doors, I would suggest adding them to smaller doors maybe on wardrobe, closet or maybe smaller kitchen or toilet elements.
Nobody will look for seed words in my toilet, right?   :D

https://i.imgur.com/1QgKIKt.jpg

This is a very fun idea. Yet, the simplicity, flexibility and security of a bolt with washers is still unbeaten in my opinion.

Speaking of simplicity: I noticed Shiftcrypto sells tamper evident bags:


https://i.ibb.co/Kh5zSjt/61699357.jpg (https://shiftcrypto.shop/en/products/tamper-evident-bags-27/?packagesize=5-bags)
https://shiftcrypto.shop/en/products/tamper-evident-bags-27/?packagesize=5-bags

It will be better to store in a hole in concrete than in a doorway. But I think it’s better not on a piece of paper, but in the form of a rod, like cryptosteel capsule or hexagonal stainless steel rod. Drilled a hole and inserted, it's simple. Of course, disguised.


Again, nothing prevents the washers from being hidden in the concrete. You just have to make the hole a little larger in size and it is better to fill the voids with concrete or something similar so that the cavities don't tap out. But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal. Then the option with a piece of paper turns out to be better, having previously processed it from destruction and placed, for example, in fireproof packaging.

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

When taking about concrete walls, i assumed it's reinforced concrete (which has steel rods in there). So a metal detector will always detect something.

I understand you, but you are missing one small detail. The detectors easily distinguish between iron (with which concrete walls are reinforced) and stainless steel (which your washers or plates will most likely be made of). Therefore, experienced people who know how to use a metal detector without any problems and accurately determine the location of foreign metal in the wall. Unless seed-phrase is applied to a piece of iron, so as not to stand out against the rest of the background, but will be subject to corrosion.

What do I want to say? There are many different factors to consider when choosing how to store seed-phrases and locations. There will always be people who can find hidden places made by other people.

Still, I've never heard of anything searching walls with a metal detector for Bitcoin ;) The only reason to do that would be to avoid drilling in pipes.
I'm not worried about this. Besides, I'd fill the hole with a screw, which makes it even more obvious there's metal.

That's true, but we don't have to be all that creative. Who's going to scan your walls with a metal detector? Even, if they did, and it went off it could be pipes or anything really. There's a ton of metal in my walls. Plus, no one's really going to think of that unless you're a really high target, but most of us aren't targets to that. So, while I like the discussion about creative ideas, I think we should probably keep it to realistic threat levels.

Plus, I'm not convinced by door hinges. I've seen some very poor quality hinges which rust like crazy when exposed to moisture. So, I'd preferably go for something that's resistant to corrosion.

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Brilliant suggestion!  ::) Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

Copper is durable metal and you can use it, but stainless steel is better in every way and it's even cheaper than copper if you buy washers in your local shop, they are less than $10.
If copper was better than everyone would use it to make metal backups for Bitcoin, and I only saw one or two products who did that, compared to hundreds of projects that use stainless steel.
FYI Copper melting point is 1981 F (1083 C), and for stainless steel that is 2750 F (1510 C), big difference if fire happens near your metal backup.

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.
Why should you use copper? 10$is not that different from the price of the washers.

Although it's true copper easily corrodes (we have old buildings with copper roofs that are now green), it also forms a protective layer. Plain iron would rust away completely, copper doesn't.
Also, since copper is much softer, it's much easier to use a letter stamp. Stainless steel is quite difficult to dent. I haven't tried, but I can't imagine the (much deeper) letters in copper are hard to read. And even if that's the case after 50 years in the rain, just use some sand paper to remove the green surface and you'll have green letters on a red copper plate.

We need some of the chemists in the thread to test copper stamping.
Also, apart from resistance to fire, also resistance to physical damage is to be tested: copper is way more malleable than stainless steel if I am not wrong.

New times (and technologies) give rise to new treasure seekers. ;) Who would have thought that the guy who lost his laptop with btc would want to dig in a garbage dump (I don’t remember his name, but it seems he is from England and still hopes to get permission to excavate the svali from the authorities).


Yes, maybe so, and these fears are from the category of fiction with a very low probability of what will happen. But fires also don't occur every day and in every apartment (the probability of occurrence is also not as high as it seems), but many will prefer refractory metal.

Is it not possible to choose door hinges of the quality and material you need? As I said above, they exist from stainless steel (and other metals as well).


The issue of corrosion is solved very easily - it is enough to isolate the metal from contact with air. It can be oil, paint or other substance.

You're not wrong, but is this really something to worry about? I've had all kinds of coins in my wallet my entire life, and never ever did any one of them get physically destroyed. I've used metal washers for various applications, and the worst I've seen was surface rust. I've seen surface rust on stainless steel too, but only after prolonged exposure to seawater.

You'll need to put the washer on a train track and have it run over (seriously, don't do this!) to flatten it enough to make it unreadable.

I've seen washers get run over, I mean they're often scattered around in work sites with all kinds of machinery driving over it. Unless, it's standing up, and then something very heavy drops on it. It's going to be absolutely fine. You shouldn't be putting your backup, something that's extremely important to you in harms way in the first place. I can't think of any circumstance this would be justified. Unless, you live in a concrete building, and you're worried about it falling down. I'd be more worried about gaining access to the debris to find it, rather than it being destroyed though. I mean, if you're concerned about this then I probably wouldn't have it there in the first place.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about this at all.

We've seen with the recent earthquakes (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5438537.0) how important it can be to have a seed phrase backup that can withstand some damage.
One of the reasons I like to use one washer per 24-word seed backup and large washers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.0) is that the end result is relatively large and bulky, so you could find it again in such a scenario.

Of course, it would be much easier to just go to one of your other 'off-site' backup locations, import the seed phrase and move the coins to a fresh wallet (in case someone finds your backup in the rubble).

That's a legitimate worry, but not really an issue if you have multiple backups. Unless of course, a huge region is affected by natural disasters like tsunami, earthquake, tornado and all your backups are in that affected region. Or if there are war bombings in the whole region..

This is actually a great point.
Thinking of an earthquake you are barred to access your home for a very long period of time, even if it is standing.
It it reduced in rubble, you probably wouldn't have access to the debris.
In case of a large washers pile, the probability someone see it an d understand what it is, is not negligible.


In my case, given my very personal threat vectors, I opted for a washer stack similar to the one depicted in this thread enclosed in a safe box in a bank. (multiple layers of security, underground, water around it, etc).
Not because my stack is huge, but because It is convenient to me.

True, earthquakes are possible. I guess I take that for granted, since natural disasters don't really happen a lot in the UK. except for flooding I suppose, but that entirely depends on where you live. Obviously, multiple backups should be done, but I do fear that most users will have multiple backups in either the same place or in close proximity, which you know kind of defeats the point.

