The default Wasabi Wallet coordinator will start censoring "illegal" UTXOs

[pooya87]

It's not profitable for them to develop or run a decentralized server since in this case they wouldn't collect any fees.

Sadly this has been a plague that the cryptocurrency world has been suffering from. Developers who want to ensure a way to make money from the "open source" project they are producing. We have altcoins that premine, run ICO fundraising,... we have DEXes that are centralized because the developer wants to earn money from fees, ... and now we have mixer that wants to make money and is censoring transactions!

It's kinda philosophical but strongly believe one of the reasons why Bitcoin is so successful is that Satoshi didn't create it to make money. Conversely one of the reasons why so many altcoins failed or are failing is because they did the opposite.

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[buwaytress]

Things like this should definitely be expected to come at some point if you think realistically. But yea — kinda earlier than expected, but at the same time I think we already saw mixers get pursued by the authorities so I guess I'm not THAT surprised.

Anyway, wish some devs would just fork the privacy coinjoin stuff and integrate it to Bitcoin Core; if it's possible, that is.

Yeah, I think you, I and anyone paying attention will probably have to expect the worst when it comes to mixers (and I'm sure you guys all know what I'm talking about), and we'd probably have to expect it sooner rather than later. The only hopeful thing I can see is that some mixers still operate a little less visibly than the likes of Wasabi. And, in acknowledgment of above discussions on commercial/profiteering interest, some still choose to operate with clearer goals that would not see them give in to regulator pressure without a fight.

[ABCbits]

--snip--
In other words if Wasabi team were so worried about providing users with a privacy enhancing method, instead of "bending the knee" they should have eliminated the need for a centralized server.

It would be great if it's possible. But i doubt it's easy task, especially with large participant.

If they really hate it, at least they should give user option to use different coordinator. I expect someone will try to run their own coordinator.

Actually, there has always been an option in Wasabi Wallet to connect to your own or any other existing coordinator to be less reliant on the Wasabi team that runs the biggest coordinator. Yeah, the reason most people have been using zkSNACKs coordinator is that it is the most popular one. The more popular the coordinator is, the bigger crowd it attracts. The bigger the crowd is, the easier it is to obfuscate your transactions and harder to attack the wallet with Sybil attacks.

I know such option exist, but last time i checked,
1. You need to use terminal to change the coordinator. It's not user friendly and most users don't know such feature exist.
2. The documentation never state you can use different coordinator.

I feel it's meant for debugging/advance user rather than additional feature for all users due to reason i mentioned above.

Here is a fork of Wasabi Wallet called https://chaincase.app/, which is available on iOS and which is running its own coordinator. You can connect your Wasabi Wallet to this coordinator using the following method: https://github.com/chaincase-app/chaincase/discussions/119

I've heard that wallet before, but does anyone know how often CoinJoin process happen? Waiting few days for single CoinJoin isn't practical.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Pardon my ignorance — but how hard is it to run such coordinators in a private manner? At the very least private enough for the authorities to have a very hard time in finding you if it's the case that you didn't comply.

Depends how private you want to be I guess. No reason you can't run a server over Tor and make all users connect to it over Tor as well, though. Or there is the decentralized option which pooya87 outlined where everyone becomes their own server, so to speak.

In fact, they need to cooperate with blockchain analysis to obtain information about "taint" UTXOs.

Well, they only need to cooperate in this sense to have the blockchain analysis entity feed them data about which UTXO's to block. But as I said, if they cooperate like this then it won't be long before that cooperation becomes a two way street, with them feeding data back to the blockchain analysis entity.

I know such option exist, but last time i checked,
1. You need to use terminal to change the coordinator. It's not user friendly and most users don't know such feature exist.
2. The documentation never state you can use different coordinator.

I feel it's meant for debugging/advance user rather than additional feature for all users due to reason i mentioned above.

All the more reason Wasabi should do things differently here. Rather than saying "We will block UTXOs, suck it up and deal with it", they should have said "We are being forced to block UTXOs against our will. As a result, here is a link to the zkSNACKs coordinate source code, here is a guide on how to set one up, we are putting a new menu in to Wasabi wallet to let you easily choose a different coordinator, we are starting development on decentralized coordinators, etc."

[dkbit98]

Here is a fork of Wasabi Wallet called https://chaincase.app/, which is available on iOS and which is running its own coordinator.

I never heard about this fork and I am checking it out now, but real bad thing is having wallet that only works on iOS devices :/
Desktop version is probably more complicated to make, but I don't know why there is no Android version, this is just a fork after all, how hard can it be.
I am sure originally Wasabi wallet will still work fine with some tweaks, but this could sadly mean much less volume and much less privacy.