Anyway, I should've probably been a little more open minded in terms of natural disasters, that was mainly ignorance from me, and potentially insensitive considering what's happening in Turkey. So, I definitely apoligise if that came across wrong. However, the point does still somewhat stand. If you're worried about it, then you could mitigate that by storing it elsewhere or by having multiple backups as mentioned. Since, you can't really mitigate natural disasters such as the earthquakes if your washer gets a direct hit from something as large as a concrete building falling down, it's likely not going to survive that especially since they'll be stacked up if you're storing in the recommended containers. The flatter it is the more chance it has, but even then I wouldn't be confident of it.

Instead of trying to find a material that could withstand that though, just remove the possibility if possible. I understand for rather large earthquakes or natural disasters that could be difficult. However, you could potentially revert to the ol' digging technique in a marked location in the middle of nowhere, where the chances of someone discovering it would be incredibly slim.

I'm actually in the process of doing it, and not just for my Bitcoin, but other things like certain credentials. However, my threat model isn't as extreme as some of the options here, since I live in a relatively stable area which doesn't have too many hazards.

When I was referring to threats I was thinking about legal ones, like government banning bitcoin possessions, or legal ones (an asset seizure from government) or a search warrant of your belongings.
Not just natural disasters, rather self-inflicted ones!

LoyceV tactics of putting paper backup inside walls wouldn't end very well in this earthquake scenario, but I don't think slightly larger washers would make much difference.
Only thing that would work in events like this is if you have multiple backups distributed in different locations, different cities, regions or even countries.
We could argue that living in house is much better option than living in tall buildings, and if you want to hide anything, digging a hole in your backyard or near your favorite tree/flower would be much better.

Stable can quickly turn to unstable, and it doesn't have to be natural disasters.
I know some people who are having big problems with immigrants, police are not doing anything about them, they are armed, they are dealing drugs, and doing all kinds of shit.
They look more like armed forces ready to be deployed on command.

They banned gold in past, so nothing would surprise me anymore.

Other locations have forest fires, high crime rates or many other risk factors. Although devastating on a local scale, natural disasters still have a low chance of occuring in most places. There are much bigger risk factors on a personal level.

Multiple backups is indeed the logical solution, but increases the risk of someone gaining access. I'm fairly certain (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1014202.0) I could just post my encrypted private keys on Bitcointalk as a backup, but I wouldn't dare do that. After many years in Bitcoin, the compromise between keeping access by myself and having someone else gain access still feels uncomfortable.

Yeah, I haven't got too many backups myself. I do have backups, but I'm comfortable with the level of backups, and I think that's the whole point of this discussion. Do what makes you feel comfortable, even though a lot of it will likely be overkill. However, to feel comfortable, I'd absolutely recommend going through the painful experience of securing your wallets. I know the pain, I've delved into security a few times in the past, and even my routine new computer setup has now reached like stupid levels of complexity, which is very likely considered impractical to a lot of users, and quite frankly not needed. However, I do it because that's what makes me feel comfortable.

Like I said though, I'm currently in the process of doing something similar to the OP with other things that aren't Bitcoin related, and I say currently very loosely, because it's very long process.

A source would be helpful. I assume this etches the metal; is it known how deep this etch is and how well it will hold up over time?
Cutting out stencils also seems a bit of a tedious process; though it may be a really viable alternative for whoever has no access to stamps (e.g. expensive due to weak local currency).

I've spent many, many hours rebooting into offline mode running from DVD, copying transactions and rebooting again when it turns out I used the wrong version or wrong fee. It's a pain indeed, and got much better since I have a spare laptop dedicated for this. But it gives peace of mind knowing for a fact that my funds are safe.

This reminds me of PCB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board) etching:
https://cdn.pcbdirectory.com/uploads/1587702764119_637232995654876508.png
After printing the seed words (on a secure offline system) on a transparent sheet, you follow one of the many PCB etching tutorials to get your text in copper on epoxy.
It's not as fire resistant as stainless steel, but looks very nice. If only you could show it to people :P

The part that is made of copper will need to be additionally covered with a layer of solder, which is applied using a soldering iron. To prevent copper from oxidizing. It's still a thin layer of copper, like foil. So, it will require additional skills and tools. Although in principle, you can varnish or something like that. Whatever is at hand will do.

I would prefer to cover this piece of epoxy with a second one with the same dimensions and connect them with bolts and nuts, having previously drilled them (strengthens the structure and protects from prying eyes). You can also stick a protective sticker.

I'm okay with copper oxidizing. It will still perform it's function.

To keep it shiny, I'd use varnish indeed.

But it can create an extra headache with cleaning the metal from oxidation. Not to mention that it will make the text hard to read. As always happens: it is easier to prevent than to eliminate the consequences.

One day you may need urgent access to the seed phrase and taking out this epoxy you will see something similar to the picture. This is a waste of time, which can already be very little.

Well, yes, this is the most important thing in the securing seed phrases. The main thing is to shine.  ;D

That looks bad, but it's not something I'd worry about when storing seed words on copper plates. It looks like someone put in a lot of effort to make it look like "mold".
This picture made me look up what happened to copper on the Titanic (https://copper.org/consumers/arts/2013/june/Rediscovering_Copper_Treasures_Titanic.php), and that shows you're much better off using bronze (if you want to store it safely on the ocean floor for a century). Lol :D

That's a joke, right.. ;D PCBs have a super thin copper layer glued onto a piece of FR4. The copper can be peeled off with just a knife. That's also why solder pads can rip off the FR4 base material when you put stress on an SMD solder joint. So, sure it is a 'metal backup' but with none of the physical properties we usually attribute to a 'metal seed phrase backup'.. ;)

I've yet to see something that beats stainless steel washers!

It's more of a gimmick, I wouldn't use it as a backup (because it's far too much work, and a dirty job to do). But I wouldn't really worry about durability when stored properly (just like I don't really worry about paper either).

I don't really worry about someone peeling my seed phrase with a knife ;) If that happens, I have a problem already.

Granite?

we're living during ice age. http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/fall12/atmo336/lectures/sec5/pleistocene.html#:~:text=We%20are%20currently%20in%20a,occur%20in%20about%2085%2C000%20years.

granite yeah

Copper washers are also widely available and cheap, but I am sure everyone already have something from copper in their home, just make sure it's pure copper, not some of the cheaper alloys.
I checked local prices for copper washers and they are very cheap, but I would always choose stainless steel if I had the option to choose, because it has much higher melting point and I think it's more durable.
It would be interesting to see stress testing for copper washers, maybe that Italian member (can't remember his name) can do another round of testing soon with more acid and fire :)

https://i.imgur.com/3tnMxhO.jpg

Those are crush washers: the edge is small, and the hole is big. I've never seen a "normal" washer made out of copper, it's too soft to be used as construction material. So there's not much space for stamping words.

Indeed. Just remind me why we are talking about copper washers, when we have another superior material in practically every aspects.
Because of malleability? Are you serious?

When you consider price, I mean the loss of strength in copper probably isn't worth it. I think copper should be left to pipes in your home, and not as a way of storing something important on them. Stainless steel, and potentially titanium are really really the only options you need. Though, personally in this application stainless steel is the superior choice, and readily available from every single hardware store.

You also get Copper Oxide from Copper, and that's not something you want when dealing with storing indentations. I mean, technically you could clean it up, but what's the point when there's other materials which aren't as prone to oxidizing in the first place?

Right, generally the more malleable it's the more prone to accidental damage. Obviously, that entirely depends what you're doing with your seeds, and what sort of risk they're potentially subjected too, but I'd like to think most of us would like one of the most durable options, especially when the price difference isn't substantial.

I think this copper line of thinking is totally useless.
I still have to figure out a single advantage of copper instead of stainless steel.
Let’s try to stick to useful ideas, not speculations about every possible permutation.

Maybe, I never saw exact size of this washers.
I don't know how soft copper is exactly, but it was used for centuries as a bronze for making swords, axes and knifes, especially during the bronze age.
If you scratch the ground in Europe you could find a bunch of  copper objects, museums are full of it, and bronze is alloy of copper and other ingredients to make it harder.

Someone else mentioned copper first, and I know it's not perfect but it's still much better than aluminum and other cheap metals.
If you already have something copper at home than it's possible to use that as custom backup, nobody will think anything suspicious about it, even if it's pipes we are talking  :D

Here is Jameson Lopp testing Copper Safe Seed plate that passed all tests with perfect score, and it costs only $28:
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/safe-seed/

Copper exists much longer than stainless steel, so it's funny to say that this is some speculation...
If you already have copper you can use it, that is an advantage for some people.

guys forget about the copper, those washers there bend with your hands...

however I haven't forgotten the project, the washers are still in acid and in water.

with copper you can go with say leather stamps and you don't need sledgehammer. $10
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61Kq2xJHwVL._AC_SX679_.jpg
those latter steel guys are fucked up slightly no?

I'm not knocking the idea, I just think there's better options. However, that entirely depends on your threat model. I mean, if you don't need to extra strength or durability of stainless steel, then sure copper is a cheap alternative. It could even be free as you say, since most households have dead legs of copper pipes where alterations have been made, and they just capped it off instead of removing it. So, yeah you could probably source it pretty cheaply. You could potentially even talk to construction site managers, and see if you can have some of their waste material. Since, they could through a ton, and a lot of it gets thrown out in their skips.

I personally prefer a more permanent solution though, and by that I mean the extra durability, and corrosion resistance that Stainless Steel offers. Honestly, I believe stainless steel to be overall the best option since it's also not that expensive, and does a good job for most environments.

I don't think anyone throws out copper, it's worth €6.50/kg (https://www.actuele-koper-prijs.nl/)! In fact, copper theft is a serious problem. So if you have old pipes, sell it, and buy washers :D

My point is how saving 10 USD or so can become a relevant aspect when securing intergenerational wealth (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg61777546#msg61777546).
Some aspect of my guide are clearly an overkill on the bare minimum, but I struggle with the concept of taking risks on the materials used for stamping.

They do! You'd be surprised by the amount of waste of construction sites. Copper isn't even the most expensive thing they throw away. You can blame the quantity surveyors, but there's a ton of waste on construction sites. I know people who have outfitted their camper van with the waste from the construction site that they work at. I'm assuming with permission :P. I'm not sure how much pipes or copper cabling weighs mind you, might take a bit to get to the price per kilogram.

However, on the topic of wastage or where you can save a little money; steel washers are everywhere in rubbish places. So, you can always ask them or even construction sites again. Washers are often tossed away after they've completed the project. I'm sure if you ask nicely you could get a freebie.

There are recycling centers all around the world that buys used metal materials, but beware that there are many different type of copper.
It is more expensive than stainless steel so it must be better for something, maybe not for backing up bitcoin seed phrase but for something else.
One example how price of copper increased a lot, on Jameson Lopp review website Safe Seed copper plate was $16 (one of the cheapest at that time), and few years later price is $28... nice inflation.

People throw out everything :D
I know people who found perfectly working good quality laptops in garbage, or they had some small error.

Copper is good at several things: conducting electricity, killing microbes, easy to work with (bending/soldering) and lasts very long (I admit: I had to Google this, because I didn't think of the last 2).
Try to make a 1 mm deep seed word in stainless steel, how many times do you need to hit it?

It's naturally antibacterial, obviously that's good for certain applications, but not so much for a seed backup. Conducting electricity isn't that helpful in this use case either. However, by no means is it a useless metal. Hence, why we still use it today for various applications. Every home likely has copper used somewhere inside it, and a lot of them have waste that they could potentially cut from it. I've seen some horrendous jobs where a contractor has come in, cut into the pipe, and inserted what is basically a cap. Then, they just leave the excess pipe there. So, free pipe. There are certain times they do this because the owner might want to expand at a later date, but sometimes it's also due to laziness or not having the means to dispose of it.

Now that depends on how strong you're, right? ;)

I do not own a 3d printer can I buy your jig from any where or will I have to buy the cryptocloak jig? I want to use bigger washers and not 25mm which are the only one that cryptocloak support. Only $10 for the jig is a good price and I do not think I can make one cheaper then that because I would need to use a company to print the jig.

Blimey! You are not Italian, otherwise in your school history you would be plenty, I mean plenty, of copper bas-reliefs. Ask the dumbest Italian about copper and the third thing that will come out after wires and drain pipes, is those stupid primary school artworks everyone had to do.


In my experience, with a heavy hammer and the jig, just one good hit is enough.

Depending on your location and whether you're comfortable with sharing it with myself, you can DM me and we'll figure something out. Don't worry about the price. ;)

I can make you a Seed Backup Jig in any size. Visit my shop here and message me your exact specifications that you want:

https://www.etsy.com/shop/BaumCrypto (https://www.etsy.com/shop/BaumCrypto)

https://i.etsystatic.com/41503409/r/il/689efd/4813988559/il_1588xN.4813988559_fcds.jpg (https://www.etsy.com/listing/1434977816)

Worldwide free shipping.

Quoting for the image to show up:
I wanted to report your post (advertising isn't allowed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0)), but it actually looks good and fits the topic. If you accept Bitcoin, you should create a topic on the Goods (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=51.0) board.

if youre a VERY good shot with serious ammo i imagine someone with the mad skillz could shoot the 1st 3 letters of the all the seed words into a single large dumbbell weight. and  to several while youre at it maybe.

i would try this myself but im not that good a shot.

i mean if youre gonna store seeds like this it would be hella more fun than using a punch set. and come on, fun is where you find it.

edit: i suppose i could mark this as sarcasm, but anyone who knows me.. well i have no comment at this time.