[witcher_sense]

Well, they only need to cooperate in this sense to have the blockchain analysis entity feed them data about which UTXO's to block. But as I said, if they cooperate like this then it won't be long before that cooperation becomes a two way street, with them feeding data back to the blockchain analysis entity.

nopara73 has just admitted they would hire a blockchain surveillance company to analyze every single UTXO that join to participate in a CoinJoin transactions.



https://t.me/WasabiWallet/63992

I've heard that wallet before, but does anyone know how often CoinJoin process happen? Waiting few days for single CoinJoin isn't practical.

I don't know much about this coordinator, but I know that the maximum anonset per round is 6 whereas in default Wasabi coordinator you can achieve an anonset of 100.

Here is an old tweet with screenshots: https://twitter.com/HillebrandMax/status/1303034788920668161

[o_e_l_e_o]

-snip-

Wow. This is horrendous. Wasabi actively paying blockchain analysis companies. That's definitely where I want my coinjoin fees to be going - straight to a blockchain analysis company. I love paying other people to spy on me.

Everyone should be uninstalling Wasabi now. You'd be an idiot not to. In other news, 30% off all Samourai whirlpool fees for the next week using the code WASABI_REFUGEES.

[suchmoon]

"anal company" sounds about right. Lovely that he's calling it censorship and making it sound like there is no other way. Spread your cheeks comrades.

Or just don't use Wasabi.

[n0nce]

And all this with a webpage like that:

...
Reclaim your privacy now
...

Contrast with reality:

nopara73 has just admitted they would hire a blockchain surveillance company to analyze every single UTXO that join to participate in a CoinJoin transactions.



https://t.me/WasabiWallet/63992

[pooya87]

Developers of privacy enhancing tool should not even mention anti-privacy companies let alone hire them! They're essentially funding the enemy of the privacy. Who knows what else they are doing.

On some serious note, have any experts actually checked Wasabi source code and the implementation of CoinJoin in the past? Or are people just trusting the popularity and having the source without reading it?

[Pmalek]

Another one bites the dust!

In that list of illegal activities, there is no mention of mixing your coins with ChipMixer and than performing CoinJoins with Wasabi. But since they are now cooperating with anal alpinist, I mean blockchain analysis companies, it's better to abandon the service and look for alternative solutions.

I think that's one of the reasons Satoshi actually disappeared. If you've got a centralized team, no matter how decentralized your software is, governments will have a weak spot to put pressure on and they'll sooner or later have to cave in.

I think he decided to disappear after he found out that Gavin Andresen was invited by the CIA to discuss Bitcoin. Satoshi was in contact with Gavin and they discussed the protocol until Gavin told him he is meeting up with the CIA. That's when all the communication between the two stopped. Gavin mentioned that somewhere. The negative spotlight that was put on Bitcoin due to the Silk Road marketplace was also a factor. 

[n0nce]

I think that's one of the reasons Satoshi actually disappeared. If you've got a centralized team, no matter how decentralized your software is, governments will have a weak spot to put pressure on and they'll sooner or later have to cave in.

I think he decided to disappear after he found out that Gavin Andresen was invited by the CIA to discuss Bitcoin. Satoshi was in contact with Gavin and they discussed the protocol until Gavin told him he is meeting up with the CIA. That's when all the communication between the two stopped. Gavin mentioned that somewhere. The negative spotlight that was put on Bitcoin due to the Silk Road marketplace was also a factor. 

That's very interesting insight, thanks! Definitely makes sense.

Everyone should be uninstalling Wasabi now. You'd be an idiot not to. In other news, 30% off all Samourai whirlpool fees for the next week using the code WASABI_REFUGEES.

I was going to complaint that Samourai Wallet only available for Android, then i found out Whirlpool is separate software and available on Desktop.

I always had the same issue with it (I prefer desktop software), but Whirlpool for the desktop requires you to install Java, which I'm not particularly fond of. They should maybe package it with the binary or something like that; for now I'll give it a pass.

[ABCbits]

I was going to complaint that Samourai Wallet only available for Android, then i found out Whirlpool is separate software and available on Desktop.

I always had the same issue with it (I prefer desktop software), but Whirlpool for the desktop requires you to install Java, which I'm not particularly fond of. They should maybe package it with the binary or something like that; for now I'll give it a pass.

They have AppImage which should bundle all dependency (including Java). But what's your problem with Java? If you don't want install closed source software, you could install OpenJDK.

[n0nce]

I was going to complaint that Samourai Wallet only available for Android, then i found out Whirlpool is separate software and available on Desktop.

I always had the same issue with it (I prefer desktop software), but Whirlpool for the desktop requires you to install Java, which I'm not particularly fond of. They should maybe package it with the binary or something like that; for now I'll give it a pass.

They have AppImage which should bundle all dependency (including Java). But what's your problem with Java? If you don't want install closed source software, you could install OpenJDK.

Honestly, a few things. Besides me not liking the language and the program running in a VM instead of bare-metal being less efficient, whenever I started using programs that depended on Java in the past, it ended up in desaster. Some programs required different versions than others, then some versions interfered with each other; uninstalling Java also didn't go cleanly all the time - this sort of stuff.
But I'll try the 'AppImage' then. Thanks!