Can you tell me what type of plastic and 3d printing machine you are using?
Nice work and I like you are offering free shipping, but I don't like you are using Etsy that can be very restrictive and easily ban it's users, plus they don't accept Bitcoin payments  ::)
I would create website or blog to offer jigs directly, or you could offer them for BTC in Marketplace section.

as i wrote in the german thread, there is a startup in germany called SEEDOR that specializes in exactly this type (washers) of seed storage.
in this variant, instead of an anvil, a base plate made of solid stainless steel is used, which is then attached directly under the stamping jig.
the starter kit shown below is available for €149 and comes in a fine box with magnetic closure.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/blobf22eadf91f867fdd.png
https://www.seedor.io/en (https://www.seedor.io/en)

That's a lot of money just to make it look nice. It's not as if you can use it to show off, so I'd rather go for a much cheaper hammer and letters.
Worse than the price is that the seller knows exactly what you need it for, unlike when you buy tools at a hardware store.

agree with you on both points and would definitely not order it through the seller.
but that's also the thing like e.g. with a ledger purchase - who orders this, has then certainly invested 95% in cryptos and would like to store them on this hw...

It's funny, isn't it? It is one thing when it is a hammer for the most ordinary driving of nails and quite another when a hammer is used to engrave the seed-phrase. This is some kind of magic: the hammer instantly becomes "golden" for the buyer. Do their marketers have the philosopher's stone that the alchemists were looking for to turn lead hammer into gold. :D

Such are the simple laws of the market: cunning sellers are trying to cash in on naive buyers.

Marketing has always worked like that. Many specialized shops sell items at several times the price of other shops, but people still buy them. I'm not judging them, it's totally fine. Supply and demand is a free market, and people love to buy "the idea".

We all agree on this.
The main purpose of this guide was actually meant toward OpSec.
The main advantage of this being you don’t leak information about you holding coins to anyone, significantly reducing your threat model.
Invaluable advantage in the future.

That looks a bit too expensive for my taste, and I saw similar much cheaper offers for stuff like that in Europe including hammer.
Here are few examples I bookmarked before and this can be ordered from England and shipped worldwide, they even have kits with titanium, stainless steel, copper and brass.
Lots of cool Bitcoin related stuff on their website:
https://hooe.io/

PS
I am not advertising/recommending this website, so please do your own research.

Bitcoiner Andrew Fraser has now proven how important it is to keep your 12/24 seed words safe and not to make them visible to anyone (even in a scrambled order).
with the help of his software BTCRecover and his gaming-gpu he was able to hack a seedphrase consisting of 12 words within 25 minutes and collected 0.001BTC as a reward.
but the whole thing had an educational character, because there was the tweet below on which the 12 mixed seed words were shown and the user was curious when the corresponding wallet would be 'swept' - this was to increase the attention of the seed storage again

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/blob26647d277d69d54f.png
https://twitter.com/w_s_bitcoin/status/1651025394055749632 (https://twitter.com/w_s_bitcoin/status/1651025394055749632)

and here is the proof of the solved seed, which Andrew then provided in his tweet to the user 'Wicked':

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Func9j-XsAAvA2w?format=png&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FundBW2X0AAEOkb?format=png&name=small
https://twitter.com/dAnconiaMining/status/1651093812444364806 (https://twitter.com/dAnconiaMining/status/1651093812444364806)
https://mempool.space/address/bc1ql5y3qz7jksm3v5szs2rha9unlqu90ks3fg899r (https://mempool.space/address/bc1ql5y3qz7jksm3v5szs2rha9unlqu90ks3fg899r)

I saw the Twitter thread, and I am puzzled by the speed at which those funds were recovered. I have been told that a critical point was the fact he’s charged the UTXO containing the sats, speeding by several orders of magnitude the balance check.

I am going to investigate on this.

It is indeed interesting that the seed could be put in the right order in this short amount of time. Since the words however are all known and not one word was missing (how it usually is) it does not surprise me to much.

Usually you have a 2048^12 chance to find the correct seed which is impossible. Since the 12 words are known you narrow this down to 12^12. Since key generators can usually check a few million keys per second I think you can find the key pretty fast. What interests me is how he could also check which is the correct wallet, since he also needed to check if the wallet contains bitcoin. What kind of software can do that this quickly?

I believe there are software tools available that can check the balance of a Bitcoin wallet by verifying the correctness of the seed phrase. I think it's called "Bitcoin wallet Checker"

These tools can also help identify if a wallet contains any funds or not, In fact it uses blockchain data. However, i would like to add that some people who engage in unauthorized access to accounts may use these types of software tools for malicious purposes such as cracking accounts and so on.

Actually, it's "only" 12!, since you can use each word only once. That's 18613 times less than 12^12.

Yes that’s right! In any case quite impressive to be able to solve this in a few minutes.

Could be actually a nice tactic to put the seed words in your storage container in the wrong order. If you ever need them you will be able to get them in the right order pretty quickly. An attacker that has no computer skills however will take probably several days to perform this task.

I think this is a horrible idea.
Just remember that keeping things simple is the best way to avoid future disasters.
Putting words in the wrong order add an extremely complicated, yet unnecessary layer of complexity.
Just remember that you are not saving the backup for yourself, but for someone who probably needs to recover your coins quite securely and quickly.

In a brute force attack on the seed of a bitcoin wallet, specialized software generates many random word combinations that could make up the wallet's seed.  These combinations are tested one after the other to see if they produce the correct private key that corresponds to the public address of the bitcoin wallet being accessed.

 Essentially, the software uses the hashing algorithm used to generate the private key, to calculate the private key corresponding to each of the generated combinations.  The corresponding private key is then used to unlock the bitcoin wallet and access the funds.

You are right about that, but I was thinking about this scenario: you have one copy of your seed word well secured in a far away bank safe that can not easily reached. This bank vault will however be opened by your family members when you die and there will be no issue for them to use that seed to get to your bitcoins.
The second copy of your seed however may be located in your house and is possibly in a high risk of being stolen/found at some point. Still many people keep that second copy of a seed in their house out of convenience. For that second copy you could potentially use that tactic. But yes this is a specific scenario that may not be valid for every user.

This is the point.
What is this second seed for?
Why do you need to complicate things, exposing your seeds, or part of it if you already have one securely stored away?

washer plate would be one of the best storage object of seed phrase, but to keep it safe is anothet thing. Because you have to keep it where children will not reach and use it to play and lost the plates. So I will also advise to store the phrase in another object preferably copy out and safe it in place that is secured.
Now my question is when the seed phrase is written on the washers and when you place it in the washers stand or there about, and when you want to use it, won't you forget the words in the sequentialal order? Because of thing (plate rearrangement) I am trying to understand from the washer which the words are written and placed on the plate randomly. Because one washer plate can contain two to three words or is it that one place for one word?

What problems can be with the storage of washers? This is one of the universal ways in terms of protection from the negative effects of the external environment.

Who in their right mind would keep their seed phrase around their kids, or do you think a toy box is a good place for a purse full of cash money? :)

In which object, for example, would you recommend storing a phrase? Any ideas?

In order not to forget the sequence of words, in what order it should be, you just need to mark each word. That is, assign a serial number. I don't think this could be a problem.

What are you talking about? Understood nothing. First you talk about the washer and then immediately about the Bible.

There are no individual restrictions. If you have big washers, then you can put 2-3 words on one washer. Of course, given enough space for this. But in the version that was proposed in this topic, 1 word can fit on 1 washer (2 words, if limited to the first four letters).

As I said one seed is secured very well and the other one is more accessible. I would never just keep one copy of my seed phrase. This seems enough, but actually after being in bitcoin for 10 years I noticed that at some point maybe you loose interest in bitcoin for some years and forget about your seeds. Maybe you move and don’t have the time to hide it very well in the new home etc.
to me it is a good option to mix it up and I think I will do that just for the fun  :D

Anyone can do that for free, since I posted the OpenSCAD source code for such a parametric jig (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.0)... :)
Maybe not as pretty, but functional nonetheless and free.

The print files are very useful and would have definitely made it easier for me to create the backup. I think this is the point where I will need to order finally a 3D printer 8)

What are the stamps that you used for those devices, as there are so many different stamp types with different dimensions?
 

I believed the stamps are alphabetically design with the numeric figures. Yes of course, they are all design according to the plate size with different dimensions. Though I have not seen but I am trying to view it from of names on iron frame in school which I have seen. And the stamps are just like the same design with the washer stamps.

Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.

You can print it from friends who have a 3D printer or order printouts of parts in different workshops (people) so that they don't understand what this part is needed for. Of course, the bitcoin text and BTC-logo will need to be removed from the print files (not to print).

In fact, you can do without a jig. You won't be competing in calligraphy with stamps, will you? :)

 
As you might guess, the stamps are the most common standard sizes, matched to the dimensions of the washers. With the choice of the ratio of the size of the stamps and washers, well, you should be able to cope. This is a task for schoolboys.

Jameson Lopp, who worked as inspiration for this guide, published an interesting blog post:

How to Bury a Bitcoin Seed Phrase Backup (https://blog.lopp.net/how-bury-bitcoin-seed-phrase-backup/)

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

The project was extremely successful as he stated in this long post!
A lot of lessons were learned here!

Indeed, the container from PVC sewer fittings, parts of which were purchased from a nearby hardware store, looks amazing. Surprisingly affordable, cheap, quite strong and reliable, capable of protecting seed phrases from the influence of an aggressive environment, and also not attracting too much attention when buying components of a future container. Also, easy to make.

But I'd rather make some changes. Instead of a credit card-sized plate, I would use stainless steel washers popular in this topic, fastened together with a rod and bolted on both sides. And already this design, I would put it in a PVC container, selected by size. This would reduce the overall dimensions. But this is a matter of taste, so to speak.

"I did not leave any physical markings when I buried my backup. Nor did I create a map to find it. This would have been a very poor inheritance plan, as no one but myself knew about this little project." - Jameson Lopp wrote in the same article.

And how about writing down the gps coordinates of the location of the buried container? To facilitate future searches for myself (or heirs). Should do this or turn on paranoid mode and not record the location coordinates? :)

Let's visit the Paranoia Club, I heard they have some new fancy cocktails to serve.  ;D

Can you rely on your GPS device to show you non-spoofed or altered coordinates? We've seen this in some areas in times of trouble. As GPS accuracy varies, you don't get such precise coordinates for others to find your treasure easily if that's necessary. But of course it's better than having nothing. Analog offline recording of the GPS coordinates is likely key here.

Taking a picture of your site is like digital processing your treasure's location with digital devices. You likely end up storing such information on some device that gets online and from that point your treasure's safety might become compromised. You can use some hopefully not changing landmarks and some offline tools and measures to pinpoint your treasure's location good enough so recovery for you or your beloved ones is possible.

You can still draw an analog map like the old pirates did. Treasure maps are fun! Geo cache, anyone? (The last: I'm obviously joking, but hey...)

Now I'm curious how it will look like after 10,000 years, when archaeologists dig up someone's old Bitcoin seed phrase (by then worth a mansion on another planet). I expect the plastic to become brittle within a few centuries, and eventually start falling apart. The stainless steel might last longer.

The problem is, I live in the Netherlands. Every square cm is cultivated.

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers  underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

My own seed is safely stashed away in a box located in the garage, where it blends among numerous boxes, all full with abundance of washes.

Every setup has pro and cons.

Firstly, in the article is explained how to dig your seed deep enough not to be exploited by a metal detector (and also is explained that you should bury it somewhere not beaten by that class of lobbyist)

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?

Just to say the security mix is peculiar for each of us.

Some people never throw anything away ;) That only works if you don't buy too much unnecessary stuff, otherwise you'll turn into a hoarder. I'd say a box in a garage is a good place, usually those places store decades worth of items that "may come in handy some day", so it doesn't stand out.

---

---

The biggest risk is probably someone going through old junk looking for a few washers to fit something.

Yeah, of course if you are Marie Kondo, such a box would be a very bad place to hide something, while I know people never throw anything (I say anything) away because “it’s a memory of something good and I want to keep it”.

Again, security is extremely personal!

He is security expert who really thinks well before doing something for improving security for his Bitcoin.
I personally wouldn't choose to bury anything like he did, but there are plenty of other options we can choose, and I like stealth option more.
There is nothing wrong in combination of different methods, especially for people who are using multisig setup.

Detectors can easily be tricked with decoy junk, and there are some materials that makes anything almost invisible for metal detectors, if you know what you are doing.

He probably wouldn't do it, unless he gets amnesia, but there is a good chance his family members could do that.
 

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.

Really? Darling can't clean up the mess in her room, let alone the garage. :)

On the other side of financial independence lies financial responsibility, expressed in ensuring the safe storage of financial assets.

Deceive with garbage from various metals? You have not seen what remains after these diggers: bare earth without grains of metal. Skilful and experienced seekers will find everything in the soil, down to the last paper clip. Therefore, burying a seed-container according to Jameson Lopp's method, in a public place, is not such a good solution. If random searchers with a metal detector wander into that place, then seed phrases can be found. Neither the depth of the burrow (unless you dig deeper) nor the metall debris around will stop them. But the use of invisible materials is already an interesting solution that should be developed. The main thing is that it is resistant to the external environment, just like metal (stainless) or close to it.

What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?

I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons :D

You should assume the printer knows what you are printing.
Note that you are not printing the seed, just a Jig.
The attacker would know you printed a jig to stamp washers with a seed phrase but would have no access to the seed itself.
As far as my own experiment, I bought the two jigs, and I am pretty sure the ones who printed me those objects had no idea of what they were doing.
So in case the attacker would beat them, not me.

If I'd do the same to my wife's old, unused shoes, I'm dead :P
I would expect most couples to know not to throw out each other's stuff without asking.

Good point :D Or use your manly strength: put 400 kg of crap on top. Or mount the washers (still my favourite). Use them to hang something from the ceiling. If you ever need your backup, you'll be forced to clear out the garage first. That's good against impulsive selling :P

Then what? When you need your backup, you spray your wall until seed words appear in mold?

Rookie mistake.
There is no such thing as ”unused shoes” for a woman.