[PrivacyG]

nopara73 has just admitted they would hire a blockchain surveillance company to analyze every single UTXO that join to participate in a CoinJoin transactions.

Wow, excuse my language but what the actual fuck.  I hope they are going broke now, because this is crazy and this is one reason we never have peace from governments.  Because of these suckers who would rather continue earning money by bending knees than continue to support the ideas Wasabi was created out of.

I specifically used Wasabi to AVOID blockchain analysis companies messing up with my stuff.  Why the hell would I ever use Wasabi again when I know using it means literally being part of an analysis from now on?

Fuck that.  This is why we need a hundred-percent decentralized and open source mechanism of mixing.  I keep seeing suggestions for Samourai's Whirlpool, but is it better than Wasabi really or could it be yet another honeypot?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[pooya87]

Is "Samourai wallet" really the alternative to go to? I remember it also having some controversy. A small one was that it used to send (maybe it still does) user's xpubs to their servers whereas it only needs to send the address(es) that need be updated.
They harassed G. Maxwell for pointing it out too ref
They've apparently harassed others too ref.

In any case I believe both Wasabi and Samourai wallets are unpopular and unreveiwed softwares (despite what it may look like from their community). They both have some degree of shadiness which is not something you want in a privacy oriented software!

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Thinking realistically — it's not going to stop. And yea, I'm pretty sure it's either due to government intervention or that they're taking extra safety precautions because they expect the government to interfere.

You mean think very, very cynically--and to be honest I'm not even sure at this point what the difference is between being cynical and being realistic, what with all the BS politicians and the media get away with.

I'm not familiar with Wasabi (though I've heard the name before) or coinjoin.  Is Wasabi a centralized wallet, like a web wallet?  And I'm assuming coinjoin is a feature they offer.  In any case, there could indeed be pressure from a government agency or it could just be them being proactive, anticipating that sooner or later they'll fall smack dab in the center of the microscope slide. 

I'm not saying Russia has any grounds for invading Ukraine, but when I watch the news (any news from any station), they're not-so-subtly giving everyone the hint that there's only one way to think about this situation.  And what do you know?  I just saw there's a series from 2019 being promoted (The Last Czar) which is apparently all about Russia's history of autocracy/dictatorship/whatever.  That's got to be a coincidence, I'm sure.

[witcher_sense]

Is "Samourai wallet" really the alternative to go to? I remember it also having some controversy. A small one was that it used to send (maybe it still does) user's xpubs to their servers whereas it only needs to send the address(es) that need be updated.
They harassed G. Maxwell for pointing it out too ref
They've apparently harassed others too ref.

In any case I believe both Wasabi and Samourai wallets are unpopular and unreveiwed softwares (despite what it may look like from their community). They both have some degree of shadiness which is not something you want in a privacy oriented software!

Samourai Wallet is not a good alternative to Wasabi Wallet and never has been because:
1) Samourai Wallet knows everything about your transactions since all the addresses and public keys go through their server. If you connect to their trusted node, it only gives you a false sense of security and privacy due to the fact that everything is already exposed to their server, and their node does nothing but simply relaying transactions. I think they can easily demix you because they will know your incoming and outgoing transactions. [1]
2) They constantly lie about their wallet being reproducible while in fact, it is not, which was checked and proved many times. In my opinion, if it is not reproducible, it is closed-sourced and probably malicious. [2]
3) Their sockpuppets are attacking Giacomo Zucco just for the fact that when talking about CoinJoin implementations in his famous article regarding privacy, he put Samourai after Wasabi and JoinMarket. Clearly, he should have mentioned it first to not offend and hurt feelings of Samourai developers! [3][4]


[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9r9344/comment/e8fm1v8/
[2] https://walletscrutiny.com/android/com.samourai.wallet/
[3] https://t.me/nobullshitbitcoin/2615?comment=14516
[4] https://giacomozucco.com/a-treatise-on-bitcoin-and-privacy-part-1-a-match-made-in-the-whitepaper

[Wind_FURY]

The default Wasabi Wallet coordinator will start censoring "illegal" UTXOs

It FAILED to live up to Bitcoin's ethos. But how would developers mitigate this in the next iteration of the "next Wasabi"? Or what other alternatives can be built, using another path, to protect and preserve Bitcoin's fungibility? Offchain layer with Zero-Knowledge Proofs perhaps? Is that possible?

[ABCbits]

In any case I believe both Wasabi and Samourai wallets are unpopular and unreveiwed softwares (despite what it may look like from their community). They both have some degree of shadiness which is not something you want in a privacy oriented software!

There aren't many alternatives though. Besides those two, i only could think JoinMarket.

I'm not familiar with Wasabi (though I've heard the name before) or coinjoin.  Is Wasabi a centralized wallet, like a web wallet?

Wasabi is non-custodial wallet. You also have option to connect Wasabi to your own full node.