I guess no one will ever think that someone has bitcoin wallet and hides seed phrases behind the wallpaper. When you need your backup, you just remove the wallpaper from the wall. If you want to delete your seed phrases, you'll repaint the wall, buy a new wallpaper and continue life.

Depends on the shoe, she will definitely make a drama out of it and will try to get a new one(s) from you because of your mistake :D When you buy her an expensive shoe(s), she will definitely reconcile with you :D

By the way, there is no such thing as unused shoes for a man, as women say. For example, tell your wife, who has ten times more shoes than you, that you need to buy a new one and she will quickly reply that you have enough, if anyone needs new shoes, it's her because she hasn't bought them for six months :D

To the best of my knowledge, all major / popular 3D printer models either ship with or their hardware supports open-source firmware like Marlin (https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/) or Klipper (https://github.com/Klipper3d/klipper/).

They both do store the 3d model that you want to print (it's a feature), but you can format the SD card afterwards or just delete the file. I don't think they have any hidden 'logs' of models, but since they are open-source everyone can check for themselves.

Marlin also doesn't have any internet access, as far as I know (haven't used it in a while). So there is no uplink to anyone's servers whatsoever, i.e. no risk of anyone knowing what you are printing as long as you own your own 3d printer.

Bottom line though: you don't need any printed jigs. You can just do the washer backup by hand. :)

Some thoughts about alternative versions of the Seed Phrase Washers prompted me to write this post.

Washers are undoubtedly a good solution, but what other solutions can be found or made?

The simplest (to write seed phrases) shape is a rectangle. You can make (or buy) small plates that can be connected to each other using a ready-made hole (or made yourself) as in the figure below. The size can be selected optionally.


Using several of these plates will allow to reduce the size of a “classic” plate like this one and fit not all 12 / 24 words on 1 plate, but only 4-6 (or less), for example. In one hole there will be a bolt with a nut on a permanent basis, which will hold the stack of “credit cards” together and allow it to be rotated around its axis in order to view the text on the lower plates, and in the second there will be a bolt and nut that fixes it. For greater reliability, you can make 4 holes in the corners and fasten them.


In theory, this method can be used with [100 dots] seed phrase backup (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5466510.msg62832929#msg62832929) for the same purposes - reducing the size of the physical backup, as well as strengthening  the structure due to the presence of several plates that provide additional rigidity and impact resistance. Add to this the fact that if no information is applied to the top plate, the result is a closed structure containing a phrase (in the form of text or dots - it doesn’t matter) inside and inaccessible to prying eyes.

The next option is furniture fittings. A smaller version of the solution above. I'm not sure if there is a stainless steel version, but this design can be selected as a sample and made (given to be made) yourself.


One plate - one word (or two, if applied on both sides). How is this better than washers? And the fact that you don’t need any additional devices, like a Seed Backup Jig.


But I would prefer something similar to this (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002367850110.html). In the same way, they are connected with 2 bolts and a nut and form a fixed structure + small sizes.


With some imagination (straight hands handmade skills and tools) can come up with different solutions for making physical / metall seed phrase backup.

Are you refering to something like this: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/crypto-keys/ ?  This could be another option But of course I reckon you want to do a custom construction and besides, their website is currently down.

Not exactly "like this". Only partly. Thanks for the link to this article.

I wouldn't carry the seed phrase plates around as a keychain. Firstly, it is easy to read all the phrases, and secondly, when the structure is connected on both sides and fixed (bolt + nut), it forms a more durable thing. One of the photos from the link above shows that as a result of the crash test, some of the plates were bent. It will be more difficult to bend them in a bunch, although this doesn't directly affect the readability of the text, but it is better to be on the safe side and provide for the possibility of the plates “withstanding” a greater load. As much as possible.


Something like this: on both sides, the holes are tightened with a bolt and nut. The number of plates varies depending on individual preference.

It is advisable to use nuts with a nylon insert to avoid self-loosening (although I doubt that this will happen).

You need a lot of vibrations for self-loosening a nut. From the tests I've seen, nylon inserts help a bit but given enough vibrations, it'll still get loose. None of this should be a problem for your seed word storage though, unless maybe if you store it on top of your car engine for years.

Very nice.
In my opinion, washers are more ubiquitous than metal plates and may have a final form factor that is easier to conceal.
Yet, your solution is perfect, as it uses commonly available materials and preserves the holder's privacy.
Of course, the weakest link in my guide is the jig, which is necessary for my method, while you found an excellent alternative for those who haven't been able to find one.

Security models are very different as different attack vectors are possible: there isn't a "better solution" for everyone as scenarios are different for everybody. This guide is excellent for those who want to rely on pieces you can find in any hardware store.

.

If the vibrations of the nuts cause a problem for someone, then you can use one trick: instead of one nut per bolt, tighten two nuts. You will be surprised to see how reliable it will be. Check this out for authenticity sometime.


I agree, the washers probably seem universal due to their form factor, but this also imposes some limitations. But there are still some advantages, one of which I wanted to highlight. This is an opportunity to enclose a stack of washers in a metal capsule tube to provide greater durability and protection from environmental influences, while at the same time providing some camouflage. Although a stack of bolted plates can be placed in a metal box, which will have similar characteristics.

I don't think plates are any harder to find than washers. Everything is publicly available. The choice between a washer or a plate will depend only on individual preferences. In general, systemically, both options are not very different from each other.

I wouldn't say there are perfect solutions. More like an alternative. As for jig, can do without it by showing resourcefulness or patience (without hand tremors :)).

That’s right, it’s impossible to protect yourself from “all attack vectors” and have to try to protect yourself from the maximum possible for you.

I used Flange bolts and Flange nuts to prevent self-loosening a nut.

---

I have made backup seed phrases using M8 Flat Washer 1.5mm (galvanized iron plate) and 2.0mm (304 Stainless Steel M8 x 24 x 2.0mm).
Here are some of the equipment and results that I have made:


The example seed listed above is only for initial testing, while a backup of the original seed phrase using the washer is stored in the safe box.

Nope, I saw it on Youtube too: given enough vibrations, it still gets loose. If you want to be absolutely certain it doesn't unwrap itself, do what my motorcycle uses on it's axis: drill a hole, and place a split pen through it.

Can someone explain to me why you think your metal backup will be exposed to such an amount of vibrations that you fear the nut may become loose? Come on, that seems nuts to me. You must have some pretty obscure hiding locations for your backups which have vibes of such strength.

Seriously, at most I'd apply some strong Loctite to secure and be good with it. For tamper detection some glitter and hot glue and a picture of the resulting glitter pattern.

There is no harm in paying attention to the slightest possibility that could happen, such as the nut loosening and falling off the bolt, whether due to vibration, impact or other causes.
Some testing methods for the durability of seed phrase storage media can be tested against heat stress at a specific temperature, water resistance, corrosion resistance, shock resistance, etc. All of this aims to minimize the loss of seed phrase data.

Some Jameson Loop testing:
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-iv/ (https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-iv/)

Of course it is.
The seed phrase is also illegal:

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/13/RsXbd.jpeg

Sorry, I had to try anyway
Very beautiful setup. Love the earplug addition to my "overkill" equipment.

I usually give warnings, especially to beginners, to never disclose their seed phrases to the public.

---

The seed is not the BIP39 type but rather a seed phrase I got from Electrum when creating a wallet in the Electrum - Bitcoin Wallet (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3664755.0) thread I made.


Please test the seed again on Electrum; you will get the same wallet address as mine.

---

Thank You. At least earplugs can reduce the noise when tapping the letters/numbers on the washer.

My bad, I didn't follow all the links back to the original message.
I confirm the address is valid and sadly empty.
Apparent there are never been any transactions on each of those addresses


https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/16/RhATT.png



I didn't bother adding this as the noise when stamping the washers wasn't very annoying.

For some people, they may not need earplugs, especially those who are used to sounds such as factory machines or others.
I use these earplugs because when I stamp the washer with quite a lot of letters & numbers, it disturbs my hearing a little.

And its use is also inspired by the following Cryptotag tutorial video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKgeItLZL-M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKgeItLZL-M).
(The Cryptotag Thor starter kit even includes earplugs in the box content packaging: https://cryptotag.io/products/thor-starter-kit/ (https://cryptotag.io/products/thor-starter-kit/)).

For the record: nobody "gets used to" loud noise. Hearing damage collects over the years, and every exposure to loud sound adds up. It might take years before you realize it's too late.

Generally, a sound with a volume level of 30 dB - 85dB is a safe sound for the human ear.
If the sound produced by the letter knocker is above 85dB in one beat,
it will interfere with hearing, and usually when exposed to noise for too long the ears will ring.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/17/R4LE9.jpeg

Earplug is a nice addition to the set. Just because.
Even gloves wouldn’t be necessary, but I liked the “full gear experience”.
I am only jealous because I didn't think to protective glasses and, as said, earplugs.


What is a “gum shot” ???

This is when a bubble inflated with bubble gum bursts. That's what a “gum shot” is. :)


In fact, every exposure to sound destroys the “ears,” the resource of which differs from person to person. In the presence of congenital defects and abnormalities, the destruction process occurs faster. Wait, what are we discussing? We're not on a medical forum. :)
Does the sound of metal hitting metal when engraving text on a plate cause unpleasant sensations and discomfort? Then use instead of a hammer, for example, a wooden mallet or something similar ("rubber" mallet). Also, in a small and enclosed room the unpleasant effect will be felt more.

"Soft" metals, such as aluminum, if used as seed phrase plates, will ring less when struck. This is just a note.

Safety first, any kind of protection for eyes, ears, and face would be very useful.

LOL, apparently it was a typo, the correct one is Gun Shot which produces 140dB in one shot.
Therefore all shooting athletes or those who learn to shoot use earplugs to avoid the sound effects of the Gun Shot.
https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/19/RWTzd.png

Regarding the security of the seed phrase that ends with personal security equipment.
Some people are sometimes too sensitive to sounds that are quite annoying especially if they are repeated.

Replacing the hammer with wood or rubber, will only reduce the sound effect slightly, but it will still be felt because of the metal clashing with steel.

The preferences of each person who practices it may differ regarding the sound produced during the washer stamping process. fillippone was not bothered by the sound during the process, while I felt a little annoying noise during the stamping process, so I used earplugs to reduce the noise.

Wooden or rubber mallets are not suitable for metal stamping work. I even used a Stone hammer to get more pressure when stamping.

Please try to make backup seed phrases with washer material. At the same time, try using a wooden mallet to find out whether it suits the washer stamping process.

Wooden hammers are suitable for woodcarving jobs like mine, they don't require too much pressure and don't produce loud noises.
It muffles the sound a bit.

But about the stone hammer, I just found out, that the material is indeed made of stone.
How does it compare with iron hammers that are both used for the washer stamping process?
https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/21/TZQ23.jpeg https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/21/TZAiD.jpeg https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/21/TZwYG.jpeg https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/10/21/TZGRw.jpeg

                 Stone                                                  Iron                                              Wood                                       Rubber



Regarding which one is good and which one produces the least sound so as not to interfere with hearing, it is the choice of each.
The noise level of a person's ears is also different, but the ultimate goal is to choose the best washer material so that it will be more durable and use stamping washers and supporting tools that are comfortable to use in the process.

The surface of the Stone Hammer that touches the Letter bits during the seed phrase stamping process is wider than the Claw Hammer, thereby minimizing missed hits.
The stone hammer is also heavier, so the pressure when hitting can be more optimal than when using a Claw Hammer.

When I practice backing up seed phrases, washers made from stainless steel can be harder than those made from galvanized iron plates (the thickness of the material also affects), so you need to hit harder so the stamping results can be clearer.

While on the subject of hammers: I wouldn't use a wooden hammer to hit a small letter punch, or any hard metal object. You'll just damage your hammer. Rubber hammers too.

While going to extremes with hammers to secure a seed phrase: I've seen good things about titanium hammers (on Youtube, I never tried it). It's supposed to be lighter, vibrates less, and transfers more of it's energy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpQmSX2Uznk). But I assume you're not going to do this for 8 hours per day, so it really doesn't matter much.

I took the opportunity to look into this video. Let's put the vibration thing aside, because it's more important for people who work a lot with such tools on a daily base. If someone doesn't know what to do with his surplus of money, maybe get a titanium hammer. You could buy a bigger hammer head so you won't miss the letter stamp while still being lighter than a steel hammer. (Ear plugs will be the way cheaper solution if you mind the impact noise.)

By my own experience with stamping washers: the more mass (inertia!) you have where you put the washer on the better it is, ideally an anvil or something similar sufficiently heavy and suitable from the scrap yard. You can even put the anvil on something that isn't too soft but provides some dampening. It's physics, laws of nature, transfer of momentum, the ratio of mass of your hammer and the anvil.

I wouldn't use a wood, rubber or stone hammer to hit a metal stamping tool to imprint metal washers. Use a steel hammer that can transfer enough punch comfortably and allows you to hit the stamping tool with confidence. Have a rigid support surface of way more mass than your hammer where you put the washers on (be it an anvil or some heavy (cubish) block of metal from the scrap yard).

My vice-with-anvil weighs about 30 kg, and my hammer head for hitting things like this weighs 1 kg. Just don't miss (I was annoyed by the guy in the Youtube video missing the nail quite a few times).

Hey everyone! this is my first post in the forum, and it's a pity I didn't find this thread sooner...  ::)

I just wanted to express my excitement about the topic of seed stamping on washers, and congratulate the OP @fillippone for his remarkable work on this subject! you have researched a lot indeed.

The point is, I was VERY interested on this topic last year, the blockmit got quite famous in 2020-2021, because it was developed by a spanish guy, and he disclosed it on a podcast which is quite famous, so many people in the local bitcoin community discovered it as well. I wish I had seen this post because it would have saved me maaany hours and mistakes...

Anyway, what happened is the following: I bought the blockmit, and I tried it, but my results were "mediocre", I mean, the words were readable more or less, but some of the letters were not uniformly engraved, I even stroke my thumb TWICE... The central part of the blockmit used to fly away after a hard strike... idk, the idea was good, but I thought it was quite improvable (maybe I did not have the most appropriate tools either, even though I had many).

I wanted to get a new solution on my own, so... over the past year, I've delved deep into this subject, conducting extensive research, and I've got to say, it's been a very  enriching experience. I had already skills on 3D modelling and mechanism design due to my day job, so I decided to get into retail 3D printers (there are some professional ones at my work place, but this is still a hobby, and I wanted to develop it on my own), and decided to design an improved version of the blockmit. There are many variants of the blockmit on the internet, I ended up designing my solution from scratch, and after many trials and errors, and picking many ideas, I got this:

https://youtu.be/FJwL2IVzqLA (https://youtu.be/FJwL2IVzqLA)

I called it the BitJig, here is a render:

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/02/04/vZHGT.png

And this is a real image:

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/02/04/vS0KZ.jpeg

There were some designs with grabbing mechanisms, and I decided to implement a similar one, I created a base with an inserted metal disc, so you do not need an anvil anymore, some dents to facilitate the grab and release process of the washer, and everything fits tightly. In my opinion the results were far better, this is an example, as you can see you don't have to strike the hammer with that much force (note that there is a hole at the base to place a nut inside, so the washer is placed on top of a thick steel disc, and a nut, to prevent the base from breaking):

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/02/04/vZU7w.jpeg

The base, apart from being metal reinforced is made of solid PLA+ or ABS, and it withstands the hammer impact quite well. The washers are grabbed tightly and fixed, which facilitates the process a lot.

In the end, I liked it so much that I thought that it could be something "sellable" or "marketable", I was using it by myself, but decided to sell it on ETSY to see if there were people interested, earlier this year. And even more important, I decided to do several derived products, based on HIDING the washers, inside vases, flower pots, and even a fake drain for the garden (I have some more in mind as well)

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/02/04/vZuLa.png

I had to do a couple rebrandings, but I kept this name (HideYourKeys) in the end.

And... I thought that the ETSY store was fine, but it could be improved, so I designed a website as well (it is my first website, so if you have any feedback or suggestions I would appreciate it)

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/02/04/vZweo.png

https://hideyourkeys.io/



And that is pretty much it, I am surprised that there are these many people interested in this kind of seed backup, imho it is the best and cheapest way, I wanted to offer something in a reasonable price range, (below 50€ without the hammer, the same or less than as if you were to buy it in any local store), which could compete with the expensive solutions like cryptotag, billfodl and so on... which double or triple such price or even more (cryptotag thor was 350€...). And I wanted something which was easy to use, with decent results.

I have stamped MANY washers, so I can give many pieces of advice to people who are trying yo engrave the words on washers, I would really love to discuss this topic on the thread because as you can see, I am quite passionate about it.

And... with regards to new ideas, I have been testing many things, for instance:

- brass washers: they are softer and easier to engrave, but they are very expensive compared to steel ones. They have a lower melting point as well...
- new objects to hide the washers in
- I am also investigating a solution that might be even cheaper! I will share the outcome one I see that it is feasible  ::) (I will keep it a secret until then) - This was done already, I called it BitJig Mini, it is a Jig which allows you to engrave M6 washers, far more compact and cheaper. This is a comparison of sizes:

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/02/04/vZZK1.jpeg

The Jig is slightly smaller, but the inner parts are redesigned to engrave M6 washers. Here you can see some results, same 3mm stamps are used, the letters are closer but perfectly readable imo:

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/02/04/vZCHm.jpeg

So I am eager to see your thoughts on this,  @fillippone  if you live in Europe I could send you a BitJig so I can get your feedback, I would really appreciate it, as you might notice some issues that I have not, despite my research. You used a better version of the blockmit though, so that explains the better results than what I had.

Looking forward to your thoughts and ideas! (Sorry for my English, I am aware of the fact that it is not perfect)

From my own experience from stamping mnemonic recovery words into washers I find it crucial to have a sturdy, solid, heavy and non-flexing base where the washers are placed on. So I wouldn't recommend to avoid using an anvil or some big enough solid block of scrap metal with some suitable flat surface(s). The heavier, the better...

You want to have enough mass and thus inertia that your hammer stroke energy doesn't dissipate to move or flex stuff around, except for the stamp tool letter to dig into the washer. Any flexing dissipates stroke power to wrong places.

Personally, I didn't find the need for a jig. My preference was to avoid having to buy stuff and ship it to my address that would reveal any needs for Bitcoin related storage (I don't have a 3D printer or an "anonymous" delivery address, I'd have at least to reveal my real name for any of my alternatives to my home address).

What did I use? An old hefty anvil (had it already), double sided thin sticky tape to hold the washer in place, eyeballed positioning of the letter stamp tool and a not too small comfy hammer with which I hardly can miss to hit the stamp tool, some practice to know how much energy to put into a stroke (washers are cheap, no need to avoid some practice). I couldn't care less if some letters weren't aligned perfectly.

None of my fingers were harmed, that's a plus, too. With a heavier hammer you don't need to swing it much around to put decent stroke energy into action. This helps to aim properly and hit only what needs to be hit, not your fingers but the stamp tool.

I totally agree.
While stamping, a big part of the process is keeping everything in the right place. I bought a small anvil, and I think it was enough. But of course, a bigger one would have done no harm.


The jig I used was basically without any base, and I fixed the washer with simple scotch to the jig base. I have a sense that having a base would cause irreparable damage to the bottom of the jig.
Do you reckon the is not the case and that the whole jig is sturdy enough to sustain such mechanical stress?

but why vise anvil is not capable on this? not 30kg at least

I am not that familiar with such an anvil.
The main point is that you should recycle what you get in your tools shed in order to minimise the footprint of your purchases and the associated privacy leak.
Vise anvil, standard anvil, sturdy metal base, whatever works for you.

In my case, with regards to the base, it has a hole so you can place a metal nut, therefore the washers are placed on top of a steel disc which is on top of a nut, so it withstands the strikes quite well.

I also made a CNC'd base, in anodized aluminum, which is solid, and that will not break for sure. That one is not for sale even though I sent out some prototypes (to testers and customers), but I am not sure if it is worth it if the regular one with the nut works fine as well.


If you use a jig without a base, and you have an anvil, that should work fine(ofc you will not break the anvil), but in my case I was trying to get rid of the anvil. The solution I made works well on top of a kitchen wooden board, or even these thick kitchen plastic boards for example. Back when I was using the blockmit jig, I did not have an anvil, and even when I got one, the inner part flew after every strike (I did not use tape though). The solution with the anvil, I am sure it works fine, but you need many "ancillary" items, and I was focusing on something "simpler" or "cleaner" I guess.